What constitues a motoring offence and how does one fight it.
Last year I was rightly convicted of speeding on the M23 on the way down to Brighton, doing a recorded 81 mph - however I have now been sent a 2nd notification of conviction for speeding on the same road - but it was registered at 72 MPH, now I use my TOMTOM as I feel it gives a more accurate speed, it stated 70mph - whats the likelihood of fighting this and having it thrown out ?
I always thought there was at least a 5% leeway ? apparantly not, so beware in Sussex
Also I have been photographed "parked or stopped on a pedestrain crossing or crosssing area marked by zigzags" in a road in Houslow. - yes I was in this road, and yes I was stopped, but the engine was still on and I had pulled over to allow a lorry through, this took him quite some time due to its size - but how can I prove it ?
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>>
>> What constitues a motoring offence and how does one fight it.
>>
>> Last year I was rightly convicted of speeding on the M23 on the way down
>> to Brighton, doing a recorded 81 mph - however I have now been sent a
>> 2nd notification of conviction for speeding on the same road - but it was registered
>> at 72 MPH, now I use my TOMTOM as I feel it gives a more
>> accurate speed, it stated 70mph - whats the likelihood of fighting this and having it
>> thrown out ?
At that speed - 72? getting it thrown out? quite good I would think. Take that one to court and argue that your GPS said 70mph, and that the range of error on the camera/gun/ is at least 2mph.
>> I always thought there was at least a 5% leeway ? apparantly not, so
>> beware in Sussex
They normally won't prosecute unless you are 10%+2mph over - so 79 and above is the point they nick you,
>>
>> Also I have been photographed "parked or stopped on a pedestrain crossing or crosssing area
>> marked by zigzags" in a road in Houslow. - yes I was in this road,
>> and yes I was stopped, but the engine was still on and I had pulled
>> over to allow a lorry through, this took him quite some time due to its
>> size - but how can I prove it ?
This is probably the local council? again argue this one all the way through stating you were not stopped, merely held up by an obstruction. As you were int he car and they can't prove otherwise you can get that one chucked out too
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I agree with Zero. 72 is just taking it and there's no way they can convict you. And give that council very short shrift. Ask it if it's got anything more interesting to photograph than people driving about quite legally.
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>> speeding on the M23 on the way down to Brighton ... registered at 72 MPH >>
How were you caught?
Are you sure it was a 70mph limit?
In any case, the "5% leeway" is an unofficial guideline, it is not the Law.
>> photographed "parked or stopped on a pedestrain crossing or crosssing area marked by zigzags" in a road in Houslow. >>
It will be a miracle if you can get that anti-car Labour run council to waive the fine.
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>> if you can get that anti-car Labour run council to waive the fine.
Yes, Hounslow are fiends. But I got them to sod off once by pointing out that they had used a cropped photo to show me putting a wheel in a bus lane, completely concealing the line of traffic waiting to turn right that made it necessary.
Damn snivelling carphounds. If you pay them I'll never speak to you again.
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I got done by a bus lane camera a couple of weeks back. Pulled in to a totally empty bus lane to let a blues and twos police car by.
Never again.
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www.speed-trap.co.uk/Accused_Home/SpeedVSFines/SpeedVSFines.htm
Scroll down this page and you will see that the ACCPO "guidelines" suggest that the threshold for a penalty in a 70 limit is 79 mph, which confirms Zero's calculation.
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>> I got done by a bus lane camera a couple of weeks back. Pulled in
>> to a totally empty bus lane to let a blues and twos police car by.
>>
>> Never again.
You've got a 'Notice to Owner' from the Council? Don't just pay, appeal. Your representations will be considered by a senior officer in the council. If they reject you can appeal to an independent Tribunal.
Even if entering the bus lane to make way for an emergency vehicle is not covered by the bus lane order you should get off on basis that enforcement is unreasonable in the circs.
Only thing you're gambling with is the right to pay the half rate ticket offered for a fast guilty plea.
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I got done by a bus lane camera a couple of weeks back. Pulled in
>> to a totally empty bus lane to let a blues and twos police car by.
Which might be countered by the question as to why you didn't stay where you were and let the police car overtake you in the bus lane?
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>>Which might be countered by the question as to why you didn't stay where you were and let the police car overtake you in the bus lane?
They were coming down the middle of the road and hindsight is 20:20
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If you pay them I'll never speak to you again.
>>
>>
Is that a promise?
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>> on the M23 ... I have now been sent a
>> 2nd notification of conviction for speeding ...
>> at 72 MPH
- Was it an average speed camera set up, or the gatso type? I've often wondered if the 10% + 2mph would be applied to average speed.
- Was it definitely a 70 limit?
About 20 years ago a friend was done for 79 on the M62 east of the A1. That's still the lowest I've heard of anybody being done for on a motorway in a 70 limit. 72 wouldn't be zealous, it would be moronic.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 24 Mar 12 at 07:21
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thanks for the responses so far.
AFAIK even in a transit van, under (2 tons) , the section between Hickstead and Brighton, even when it goes down to dual carriageway it is still NSL -If anyone knows the area, there's a garage on the RHS , (on downwards journey), and it was the bridge before that.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 24 Mar 12 at 17:26
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Wotspur,
Am I reading this correctly ie that you were in a Transit? In that case I think NSL for a dual carriageway is 60 - goods vehicle up to 7.5tonnes. The two tonne point applies to 'car derived vans'.
www.smartdriving.co.uk/Driving/DefensiveDriving/Speed/UK_Speed_limits.html
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 24 Mar 12 at 08:45
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An acquaintance was pulled while driving a council transit at just over 70 on a local NSL dual carriageway. He was less than impressed when I commented that I didn't realise the council worked that fast and he did not realise that the limit was 60 for that van. It must have been near home time. This was some years ago and the council vans now have limit stickers on the dashboard and rear doors.
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There was a bloke on my speed awareness course who said he had been a van driver all his life and had never heard of the limit for vans being 60 on NSL duals or 50 on singles. When he was assured it was, he went on to say that in practice it wasn't because the cameras can't tell what sort of van you're in...!
He was the only person on the course to say he didn't think he'd learned anything - you do wonder how some people's brains are wired up.
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>>.....he had been a van driver all his life and had never heard of the limit for vans being 60 on NSL duals or 50 on singles.
>>
IIRC it something to do with "car dirived vans". I always found it strange that the Ford Transit Connect was just over the weight limit- strange marketing approach.
I suspect their are loads more mini white van men unaware of the speed limits.
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Transit Connect isn't a car derived van according to the SAC trainer, so would be subject to the lower limits anyway.
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>> There was a bloke on my speed awareness course ......
Manatee,
I turned down a speed awareness course on the basis of the cost ~ £85 ~ and the inconvenience ~ 74 miles round trip and a course duration of 4 hours. I think they chose the venue so that I would have passed a speed camera. I wonder what the penalty would have been for being caught speeding on the way to a speed awareness course!!
What was the cost, round trip, and duration of your course?
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>>What was the cost, round trip, and duration of your course?
£85, and a choice of Watford or Hatfield if you are done in Hertfordshire. Watford is only a few miles from the office so I chose that. It was nominally four hours, starting at 8.30, but finished a bit early. There were dire warnings about being late, but the guys were quite reasonable. They delayed the start for nearly 10 minutes to give the stragglers a chance, 2 turned up in that period but the one who came in breathless at 9.30 was sent away - at minimum another £85 if they allow her to re-book, or fine and points.
IIRC the website said if you lived elsewhere you could arrange to attend one nearer to where you lived, with a different authority/provider.
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>> 96 quid round here
>>
At least you have the option, we don't.
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>> At least you have the option, we don't.
They force you to speed? Harsh.
:)
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>> They force you to speed? Harsh.
But fair.
Those roads are lovely! A country with 5 million people, most of them corralled in the central belt, and the size of England. All I need to do is persuade her and I'd be there like a shot.
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>> >> They force you to speed? Harsh.
>>
>> But fair.
>>
>> Those roads are lovely! A country with 5 million people, most of them corralled in
>> the central belt, and the size of England. All I need to do is persuade
>> her and I'd be there like a shot.
>>
:-)))))))))))))))))
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>> >> 96 quid round here
>> >>
>>
>> At least you have the option, we don't.
>>
Missed the edit.
tinyurl.com/7o9htkx
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>> I think NSL for a dual carriageway is 60 - goods vehicle up to 7.5tonnes.
>> The two tonne point applies to 'car derived vans'.
Absolutely right, but motorway is 70mph. Wasn't he on the M23, or have I lost the plot again?
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>> Absolutely right, but motorway is 70mph. Wasn't he on the M23, or have I lost
>> the plot again?
>>
I read the OP as being M23 but Wotspur's 08:11 post refers to 'between Hickstead and Brighton' which I think is A23 - the M/way ends after Gatquick.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 24 Mar 12 at 09:42
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ACPO guidelines are just that ~ guidelines. tinyurl.com/7fdr5uj
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Loss of plot. :-) Read wotspurs 08:11 post.
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>> Loss of plot. :-) Read wotspurs 08:11 post.
>>
I have had to check a map - yes it's A road, so he's bang to rights as I read it - Rule 123.
Unless it's a car derived van <=2.0 tonnes MLW, it's a goods vehicle <=7.5 tonnes MLW so limit 60mph.
You haven't been on a speed awareness course recently have you Wotspur ;-)
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>> Also I have been photographed "parked or stopped on a pedestrain crossing or crosssing area
>> marked by zigzags" in a road in Houslow. - yes I was in this road,
>> and yes I was stopped, but the engine was still on and I had pulled
>> over to allow a lorry through, this took him quite some time due to its
>> size - but how can I prove it ?
I have a doubt about this one. Parking (but not stopping) within the zig-zags is an offence under general traffic regs. It's not a parking matter like yellow lines. There's quite a bit of stuff on the web that suggests Councils are not responsible for enforcing - it's a Police matter. Might be worth combing peppi-poo or Appeal Now! for more info.
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>>
>> >> Also I have been photographed "parked or stopped on a pedestrain crossing or crosssing
>> area
>> >> marked by zigzags" in a road in Houslow. - yes I was in this
>> road,
>> >> and yes I was stopped, but the engine was still on and I had
>> pulled
>> >> over to allow a lorry through, this took him quite some time due to
>> its
>> >> size - but how can I prove it ?
>>
>> I have a doubt about this one.
Bit more research suggests they acquired right to enforce zigs at same time as double parkling etc. Still might be worth OP looking at appeals though.
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Wotspur, you led us up the garden path about what the road is, you led us the same path by ignoring the fact you were in a van, ignored earlier posts, you got no chance of getting off this with that level of awareness. Second speeder in a year? Not suprised, my money is on you being banned under rotting up within the next 18 months unless you sharpen up
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>> Wotspur, you led us up the garden path about what the road is, you led
>> us the same path by ignoring the fact you were in a van, ignored earlier
>> posts, you got no chance of getting off this with that level of awareness. Second
>> speeder in a year? Not suprised, my money is on you being banned under rotting
>> up within the next 18 months unless you sharpen up
>>
I suspect the penny has dropped big time that he doesn't know his speed limits. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 24 Mar 12 at 11:00
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>> Rotting Up ?!
>>
Just Zero trying to be a smart pfd. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 24 Mar 12 at 11:12
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Ruddy iPhone autocorrect
Posted in bright spring sunshine at Oldfield Park station
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 24 Mar 12 at 11:20
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>> Ruddy iPhone autocorrect
>>
>> Posted in bright spring sunshine at Oldfield Park station
>>
You are definitely forgiven if your finger trouble is down to making a steam video. :-)
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>> I have a doubt about this one. Parking (but not stopping) within the zig-zags is
>> an offence under general traffic regs. It's not a parking matter like yellow lines. There's
>> quite a bit of stuff on the web that suggests Councils are not responsible for
>> enforcing - it's a Police matter. Might be worth combing peppi-poo or Appeal Now! for
>> more info.
>>
tinyurl.com/7663b9w
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 24 Mar 12 at 17:27
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After yesterday I`m nominating Cumbria! - narrow single width connecting road blocked by a Police riot van and a Police car, (doing a "Bust" on one of the local "Hard-men`s detached Garden) so I mounts the pavement on my pushbike so that I could cycle past. Spare "Plod" (sat in van) jumps out and stops me, gives me telling off for riding on the footpath! - to cut a long story shorter, when I realised I couldn`t get past I should have dismounted and "walked" it past the obstruction. Apart from a few "Gawkers" hanging over their backyard gates the pavement was empty!
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Yes guys , looks like I don't know the rules and am bang to rights, didnt realise a M and A road would be different for a Transit van that ii am driving, which is a hire van - very surprised its not got the limits on the dashboard...... I assume the A3 which between Claygate -Guildford is despite 3 lanes, is still only an A road... Wow I've been well lucky for years, as that's the case. whilst they're the rules don't see why a transit and a 4x4 or similar is different allowances
As for the zigzags I'll revisit the location, without stopping to pull over, before deciding what to do.
Re my driving record 30 years driving, over 750,000 miles driven, 2SP 30's in that time, both 15 years+ years ago, then these two on the same road in 15 months. Shame it was a camera and not a police car, they'd have explained the situation
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 24 Mar 12 at 17:27
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Don't worry wotspur none of us are perfect.Live is a bitch.>:)
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>> Yes guys , looks like I don't know the rules and am bang to rights
I don't think you're the only one. At least you know you weren't done for the sake of 2mph!
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I used to get done for 90mph fair cop.I hate those blue flashing lights.
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Don't worry too much wotspur, judging by the van speeds on our local NSL dual carriageway 90% of van drivers don't know the van speed limits.
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Well guysI decided that paying the fine for the Stopping, NOT PARKING ,was easier for me, aggro and timewise, and could be put against costs anyway. !
The speeding notification on 14/03/12 - is another matter- Sussex Police contacted the van hire compnay for my details, they in turn sent them to Sussex police or I assume they did, as they did with Hounslow council for the parking contravention, since then Ive not received any correspondance , from either the Police or the van hire company - do I contact them and tell them, or hope they've decided not to proceed
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>> since then Ive not received any correspondance , >>
What more are you expecting from them?
What did their last notification tell you you had to do next?
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The initial correspondance from the "Sussex safer roads" 16/03/2012 said "do not pay this fine at present, you will receive notification directly from the issuing authority.
This was initially sent to the company from who I have hired it from - they sent me an invoice for dealing with this on 21st 03 2012.
Since then Ive heard nothing from anyone -
"so what was I expecting" ?? probably a notification of prosecution, to pay a fine or the opportunity to go to court.... I dunno but just expected something - or do I assume that they're not going to do anything ? Is there a time limit
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This is like pulling teeth.
In your first post, you said: " ... I have now been sent a ... notification of conviction for speeding ... "
now you say:
>> The initial correspondance from the "Sussex safer roads" 16/03/2012 said "do not pay this fine at present, you will receive notification directly from the issuing authority. >>
Notification, conviction, fine, ? ?
What was it? Can you tell us the full details of what it was that you initially received?
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>> .............. so I mounts the pavement on my pushbike so that I could cycle
>> past.
Highway Code rule 64. tinyurl.com/ypo5vl
You MUST NOT cycle on a pavement.
[Laws HA 1835 sect 72 & R(S)A 1984, sect 129]
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If ignorance of the law is no excuse there are a lot of ignorant cyclists, in London at least! About time they had number plates, compulsory insurance and ANPR cameras covering the pavements - that'll quell the Lycra Louts
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>> If ignorance of the law is no excuse there are a lot of ignorant cyclists,
>> in London at least! About time they had number plates, compulsory insurance and ANPR cameras
>> covering the pavements - that'll quell the Lycra Louts
>>
We have to put up with young lads on basic bmx bikes which have no brakes cycling furiously and weaving in and out of pedestrians on the pavement. To slow down or stop they have to press their foot on the ground!
I know they've got no brakes whatsoever because I've had a good look at them when they've been stationary.
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>> young lads on basic bmx bikes
You remind me of the stunt nippers in my old manor in North Kensington, a multicoloured gang of 8-16 year olds who used to come down both sides of Ladbroke Grove in rush hour, on the roads and on the pavements, whooping and hollering and putting the fear of God into flinching vehicle drivers. They were fabulous and I miss them down here in the sticks.
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Wotspur,
What fixed penalty (if any) are you being offered for the zig-zag offence?
If done by a copper, it's a fine and three points.
So if you are being offered just a fine, it might be worth taking it on the chin.
You will feel a crushing sense of injustice, but you can always moan about that on here and to anyone else who will listen.
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Oiks on bikes!
Last edited by: Roger on Sat 24 Mar 12 at 22:52
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>>I know they've got no brakes whatsoever because I've had a good look at them when they've been stationary.
They may have rear brakes activated by pushing the pedals backwards.
Or it may be the fashion, similar to having no laces in yer trainers, or (a first for me - seen earlier today) wearing braces but having them hanging down over yer bum rather than over your shoulders.
Here's how 'the look' works:
www.rockstyle.co.uk/graphics/detail_images/sugar_ray-1200-02.jpg
Made me chuckle. A lot.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Sat 24 Mar 12 at 21:28
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>> They may have rear brakes activated by pushing the pedals backwards.
On a BMX? Doubt it. A few years ago they went through a phase when they didn't even have saddles. I mean they were actually built that way, no hole to put the saddle in; one of stepson's friends had one. How cool is that? :)
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>> >>I know they've got no brakes whatsoever because I've had a good look at them
>> when they've been stationary.
>>
>> They may have rear brakes activated by pushing the pedals backwards.
>>
I know what a back-pedal brake hub looks like, and they definitely didn't have one.
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'I have a doubt about this one. Parking (but not stopping) within the zig-zags is an offence under general traffic regs. It's not a parking matter like yellow lines. There's quite a bit of stuff on the web that suggests Councils are not responsible for enforcing - it's a Police matter. Might be worth combing peppi-poo or Appeal Now! for more info. '
Parking on the approach to a zebra crossing is endorsable HOWEVER if your area has abandonded Traffic Wardens in favour of Civil Enforcement many parking offences have been de-criminalised and cannot be dealt with by the Police. However parking on zebra crossings can be dealt with either by the Civil Enforcement (Nil Points) or by the Police (3 Points)
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talking of police, what would happen if you got pulled by the police and he noticed you had a
bald tyre, instant 3 points and a fine? do they let you drive off afterwards or would they nick you again?
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When it happened to a friend of mine, they made him fit the (legal) spare there and then.
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zero, by doing that wont his now spare be illegal? the one he took off to replace with the legal one? the cop could do him now for having an illegal spare surely?
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Illegal spare is not an offence. NOt covered by the construction or use regs, only when its fitted to one of the axles does it come into play.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 13 Apr 12 at 12:57
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>> Illegal spare is not an offence. NOt covered by the construction or use regs, only
>> when its fitted to one of the axles does it come into play.
>>
Correct; and logical if you think about it. Otherwise you'd still be breaking the law after you changed the tyre.
Defective (or even flat) spare is AFAIK an MOT fail though.
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>>Defective (or even flat) spare is AFAIK an MOT fail though.
Not unless something's changed recently. What I've got in my boot is no concern whatsoever to an MOT tester.
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Westmoreland? A few trips up and down the motorway often showed police cars waiting on the bridges and I believe this force is very hot on speeding.
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"What I've got in my boot is no concern whatsoever to an MOT tester."
Correct spare tyre is not within the remit of the MOT test .
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can one use the skinny spare during the MOT test or would it effect the brake test in any way?
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>> can one use the skinny spare during the MOT test or would it effect the
>> brake test in any way?
>>
Would have thought that you would be required to have the same tyre size on each axle
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From the MOT testers manual:
Reason for rejection
This inspection applies to
Tyres fitted to the road wheels only. The vehicle presenter should be informed when it is noticed that there is a defective tyre on a spare wheel.
1a. One tyre is of a different nominal size or aspect ratio to any other on the same axle.
b. Special lightweight or space saving wheels and tyres fitted as road wheels
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Glad of 1a the X1 has 220s on the front and 225s on the back.
Glad also that North Wales Police are no longer considered a "zealous" Police Force, Brunstrom has long gone sailing his boat to the Caribbean when last heard of, no-one knows the name of the new Chief Constable.
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>Brunstrom has long gone sailing his boat to the Caribbean when last heard of..
We're off there on the 23rd.
If I see him I'll cut his lines loose.
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Which police force is most zealous - Zero
