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Interesting comments Dog.Town driving stick to petrol.Lots of motorway driving use diesel.Or is this to simplistic?
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My father had a VW Jetta the Golf with the boot.I got the car after my dad died.The car was five years.I kept it going for ten years.The car drove on LPG and petrol.I used to go to filling stations where they sold gas bottles to fill up with LPG.No major petrol outlet around here sold LPG.
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>>My father had a VW Jetta the Golf with the boot.I got the car after my dad died.>>
I have a VW Jetta Sports 170 (1.4 168bhp petrol TSi). Usefully quick (0-62 in eight seconds, around 42-43mpg and capable of 140mph); small engine means non-nose heavy and sharper steering compared to a diesel. Fuel consumption is about midway between a standard petrol and diesel engine equivalents, but far more fun overall to drive.
Golf GT equivalent: www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/67063/volkswagen_golf_gt.html
Last edited by: Stuartli on Wed 16 May 12 at 15:04
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Its this one in particular that 'caught my eye' Dutchie:
"This article appears to only consider the first owner. For the second owner, the cost premium for a diesel car has reduced but the saving in fuel due to their greater efficiency has not, hence diesels make more sense for even modest mileages. Also no mention of engine life - I understood that even a complex diesel engine would far outlast the equivalent powered petrol engine. Petrol powered cars should depreciate far quicker than diesel equivalents. I'd buy a 100,000 mile diesel, but not the equivalent petrol engined vehicle".
Its only the Dutch that can afford to buy new cars in this country!
:}
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Rubbish Dog,Holland is in a recession we be like the Greeks asking for a bail out.>:)
Diesels should last.I like the diesel we got about 55 miles to the gallon,town driving.
I put the BP super stuff in engine seem to like it.
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>>Rubbish Dog,Holland is in a recession we be like the Greeks asking for a bail out<<
Hehe! - The way things are going Dutchie, we'll all be asking for a bail out before long.
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The comment about diesel engines' longevity compared to petrols doesn't really stand up. The commenter said that most diesel engines are the same as petrol units but with a different head and pistons. Not true, diesel has a compression ratio 4 times as great as petrol, that's why the engines are constructed more robustly.
I would expect any petrol engine from the last decade or so to last 200,000 miles, and any diesel to do 300,000 without needing the kind of restorative mechanical work that was common at 30k miles 30 years ago. The rest of the car wears out before the engine these days.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Wed 16 May 12 at 10:51
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the article makes the assumption that the moment you drive a diesel car off the forecourt youd get high mpg.
the rio diesel started out at an average of 46mpg per tank and then gradually rose to 51 - 55mpg per tank after about 10000 miles.
im just saying that no one seems to mention that you wil not get instant high mpg until everything is bedded in.
i will bear this in mind when buying a nearly new car in the future
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I read the article. A cold petrol engine drinks fuel. A diesel does : but far less. Lots of short journeys = diesel best.
Wot's a DPF?
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Dave_TDCI is spot on with his comments on engine life. Barring neglect / cambelt failure, most modern engines, petrol or diesel, go on pretty much forever if half looked after thanks to modern oils and precise fuelling/ monitoring of operating conditions.
The car is more likely to fall apart or become thoroughly worn out before the engine needs serious attention.
The only real concern is the eye watering cost of some fuel system components such as high pressure fuel pumps and injectors. These are by and large troublefree, but if you are unlucky, the cost of repair could render a 10 year old car an economic write-off without too much difficulty. Remember, physically replacing faulty components isn't enough on modern systems, and you need electronic tweakery with sophisticated equipment to set the car or new part up afterwards.
Of course, prices for these things fall over time as technology evolves, so what we see now may not be the case in 10 years.
Last edited by: DP on Wed 16 May 12 at 12:10
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I think the technology is already there.Would cars still have that many problems if it was left to the engineers?Maybe someting to do with marketing it has to breakdown.
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"...prices for these things fall over time as technology evolves..."
I agree. However, there's a big "but" in the case of diesels. Emission controls get ever stricter and new technology has to be developed to deal with that. So, while some components may fall in price, it seems there will always be newer stuff that's relatively expensive.
So nitrous oxide control as per Euro VI emission standards (due to take effect in 2013) is the next thing. I'm no expert, but I'm assuming that something new is being developed to deal with this and I suspect it will be expensive.
I gave up on diesel last year, despairing at the costs of dealing with particulate filter systems. Fortunately my annual mileage dropped considerably at the beginning of 2011. The 2-litre petrol Focus is quite a nice drive!
Last edited by: FocalPoint on Wed 16 May 12 at 12:26
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>> I gave up on diesel last year, despairing at the costs of dealing with particulate
>> filter systems.
I think quite a few of us have come to the same conclusion, and will be going back to petrol when we next replace if we already haven't.
My next will most likely be a Toyota/Lexus Hybrid, or another petrol with LPG conversion.
If i do buy another Diesel it will be cheap enough to throw away if anything serious goes wrong.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Wed 16 May 12 at 12:33
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>> >> I gave up on diesel last year, despairing at the costs of dealing with
>> particulate
>> >> filter systems.
>>
>> I think quite a few of us have come to the same conclusion, and will
>> be going back to petrol when we next replace if we already haven't.
>>
After 30 odd years of diesels my next car will be petrol powered, the mixed use my car gets is ideal for he current diesels but not for a DPF fitted one.
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I stumbled across the BBA Reman forum a while ago while looking for something or other on the interweb. It's by and large a forum for professional mechanics / technicians, and the problems forum gives a very good insight into just how terrifying modern cars, and particularly diesels are when they go wrong.
I take my hat off to these guys. The expertise of some of them on there is staggering.
Anyhow, I really wouldn't want to own one of these when they get old, wiring starts to corrode, and perhaps water starts getting in where it shouldn't. You don't have a hope without £,000s worth of diagnostic kit and a heck of a lot of experience and knowledge of how to use it, and correctly interpret the information it provides.
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^
And that is why I am on my first and last Diesel. I love the torque and I love my 130 PD TDI but with DPFs, urea additives on the way, the use of complicated VGT turbos (already had a turbo failure at 35K thankfully mostly covered by Skoda goodwill) and complicated injection systems, Dual Mass flywheels ( they fail more on Diesels because of the torque), higher list price and the cost of fuel combined with the miliage I do.
I think high tech downsized petrols are the answer medium term. I was seriously impressed wtih the 1.0 Focus but it's fuel economy was nowhere near what the manufacturers claim. I still think this or a 1.4 TSi Golf would be better suited to my needs than another oil burner sorry.
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I understand that Toyota are moving away from diesel development in small/medium cars- simply because the cost of Euro VI technology puts too big a price disadvantage onto the diesel. Presumably why they are forging ahead with hybrid and plug-in. Although I not totally convinced of hybrid technology, it does seem to be developing into a viable alternative. Prius in particular appears to be a long lived and exceptionally reliable vehicle, and at the end of the day, 50 to 60 mpg for a car that size is competitive economy with the best diesels, if not in performance. Tales of likely hideous battery replacement cost seem to be largely unfounded and from what I read the repair costs at a few years old seem broadly comparable with modern diesels, in many ways there is less to go wrong.
It's a shame, as I am a diesel fan too, but the Euro legislation looks like it will mean diesel reverts to large truck, large car installations in the future.
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>> I understand that Toyota are moving away from diesel development in small/medium cars- simply because
>> the cost of Euro VI technology puts too big a price disadvantage onto the diesel.
>>
Toyota have announced a deal with BMW: They get BMW diesel technology, BMW get hybrid technology.
Shows how development costs and expertise needed have risen and are unaffordable on their own for all but the biggest.
The US of course have no diesel nor hybrid technology and don't care as they have some of the world's cheapest petrol
Last edited by: madf on Wed 16 May 12 at 20:16
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We will keep our PD130 Golf until it drops. No DPF to worry about, although I stumped up for a DMF and clutch last year, which thanks to a stunning voucher code deal at ECP and a good mate who is a VW tech only set me back £450 all in. Clean bill of health at the last MOT apart from early signs of the front wishbone bushes.starting to crack. Hopefully it will be good for a few years yet. Having a mate who knows the PD engine backwards helps, and means any issues shouldn't bust the bank. Hopefully. :-)
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My wife's 1.6 petrol Qashqai seems to be getting a fairly reliable 42 mpg. She does a 36 mile round trip in it most week days on busy but flowing A roads.
I think that's quite good for a medium sized petrol car. No ball of fire with only 115 bhp but it's pleasant enough to drive.
It'd make me think twice, were we replacing it, as to whether a diesel was really necessary for that sort of use.
Different for me with around 40,000 business miles a year of course. Diesel still makes a lot of sense at that level if you need a biggish car. Wouldn't discount a petrol with the economy of our Nissan though.
I do though love the torque in my car.
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What is worrying me is how much longer I am going to be able to buy a small/medium size car that has a proper torque converter auto box and not one of those hateful automated manual things, as not one of them I have driven have come anywhere near to being as good as the real thing !
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IIRC VW made a statement a few years back that they were investing heavily in new petrol engine technology because they couldn't really see that there was much more meangingful development of the derv models, and it was becoming increasingly difficult to meet the latest standards.
I fit into a bracket where either suits my need, but I prefer the torque from diesel, although I understand that these new low capacity high output petrols have good torque figures at low revs.
Last 2 cars have been leased though, and at the moment the diesel models appear to offer more favorable terms.
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>> IIRC VW made a statement a few years back that they were investing heavily in new petrol engine technology because they couldn't really see that there was much more meaningful development of the derv models, and it was becoming increasingly difficult to meet the latest
standards.
I fit into a bracket where either suits my need, but I prefer the torque from diesel, although I understand that these new low capacity high output petrols have good torque figures at low revs.>>
The 170 1.4 TSi engine I've mentioned earlier in my Jetta Sports delivers its maximum torque of 177lb ft all the way from 1,750rpm to 4,500rpm thanks to the supercharger and turbocharger. The 140 version is pretty similar performance wise.
Don't know if you've read the review in the link earlier (by the way the TSi was European Engine of the Year for at least four years), but another review states:
"This makes a flexible and inherently driveable engine with the strength to negate the need for constant gear swapping at low speeds and the top end performance that really makes you want to cut loose." You'll perhaps appreciate why I like my Jetta Sports so much...:-))
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Thats interesting Humph, as been said previously, Qashqai is definitely on my list to replace the Altea.
The 1.6 diesel gets great mpg on paper but as I am down to 12k miles max a year, and no more long driving holidays to the south of France, I would definitely consider the 1.6 petrol.
Mixed reviews on the forums though, many feel it could do with a 6th gear for motorway journeys?
I am lucky to get 42mpg in my diesel Altea.
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The manufacturers spent millions trying to make diesels have petrol like characteristics, now they are trying to make petrols like diesels, funny old world. :-)
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To be honest Bobby, I've never driven it on a motorway or even a dual carriageway. I only really drive it when we're taking the bikes on the roof or when I decide to be kind and fill it up with petrol for her !
I could imagine it being a bit frantic but I suspect, equally, quite liveable with. As a main car, if it's in budget, I might well consider the new 1.6 diesel though.
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>> I stumbled across the BBA Reman forum a while ago while looking for something or
>> other on the interweb.
I didn't know that forum existed, very interesting to peruse with lots of pointers there as to whats best to avoid, many thanks DP.
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>> I didn't know that forum existed, very interesting to peruse with lots of pointers there
>> as to whats best to avoid, many thanks DP.
Me neither until I found it by accident the other week.
Fascinating to look through, even if I only understand one word in five on most of the threads ;-)
One thing that does seem to run throughout is a loathing of French cars, particularly Renaults and Peugeots.
Last edited by: DP on Wed 16 May 12 at 21:30
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Hmm i actually like the look of the new Peugeot 208 1.2 which Autocar raved about. They reckon it will steal sales from the 1.4 Diesel as it is so light. I know the reliability of the more recent Pugs has been questionable though. I had a 1996 Pug 106 1.1 though and it never missed a beat or let me down once in 80K. Most reliable car i have owned so not all French cars are basket cases :)
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One thread I saw had a few people saying the 308 is proving itself a bit of a nightmare with engine management problems. Another was so disparaging about Renaults that I thought it might be madf moonlighting! ;-)
I was a big fan of the 80s and early 90s Pugs. Had a couple of 306s (XSi 16v and D-Turbo) and a 106 XSi, and loved them. Reliable, and brilliant to drive. Electr(on)ically very simple compared to the new stuff though. I think the French have always done mechanicals and bodywork well. Never been convinced they know how to make electrics work reliably though, and they have a habit of making them hideously complex.
The vast majority of the grief we had with our Scenic related to something with wires attached to it, or controlled by an ECU of some description. The engine was lovely.
Last edited by: DP on Wed 16 May 12 at 21:42
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>> One thread I saw had a few people saying the 308 is proving itself a
>> bit of a nightmare with engine management problems. Another was so disparaging about Renaults that
>> I thought it might be madf moonlighting! ;-)
>>
What you really mean is you were being sensible :-)
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Petrol in the U.S. has dropped by 23 cents per gallon, in 3 weeks.
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shame petrol and diesel costs have not dropped by much at all here in the UK.
Must be too many speculators forecasting the price of oil in our financial district.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 17 May 12 at 13:58
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>> So has heating oil .........
Thanks (for nothing) for reminding me about the price! I've just paid £705 for 1000 litres.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 17 May 12 at 13:59
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Crude oil prices spiked on Iran war fears. Now falling due to Euro fears and huge stock build up - and Iran does not yet have any nuclear weapons program proven....
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Iran does not yet have any nuclear weapons program proven....
>>
Don't recall Iraq having any WMD's either.
Does Iran have oil by any chance?
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>>Now falling due to Euro fears and huge stock build up<<
Plus Gaddafi's light sweet is starting to pour.
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$0.23 a US gallon is near enough 4p a litre. Diesel has gone down by 5p at the Shell I pass on the way to work.
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>> $0.23 a US gallon is near enough 4p a litre. Diesel has gone down by
>> 5p at the Shell I pass on the way to work.
Sainbury's diesel 141.9 this morning. Has been as high as 146.9.
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>> $0.23 a US gallon is near enough 4p a litre. >>
That is cruel, It reminds me of the price of petrol the first time I had the use of a car in the USA, $0.23 a gallon. As it was a 5L V8 it was a good job that HMG was picking up the tab. :-)
The exchange rate was $2.5 to the £.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 17 May 12 at 14:38
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Local filling station prices have dropped by approximately 5p a litre in the past week to 10 days - I get another 4p a litre off using a voucher from a previous purchase at a Texaco garage.
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One has become rather "aware" of these things since the arrival of the 3..
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You'd be potty to consider swapping it for a 3..pot!
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>>since the arrival of the 3..
Wot, that grey one?
:-))
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It's not grey, it's icky green:)
Pat
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Blame our high prices on tax and speculators. I read a while back of three tankers sitting in Torbay waiting for the price to go up before they were told to head to the refineries to discharge. It makes me fume. I have not a very high opinion of bankers and speculators as I am pretty left of centre but and things like this only make me feel more peeved.
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>> Blame our high prices on tax and speculators. I read a while back of three
>> tankers sitting in Torbay waiting for the price to go up before they were told
>> to head to the refineries to discharge. It makes me fume. I have not a
>> very high opinion of bankers and speculators as I am pretty left of centre but
>> and things like this only make me feel more peeved.
>>
Same at Scapa flow, several laden supertankers waited for months until the oil price went up before moving on and discharging their cargo.
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>Blame our high prices on tax and speculators.
While on holiday a couple of weeks ago, Mrs K and I became friendly with a Canadian couple. The husband is a Senior Petroleum Analyst with an international consultancy business who regularly appears on Canadian TV as an oil industry pundit.
One evening I moaned about the cost of filling up and quizzed him about his predictions for oil prices over the next five years.
1) He expects Brent to range between $90 and $140/bbl.
2) There is no shortage of oil at the moment, in fact there is a glut of the stuff. The only problem is that it's the wrong stuff.
3) The sanctions on Iran and unreliable supplies from Nigeria will seriously reduce the availability of 'light-sweet' which is the only oil that many refineries can accept. You cannot feed 'heavy-sour' into a refinery designed to take 'light-sweet'.
4) Nervousness in the markets about financial and political instability is now driving oil prices. The 'fear-factor' is adding at least $10/bbl, probably nearer $15/bbl.
Finally,
5) The biggest threat to fuel prices at the moment, is the deterioration in refinery capacity and output, not crude oil prices.
Last edited by: Kevin on Thu 17 May 12 at 20:29
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Diesel v Petrol - Dutchie
