The details of the PSA/GM alliance are becomming clearer, more's the pity.
A week or so ago it was announced that the future Vauxhall/Opel Zafira would be made by PSA. Presumably it will be a badge-engineered PSA. Today I see that the next C5 will be on the Insignia platform. Presumably it will be a badge-engineered Vauxhall and is thus unlikely to have hydro pneumatic suspension.
Whilst we have a wider range of cars on the market than ever, the differences between them are becoming far narrower, with less effective choice as a result. 'Character' in cars? Forget it. Sad really.
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it is a bit sad really as most companies want to play it safe and share development with other car makers.
i dont think its a new idea and has been going on for a while but it is happening more often.
a similar thing is happening in the aviation industry.
i do wonder if it will lead to a lack of individuality for each car maker.
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A Nissan with Renault electrics anyone?
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>> A Nissan with Renault electrics anyone?
Isn't that what comes out of Sunderland?
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Remember that PSA are struggling to make money at the moment and must be getting desperate to get new products out to market as cheaply as possible...
Renault sales are tanking (until Francois Hollande comes up with a spending plan to buy a few thousand of them); I'd expect to see rebadged Nissans as cheap-to-market new Regie models in the near future too.
Be interesting to see how the new French President tries to halt their sales decline and protect them!
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>>>> A Nissan with Renault electrics anyone?
Regrettably Nissan will no longer be considered when I get around to replacing my existing barge.
Shame really, as I would prefer to buy a car that was built in the UK.
Last edited by: Clk Sec on Wed 23 May 12 at 09:01
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The Nips teamed up with the Frogs in 1999.
I kept my 05 Almera for 4.5 years ( a long time for me!) and it never missed a beat.
Global sales of Nissan cars was 4,669,981 in 2011.
I'd buy a new Nissan tomorrow (if I had Lud's sort of money)
Last edited by: Dog on Wed 23 May 12 at 09:54
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>> Today I see that the
>> next C5 will be on the Insignia platform. Presumably it will be a badge-engineered Vauxhall
>> and is thus unlikely to have hydro pneumatic suspension.
Not sure about C5 but Xantia shared a platform, engines etc with the Pug 406 and still managed a full hydraulic suspension/brakes/steering set up.
Early C5 models had the suspension but a conventional braking system. I guess designing ever more complex ABS/ESP for HP systems with different parts etc when conventional stuff comes straight out of the parts bin becomes unviable.
AFAIK current C5 only offers HP in 'activa' form on higher level specs.
I shall be sorry to see it's passing having wanted a 'car like that' ever since seeing DS models in France c1973. When it first appeared in the fifties it offered a step change over cart springs. Nowadays sophisticated coil strut systems offer prett much similar ride standards and some at least have a self level function.
Given that many buyers see HP as complex and expensive to maintain & repair (it's not provided you don't let untrained techs monkey with it) it's days are probably numbered.
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>> Given that many buyers see HP as complex and expensive to maintain & repair (it's
>> not provided you don't let untrained techs monkey with it) it's days are probably numbered.
I would have thought it will become a casualty of the war on emissions. I don't know how much energy the hydraulic system on a Citroen needs to operate, but in we live in an age when things like alternators and even coolant pumps are being designed to operate only when needed, and conventional hydraulic power steering pumps have been deemed inefficient and all but abandoned as manufacturers chase ever lower CO2 figures.
With this in mind, this is a very easy target for a quick improvement in the figures. Fit a set of conventional springs and dampers, fit an electric PAS system, and the hydraulic pump and its energy requirements become unnecessary. A measurable improvement in the figures, for what in terms of overall design of a car, is next to no effort.
Not saying I agree, by the way. :-)
Last edited by: DP on Wed 23 May 12 at 10:41
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In some ways the "old" Xantia and earlier hydraulics were more efficient than current practice of power steering pump and abs brake assist pump. The majority of the effort supplied by the pump goes to the steering power assistance. The suspension and brakes use very little power. I suppose that diesel cars also have a vacuum pump as well to drive for brake effort.
The problem must be build costs of the system.
During the lifetime of the vehicle I would have thought that replacing a few nitrogen filled spheres is more eco-friendly than replacing much heavier spring and damper unit when they wear or break.
Total life cost (in materials) doesn't yet amount to much in vehicle calculations, though.
Last edited by: MJM on Wed 23 May 12 at 13:23
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In the high volume sector your build and development costs can not afford to be far removed from the mainstream. This inevitably means your technical choices need to be the same as the others. Citroen can't afford to be different.
Renault are tanking because they are making deeply unattractive stuff
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>> Renault are tanking because they are making deeply unattractive stuff
That, and far too many people who've owned one would rather cut off their genitals with rusty bread knife than entertain the prospect of another.
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But you can always be tempted back to a pretty but badly behaved girl.
But a badly behaved ugly old bag has no chance
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And of course the new Merc A-class will use Renault engines, and I see that the next MX5 will also be badged an Alfa-Romeo. It's getting very complicated!
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A fwd MX5: forget it!
As for Citroen, they seem to have collaborated with a lot of people: namely BMW with petrol engines and Ford for Diesels. Adding GM to the mix will make things interesting but as others have said it is a necessity these days for some.
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>> And of course the new Merc A-class will use Renault engines
Mercedes should be ashamed of themselves.
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Renault are on their pfd in the UK. A colleague has an 20 month old Megane CC, and his Mrs has a 4 year old high spec clio, both brought brand new from local dealer.
He is in the market for a new car, but will not entertain another renault due to their attitude towards problems and service. She would like a new Clio, but wont due to husbands recent experience.
While he was browsing the local VW dealer, the sales guy who sold them both of their cars approached, and gave a tale of woe. After 10 years at the same renault dealership he has just left citing that sales had become non-existent since xmas, and on a commission structure he couldn't pay his mortgage, so he left. The dealer in question is a large, city based, plate glass outfit. Its owned by a local group who own about 5 sites - 2 X renault, 1 x volvo, 1 x citroen and 1 x kia IIRC. I wonder how long they can survive unless the other brands are propping things up.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 23 May 12 at 21:17
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'Twas a belt in the solar plexus,
The Wartburg badge on my Lexus:
I realized
The marques we prized
Are in cahoots
With boring suits
In Thailand, Guam and Texas
To banjax and to hex us.
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Not a great one for poetry myself, but I rather liked that! :-)
Put me in mind of Ogden Nash.
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Lol Lud (I presume that is you in a different guise)
As for the Renault Diesel, it has been significantly re-engineered for the Mercedes. The new Renault 1.6 Diesel is supposed to be excellent as is the new 1.2 turbo petrol. Renault are not bad cars ( I would love a clio sport) but they have an iffy rep for build quality and their dealers and the manufacturer themselves are notoriously uncaring when things go wrong. I will probably stick with Skoda (new petrol VRS) as I have been well looked after by them when I have had problems. How long that will continue with their sales volumes though I don't know but when will manufacturers know that they shoot themselves in the foot with poor after sales. Citroen is another case in point though my local dealer is pretty good I hear.
Funny thing is when I took my Skoda in when the turbo blew just out of warranty the service manager said Skoda in Czech are good at coughing up but there would have been an issue with VW for the same issue. That is very odd.
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>> Funny thing is when I took my Skoda in when the turbo blew just out
>> of warranty the service manager said Skoda in Czech are good at coughing up but
>> there would have been an issue with VW for the same issue. That is very
>> odd.
I am so sorry, you will have to re-write that, Turbos do not blow. There is no issue with Turbos.
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@zero: you don't let things go do you :P
If you read my posts in the 1.0 ecoboost thread you will see that I am suspect of turbos in Diesel engines. They are more complicated than petrol turbos with variable vanes etc. I have heard of very little premature failure on PETROL engines.
My turbo was a duffer though and Skoda replaced it free of charge accordingly. Anyway this is off topic sorry...
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I've read that Renault are to sell a re-badged Nissan Juke in the near future... That'll be a looker then... NOT!!!
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"many buyers see HP as complex and expensive to maintain & repair (it's not provided you don't let untrained techs monkey with it) it's days are probably numbered."
Now here's an odd thing (at least to me!!). Having owned a couple of BXs and Xantia (all of which did well over 100k - 2 did closer to 200k) I seemed to have a pretty regular job of replacing spheres - pretty easy job even every 20k.
However, current car is another Xantia, a 2000 HDi Exclusive with 120k on the clock (SWMBO claims our other car is "hers" - and who am I to argue!?). This Xantia hasn't had a replacement sphere yet - why the difference? Only thing replaced in 12 years has been a pressure regulator - about £80 I think, though I might be wrong; it was about 4 years ago.
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>> However, current car is another Xantia, a 2000 HDi Exclusive with 120k on the
>> clock (SWMBO claims our other car is "hers" - and who am I to argue!?).
>> This Xantia hasn't had a replacement sphere yet
Did exclusive trim include 'activa' suspension?
Mine's a 2000 Hdi 110 Forte Estate at 140k. All four 'standard' spheres were replaced between 70 and 80k and are now at point where ride is firm/jiggly and probably need doing again.
The accumulator sphere & centre rear are original.
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"Did exclusive trim include 'activa' suspension"
No, I think Activas were a separate model/version, ie Xantia Activa, but not sure.
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The accumulator sphere...
I want a car with one of those! Or anything with one of those. Does it have a hermaphrodite truss flange too?
}:---)
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"Does it have a hermaphrodite truss flange too?"
Oddly enough, no. But I am sure that your needs would be satisfied by the stiffness regulator, the numerous diaphragms not to mention the height corrector which opens a valve to admit hydraulic fluid under pressure to lengthen your hydraulic strut.
Should you wish to go into further detail, there are diagrams in the article below which illustrate "soft state" and "firm state" of fluid flows in your equipment!
The sytem allows you to adjust your ride height for maximum comfort.
There is also an anti-dive mechanism but I'd better not go into that.
HTH
Phil
www.citroenet.org.uk/miscellaneous/hydraulics/hydraulics-1.html
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...admit hydraulic fluid under pressure to lengthen your hydraulic strut.
You made that one up - didn't you?
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You made that one up - didn't you?"
Nope!!
And of course you also get "an unrivalled level of excellent handling and grip"
P
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>> And of course you also get "an unrivalled level of excellent handling and grip"
>> P
>>
You certainly do. I owned an Activa once (well, twice actually). Brilliant car around the bends unless you hit a pothole mid bend, then the anti-roll stiffened suspension was very unforgiving.
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Have a look at the spheres, Phil - you will probably find they have 3 dimples around the filling nipple on the end. This shows they have multi-layer diaphragms, which were developed for the C5. They are much longer lived than the original type spheres, but were only fitted to Exclusive Xantias AFAIK, which were fitted with hydractive suspension.
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Thanks for that Richard - might have known you would know!!I seem to remember that it was the leaky diaphragms that did for the old spheres. Next time I open bonnet will look at front ones!
P
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Citroën make a much different vehicle these days.
They really have taken a step up in terms of quality. My wife's 2008 C4 GP Eu4 diesel went back in April and a new Eu5 arrived. There's now a solid clunk to the doors when they close.
Citroën have also listened to the complaint about the dipstick. Metal coil is now the shaft replacing the plastic rubbish which didn't give any clue where the actual level was. I can now take an oil level reading...
Never a blip in terms of DPF requiring out of service (return to dealer) regeneration which leaves me asking a question about the quality of fuel sold in the UK. This car has done exactly the kind of journeys which have upset so many DPF equipped diesels in the UK without an issue. The EU5 equipped car is now doing exactly the same journeys now with added Stop/Start technology.
Which now leads to my only issue with new diesels. When did turbos stop needing a cool down/simmer ? Last weekend we had a longish journey via Autobahn. Took to the slip road, into the services and the engine cut out as per normal stop start with the foot on the brake when the speed dropped below 6kph, same again after an hour flat out, onto the slip road, traffic queuing and the engine stopped as soon as the car did. Unless there is something new in the EU5 turbos, the under bonnet heat of our car will surely make short life of the turbo.
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Do they have any sort of pump to keep the oil circulating for a short while after ignition off?
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No idea. Couldn't hear anything over the fan trying to keep the interior cool.
There's a lot less engine cover over this eHDi model than the previous HDi. The mixer box has has been redesigned and the turbo housing also has a lot less insulation.
I've yet to find the air filter box which appears to have been moved and no longer required the removal of the headlight. Probably have to take the whole front bumper off now !!!
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I think the "Turbo cooling period" stems from the early petrol (hotter than diesel) turbo days before synthetic oil was specified. It has now been relegated to old wives tale status unless you are towing a heavy load up a serious mountain, (none in the UK). :-)
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Agreed, ON. Very few 'real driving' situations where you'd go from full pelt to engine-off without a bit of gentler driving in between. Service area stops on French autoroutes are the only example I've ever encountered - and even there the engine will have been at nothing like full load.
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>>Very few 'real driving' situations where you'd go from full pelt to engine-off
>> without a bit of gentler driving in between. Service area stops on French autoroutes are
>> the only example I've ever encountered - and even there the engine will have been
>> at nothing like full load.
I do a lot of long journeys on German autobahns in my Saab 9-5 Aero, involving pulling into service areas after c.100mph cruising. I'm always religious about letting the engine tick over for around a minute after stopping. I don't always bother to simmer on UK motorways. No idea whether it helps, but the turbo has now covered 176,000 miles with no issues. I'd rather waste a minute on the odd occasion to ensure engine longevity, but I suspect I'm being over-cautious. I also change the oil and filter every 6,000 miles (always with fully synth) despite the manufacturer recommendation of 18,000 mile intervals. The oil is pretty mucky after 6,000 so I shall keep it up.
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>> I also change the oil and filter every
>> 6,000 miles (always with fully synth) despite the manufacturer recommendation of 18,000 mile intervals. The
>> oil is pretty mucky after 6,000 so I shall keep it up.
>>
Agree. Oil change intervals are set to keep fleet managers happy with minimal servicing of almost new cars.
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Future Citroens - diddy1234
