SWMBO is nervous of driving the Passat and asked me how a learner would do a hill start on the way back from Sainsburys yesterday . . . . feminine logic and all.
Shortly after traffic stopped and I had the opportunity to do a perfect hill start hands free ably assisted by the Passat's electronics.
That started me thinking - can you do a driving test in a car with an automatic handbrake and if can do you get an auto licence?
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 18 Jun 12 at 13:38
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You can sit the test is a car with epb and they only distinguish if a car is auto or not by the number of pedals it has!
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>> can you do a driving test in a car with an automatic handbrake
Yes
www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/LearnerAndNewDrivers/PracticalTest/DG_4022543
>> and if can do you get an auto licence?
No
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With the Passat, it's not just the EPB that makes hill starts easy. The auto-hold function does too.
I assume all EPB automatically disengage as you attempt to pull away like the VW versions do?
So with auto-hold and an EPB... if you pass your test then how will you cope in a car with a handbrake?!!!
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 18 Jun 12 at 14:12
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I suppose it's no different than passing a test in a Fiesta and you can then drive a model T Ford with pedals in different order and a multiple-lever gear shift.
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I suppose it isn't in some ways. But someone is going to struggle with hill starts if they have never used a manual handbrake before.
And just as important - they are likely to forget to engage it too when parked up.
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>> And just as important - they are likely to forget to engage it too when
>> parked up.
>>
Excuse me being a bit thick here, but could you elaborate on this a bit?
The EPB on my car has to be engaged when I park it, so its the same routine as with a manual "conventional" handbrake. It's force of habit regardless of the handbrake type.
Are there types of EPB out there that automatically engage when the engine is stopped?
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My reference to forgetting was to do with them driving a car with a conventional handbrake after only ever having ones with an EPB that automatically get applied.
Answering your second question then yes. Providing my VW has auto hold switched on (it normally is) then when you stop the engine (or take off the seatbelt when stationary) the EPB is automatically applied. It also auto disengages if you are wearing a seatbelt and try to drive off - otherwise you must press the brake pedal before manually releasing it.
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About half the cars I deliver come with electronic parking brakes. I don't really drive them far enough to try out the hill hold function, and their buttons are all laid out differently, so I just put the switch up or down like a manual handbrake.
You can hear the electric motor wind the back brakes on and off, plus the footbrake sinks when the parking brake goes on. All I'm worried about is that they stay put until I've strapped the wheels down :)
I can't see the driving test making special allowances for EPBs any more than for stop/start, flappy paddles or reversing cameras, they would have to rewrite it every couple of years to keep up with technical developments if that were the case. A candidate only has to demonstrate familiarity with the car they are taking their test in, evidenced by the requirement to show they know how to check and top up oil, screenwash etc - each car is different.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Mon 18 Jun 12 at 18:40
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I think I might get a bit confused if I had to put a car with an electronic handbrake on a transporter or something. Suppose you'd get the knack of it if you were doing it all the time.
I'd quite like to torture the person responsible for Mercedes handbrakes. Whoops, mentioned it again haven't I ?
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Mon 18 Jun 12 at 18:51
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Handbrake you say? Not sure the, oh, hang on - yes, um... I just leave it in 'P' nowadays... ;-)
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When I had a car with an EPB for the first time as a hire car I asked did it auto-disengage and was there a hill hold function. None of them at the depot knew but one went out in the car to try it.
The suggestion for when on a hill you put your foot on the brake pedal and release the parking brake... how you also applied pressure on the accelerator and brought the clutch up at the same time they couldn't tell me.... But they were adamant you had to have your foot on the brake pedal before you could release the EPB.... Of course you'd use it like a normal handbrake if you wanted - but it did auto-release as it happens.
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>> I just leave it in 'P' nowadays... ;-)
I have an inbuilt distrust of Park, ever since I had an auto Cortina Park ratchet fail on a hill about 20 years ago :(
Most modern cars have an electronic Park selector, which must be just as reliable as an electronic parking brake I suppose. Still can't bring myself to rely on it though.
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>> Handbrake you say? Not sure the, oh, hang on - yes, um... I just leave
>> it in 'P' nowadays... ;-)
>>
don't. there's only a pawl which hold the gearbox in 'P'. If it breaks, you'll have serious problems:
from wiki:
The parking pawl locks the transmission's output shaft to the transmission casing by engaging a pawl (a pin) that engages in a notched wheel on the shaft, stopping it (and thus the driven wheels) from rotating.
Most vehicle manufacturers and auto mechanics do not recommend using the transmission's parking pawl as the sole means of securing a parked vehicle, instead recommending it should only be engaged after first applying the vehicle's parking brake. Constant use of only the parking pawl, especially when parking on a steep incline, means that driveline components, and transmission internals, are kept constantly under stress, and can cause wear and eventual failure of the parking pawl or transmission linkage. The pawl might also fail or break if the vehicle is pushed with sufficient force, if the parking brake is not firmly engaged. Replacement can be an expensive operation since it generally requires removing the transmission from the car.
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The electronic handbrake on my car engages and disengages automatically when the selector is moved in and out of Park.
It has to be engaged manually if you just drop it into Neutral.
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I pull a handle. Don't have to worry what the clutch or gearbox is doing.
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Probably for the best.
Don't want to confuse the retired folk.
;-)
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Its good exercise. You get tennis elbow if you have EPB.
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Trust you are a silent handbrake puller Z? Can't be doing with uncouth rachet clickers. Automotive equivalent to being seen in public in a vest or 3/4 length trousers. One has no alternative but to click embarrassingly with a certain manufacturer's foot operated parking brakes. Another reason why those who permitted their fitment should be punished.
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>>One has no alternative but to click embarrassingly with a certain manufacturer's foot operated
>> parking brakes. Another reason why those who permitted their fitment should be punished.
If you pull out and hold the release lever while pushing the foot pedal down then a silent application of the parking brake can still be achieved, or so I've been told...
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Going outside to try that right now !
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Have you seen someone doing that? Stooping down with the right hand while cocking the right knee? Looks like Humphs dog peeing up a tree.
Rather be a ratcheter.
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Not only that, Humph, but to clunk conspicuously when releasing the thing. I've tried a couple of times to position my foot to catch the pedal and let it up gently, but that just stops it from releasing completely and sends the instrument panel into a loud, red hissy fit. No wonder owners of this little-known make tend to keep the footbrake on at traffic lights instead.
On - or rather, under - the other hand, I do like the great big armrest where the handbrake ought to be.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Mon 18 Jun 12 at 21:02
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Pah ! It still clicken.
Peter and Will are outside trying it now, I just know it !!
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Mon 18 Jun 12 at 21:06
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I'm still trying to work out how Zero thinks it can be done with your right foot. But then he's a southerner I suppose. Best make allowances.
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You're right! I did, and it doesn't...Sorry Humph :-( I just leave it in 'P', except on the Eurostar when belt and braces seemed the order of the day...
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Manual handbrakes on both Beemers. (It's my right elbow !)
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Some RHD cars had the handbrake lever on the right you know. Early 60s Aston Martins and Singer Vogues I think were among them. Might be wrong and in a way hope I am. I'll be quite worried if it turns out I knew stuff like that accurately.Oh and by the way, the Astons had the fly off type...
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>Some RHD cars had the handbrake lever on the right you know.
As did my 944T
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Come to think of it, a pal had a 924S ( hairdresser Porsche bodywork but with a decent 2.5 engine version ) I'm sure that had the handbrake on the right.
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>Some RHD cars had the handbrake lever on the right you know.
As did my A35.
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We've been looking wistfully at some Astons....!
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No room for the dogs though.
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June edition of Classic & Sports Car have a rundown of the DB7 and DB7 Vantage Volante.
Front page is:
"Aston's Amazing DB7"
"Buy Now! Aston Martin's saviour will never be cheaper"
It's an investment Rob!
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Behind me Satan !
Saw a very nice 1964 one today in red - fur coat sort of car, coool. He was driving like a fart though !
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>Saw a very nice 1964 one today in red - fur coat sort of car, coool. He was driving like a fart though !
Ahh!
The '64 models don't have a multi legged lightening shaped symbol that lights up on the dash!
Tee hee!
;-)
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Be careful, be very careful. Many people have had their fingers burnt buying old AMs.
I went round their Newport Pagnell factory in the '70s. Rusty fillets of sheet steel were being welded into corners for reinforcement, creating inaccessible boxes.
A few years later I saw an AM specialist restorer at work. Back then they charged a five figure sum just to remove the aluminium body to assess the steel underneath. Work in progress included one that had just had its body removed, what lay underneath would make a grown man weep.
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The Prius, which, being elderly, I don't fully understand, seems to have a foot parking brake and an EPB.
Collecting one from the city yesterday evening for a service today, I stopped at the shop on the way home and pressed the ' P ' button. Got me crisps and got back in the car, confidently, to drive home. It started and the engine cut in but nothing happened when I pressed the go pedal....the pilot light just went out and I had to re-start it.
Ten minutes later I decided to ring the fleet engineer over in Yorkshire......no reply. Fiddled about a bit more and found a slot on the gearchange gate which I hadn't noticed. Tried it and the engine started and the car lurched forward....I was covering the brake !
Talk about over-complex.....I had a couple of ten mile runs in it today, it was sunny so I had to have me dark bins on. No way could I see the speedo, being under a cowl about 3 feet away at the base of the screen. There is a good ' head up screen display ' but it was off and I wasn't going to read the huge handbook for that one !
Ted
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...except on the Eurostar...
Blimey! Imagine the clicking on the way down the escalator at St Pancras.
};---)
Incidentally, we went to France on Le Shuttle from Folkestone, but came back with Brittany Ferries from St Malo. The train people seemed to be aware of automatics and asked us to select first or P as appropriate; the ferry insisted that we passer une vitesse. They also made an announcement, once we were in our cabin, to the effect that (a) access to the car deck was now prohibited until we reached Portsmouth, and (b) we should disable our alarm. (We had, of course, but...)
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How do you disable the alarm on, er, um, estate cars?
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No need on reflection, just ask the car, by voice command, to ring the nice lady who would explain it...
:-)
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>> How do you disable the alarm on, er, um, estate cars?
>>
One of the switches in the roof in front of the rear view mirror deactivates the interior and tilt sensors, but I don't know if its actually possible to turn the whole thing off
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Oops! Well, it's a train that goes to France... :-)
Next week we have the joy(!) of a North Sea Ferry crossing to Zebrugge (after a few days in Yorkshire) before trip down through Belgium to Epernay, returning via the tunnel. If my recollection of the north sea crossing, which I last took in around '92, is accurate it'll be fairly choppy, so ample opportunity for the alarm to flatten the battery I guess...
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Stayed in a shatux in Epernay once. Seem to think they made fizzy wine there.
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Pretty sure when I was learning to drive you were not allowed to sit a test in a car with electronic hand brakes. Have things changed or am I getting mixed up?
Not sure what the point of all this auto crap is, I am a crap driver and haven't stalled my Panda or rolled it on a hill start once this year.*
*OK I admit I did stall it a few weeks back.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Mon 18 Jun 12 at 22:29
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Maybe the rules have changed?
www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/LearnerAndNewDrivers/PracticalTest/DG_4022543
Changed late 2010 I think. Examiner would use the EPB to stop the car if no dual controls - assuming they needed to of course.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 18 Jun 12 at 22:58
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>> Maybe the rules have changed?
>>
>> www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/LearnerAndNewDrivers/PracticalTest/DG_4022543
>>
I notice the rule about the car having to be a smoke free environment. Examiners have been instructed to refuse to conduct a test in a car where their is any evidence that someone has been smoking in it. Bunch of wimps, twenty odd years back I had a check test with a supervising examiner who sat in the back during the lesson with his pipe aglow. Clan IIRC, which has a nice aromatic smell to it.
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I'm hopeful we'll have some space in the car to bring a few bottles back... :-)
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>>
>> www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/LearnerAndNewDrivers/PracticalTest/DG_4022543
>>
Anyone know why you can't use a hire car for your test?...and how they would know anyway.
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Oh joy. The first time I saw an EPB was in the dark, collecting a car parked on a double yellow line by Victoria Station. Hire car of course. Bloke dropped it on the road, handed me the keys and did a runner. Could I get the wretched thing moving (conscious that any parking ticket would be mine)?
I recall another similar occasion with a car that required a foot on the foot brake to light the engine.
On both occasions I was helped by another customer - obviously frequent hirers.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 19 Jun 12 at 10:51
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My car needs the clutch depressed to start the car - probably all (or many) VW models do. At least in the UK it tells you to do this on the MFD - but if you hired it overseas you'd perhaps struggle. I always depress the clutch anyway.
Similarly to disengage the EPB manually you need to put your foot on the brake pedal first. To auto disengage you need to be wearing your seatbelt.
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>> To auto disengage you need to be wearing your seatbelt.
That'll be why I can't get them to do that trick then, I don't move them far enough to need my belt on.
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It will indeed Dave - so you need to press the brake pedal and then manually release the EPB. and then also reapply the EPB too. When you stop the car and remove your belt it auto engages - and with auto hold on it won't move between you stopping the car and removing belt (or turning off the engine).
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I do watch very carefully for the red handbrake light, and listen for it applying, before taking my foot off the brake. It's not so much the cost of repairing bumpers, more the hassle a bump or a scratch would cause to everyone else in the supply chain (not least the end user!) by delaying the job.
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is there a manual backup if the electronic parking brake fails due to electrical failure, i be wary of buying a car if that happens
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Do you mean a mechanical way of releasing it or applying it?
Just been out in my car and thought I'd try out the manual release process I described. You have to keep your foot on the brake pedal whilst you disengage the EPB. I had assumed auto-hold meant you didn't.... Note I didn't have my belt on though so auto-hold would have been disabled.
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On some of the hybrids and other cars with stop/start technology, using the EPB is a PITA! Yes, the engine will turn off if you have the thing in 'D' and your foot on the brake in traffic. Engage the brake, take foot off brake, and engine runs. So... save the environment AND burn the guy behind you's eyes with your brake lights!
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I thought stop/start feature is only offered in manual cars.
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Stop/start is available in VW DSG equipped cars for example.
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My cars an auto and has the stop/start 'eco' technology. Cuts in (or should that be out) when the auto-hold is activated by a firm push on the brake pedal. Does mean though that the car is held on the foot brake, thus irritating those sensitive to the glare of brake lights...
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I reckon these gadgets are all pretty good, but they're hopeless for hire cars.
Drove a 3 series (or it might have been a Passat?) with the auto on - auto off eco feature, and I rather liked it - or at least quickly got used to it. The car's owner hated it and warned me never to sit in neutral at lights. (Recipe for new clutch/thrust bearing/etc/etc)
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I soon got used to stop-start on mine. But as I can do a lot of local driving as well it often does not get a chance to be used.
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BMW now offer start/ stop on automatics.
Talking to a supplier of the start/ stop systems. A lot of these systems really roger the battery especially when only used around town. Heard of batteries being replaced after less than 2 years.
Newer systems in top end cars use supercapacitors which are charged via regenerative braking, similar to the KERS technology in Formula 1.
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I wonder what the regenerative braking on my VW actually does? I assumed it recharges the battery and therefore reduces the need for the alternator to charge it?
In a typical week I tend to use regenerative braking more than stop-start. The car still has only 7300 miles since October 7th.
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My volvo has stop start, and its also fitted to the geartronic version.
System works quite well - it has 2 batteries and regenerative braking, but I understand that there are some cheaper systems which just power everything from the 1 battery
Had a dsg equipped car with it fitted in Spain - worked very well, except for a couple of times when it stopped while waiting to pull out onto a roundabout
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>> Had a dsg equipped car with it fitted in Spain - worked very well, except
>> for a couple of times when it stopped while waiting to pull out onto a
>> roundabout
>>
I'm sure that stop/start is a genuine fuel saver and not just a gimmick.
However, when I read reports like the one above, and hear stories about problems at traffic lights with it, and problems with it aggressively cutting in when attempting to parallel park (and yet other tales of it "getting in the way"), I wonder if the hassle outweighs the benefit.
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I'd only buy a "stop start" car if it had an easy to operate kill switch. No switch? No sale.
I'm not convinced it offers the owner a long term benefit at all. Starter motor must be more expensive, likewise the battery and while I've never worn one out on a modern car, I wonder if the flywheel ring gear might be worn out by a huge increase in the number of starts.
Benefit for the manufacturer of course is a lower CO2 figure, but other than a magazine my brother used to get, few figure the total cost of long term ownership.
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>> I'm not convinced it offers the owner a long term benefit at all. Starter motor
>> must be more expensive, likewise the battery and while I've never worn one out on
>> a modern car, I wonder if the flywheel ring gear might be worn out by
>> a huge increase in the number of starts.
On many stop start cars, the starter motor is only used on a conventional start.
On the Smart for instance, the alternator is in fact a generator/motor.
I must admit though, sales of drive belts are up......
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>>and problems with it aggressively cutting in when attempting to parallel
>> park (and yet other tales of it "getting in the way")
Good Lord. Are there still cars where you have to parallel park manually? How very archaic.
:)
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Electonic Hand Brakes and driving tests - colino
