I suppose this should be in technical but we have found a far from technical solution to cure the problem.
Today has been a trifle wet around Dartmoor and the wipers have been on all day.
We parked on Plymouth Hoe late this afternoon to watch the naval ships manouvering around and switched the engine off. The windscreen wipers kept going.
We tried all different positions and still they kept going. We took the keys out and locked the doors, and stood and watched as the wipers kept on going.
Wanting to go and have a leisurely evening meal at The Liscawn at Portwrinkle, we realised the battery would be flat when we finally came out feeling rather full, and it would spoil a pleasant day.
Plan of action: Ring Pilgrims of march ( Ford Dealer) and ask for the postcode of the nearest Ford Dealer to us on The Hoe.
Post code in Tom Tom and off we go to Vospers of Plymouth to be met with Good Afternoon Sir, have you got an appointment?
We explain the problem and ask if someone could look at it now, but we (reluctantly) got the apprentice's younger brother.
He went straight to the 'general module' or as he called it 'the brains' situated below the glove box on the passenger side.
He disconncted it completely but the wipers still carried on going, much to his dismay.
He gave up and said the car would have to be booked in.
Very sniffy front of house lady tells us they can't do anything today, and won't commit them to doing anything tomorrow.
She asks us if we know how to disconnect a battery...at that point we decided our knowledge of the problem was at least as good as Fords and left.
Managed to find a chippy in Saltash to eat in the car with the engine ( and wipers) still going........poor substitute for The Liscawn but years of lorry driving teaches you never to break down unless you have just eaten.
Get back to the caravan site and a plan begins to form.
Ring GEM assist and see what they make of the problem, pour a glass of wine and have a look at the handbook.
GEM will be with us within an hour when Ian finds that the fuse for the wiper system is in the engine compartment fuse box.
So, not being able to understand why Fords hadn't bothered to try pulling it out, he decided to give it a go.
As soon as he released the second catch on the fuse box, the wipers stopped.......and have behaved impecably ever since.
We quickly cancelled the GEM call out but has anyone had this problem before?
Are we likely to have it again, and what could have caused it?
Are Fords usually as obtuse and unhelpful as this?
I have to say, we've come down to Cornwall in some bangers over the years and this is the newest car we've ever had (58 plate) and the first one to be a problem on holiday!
Pat
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Does your Mondeo have automatic wipers, Pat? That generally means wiring them into the car's management system, which presumably creates opportunities for things to go wrong, where a more conventional setup would simply go off with the ignition.
I'm still learning with our new-to-us large estate (which does have auto-wipers, which are good - so far - and auto-lights, which are useless) what will and will not work without the key in the slot. It's nothing like as simple as the old Volvo, where you can have the parking lights but that's all.
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Yes, WilldeB it does have automatic wipers and they had been set on auto all day as well.
Pat
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It does sound like an auto wiper glitch Pat. I'd have found and pulled the fuse when it first occurred, and cursed it a lot. Then I'd have put the fuse back, just to check I wasn't imagining things.
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Ah! - big mistake there Pat, you'd have received better treatment this side of the Tamar.
First thing I thought of on reading about the wipers was = pull the fuse, bit too technical for a technician I suppose.
Shame about the weather m8, I thought of you this morning:
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/thousands-mark-summer-solstice-7872151.html?action=gallery
Better weather tomorrow (Friday) from about mid day on, they say :)
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Of course, we thought about pulling the fuse, but not wanting to mess about doing that for the rest of the holiday, and assuming it would probably be a faulty stalk switch, we felt it made sense to let a Ford dealer diagnose and get it sorted properly.
The thing is, the fuse has never been pulled.
The wipers stopped as soon as Ian released the second clip on the lid of the fuse box.
The Ford mechanic (??) took the brains module out completely and disconected it .....according to him, it's impossible for the wipers to carry on going with this box disconnected, but they did.
We're trying to understand the route the power takes from battery to wipers and where in this route the brain module under the glove box appears. I like to work out a process of elimination with any fault.
There must be a wiring diagram in the handbook, I shall make another coffee, ignore the wind blowing the awning and study that!
Pat
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>> The Ford mechanic (??) took the brains module out completely and disconected it .....according to him, it's impossible for the wipers to carry on going with this box disconnected, but they did.
>>
>> We're trying to understand the route the power takes from battery to wipers and where
>> in this route the brain module under the glove box appears. I like to work out a process of elimination with any fault.
>>
>> There must be a wiring diagram in the handbook, I shall make another coffee, ignore
>> the wind blowing the awning and study that!
Good luck with the wiring diagram. It won't help.
have a look here... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus
Basically CAN-bus does not use wiring and switches as we mere mortals understand, the switching is done by signals.. a switch sends a signal to an ECU, which transmits a pulse, another ECU reconverts back to a motor etc....
When CAN-bus goes faulty (which they do) then all manner of strange things can occur - which MAY be cured by a hard reboot (pulling the fuse, or more likely disconnecting the battery) but may (OFTEN!!!) involve a new ecu... or switch... or motor... or a mix of all the above.
Trying to get to the bottom of such faults can be a nightmare, even using the manufacturers diagnostic machines due to the diagnostics's not being able to interrogate the car system due to there being a fault in the cars system.... DOH!!!!
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I'm sooooooo glad I got out of tuning and diagnostics when I did or I would have been barking by now!
:)
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Sounds more like a short circuit or some dampness in the fuse box. My X1's Stop/Start not functioning so BMW are replacing the er....radio.
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Its is likely, that the rain has provided some form of ground to a logic pin on one of the controllers. As such will be completely untraceable when dry, and near impossible when wet unless you can reproduce the specific environmental factors again.
PAt was lucky that thy at least have the area the short is likely to be. If it were me I would get out a can of damp seal and spray the upper and underside of the fusebox. (with the lid off)
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>
>> There must be a wiring diagram in the handbook, I shall make another coffee, ignore
>> the wind blowing the awning and study that!
>>
>> Pat
There is not. The wiring diagram for a modern car is produced by the computer that designed the circuit and usually only available on the diagnostic CD issued to dealers.
Your wipers are can bus controlled. There is no "route"
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>> Are Fords usually as obtuse and unhelpful as this?
I think you were just unlucky in choosing that particular dealer. I've had Ford cars since 1976 (but not exclusively) and I've always found Ford (the manufacturer) to be very helpful. All the Ford dealers I've done business have been knowledgeable, helpful, and efficient. I've never had any complaints to make whatsoever.
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Never found that with Ford. Awful to say the least.
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I think dealer service helpfulness varies with the workshop load when you turn up unannounced with a problem. I am sure they will jump at the chance to fill a vacant booking slot.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 22 Jun 12 at 08:44
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Thanks Swiss Tony for taking the time to explain canbus to us...it doesn't make sense, but does explain why our past knowledge of a Mk1 Capri and 3 series BMW, respectively, isn't helping with the Mondeo:)
We had driven through a lot of surface water in the back lanes of Dartmoor yesterday, so I think WD40 may be the answer....and we have some here.
Much as it pains me to say so, Zero was right;)
There was no wiring diagram in the handbook!
Nice here this morning Dog, but still windy, we notice the wind is forecast to be rough during the night on Saturday night.
Pat
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>>Nice here this morning Dog, but still windy, we notice the wind is forecast to be rough during the night on Saturday night<<
You need to move around m8, where you are now is ex-posed to the Westerlies where as when we lived in Gorran 'Haven' it was completely sheltered from those winds which predominate here.
In the fifteen years we've lived down ere we've more-or-less had "to die for views" but, the wind can and does get you then, so this place where we are now is so well sheltered from wind of any direction, needless to say all we can see is very high trees - the tops of which are quite mobile at the mo :}
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>> Never found that with Ford. Awful to say the least.
>>
:-D
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>> Never found that with Ford. Awful to say the least.
>>
Seconded. I'm just amazed that the OP managed to take their car into a Ford dealer and get it back with only the fault it went in with. Mine always used to come back with a few extra ones added.
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>> >> Never found that with Ford. Awful to say the least.
>> >>
>> Seconded. I'm just amazed that the OP managed to take their car into a Ford
>> dealer and get it back with only the fault it went in with. Mine always
>> used to come back with a few extra ones added.
>>
:-D
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The problem is that dealers are not equipped, trained or experienced to deal with problems like that. Oh yes of course they have shedloads of equipment, but not the right kind of mechanics.
Looking at your car would mean an hour on the diagnostic machine and taking up a booked bay.
Trouble is garages need blokes like me, Apprenticed in aircraft avionics, 20 years fixing electro mechanical and logic control equipment in situ, able to follow a computer logic diagram, networking savvy, and a good diagnostic nose.
You won't get blokes like me by paying 8 quid an hour.
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I just knew it would go to your head when I told you that you were right!
Pat
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>> I just knew it would go to your head when I told you that you
>> were right!
>>
>> Pat
Listen, I have given you the cure for sod all, let alone 8 quid an hour. Don't knock it!
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>> A very similar problem:
>>
>> www.talkford.com/topic/198527-wipers-fault-and-windows-reset/
>>
Mondy55's reply seems the most logical.
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>> >> A very similar problem:
>> >>
>> >> www.talkford.com/topic/198527-wipers-fault-and-windows-reset/
>> >>
>>
>> Mondy55's reply seems the most logical.
Absolutely, sounds right on the money to me.
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>> Oh yes of course they have shedloads of equipment, but not the right kind of mechanics.
They like to be referred to as technicians these days. "Mechanic" is too common a title for them.
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>>They like to be referred to as technicians these days. "Mechanic" is too common a title for them.
Yes, it's part of the same cynical title crep which means that people who fix boilers, phot-copying machines, etc, are called engineers by the companies who sell their time.
The title creep is just a way of making people happier to pay more for the service. As hinted at by Z above, it doesn't necessarily mean that the pay received by the mechanic / technician is commensurate.
The motor trade, in particular, relies on a steady supply of young men who are interested in motor cars. Most who have any sense get out and do something more sensible. The ones who are left to become mature mechanics are either motor vehicle fanatics, or they can't move out of their current job for some reason or other. The second group is much more common than the first!
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>> >>They like to be referred to as technicians these days. "Mechanic" is too common a
>> title for them.
In my last job my title was changed from Engineer to Enabler. It was part of the company's adoption of Business Process Reengineering. tinyurl.com/merzl
Last edited by: L'escargot on Fri 22 Jun 12 at 10:36
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Business process re-engineering is the analysis and design of workflows and processes within an organization. According to Davenport (1990) a business process is a set of logically related tasks performed to achieve a defined business outcome. Re-engineering is the basis for many recent developments in management. The cross-functional team, for example, has become popular because of the desire to re-engineer separate functional tasks into complete cross-functional processes.[citation needed] Also, many recent management information systems developments aim to integrate a wide number of business functions. Enterprise resource planning, supply chain management, knowledge management systems, groupware and collaborative systems, Human Resource Management Systems and customer relationship management.
Business process re-engineering is also known as business process redesign, business transformation, or business process change management.
You know what, you just have to admire the way the computer industry got its hooks into business, and made them change to fit what we had to sell, rather than make stuff to fit in with them.
Sheer genius.
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>> Seconded. I'm just amazed that the OP managed to take their car into a Ford
>> dealer and get it back with only the fault it went in with. Mine always
>> used to come back with a few extra ones added.
>>
Consider yourself lucky. Last time my car went into a Ford dealer it came back not only still faulty, but with over a hundred dents on it!! ;)
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Time to dust off my Ford dealer true story.
Took my 1600 Orion into Trimoco Leeds for a booked service in 1988. The day before, as it happened, it had acquired a major clunk/knock when letting the clutch in from a standstill, so I asked them to investigate. This was a frame-shaking knock, that you could feel, not just a minor rattle. Impossible to miss.
When I picked it up they said they hadn't been able to trace the problem because it had been raining all day and they couldn't do a proper test drive. How anybody managed to drive it into the workshop without noticing was a mystery.
I drove over to my brother's to moan, him being a mucky-anic. He lifted the bonnet, rocked the engine a couple of times, and grunted "broken engine mount".
I went back to Trimoco the following day and made them look at it. They insisted there was nothing wrong with the engine mounts so I left it for them to look at. Got it back, fixed, with a a new engine mount.
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This is a good touring site, probably not to Mr & Mrs PDA's liking but, its sheltered from THAT wind,
and has a beaut of a beach:
plus.google.com/103317541397361906630/about?gl=uk&hl=en
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Forget ECUs, control modules and can buses for a minute and get back to basics, The last circuit to the wiper motor will operate through a relay and I reckon it was a stuck wiper relay, a good clout on the side of the fuse box would probably have freed it.
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>> a good clout on the side of the fuse box would probably have freed it.
Trying to take the cover off the fusebox seems that have fixed it too. So quite possibly a relay.
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>>They like to be referred to as technicians these days.
I 'phoned a building society a few days ago and an automated voice informed me that there was a queue, but a Consultant would be available to speak to me shortly.
A Consultant, no less. Beat that if you can...
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Their remuneration will decide their rank and I usually rename it for them if they get uppity. Can cause much consternation and of course much mirth too.
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>>
>> A Consultant, no less. Beat that if you can...
Would be nice to, hard and often.
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The receptionist at the local Toyopet dealer, Becky, is now a service adviser.
Mind you, I did get a hug and a kiss when I collected the Prius after last week's service !..
Talk about a blonde magnet...read and weep, lads !
Ted
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did she tap your fusebox Ted?
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No, I gave her a sweety though. Going back next week, forgot to get the book stamped. HeHe.
The best tip to give anyone is to tell them not to keep Firey Jack and pile ointment on the same shelf in the medicine cabinet !
Ted
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>>The best tip to give anyone is to tell them not to keep Firey Jack and pile ointment on the same shelf in the medicine cabinet !
And why do they put E45 cream in what looks like toothpaste tubes?
;>(
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Thanks for the thought Dog but this bit >>love the new clubhouse and beachbar we love it !!!!! <<<< means it's not for us!
We love the views, the quiet, the sound of the sea, the wildlife and most of all the views, so we'll decide whether to take the awning down tomorrow afternoon or not.
We're used to sleeping in a wobbly air suspended cab so a wobbly box in the wind is a doddle.
Thanks all for the links to the Talk Ford Forums, it does seem to be a sticky relay and though I would love to be able to report that the wipers have worked perfectly today, it hasn't rained at all where we've been!
www.cornishbirdsofprey.co.uk
We go every year to renew our sponsorship of a Peregrine Falcon called Gizmo and see the birds of prey at close quarters...well worth a visit!
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Fri 22 Jun 12 at 21:34
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>>We love the views, the quiet, the sound of the sea, the wildlife and most of all the views<<
Yep! - there are 3 very good things about Bay View Farm = Location, Location, Location, and I can't argue with that.
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Update:
Thanks to CG, L'es and Zero for the link to the Talk Ford forums above.
The problem recurred on the way home from holiday but every time we wanted to stop the wipers, it was cured by touching the fuse box lid in a certain place!
We ordered a new relay (number 11) from our local Ford dealer for under £25 and fitted it last week.
Up to now it seems to have completely cured the problem.
I cannot believe Vospers couldn't have tried that on the day we called in, instead of going down the most expensive route first.
Thanks again.
Pat
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Getting the evil eye from one, cold shoulder from another and the third one has moved in next door apart from meal times, since we dared to leave them!
Pat
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25 quid for a bleeding relay? lord elp us, it only cost fruppence to make.
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>> I cannot believe Vospers couldn't have tried that on the day we called in, instead
>> of going down the most expensive route first.
>>
That's where my car was sold from and "looked after" for it's first three years.
Given your experience, that explains a lot about the niggly faults my car had when I got it...
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Probably wannabee Audi dealers! - Vospers dung Technique!
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Mondeo wipers and Cornish rain - WillDeBeest
