A colleague took his Focus in for a "free health check" at his local Ford dealership a couple of weeks ago. He's just had a call on his mobile to say that the health check picked up the rear brake pads were 65% worn, and therefore he should really consider booking the car in now for this work to be done. Not a gullible chap by any stretch of the imagination, his response was that as the car was 18 months old, and was still on the original pads, maybe they might want to call him back sometime in early 2014.
And they wonder why so many people are inherently distrustful of main dealer service departments.
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I'm beginning to wonder if and when when my main dealer will get around to suggesting that brake pads, etc, need changing on my modest barge.
Bless their cotton socks, not as much a whisper in almost ten years.
:)
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>> ............ the car was 18 months old, and was still on the original pads, ..............
What does that prove? Did your colleague check the rear pads before replying to the dealer?
Not all franchised dealers are untrustworthy. I've been using franchised dealers (of various makes) for servicing for 47 years and have never had occasion to mistrust any of them. And before you say that perhaps I'm not knowledgeable about cars or are naive and gullible, then perhaps my lifelong career in automotive R&D will reassure you. There are far too many people unjustifiably knocking franchised dealers. I'm just the opposite. I've only been to an independent garage once and it put me off them for life.
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The vectra at 21k needed new rear pads the fronts are 35% worn.
Shocking really but thats it, i replaced them with Mintex.
The caliper slides were seized it's a alloy caliper and it corrodes were the rubber sleeve sits in the slide and it grabs the bolt, 30 mins of cleaning both sides with a file and some copper slip all ok.
So low mileage cars still have problems.!
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>> >> ............ the car was 18 months old, and was still on the original pads,
>>
>> What does that prove?
I think DP is just saying that according to the garage's own figures the work doesn't need doing now, and to imply that it does is misleading.
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I agree with L'escargot. I've never had a problem with main dealer servicing, but I have had problems when trying to save a bob or two by going elsewhere.
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>> >> >> ............ the car was 18 months old, and was still on the original
>> pads,
>> >>
>> >> What does that prove?
>>
>> I think DP is just saying that according to the garage's own figures the work
>> doesn't need doing now, and to imply that it does is misleading.
>>
If my pads were 65% worn after 18 months I wouldn't want to leave them much longer before I had them replaced. The figures suggest that in another 9 months they'd be completely worn out.
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I understand that the "pad replacement needed" approach is about ensuring they do not wear out before the next service, thus avoiding problems for the customer at a possibly incovenient time.
Here ends the words from the book :-)
How to calculate IF pads will wear out in the next year is open to question.
If you are a very regular customer doing the same sort of mileage each year this calculation should be easier.
I am a lowish mileage customer and got the low pads report two years running.
Same pads are still OK.
That is when I start to query things especially as the previous report should be on the all knowing comphuter.
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>> I've only been to an independent garage once and it put me off them for life.
I've been to franchised dealers several times (I'm prepared to give them more than the one chance), that's why I try to avoid them like the plague.
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>> What does that prove? Did your colleague check the rear pads before replying to the
>> dealer?
It proves that the dealer is calling customers and trying to get them to make a separate trip back to their premises for work which is not required at the time. The mechanically un-savvy will fall for it.
To change a set of brake pads at 65% worn is a complete waste of money, and a garage which encourages this, especially via an unsolicited phone call, is out to make a few quid out of customers regardless of the circumstances.
I do agree that not all franchised dealers are untrustworthy. When we had our Grand Scenic serviced at the local Renault dealer, the front pads were reported as 50% worn. The technician, when explaining the results of the checklist completed during the service, told us that they were fine for now, but might just need replacing before the next service. Told us to keep an eye on them, quoted us a price and the approximate notice period they would need to get the car booked in, and that was the end of the matter. This is how it should be done.
I wouldn't dream of implying you are gullible or naive. I don't know you. But you frequently dismiss the entire independent garage trade based on one bad experience, and then criticise others for doing the same with franchised dealers. My experience with franchised dealers is that they generally do a good job, but at twice the labour rate of an independent, and that they often recommend work that isn't necessary.
I have also seen some appalling treatment, including that given to my sister-in-law who was taken for a ride to the tune of £2500 over 6 months for a rough running / engine management fault on her out-of-warranty Corsa, with parts being thrown at it left right and centre by two separate Vauxhall franchised dealers, with no fix. It had various sensors replaced, an ECU replaced, various software updates, and even the head gasket replaced. None of it made the slightest difference. She then booked it into a local independent fuel injection specialist, working out of a small unit on a local trading estate, who found the broken wiring harness that was causing the fault within an hour, stripped back the insulation, made a good repair with a soldering iron, heat shrank and taped the loom back up, clipped everything back into place neatly, and charged her £125. The car ran like new afterwards.
The thing to remember is that of course all these outfits are individual businesses, and therefore the ethics and customer experience will vary between them. But there two key things in the independent's favour - lower operating costs, and an absence of guaranteed business from warranty work and in-warranty servicing, meaning that to stay in business they cannot survive without repeat custom. Or hideously ripping off every customer that walks through the door, but which is more likely to result in a sustainable business?
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As I said before, the figures suggest that in another 9 months the rear pads would be completely worn out.
If my pads were 65% worn after 18 months I wouldn't want to leave them much longer before I had them replaced. I'd be grateful to the dealer for pointing out to me how fast they were wearing, and I would book the car in for them to be replaced as soon as it was convenient for me. My life is worth more to me than the cost of having the rear brake pads replaced.
Incidentally, when parts are replaced, I always ask for the old parts to be returned to me so that I can see exactly what condition they were in.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 26 Jul 12 at 11:09
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>> As I said before, the figures suggest that in another 9 months the rear pads
>> would be completely worn out.
>>
>> If my pads were 65% worn after 18 months I wouldn't want to leave them
>> much longer before I had them replaced. I'd be grateful to the dealer for pointing
>> out to me how fast they were wearing, and I would book the car in
>> for them to be replaced as soon as it was convenient for me. My life
>> is worth more to me than the cost of having the rear brake pads replaced.
1/ I doubt the dealer took the pads out, measured the thickness and compared them with a new set to caluclate the % worn.
2/ 65% worn means 35% left. Hardly unsafe
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Nicoles Polo went into a VAG dealer for a new Cam Belt. While there they gave it a safety check, and handed over a list of "defects"
I had given the car a pre MOT service and inspection, and decided the disks were lipped and worn enough for an "advisory" VAG said they were a fail, and in the end they sailed through the MOT with not a word.
The "safety inspection" by VAG tho was handy, they listed all the part numbers of work they would do, one of them being the repeater light in the door mirror, ( A definite MOT fail ). They wanted 79 quid for part and labour. The part was 19 quid so they supplied it and I fitted it in 20 minutes.
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I guess it comes down to whether you consider 65% worn brake pads to be life threatening in any way, shape or form. I personally do not. As long as the braking system's efficiency is up to scratch (which a health check or service should measure as a matter of course), and the customer is advised of findings when they pick up the car, in writing if necessary to cover the dealer legally, then that surely is enough.
My problem with this whole story is not that he was advised of the situation with the pads. I would expect nothing less. My problem is that he received an unsolicited call strongly recommending he get the work done now, when the brakes are perfectly fine as they are, and will continue to be for the immediate future. It implied a sense of urgency when there was none.
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L'esc
I am glad that there are people who adopt your approach. It keeps the costs down for the rest of us!
Does any body really know what 65% really means? It could mean 1 pad very heavily worn, 4 pads evenly worn,.....................
Do they actual measure all 4 pads, or just the worst?
65% of what - from new to to the point of when it is prudent to replace or from new to metal on metal.
Recording the disc thickness would be very useful too. But they are saving that until the car is immobile and the phone call comes............
Last edited by: pmh on Thu 26 Jul 12 at 12:25
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65% worn has to be seen in context!
If the car has done 20,000 miles worn 65% and the customer does 7,000 miles a year then that is OK. If they have done 20,000 miles in 6 months it might be more convenient to change now rather than in 3 months time which me be inconvenient for the owner.
Local Honda garage told me I needed new rear pads at 71,000 (IIRC) sold it @ 93,000 and they were still OK - passed the MoT @ 91,000 with no advisory!
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"Incidentally, when parts are replaced, I always ask for the old parts to be returned to me so that I can see exactly what condition they were in."
Yes, they keep a selection of well worn pads in a box just ready for the customer who asks to see them.
For one or two warranty issues (another story - but a good result when out of 3 year warranty) my Audi visited a main dealer on a couple of occasions over a period of a year or two. Each time I had a "safety check", each time the pads were allegedly badly worn but I declined any work. I can't remember the exact time period, but at least two years later my indy suggested I might need new pads next time. He was right and I was not at all surprised.
Last edited by: Dulwich Estate on Thu 26 Jul 12 at 12:52
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i had my honda jazz in 2 years ago for dealer servicing, the pads were 75 percent worn and the dealer remarked that it may not make it for the next service, they recommended replacement, but at £85 honda fixed price deal i declined, went to the indy, £20 labour and £19 for the pads.
There were advisorys the front tyre needed replacing as it had a small tear in the sidewall, but that was not a mot fail, and the rear wiper needed replacing, now the rear wiper cost £15, what i did was replace the rubber blade by stripping it out and for a cost of £1 fitted a new rubber blade.
As for the tyres i bought a pair of pirella snowcontrol 2 at the local indy, for a reasdonable £85 each including new valves and balancing.
I always get the car serviced at the franchised dealer, and since i been a regular customer they have thrown in half price mot, for the servicing costs i bought a honda budget servicing plan which covered 3 years servicing, at a cost of £21 a month if memory served me right.
A free hire car is given and the car is valeted as well as being serviced.
On top of that when i bought the car i extended the warranty for a further 3 years this included wear and tear option, so therefore i was covered for any defects.
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>> "Incidentally, when parts are replaced, I always ask for the old parts to be returned
>> to me so that I can see exactly what condition they were in."
>>
>> Yes, they keep a selection of well worn pads in a box just ready for
>> the customer who asks to see them.
You must go to some right dodgy dealers. I've never found my dealer to be anything but honest. When I collect the car they advise me of things which will need attention in the future, and we discuss the degree of urgency.
Getting back to the original post, 65% worn in 18 months indicates a high rate of wear and suggests that they would be unlikely to last for another 12 months.
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>> Yes, they keep a selection of well worn pads in a box just ready for
>> the customer who asks to see them.
They might do in Southwark and Lambeth, but not where I live.
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>> 65% of what - from new to to the point of when it is prudent
>> to replace or from new to metal on metal.
Rightly or wrongly, I would expect it to mean 65% of the difference of the thickness from new down to the recommended minimum thickness as specified by the manufacturer. If I was unsure what it meant then I would ask the dealer for an explanation.
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>> >> 65% of what
>>
>> Rightly or wrongly, I would expect it to mean 65% of the difference of the
>> thickness from new down to the recommended minimum thickness as specified by the manufacturer.
...who presumably err on the side of safety. That would give you just over another 9 months before they should be changed, assuming constant wear rate and reasonably accurate measurements from the dealer (who will also be playing safe?).
Do you think changing them now rather than in say 6 months' time would gain you anything?
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>> Do you think changing them now rather than in say 6 months' time would gain
>> you anything?
>>
À chacon son goût.
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>> À chacon son goût.
>>
Failing that. Chacun a son gout.
However, to each his own.
;-)
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Or even
A chacun son goût
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or possibly
À chacun son goût
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:-D
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 26 Jul 12 at 17:21
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>> L'esc
>>
>> I am glad that there are people who adopt your approach. It keeps the costs
>> down for the rest of us!
Blub blub blub!
:-D
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>> Recording the disc thickness would be very useful too. But they are saving that until
>> the car is immobile and the phone call comes ............
>>
What a cynic you are.
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L'escargot, maybe I have just got the short straw too often and maybe the people I know have too.
But, with close to 6 decades on this planet I have experience of main dealers who lie and main dealers who are just incompetent. Even back in 1979 a main dealer filled up the gearbox of SWMBO's Fiesta while it was raised at the front on jacks. He didn't appreciate that the angle caused the box to be severely overfilled thereby making gear changes more or less impossible. That's one example of 32 years ago - since then I have lost count of my own and friend's woes in main dealers.
On the same theme, I have been ripped off to varying degrees by financial advisers, pension companies, employers, businesses, private householders when working for them, ex-friends, holiday companies, insurance companies and ............government.
I no longer trust anybody and suspect the worst in all cases. Yes, it does make me a miserable old git but I am truly fed up with being trampled on and taken for a ride.
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Dulwich Estate, I'd just like to ask you two questions. (a) Do you consider yourself to be more honest than all the people that have "ripped you off", and if so (b) why should we believe you?
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Most of us get ripped off through our lives.What goes round comes round..;) Regarding services on cars it's a minefield.
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"Dulwich Estate, I'd just like to ask you two questions. (a) Do you consider yourself to be more honest than all the people that have "ripped you off", and if so (b) why should we believe you? "
Answer:
(a) Yes, with no ifs and buts.
(b) Because I'm honest - kindly refer to question (a) above.
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I've not read all this thread but it's worth mentioning that, over the past couple of months, I've had about a dozen Fiestas serviced by my own, trustworthy indy. Without exception, he has advised pad replacement shortly and in some cases discs. All cars are 10/11 platers with mileages in the teens. He does them at £60 against main agent's £110. Still £40 profit on 15 minutes labour.
Of course, being hire cars, they do get different drivers with different braking habits.
I don't know if the parts are the same as the Focus but it seems to me that brake consumables seem to be needing replacement a lot sooner than in years before.
The Corsas and Yarises that I've also had done recently haven't had the same recommendation from my man with the spanners.
Ted
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Not sure I go along with this all "main dealers are crooks and all indies are salt of the earth types who can do no wrong and will fix your car for next to nothing" thing.
I currently use a main dealer and to my knowledge have never been "ripped off'. Their servicing is reasonably priced, they price matched a nearby tyre chain for my mot this year (passed) and their oil and wiper blades were cheaper than Halfords. They lend me a car whilst mine is being serviced and they make good coffee.
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Neither would I be a think there is more than an element of truth to it. It's only posts online but the weight of them, not just on here, count for something.
Me, I've only ever been to a main dealer once for an MOT which they tied in with a cheap service and it came out with a list of all sorts of advisories coming out at several hundred pounds. I took it then to another garage known to my family nothing picked up. Even when I MOT'd it several years later when I sold still none of the main dealer advisories came up. Never went back to one after that. Always used indies with a good local reputation or just done it myself since then. Oh and being tight helped make the desision :)
I remember one vx dealer near us that my brother had to use with his company van. One of his work mates went in after they had changed the engine and said it was ok to pick up. Went to go collect it, still various bits missing and the old engine was in the back! Mind you they've gone out of business now, no surprise they were spectacularly incompetent.
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What no one has mentioned is the fact this is a Focus III with the new torque vectoring brakes.
A quick check says this is only supposed to work on the driven wheels however, a quick google suggests these MkIII's are heavy on the rear brakes.
Someone mentioned in another thread on here about the Audi Q7 needing a new set of disks and pads all round every 12k miles.
Maybe the dealer does know something which is not yet general knowledge ?
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I'm surprised that this thread has generated so much heat.
We all know why dealers offer 'free health checks'. Sure, the employee making the phone call was pushing it a bit - but that's business. No doubt there were the dreaded targets to meet. A well-managed dealer realises that to push it too far ultimately loses business through lack of trust.
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>> We all know why dealers offer 'free health checks'. Sure, the employee making the phone
>> call was pushing it a bit - but that's business. No doubt there were the
>> dreaded targets to meet. A well-managed dealer realises that to push it too far ultimately
>> loses business through lack of trust.
>>
Exactly!
The problem is, many (most??) dealers today, do not understand that there are 2 ways of making money....
1/ give a good service, and a fair (to all!) price.
earn, and keep a trust - then you will make a profit today, and the customer will come back again, he will probably tell his friends how nice it is to deal with that company, and more money will roll in for many years.
2/ rape the customer while his car is in the workshop. (yes that word is used in the trade.....)
If he refuses to authorise work, chase him... the tools are there!
Problem with that way... is that customer aint coming back.... and he WILL tell his friends how awful that dealer is......
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The one that irritates me, and perhaps this is a VAG thing as it's happened in a SEAT dealer and a VW dealer, is being told, in a serious voice, that the car is "overdue for its air conditoning service".
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>> The one that irritates me, and perhaps this is a VAG thing as it's happened
>> in a SEAT dealer and a VW dealer, is being told, in a serious voice,
>> that the car is "overdue for its air conditoning service".
>>
I asked my Ford franchised dealer when my car's aircon should be serviced, and they said when it's not working to my satisfaction ~ it's still working OK after nine years.
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With most things in life the small number of people who are dissatisfied generally feel the need to broadcast their dissatisfaction, but the large number of people who are satisfied generally don't feel the need to say anything.
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Not really come across it as much as other appear to have.
Last service on the C5 they advised that tyres were 2mm, and brake pads 70% worn so I should think about having them done.
As soon as I told the guy it was leased and going back in a few weeks he said no point in having anything done then, it will be fine till then.
Have had VW point out a few things, but never any pressure to have them done. Pads advised as needing doing, but its always been a case of "they wont last till next service so it would save you bringing it back" which on long life servicing has proven to be the case
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Ford Focus III - Franchised dealer service dept touting for work - Clk Sec
