With the new Mondeo going to be imported from the US, and the Accord looking to follow suite, are big cars dead in this country?
Some stats for you (2001 -> 2011 Sales):
Mondeo: 60,000 -> 18,000.
Vectra: 38,000 -> (Insignia) 42,000.
Citroën C5: 7,000 -> 1,100.
Renault Laguna: 10,000 -> 2,000.
Volkswagen Passat: 22,000 -> 26,000.
Peugeot 406: 17,000 -> (508) 5,000.
BMW 3er: 49,000 -> 43,000.
Audi A4: 15,000 -> 18,000.
Honda Accord: 12,000 -> 1,600.
Volvo S60: 4,500 -> 2,500.
Toyota Avensis: 15,000 -> 10,000.
Alfa Romeo 156: 5,500 -> (159) 600.
Ok, some are doing better than others, but the overall trend is clearly down. For those of us that do like Mondeo sized cars will there be nothing but premium saloons, 4x4s and boxy MPVs in a few years time?
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Fashions change, I guess the Mondeo still has a bit of an image problem but over the past ten years there has been a trend towards smaller cars anyway, you don't need stats to see that.
The latest fashion seems to posh small cars, Fiat 500, Mini, Opel Adam etc.
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Interesting, oilburner. What is your source?
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I'd say cars on average are bigger now than ever.
In any case, the biggest cars are only about 30% bigger than the smallest.
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>> In any case, the biggest cars are only about 30% bigger than the smallest.
So is a Phaeton only 30% bigger than an Up! ?
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"So is a Phaeton only 30% bigger than an Up! ?"
VW up!: 3,540 mm
VW Phaeton: 5,055 mm
OK so 42% in this case.
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>> "So is a Phaeton only 30% bigger than an Up! ?"
>>
>> VW up!: 3,540 mm
>> VW Phaeton: 5,055 mm
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>> OK so 42% in this case.
Thats nearly twice as big.
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Still comparing only cars in the marques own range:
Cygnet: 2985mm
Rapide: 5019mm
So the latter is 68% bigger.
Or:
Audi A1: 3954mm
A8LWB: 5268mm
So latter is indeed about 30% bigger (33% in fact)
Keeping to VAG cars:
Up!: 3540mm
Mulsanne 5575mm
Difference is only about 57%
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sat 8 Sep 12 at 16:37
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Smart 2500 mm
A Maybach 62s at 6165mm is 246% bigger
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>> Interesting, oilburner. What is your source?
>>
howmanyleft.co.uk/
Some fascinating stuff on there.
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>> howmanyleft.co.uk/
>>
>> Some fascinating stuff on there.
Thanks, oilburner. I look forward to a browse!
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>> Thanks, oilburner. I look forward to a browse!
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Careful, you can lose hours in there! :)
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I hope my big car will last long enough to get me home tonight.
It's not big cars that are unpopular, it's those that are expensive to fuel, and no wonder. There are people in other forums planning to snap up AMG E63s and the like at bargain prices while they can still get them at all.
The extraordinary number in OB's list is for the Insignia. Is it really outselling the Mondeo by more than two to one? And if Vauxhall keeps dumping it on the rental market, how long before you can pick one out of a skip with yesterday's M&S Triple Chicken sandwiches?
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>> It's not big cars that are unpopular, it's those that are expensive to fuel, and
>> no wonder.
My Saab only does 27mpg in daily use and 33 on a run. But as it is almost fully depreciated, it's cheaper to run it and stomach the fuel cost than replace it. I do worry on and off about the environment however, although I take comfort that I'm using less resources by keeping it on the road than bringing another car into the world. No doubt someone will argue with this philosophy but, while mine still runs as sweetly as it does now, it works for me.
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>> It's not big cars that are unpopular, it's those that are expensive to fuel, and
>> no wonder.
Is that always true though? I have a gauge of fuel economy by driving to my Mum's in Scotland, a round trip of 700 miles.
In my Avensis 1.8 petrol I got 44mpg. In my Fiesta 1.25 petrol I got 43mpg.
Around town in general use, the Avensis managed about 37-39mpg. The Fiesta only slightly better on 39-41mpg.
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IIRC the current Mondeo is a lot lot larger than the earlier model.
Size matters! so many might look elsewhere for the previous Mondeo sized car.
German cars seem to be bucking the trend?
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When I was choosing the car before the one I got the current Mondeo was just out. It was considered but was discounted for a few reasons that included:
- Ford were adamant they would not discount to fleets - it was expensive
- The model in the range with the spec I wanted was the Ghia (now gone) and it was going to have horrendous fake wood again. Worse than the previous model. They did tweak the colour in the end.
- It was big!
I went for a Mazda6. And then I did go for a bigger car in the Passat CC this time. Not much longer than the 6 but a fair bit wider.
EDIT: And the 3 series is not a bit car compared to a Passat.... in 2001 it was a lot smaller than the Mondeo class/size of car.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 7 Sep 12 at 18:14
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Compare an E30 BMW 3 to a modern-day one.
Or an 80s corolla to a modern-day version.
etc etc etc
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I think that another reason for the downturn in the sales of big cars is that cars in the supermini class have got so much better (and bigger !!) over the last 25 years or so. A 300 mile trip in a Citroen AX would have been unpleasant to say the least, but is something that I would be happy to undertake in any current small car.
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>>
>> Ok, some are doing better than others, but the overall trend is clearly down. For
>> those of us that do like Mondeo sized cars will there be nothing but premium
>> saloons, 4x4s and boxy MPVs in a few years time?
>>
Yes, given the ever falling sales of non 'premium' big cars I wonder what on earth Peugeot were thinking when they introduced the 508 to the UK. A really nice looking car IMHO, particularly the estate, but who on earth are they expecting to sell them to?
Last edited by: spamcan61 on Fri 7 Sep 12 at 18:49
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The above figures are slightly misleading in that in Toyota's case the Avensis is partially replaced by the Prius..
see:
howmanyleft.co.uk/?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=toyota+prius
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I dont think they are dead, there will always be people who can afford to run a bigger car and besides, many of the best large cars are now becoming far more economical than they once were. This is likely because they have little option with ever increasing oil prices making economy an ever bigger issue.
In terms of buying older cars on a budget, then certainly it may reach a point where a large older car that does 30 mpg will be very difficult to shift with petrol at £2 a litre ( cannot be that long now ).
If like me you do 16k ish a year but only had a car budget of a few grand, there are no large car options that will give you genuine 60 mpg or even medium sized cars for that matter, which explains why even ten year old small, economical cars have rock solid prices right now but they are giving away 2.0 family cars of similar age.
You can get similar age and mileage cars like a Citroen C5 and Renault Laguna to my Daihatsu for the same price - the Daihatsu was only about £7k brand new so in 9 years its only lost £5k, but tellingly the same age and mileage Charade was selling for almost the same money 4 years ago as it is now, such is the demand for small cars.
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I think more people should choose small cars. It will make more room on the roads for my big one. Leaving aside purchase / running costs, at no point can I think of a reason why a small car is preferable to, or more useful than, a large one. Unless you're really bad at parking. Large cars shift more people and more stuff or indeed the the same number of people and their stuff more comfortably and generally more safely than small ones.
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Well if you live somewhere where car parking is an issue a smaller car is better. Easier to drive around town, cheaper parts, generally better on fuel. People who only drive with themselves in the car or never have to move things, loads of reasons.
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Totally agree. I think other people should definitely buy one.
:-)
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I went to a local steam rally a few weeks ago where there was also a selection of classic cars amongst which were a Triumph 2.5 PI. 1600E Cortina and a MK1 Granada. What I would have classed as middle to large size saloons in their day. What surprised me was actually how small they were compared to modern saloons. For example I would put say the Escort against the Focus but in reality modern cars are larger to comparable vehicles we remember.
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Lotsof different factors at play here.
People have traded down from MK1 Mondeos into Focus's, but in reality they are not much smaller, as each new model is bigger than the outgoing
People who have traditionally bought large family sized cars have moved into MPV or 4X4 territory
People have become badge snobs and moved into premium brands
Lease companies are offering premium brands at better rates. If I take a quick look on lingscars the cheapest mondeo is £321 for a 1.6 petrol ecobost in Edge trim. For £294 you can get a C class C180 Executive SE, or spend slightly more and get a E200 CDi SE for £348 - who wants a base model ford on the driveway when you can get a Merc?
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>> The above figures are slightly misleading in that in Toyota's case the Avensis is partially
>> replaced by the Prius..
>>
That's my point isn't it? I don't want a Prius, it isn't anything like as big as my Mondeo estate, and it's a lot more expensive to buy.
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Aren't the figures the number of cars which are registered, not sold, each year? Some of the cars from earlier years will have been scrapped.
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You can measure the figures as total number taxed/sorned, *new* registrations per year and divided by fuel.
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Manufacturers ranges are massively more diverse than they used to be, which will inevitably impact on volumes of individual models. Without wishing to sound too old, when I was a younger the Ford range had just 4 separate model ranges - Fiesta, Escort, Sierra, Granada. Now there at least 8 (I've probably missed some...) - Ka, Fiesta, Focus, C-Max, Mondeo, S-Max, Galaxy, Kuga. Overlay the inexorable rise of the German manufacturers and it's no wonder that sales of individual models are in decline. I wouldn't be at all surprised if combined BMW 5 series / MB E / Audi A6 sales exceed combined Mondeo/Insignia sales
I guess the good news is that with modern platform sharing / modular construction methods and component sharing the break even volume for models gets lower, so hopefully there's still money to be made from making large cars for those that want them!
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>> (I've probably missed some...) - Ka, Fiesta, Focus, C-Max, Mondeo,
>> S-Max, Galaxy, Kuga. Overlay the inexorable rise of the German manufacturers and it's no wonder
>> that sales of individual models are in decline. I wouldn't be at all surprised if
>> combined BMW 5 series / MB E / Audi A6 sales exceed combined Mondeo/Insignia sales
B Max :-)
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Just popped into B&Q on the way home. Needed a 6' x 4' trellis panel. Slung it the back of the car. Job done. Big cars are great.
:-)
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There's no substitute for cubic inches. Outside, inside or under the bonnet.
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Anyone with half a brain and a small car uses roof bars...
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>> B Max :-)
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I hesitated over that one! It sounded like it should exist, but I couldn't picture it :-)
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"Anyone with half a brain and a small car uses roof bars..."
So, try driving at 70mph for a good few miles with a 6 ft x 4 ft trellis on the roof. Then let me know how you got on.
There's no practical substitue for volume in the back except maybe hire a van..
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>> "Anyone with half a brain and a small car uses roof bars..."
>>
>> So, try driving at 70mph for a good few miles with a 6 ft x
>> 4 ft trellis on the roof. Then let me know how you got on.
>>
Easy peasy. I did a similar job the other week with a double mattress on the roof bars.
First I strapped two gravel boards to the bars then the mattress to the gravel boards.
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Yeah, sounds really convenient. Almost as convenient as chuck the mattress in the boot and drive off...
:-)
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Exactly. Plus, big dogs don't much like being strapped to roof bars. Or maybe they do?
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Dogs just woof, presumably with joy, when strapped to the roof rack.
It's the mother-in-law who up with it will not put.
A good big 'un beats a good little 'un. (cars, not mothers in law. Though I suppose...)
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 8 Sep 12 at 20:31
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Is your Vaneo white humph?
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>>Yeah, sounds really convenient.
Actually it was as I needed to buy the item immediately. And not many places are open at 2200 and deliver immediately :-)
Not a lot of planning required by me but the number of panels I see waving in the breeze indicates it is not an obvious answer to many :-)
I prefer to drive a quieter saloon rather than a noisy hatchback or estate wagon so I am very familiar with what is required ( and safe).
Moving kids stuff, 3 years and 6 years ( plus another 3 years ) at Uni, tunes the packing / top loading believe you me.
My Thule roof bars for my Mondeo cost £5.50 from Fleabay. Much cheaper than 5 doors :-))
As part of my forward planning I have already bought S/H ( no distress purchase) Jaguar ( by Thule) roof bars in case they are needed.
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Yeah but
Stuff on the roof of a Yagwaar looks so naff.
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>> Yeah but
>>
>> Stuff on the roof of a Yagwaar looks so naff.
>>
I totally agree. If I have to use roofbars I think it will be after sun down even if they are IMO the neatest roof bars on a saloon that I have ever seen.
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A roof rack's much easier to unload....especially with a bit of help....
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCQtbLngkmM
Ted
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...quieter saloon rather than a noisy hatchback or estate wagon...
One of each in our household. The estate is quieter than the saloon. We have the hardware for putting stuff on its roof, but so far we've never needed to. But then, the saloon has brought home 2.1m-long Billy bookcases from Ikea - entirely inside the car.
Zero, you've got the wrong idea about Humph's car: it's black, the better to carry those long wooden boxes during the week.
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>> Zero, you've got the wrong idea about Humph's car: it's black, the better to carry
>> those long wooden boxes during the week.
>>
tinyurl.com/humphscar ;-)
look at this factory option for the CLS shooting brake load bay... (2nd pic down)
gearpatrol.com/2012/07/06/mercedes-benz-shooting-brake/
Last edited by: swiss tony on Sun 9 Sep 12 at 08:52
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Ah!
Friend of mine was a family partner in 'that" business. We borrowed one of the motors one night for a late night trip to brighton. At 100mph we got pulled over by the police (who were in a smashing 3.5 P6)
"Ok then lads where are we off to in such a hurry"
" We are out for a burn-up constable"
"Excelent - this fine is also going to burn a hole in your pocket"
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 9 Sep 12 at 10:02
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>> One of these will be nice
>>
>> nightcoaster.com/hearse/index.htm
>>
That sort of thing led to, one of the best pieces of automotive salesmanship I ever saw.
Many years ago, I dropped into a Peugeot/Talbot dealers with my girlfriend at the time to pick up some bits for my aging Talbot Alpine.
On seeing two Goth types in the parts department, a salesman came hurrying through from the showroom.
Turned out that a retiring Funeral Director had traded in a very tidy "razor edge" Wolseley hearse on a new Pug and said sales type had been wondering how he was going to shift such an object.
I didn't buy it (we'd just bought our first flat and were strapped for funds), but if I'd had the spare cash I probably would have at the time (quite practical and seriously cool). 10/10 to the salesman for spotting the opportunity. I doubt many potential hearse purchasers drop into your average Peugeot dealership.......
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>> " We are out for a burn-up constable"
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Was this on the way to the Crematorium?
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>> >> " We are out for a burn-up constable"
>> >>
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>> Was this on the way to the Crematorium?
It was on our way to a gary newman concert i think.
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>> So, try driving at 70mph for a good few miles with a 6 ft x
>> 4 ft trellis on the roof. Then let me know how you got on.
>>
Or two 12 ft x 5 ft farm gates, six 6 ft x 6 ft fence panels, a dozen 8 ft posts and a water trough.
Next month I need to collect a 5" diameter wooden mast 20 ft long. Will a mini carry a telegraph pole on the roof rack?
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There should be joust enough room.
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Nope, big cars will always be with us. They can even give reasonable economy. MY05 XJD I have, on the computer, averaged 38mpg over the last 12,000 miles. Albeit my travels are 95% open road 50-60mph+ travels. Luxembourg to perpignan on 1 tank of juice 2 up with a jam-packed boot for 2 weeks hols.
Family Cars (as opposed to Big Cars) are getting bigger, I started a thread about this a while back, the new Mondeo is a nice car and, for the price, very good. the 2litre petrol I tested was great. But is was, simply, too damned big. SWMBO runs a B&B and, in the last few years, we've had a number of guests who have: 1 - asked for a smaller car, 2 - been unhappy with, the Mondeo simply due to size.
Rgds
Zuave
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Small cars are now medium sized, medium sized are big, and big are huge.
Can't imagine touring Europe comfortably, four up with a fortnight's luggage in an E30 3 series. In an F30 it was just fine.
It always amuses me when I see an original Mini on the road. It looks like a toy by the size standards of modern "small cars". A mk1 Golf next to a mk6 is similarly amusing.
Last edited by: DP on Mon 10 Sep 12 at 11:33
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mk1 golf now the new polo is bigger than that, me thinks that it the eu regulations to passenger safety, and occupent safety that driving the need for bigger safer cars.
People are getting bigger and fat than those 50 years ago
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For a laugh, just take a look at the pictures a couple of posts down in his thread:
www.upownersclub.co.uk/forum/well-here-it-is_topic1905_page2.html#top
The Up! Is the smallest VW you can buy, but it's tolerable in the back for ordinary size passengers, as long as you don't embark on a long journey. Next to the Scirroca though it looks huge!!
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Yes it does look a little silly. But the Scirocco looks wider and longer than the Up. The Up just is so bulbous!
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Twenty years ago, a friend had a scirocco, and I found it very difficult to sit in,
I'm only about 5'8" but my head was very close to the roof.
(I do admit to being taller seated than standing) ( OK, short legs)
I couldn't see out of the windscreen.
It felt like a 3/4 scale model.
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I tried a Scirocco of that era to replace my Lancia HPE and found I couldn't sit comfortably in it. I'm 6ft 1in and my son is 6ft 6in - he fitted in it with no trouble. Depends on body length as opposed to leg length I guess. He has owned and rallied/hillclimbed a Pug 205 1.9 GTI for many years, because it fits him.
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Are big cars dead? - RattleandSmoke
