Well having driven a Prius 2 T Spirit for a few hours, I today test drove a Yaris Hybrid T Spirit from my local dealer Pinkstones, Stoke on Trent. (as usual they were efficient courteous and very helpful although I arrived unbooked in pouring rain!)
Summary impressions:
1. Very quiet and very composed on rough surfaces (especially compared to my Mark 1 Yaris d4d).
2. Nice handling. Even when accelerating hard and the engine kicked in , it was MUCH quieter than the Prius (software upgrades I believe to make it less noisy).
3. The single front wiper was great in the pouring rain: cleared the screen a treat.
4. Comfortable seats . I used the height adjustment on driver's seat (as on mine) to sit higher.
5. The leather bits in the seats were cold and uncomfortable. (9C outside).
6. Nice fan and heating controls But like Mark1 struggled to keep screens clear in rain.
7. Easy to drive:( I like autos.)
8. Great acceleration from rest and good brakes.
9. More boot space as standard.
10 Liked the rear parking camera but .. I could live without it.
11. The rear boot missed a board included in the brochure so when you fold the rear seats the floor is not flat. BAD. Abysmal when the brochure shows it is flat. (Weasel words exclude Toyota liability - the Toyota Prius/hybrid forum has disgruntled owners complaining).
12. Felt far more balanced and not nose heavy like the D4D
13. The T3 has no privacy glass. The T4 and T Spirit come with it as standard. I HATE privacy glass.
14. The T Spirit has 16^ alloys vs 15^ wheels on T3 (steel) alloys(T4). The turning circle is 1.8 meters greater as a result on the T Spirit.
15. I costed replacement tyres: Michelin Energy from ATS - £77 on T3/4. £155 on T Spirit. Plus balancing etc..
16. Service costs in line with normal Yaris: £119.c £179, major £249. Every 10 k miles.
Conclusions: The T Spirit has horrible cold leather and worse turning circle and expensive tyres and privacy glass.. which all say to me no. And worse fuel consumption due to the bigger wheels.
The T4 has privacy glass - a No.
The T3 has steel wheels and no leather steering wheel cover. New trims and a leather cover for under £160 would improve the looks.
A boot panel board at £60 is essential if you carry loads (I do)
Overall I enjoyed driving it and will buy one. But anyone who does not do their research is going to be mightily upset at the omissions /errors in the brochure.
I'll probably buy a T3. Waiting list quoted 6 weeks. No discounts.
Hmm... Not a satisfactory buying proposition for someone brought up in a purchasing environment.
I may decide to wait.
In conclusion:
Toyota have produced a nice hybrid but their brochure could be storing up future ill will amongst new owners. The T Spirit makes no economic sense.
Posted on Toyota Yaris Forum
www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=138197
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Nice review.
Don't forget the new Auris pricing came out today, with the new model being available from January. Looks quite interesting, although a size and price bracket up of course.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Tue 25 Sep 12 at 21:53
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tinyurl.com/yaris-hybrid-t3 - £13,719
drivethedeal.com - £14,545
www.carfile.net/vehicle.php?vehid=55518&type=b - £14,474
Modest internet savings.
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>> Is it a CVT gearbox?
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Yes and no(!)
It's a CVT in that it has an effectively infinite set of ratios, but the implementation is radically different in Toyota's HSD system to conventional CVTs, all of which work on pretty much the same principle as the old DAF "Variomatic" system (some sort of belt and expanding pulley arrangment).
The HSD transmission is, in effect, a differential like the one in your axle. The engine is connected to the planet carrier, a Motor/Generator (MG1) is attached to the sun gear and a second one (MG2) to the annulus. The annulus is also connected to the driving wheels via a second, conventional, diff. Total of 27(!) moving parts in the whole arrangement.
In electric drive, MG2 drives the wheels directly, the engine is off and MG1 is unloaded so the sun gear can spin freely. Electrodynamic braking and energy scavenging on the overrun is also accomplished by MG2 acting directly.
In "normal" hybrid operation, the engine drives the planet carrier. MG1 either is used to scavenge excess power to the battery (braking the sun gear) or powered as a brake depending on the current battery charge state, both effecting transfer of power from the planet carrier to the annulus, driving the wheels. Additional grunt can be provided for acceleration by using scavenged power from the battery to drive MG2.
At cruise, excess power from the engine is scavenged via MG1. When the battery is full[1], MG1 is powered to keep the engine running at lower revs, saving fuel. This process of scavenging and playing back alternates and is imperceptible in use, bar seeing the status display change.
An odd effect you'll notice is that the thing sounds like it has fixed gear ratios. It does not, but the Atkinson cycle engine used to reduce pumping losses only runs effectively at specific revolutions (i.e. it has "power spikes" rather than a smooth power band). The electronics juggle the available options to ensure that the engine always runs at one of its most effective revolutions and so it seems to change gear in a set of fixed ratios. Again this is seamless in use, bar the changing note of the engine.
There is no reverse gear. Reversing is always done by driving MG2 in reverse. If the battery is too low, then the engine drives MG1 "backwards" (allowing the annulus to contra-rotate relative to the planet carrier) in parallel to generate power, which is used to augment the battery in driving MG2.
See here for pictures and more detail: www.cleangreencar.co.nz/info_toyota-priusIII-technical.asp
Fiendishly clever and yet ridiculously simple underneath the apparent complexity. All the complicated stuff goes on in the electronics where it belongs.
[1] Actually it's damned near impossible to get the battery "full" as this would leave the thing no options for regeneration and it knows it. Thus when it gets fullish, the car starts doing everything in its power to shed energy, including running on pure electrics at motorway speeds.....
Last edited by: TeeCee on Wed 26 Sep 12 at 08:37
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Thanks for the above ..
I should have added:
although very quiet running on the electric motor alone, both my wife and I were conscious of the tyre noise which was very noticeable on a dryer stretch of road without surface water (well without a LOT of surface water)..
Could just have been the low profile tyres on the T Spirit. Or the road surface outside Stone in North Staffordshire where we drove. Or both.
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What a good explanation TeeCee. I knew some of the detail but not able to package it so well! I'd certainly consider one 1) if I could afford. Having just splurged on a Yeti 1.8 because SWMBO did not like the MINI Clubman leaves funds a little sparse! 2) if it was acceptable to drive, and to convey up to 2x boxer dogs:)
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>> 14. The T Spirit has 16^ alloys vs 15^ wheels on T3 (steel) alloys(T4). The
>> turning circle is 1.8 meters greater as a result on the T Spirit.
This is one of my pet gripes about modern cars. I love all the toys and gadgets you get on higher spec cars (tried the Yaris reverse camera and loved it) but they so often put silly alloys on that have all the downsides you mention, plus often more expensive to replace tyres. Oh, and these very low profile tyres tend to be awful with speed bumps and potholes.
Of course, you can downgrade them after purchase, but it costs lots more and insurance companies start being silly...
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Just ordered up four Michelin Energy tyres for the Prius, being fitted tomorrow. The car is also on 16", and they are £96.50 each fully fitted, after a word or two of negotiation, which contrasts with the £155 each mentioned in the first post.
Wonder if there's a difference in the actual tyre detail or the higher price is a mistake?
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Width makes a big difference too, Crankers. Both our cars run on 16" wheels, but 205 Primacies for the Volvo are about £85, whereas 225s for the LEC are more like £135.
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Yaris hybrid are 195/50 r16
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Serendipity, madf! I got one to test at 11am today, and have so far just driven from home to town - 20km.
I must do the check and see what version it is in YOUR terms, as here it is called either the 1.5 XR (or HS) HSD!
I'll look at the wheel size as well - I suspect they are 16s.
I'm also going to feather-foot it for a few days, to see how low I can keep the consumption.
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235 x 40 x 18 on the Volvo, but hopefully will avoid having to replace them before return
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>> Width makes a big difference too, Crankers. Both our cars run on 16" wheels, but
>> 205 Primacies for the Volvo are about £85, whereas 225s for the LEC are more
>> like £135.
Also size popularity and production volumes make a difference. If your Volvo is the same as mine was, it will be 205/55 16 which is a very common tyre size. Used also on the mk4 Golf GTI and many variants of the Focus, 3 series and others. I got a set of four P6000s for my Volvo for £260 fitted a couple of years back through Blackcircles.
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...four P6000s for my Volvo...
Shudder. Friends don't let friends buy P6000s. I learned that here.
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Does a hybrid actually cost less, per mile, in fuel alone, than a conventional car?
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>> Does a hybrid actually cost less, per mile, in fuel alone, than a conventional car?
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Look at the fuel consumption figures on the official tests.
A Ysris hybrid on 15" wheels (not a T Spirit) does 82mpg with an auto.
Name a petrol auto that averages 80mpg ..or 60mpg - around town...
Of course that's summer only. And motorway driving is less...And if you drive like an Autocar road tester you'll see 55...but then you are not 25 and a spotted yoof.. well I assume not:-)
Last edited by: madf on Thu 27 Sep 12 at 09:10
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First define your terms, Roger. If the 'conventional car' has a big petrol engine - as is still common outside Europe - then yes, it probably does: look at the ...h versions of the big Lexuses. If the alternative is a small diesel engine, and the car is for open-road use, the answer is more likely to be no.
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I changed from a Kia 2.0l petrol cee'd auto - over three years of rural and long motorway trips it averaged 37.7mpg (full brim-to-brim records). Currently drive an Auris HSD - to date in 8 months/10,000 miles of the same type of motoring it is averaging 55.0mpg. The rural motoring returns 60+, the motorway trips bring the average down. (A local subsidy on purchase here in Spain paid for the "hybrid" element)
Note - prior to the cee'd had a Golf 2.0 tdi dsg which averaged 50.4mpg with same type of motoring
Last edited by: lancara on Thu 27 Sep 12 at 09:33
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For me cost per mile is the only criterion. So called "green issues" are of no interest to me whatsoever, so if a hybrid is cheaper OK; if not - no way!
Of course, we are not in any position to consider a new car, so the practicalities of the two systems are irrelevant to us1
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Cost per mile absolute or just fuel, Roger? It gets more complex if you do it properly and account for depreciation, servicing, maintenance, insurance, tax, opportunity costs and myriad others no doubt.
There are calculators out there that tell you the overall cost using those factors, but of course they have to be a bit generalised.
There comes a point in the purchase game where you say "I like this car. I'll have one", stop thinking about it and enjoy it, and the quicker you get there the less stress there is in my view.
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For me cost per mile is the only criterion.
Really? Not cost of ownership too? I'd be concerned that the cost of owning a hybrid might outweigh any savings in fuel.
Calculating fuel only, and reducing everything, including fixed costs, to a single per-mile figure miss the point on opposite sides.
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There is the undefined and undefinable benefit to the owner of travelling without emissions for part of your journey. For us, we like leaving the drive in silence and the engine not running in the village at all on our daily commute. Ok, it starts up when we get going on the A14, but stops again as we enter town, so pedestrians and neighbours aren't getting - well, anything.
Most people wouldn't care two hoots about that, and I didn't before we got it, but it's nice once you have it.
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>>so pedestrians and neighbours aren't getting - well, anything.
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Just a fright at the silent approach ?
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The tyre noise and general air whoosherry is noticeable at anything over about 5mph.
Different matter in car parks, it's true.
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>> The tyre noise and general air whoosherry is noticeable at anything over about 5mph.
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>> Different matter in car parks, it's true.
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It is very different at 30 mph on the new road sufaces near me.
Ordinary vehices when coasting on such a sufface are very quiet.
The variatiion in diffent levels of noise from tyre makes is now noticeable.
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Well as we are on the verge of bangernomics - our car cost well under £3K, - depreciation is not the factor it would be for a more sizeable spend. Note I do not say "investment"
For us, the cost of servicing/repairs is quite important, as are insurance costs and VED. A basic car, such as our 04 Panda is nearly as economical one can get for these "distress purchases".
Given that in our range of car these costs are pretty much unchangeable, the only expense over which we have any control is fuel price and usage.
That is why I focus on cost of fuel & mpg, as the cost of getting in the car and actually driving somewhere on a particular day, looms as the most important, car driven, (!) cash-flow, which we can control, out of our funds.
Last edited by: Roger on Thu 27 Sep 12 at 13:59
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Ractis sounds like an orthopaedic ailment.
My P6000s are fine. But they are a manufacturer recommendation.
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Recommendation, Mike - or just what it came with from the factory? Mine came on four P6000s, but it wasn't till it got a full set of Primacy HPs (thanks to our own Gmac and SFD) that I realized how bad they were - for an S60 anyway. And the Michelins cost about 25 percent more but last about 40 percent longer. I expect they'll improve the LEC too, when the cheapies wear out.
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Maker's recommendation. Mind you, this was some years ago.
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Toyota Yaris Verso/Ractis - New Hybrid Yaris test drive - impressions. - mikeyb
