Motoring Discussion > Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise.	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Pat	Replies: 97

New Wed 24 Oct 12 06:49   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Pat

After hearing that premiums would rise for females due to recent changes, I had a pleasant surprise this week. The Mondeo is insured with Swift Cover and the comprehensive premium for renewal is just £217 for both of us to drive it but with me as the policy holder. I can't remember what we paid last year but it was just under £250. I did run the renewal through a comparison site and Tesco have come up with £201 including legal cover which isn't included with Swift cover. The renewal has also come through for the GSX1400 and that is just £66 but as it's currently advertised in Bikemart we'll see what happens before renewing that one. Anyone else found a pleasant surprise with their insurance premium? Pat Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Oct 12 08:05   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Videodoctor

The insurance changes don't come into force until 21st Dec 2012 so your insurance hasn't had time to go up yet. The new rules are mainly going to affect young drivers and i believe any one over 45 shouldn't see much difference in premium. I wait with baited breath!. Good news on your premium though(are you over 45? (cough) by any chance??) Regards Videodoctor. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Oct 12 08:09   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Pat

Just a smidgen;) Pat Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Oct 12 12:45   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Ted

>> Just a smidgen;) Laughs up sleeve....:-) Ted Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Oct 12 08:36   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - TeeCee

>> I wait with baited breath!. >> What are you planning to catch with that, basking sharks? ;-O Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Oct 12 12:23   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - PeterS

I had quite the reverse! A rather unpleasant surprise this week when the renewal notification came for my car - the premium had almost doubled to just over £800, though perhaps the fact that someone ran into the back of me when the car was less than 2 weeks old had something to do with it! A quick half hours shopping around came up with a premium from MB (Aviva actually) of just over £400, including three named drivers (one with a medically restricted licence and a couple of claims) and a lower excess. This was in part because they'd mirror the 7 years NCB I have on another car. When I called Admiral to say "don't bother renewing" they did the usual, lets see what discounts we can apply, and did come close in the end. But as I said to them, why would I give my business to you ? Interestingly this is the first time I've ever had a competitive quote from a manufacturer branded car insurance policy. Last year MB wanted a four figure sum (they quoted because I used their free 7 day cover). I didn't really understand it at the time - I'm a forty something finance director with a grey diesel mercedes estate. Surely that's the very definition of their core market ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Oct 12 12:43   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

Motor Insurers wish to have a balanced portfolio. What they need to do to their risk profile to balance it changes over time. So this year a 50 yr old in a Micra is attractive, next year a 35 yr old in a Merc is preferred. Their target market is the market that they need to add to balance their portfolio, that might not make the person you;d expect to be in the target market. And it changes. It is tediously provable that it is bad business sense and uneconomic to offer existing customers a deal as cheap as you will offer new customers. As an individual you will move from one portfolio area to another as you move house, change car, you get older, your car gets older etc. etc. So... Everybody should get competitive quotes every year. You should pay no attention to the discounts you get, or do not get. it doesn't matter if you get a 60% dicount or a 99% discount. You should simply compare what you must actually pay for the cover and service that you want. >>But as I said to them, why would I give my business to you ? If they do not offer the right premium and cover, then for no reason at all. But if they do, why wouldn't you? Because you had to ask for a requote? That would be naive. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Oct 12 13:02   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - PeterS

>> If they do not offer the right premium and cover, then for no reason at >> all. But if they do, why wouldn't you? Because you had to ask for a >> requote? That would be naive. >> Really just because I'd rather not do business with an organisation that tried to gouge an additional £400 out of me. You may see that as naive, and I realise it'll have negligible impact on them and so in many respects a 'pointless' stance to take. However since since there are plenty of other insurers out there it just helps me narrow down the list of companies to consider. Especially as in the case of Admiral, who don't particpate in any of the comparison sites to the best of my knowledge, since I now don't need to look at their site at all. I'm sure they've got complex models that show their approach does, on balance, generate more profit, and I don't have a problem with that. Doesn't mean it doesn't irk me though - a £100 or so increase and I'd have just paid up :-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Oct 12 13:11   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

>Really just because I'd rather not do business with an organisation that tried to gouge an additional £400 out of me Well, it is certainly true that if everybody took competitive quotes and then walked away from their current insurer and refused them a second chance, then renewal premiums would drop. Sadly though that isn't the case. in fact it is SOOOO not the case that insurers rely on people not moving and thus allow renewal premiums to be higher. However, since you have obtained their best quote, then you are getting cover that others are paying £600 for at a premium of £300, or whatever the figures are. If everybody select their insurer by ONLY objective consideration of over and price, and then reselected EVERY year, premiums woud drop for the most desirable risks. Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 24 Oct 12 at 13:13 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Oct 12 13:55   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Lygonos

>>Especially as in the case of Admiral, who don't particpate in any of the comparison sites to the best of my knowledge In reality they all do, the different 'trading styles' for what is ultimately the same business mean it can have various hooks to attract customers in:- "we aren't found on comparison sites", "we use UK based sales-centres", "our logo is yellow", "our logo is a Union Flag" etc. Market share is easier to grab if you have 7 or 8 'companies' to offer the illusion of choice - it works in the customer's interest if each company actively competes with each other, but as they probably share details and previous quotes it is unlikely to be as effective as 7 or 8 independent companies battling for your hard-earned. Just like soap powder choice - Ariel, Bold, Daz or Fairy? All Procter & Gamble. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Oct 12 13:56   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Alanovich

I switched to Admiral through a comparison site this year. Just before they started giving away toy meerkats. ;-( Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Oct 12 17:49   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Meldrew

Great result today. Last year I paid a premium which included a 10% discount for being a new customer and £25 discount for letting them quote me home and contents insurance which I didn't want, at the time. I have just had a renewal quote just £1 higher. It is not the lowest I have found but many of the cheapies only give 3 days a year in the EU. This company gives me as much as I need in 30 day blocks. Company name available if you e mail me; it isn't Direct Line and it is not on comparison sites either. Unless Mods permit a commercial name to be mentioned? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 25 Oct 12 08:43   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Zero

>> I switched to Admiral through a comparison site this year. Just before they started giving >> away toy meerkats. >> >> ;-( My mothers renewal (age concern) came in at 580 quid. Used a comparison site to get that down to 250 quid. (swift cover) The meerkat arrived yesterday after a series of e cards about its journey, and a travel log, they are really cute. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 25 Oct 12 07:23   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - L'escargot

I rang my insurer (Co-operative) this year and asked whether they could give me a better price than that in the reminder letter. They co-operated! They gave me a reduction of £173. The level of cover is exactly the same. Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 25 Oct 12 at 07:26 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 25 Oct 12 08:05   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Meldrew

That really IS a result! Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 25 Oct 12 08:56   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - L'escargot

>> That really IS a result! >> I still don't really understand it. They said my previous policy was obsolescent, and they now had a new policy which gave the same level of cover. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 25 Oct 12 09:47   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Falkirk Bairn

A couple of years ago, in letters to the DT, a chap was sorting out matters after the death of his father. The bungalow and modest contents were £1800 / yr for insurance - they had renewed automatically for 30 years. Renewed with same company (I would have gone elsewhere) for £300 / yr...........the old policy was just renewed and increased each year until it got out of control! Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 25 Oct 12 12:05   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Meldrew

Stupid premiums. I am sitting waiting for my renewal notice, mentioned above. Just had a flyer from Swinton offering me a £100 cash back; got on the phone and even tweaking the cash back to £138 they could not get within £10 of my renewal quote and they said they were using a comparison site themselves. The results for the same risk on confused gave an £800maximum quote and NFU was about the same. It is really hard work finding the real deal! Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 25 Oct 12 12:24   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - CGNorwich

At the moment low premiums for those prepared to seek out a competitive quote each year are effectively subsidised by those who don't bother. I am quite happy with this arrangement. Would those who complain about the system really like to pay substantially more so that the majority who can't be bothered to shop around can pay less? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 25 Oct 12 12:40   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - sherlock47

To combat, (or at least reduce), the uninsured motorist problem why cannot the government dream up up a regulation that the suppliers have to offer their lowest rate to customers :) Ooops - isn't somebody trying that on power utility charges - we will have to wait to see if that works:) You couldn't make it up! Last edited by: pmh on Thu 25 Oct 12 at 12:42 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 25 Oct 12 23:12   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Dr Prunesqualler

My recent renewal premium was £370. Using the meercat method got me a quote for £220, thus a saving of £150. I was so surprised I had to call the insurer to make sure I had answered all the questions correctly! My wife's car insurance is due on the same day as mine but her quote from my new company was £30 more than her current company. we are each named as named drivers for each others car. When I called my current insurer to tell them not to renew the policy they got awfully shirty and basically accused me of lying to the new company. Made me quite cross. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 07:19   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - L'escargot

Car insurance premiums fall, says AA. www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20030285 Last edited by: L'escargot on Fri 26 Oct 12 at 07:20 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 07:46   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - madf

My quotes for the Jazz I am buying fell 20% from my Yaris - both cars identical in size etc but the Jazz is worth 3x the market value of the Yaris..(which I reinsured in March) Work that out if you can? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 08:06   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Crankcase

Having recently done all this, I found that although I was offered cheaper premiums at a number of places, there was an element of "creep" in the actual cover provided, ranging from unexpected or increased excesses on the cheaper ones to reduced cover in specific areas, as compared in detail with my existing provider. The most common example was that with my provider it goes, in the event of a claim, to a main dealer for sorting, no questions asked, whilst with the cheaper ones more than one said that if I did that, it was of course ok sir, but there would be a further £150 excess to pay. That was a new one on me and I decided to avoid it. Another cheapy said there was £100 extra excess if the car audio kit was stolen, even if it was factory fit. Yes, I know the "main dealer" might use the same bodyshop in the end, but even so. As the difference between my provider and the best of of the others was only about £30 after I'd truly got it as like for like as I could, I stuck with where I was, partly as I'd never heard of the other one. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 08:17   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - L'escargot

>> My quotes for the Jazz I am buying fell 20% from my Yaris - both >> cars identical in size etc but the Jazz is worth 3x the market value of >> the Yaris..(which I reinsured in March) >> >> Work that out if you can? Different insurers? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 10:24   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - VxFan

Was recently told by an insurer that prices can be cheaper toward the end of the month than at the start because of their performance figures they have to submit. Especially if they haven't met expected targets. My insurance is due on the 4th June, and I started shopping around in May. Mid monthly prices were dearer than they were during the last week of May. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 12:24   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

>>Was recently told by an insurer that prices can be cheaper toward the end of the month >> than at the start because of their performance figures they have to submit By an insurer? I don't think so. They are not setting and using volatile rating. The underwriters would have a conniption. Someone was talking rubbish. Complete rubbish, with a capital "B". Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 26 Oct 12 at 12:24 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 12:31   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - VxFan

Sorry, I meant the underwriter can reduce the premium. www.vectra-c.com/forum/showthread.php?172599 www.vectra-c.com/forum/showthread.php?172599-Policy-Due-in-September&p=1895096&viewfull=1#post1895096 You'll first have to agree to accept forum rules before you can even read posts - daft or what? Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 26 Oct 12 at 12:33 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 12:39   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

>>Usually at the end of the month, the underwriters realise that they are behind target and tend to drop their prices. Dunno who he is, but what he says is complete and utter rubbish. e.g. If one insurer is behind, then another is in front. So presumably that insurer will be raising their end of month rates? Presumably they will say that you must take up the quote within 3 days or else they'll be closing cheap business in the beginning of a month? Complete and utter rubbish. Last edited by: Webmaster on Thu 1 Nov 12 at 09:15 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 13:16   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Meldrew

I understand that, like car dealers having quarterly targets to meet, some call centre operators have sales targets to meet and there can be a degree of price flexibility towards the end of a shift I have no direct experience of the latter and it may it may be an urban myth. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 13:21   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

Where there is a product involved then it’s fairly simple as the total cost is known. This is not the case with insurance where the total cost is predicted. So rather than a product where one wishes to sell 100 and so discounts the last 10, it is significantly more complex with insurance. Even were that not the case, the entire idea that insurance costs would be reduced towards the end of the month due to perceived low sales is a ludicrous business idea. Unless of course you're selling insurance as a broker or advisor and so it’s just a gimmick to get people to call you. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 13:43   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - VxFan

>> Dunno who he is Chris Knott Insurance is a medium-sized broker firm based in Hastings, East Sussex www.chrisknott.co.uk Even with his so called discount he offers members of Vec-C, he's yet to give me a competitive quote. Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 26 Oct 12 at 13:44 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 13:55   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

Well I would recommend care when passing his comments on as if they had any authority behind them. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 14:05   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - commerdriver

Mark, not sure if you are contradicting yourself, with the comment on reduced rates at the end of the month or whenever. I realise you have wide experience in this so can I ask a couple of dumb questions please? If the underwriters are setting the rates why don't we get a decent accurate quote for the risk first time every year? If it's a business and money making is the main aim why can't quotes vary by season / time or whatever. I tend to lean more towards it being money driven because of my last insurance purchase, insuring my 21 year old daughter for her second year of driving in her own name on her own car. First year in her own name was claim free (as were her previous years on her mum's insurance with the same company. My wife and I are named on her insurance and about 6 weeks before someone had run into the back of my car, stationary at lights with my wife at the wheel so no fault no claim but accident. Long story short we got the "non fault accident increases risk so that will be an extra 30% on daughters insurance" line. Told them where to go & told them we would not be reinsuring wife's car with them when it expires in December. 48 hours later got a call from another insurance company, part of the same group, offering to try to insure daughter cheaper saying, non fault accident doesn't count for anything, ended up insuring both daughter and wife, from December, for £200 less than previous company wanted to charge for daughter alone. Sorry for the long story but is that risk driven or money driven, what do you think? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 14:39   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

CD, Contradict myself? It happens, but not this time, I don't think. however, you have asked a pretty big question. The following is long, and boring, but you asked. I have over simplified and paraphrased. >>If the underwriters are setting the rates why don't we get a decent accurate quote for the risk first time every year? You do, but perhaps not the final figure. However, let me over simplify. Let us assume that there are only two types of people; the one who shops around and the one who doesn't. As a business I wish to get the most money I can. Therefore, why don't I change the non-shopper full whack, say £100, because in this case I have no competition. Whereas for the "Shopper" I am clearly in competition with everybody else, so perhaps I better charge him £80. However, how do I know which is which? Well, perhaps I give everybody the non-shopper rate of £100, and when the shopper rings to complain or get a requote, then I give him the shopper rate of £80. That way I am only giving the shopper rate to those of my clients who are shoppers, perhaps 20% although it depends on many things, and I maximise the revenue from my non-shoppers, perhaps 80%, by charging them the full rate. And that "shopper discount" is not worked out on the fly, there is already an underwriting approach that says "normal discount is 10%, but you may go to 20% if this factor is true and 25% if this factor is true. Now, if my client base became 95% shoppers, then I will give them all the shopper discount because that’s my selling point. Consequently, a bucket shop is cheaper because nobody expects differently, and everybody who goes there is seeking a deal, and so the percentage of shoppers is higher. However, for what is perceived to be a high-class insurer, less of my clients will be shoppers so I can charge them more. The final piece is that the same advertising which encourages potential clients to get a quote from you, is the same advertising that convinces existing customers that you’re still cheap. However, then one has to be a little circumspect with making new customer offers conspicuous when viewed by a renewal client. Then one needs to understand the cycle. A broker may well adopt different tactics towards the end of the month if he feels his sales are low. However, he is selling a product with a known cost (to him). For the insurer, the total cost of that product is an estimate (claims etc.). So the broker is dealing with a monthly sales cycle subject to weather, renewal dates, etc. etc. but is selling a product with no implications. The Insurer is selling a product where it will take him up to a year to know whether or not it was a good deal. A broker has no need to work out long term trends beyond his sales cycle. He just flexes his commission and admin charges as he feels the need. An Insurer needs to know over a longer period what is going on, and take more measured steps with implications. A broker has a target customer - anybody who lives within his catchment area. An insurer has a complex target customer because an insurer has to balance his portfolio across a risk/reward/revenue model. And not just for making money, but that's what his financing is based upon. So if his risk profile changes, it can have significant impact on his financing. Consequently, taking on a new customer has to be thought about. You can't just go offering cheap premiums because it’s the end of the month, you need to think about who your attracting. One can gain revenue from pretty much any risk profile, but one makes money from the financing and investment of that revenue prior to paying out claims. And that will all be based on that profile. Consequently insurers split their business up to show different personalities to the public and handle different risk profiles. Insurer a) may be targeting very low risk cases allowing them finance and invest differently. Whereas Insurer b) may be basing his business model on slightly higher risks and Insurer c) on raging nutters. It used to be that ONE Insurer adopted ONE profile. These days the insurers see the advantages of having many funds and many faces. Hence the reason that one real insurer may be the parent of several virtual insurers allowing a more granular approach to risk management and the opportunity to customise marketing approaches. Consequently someone with a non-fault accident may not sit within the profile of a), but may well suit the profile of b) or c). Finally an insurer may need to rebalance his portfolio. He will do that by selectively making types of risk more or less attractive to obtain more or less of that type of business. That is why sometimes things look like anomolies, but in fact are accidents of timing. Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 26 Oct 12 at 14:42 Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Fri 26 Oct 12 14:48   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - commerdriver

Thanks Mark, i appreciate the time that took. Just one more, follow up, question, on what basis does the line about a real non fault accident making another fault accident more likely work. I have heard it before but can find no publicly available information which backs it up, and i don't believe it has any basis of statistics or logic. Sorry, after this one you can go and get on with your day. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 14:57   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

>>on what basis does the line about a real non fault accident making another fault accident more likely work. A simple example; I have a non-fault accident but I am a good and careful driver, why? Perhaps I drive in a hazardous area. Perhaps I drive at a very busy time. Perhaps I drive in an area where there are lots of young, accident prone people. Who knows? The truth is that it will be some combination of factors. But, perhaps whatever the factor was that encouraged my first accident to happen, will do it again. Thus, it may be considered that someone with a non-fault accident is subject to a risk that shouuld be balanced by premium, even if that risk is not their own carelessness. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 15:21   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - commerdriver

Mark, i cannot agree that "perhaps it will happen again" is any logical basis to increase an insurance premium. It does not really make my wife more of a risk than anyone else to be run into from behind at a set of traffic lights. Even if you accept the "perhaps" argument, a non fault accident in a car they did not insure which gets repeated is another non fault accident which they incur no cost in, why increase the premium. There is no basis for saying it makes the probability of cost to that insurance company any more likely. I believe it is another way to try for money which can be bypassed if the insured objects and threatens to go elsewhere. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 15:32   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

>>i cannot agree that "perhaps it will happen again" is any logical basis to increase an insurance premium You may or may not agree. And it wasn't quite what I wrote, although I take your point. Nonetheless "perhaps it will happen again" is a vital statement, and judging the degree of likelihood inherent in any particular occurence of the word "perhaps" is the very foundation of risk assessment.* What would you prefer was used, rather than the perceived or statistically likelihood of a loss? Premiums can be flavoured by desires for portfolio growth, portfolio balancing, or revenue growth, but the foundation is risk. *together will potential impact or severity. Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 26 Oct 12 at 15:36 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 15:39   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - commerdriver

I would rather my insurance premiums were based on statistical likelihood not on perceived likelihood. In the case is referred to in my long note, the two companies involved were Elephant and Admiral, both of whom have and do use the "it makes it more likely" argument in other situations and both of whom, in my case Admiral, can waive that if it means losing business. There is no real provable link, please correct me if I am wrong, between a no fault accident and actual increased likelihood of extra cost for an insurer. Perhaps is not a term actuaries can really put a risk value on. Last edited by: commerdriver on Fri 26 Oct 12 at 15:40 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 15:39   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

Also bear in mind that insurance risk assessment is not based upon what happens to a single person. It is based upon events that occur within a profile of risk, so many, many individuals. It is not possible to say why your wife is more of a risk, or indeed if she is more of a risk. However, with a non-fault accident she is part of a group which statistically DO represent more of a risk. She pays a lower premium because she is married. She pays a lower premium for her age. Not because of HER age and HER marital satus, but because those factors make her a member of a profile of risk which statistically represents a lower risk to the insurer. Her AGE is not relevant to HER driving ability, it is relevant to the group of people to which she belongs. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 15:41   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

>>There is no real provable link, please correct me if I am wrong, between a no fault accident and actual increased likelihood of extra cost for an insurer. I don't know what you want here. I have told you the reasoning. Understand it is statistically judging a group, not an individual. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 15:44   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - commerdriver

Crossed posts, can you point me at publicly available statistics which show the increased risk, I do not believe they exist. I understand the point about risk groups rather than personal risk, I just don't believe there is a connection. The other things you mention like age, marital status, profession can be backed up by published statistics, the non fault increases likelihood thing cannot, or at least not anywhere I can find. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 15:52   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

>>can you point me at publicly available statistics which show the increased risk No, sorry I can't. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 15:53   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - commerdriver

Thanks for your efforts and time , I know it must have seemed a bit pedantic, sorry Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 15:58   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

No problem, you're welcome. try this... forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3305178&page=1 Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 26 Oct 12 at 16:02 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 16:05   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

or this... www.guardian.co.uk/money/blog/2012/feb/15/car-insurance-no-fault-claims-elephant Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 26 Oct 12 at 16:05 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 16:14   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - commerdriver

Thanks for those Mark, My point is, and my opinion hasn't changed 1. I know it happens and what the companies say. 2. Admiral told me this summer that they don't increase premiums because of a no fault and the premium they quoted at the level they quoted didn't include anything (yeah, I know, they lied one of the cases you just posted is Admiral). 3. Whatever basis they do it on is NOT statistical there are no available statistics which prove an increased risk. If the insurance companies have such statistics why are they not published, they are for everything else. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 16:49   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - sherlock47

I just do not know why you cannot accept what Mark is saying regards risk following a 'no fault' claim. To me it is obvious that the history of where you have been in the situation that resulted in a no fault claim actually shows that you behave in a manner that results in an increased risk. Hence higher premiums. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 16:56   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - commerdriver

Totall accept what Mark has said, point is there is NOTHING to prove a statistical link it is all perhaps Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 17:07   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Mapmaker

CD>>Mark, i cannot agree that "perhaps it will happen again" is any logical basis to increase >>an insurance premium. It does not really make my wife more of a risk than anyone else to >>be run into from behind at a set of traffic lights. Some people are driven into the back of regularly. They're bad drivers. Somebody once drove into the back of me; he was driving too close to me and not paying enough attention, so it was definitely his fault, but I have no doubt that my own sudden change of plans at that moment - whilst also being distracted by something happening outside the car - made the accident happen. If I'd really been paying attention to him then I'd not have decided to turn at that point. Some people make a habit of that sort of thing, so they're far more likely to be run into from behind. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 17:08   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Zero

>> Mark, i cannot agree that "perhaps it will happen again" is any logical basis to >> increase an insurance premium. It does not really make my wife more of a risk >> than anyone else to be run into from behind at a set of traffic lights. Yes it does. There is proof that your wife travels in an area where there is an accident risk because it has already happened. Therefore she is a higher risk to insure.. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 17:19   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - commerdriver

>> Yes it does. There is proof that your wife travels in an area where there >> is an accident risk because it has already happened. Therefore she is a higher risk >> to insure.. >> So because i once saw an elephant I am more likely to see an elephant again no logical link no extra risk. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 17:23   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

>>So because i once saw an elephant I am more likely to see an elephant again No, you are not. But include you in a group of people who have all seen an elephant before, and one of you is. Of the 100, there's some reason why you've seen an elephant. You live near a Zoo, you like safari's, you watch a lot of zebras etc. etc. but perhaps also a once in a life time event. I don't know what it is, but whatever it is is a factor which exists in the lives of those 100 people, at least once, but seemingly not in the lives of the others, not even once. Are you sure your disbelief is objective, and not rather driven by your own premiums and frustration, and your own feelings about your wife as a risk? I mean no offence. Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 26 Oct 12 at 17:24 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 17:28   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - nyx2k

i spent about 10years in insurance before trading and i hate to admit it but No FM2R is bang on the mark for how the risks are assessed in some cases. a no fault accident puts you in a group more likely to claim so you get charged more. of course its moneymaking but that's the system they use and has been for a very long time Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 17:35   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

>>i spent about 10years in insurance Doing what, may I ask? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 17:45   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - nyx2k

I was in accounts/ credit control management so nothing exciting im afraid. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 17:50   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

An area that, whilst totally worthy of respect, is not known for its knowledge of underwriting methodologies and strategy. How about you stick to acquiring the world's classic vehicles and I carry the insurance burden? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 17:59   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - nyx2k

No FM2R. are you really saying im not welcome to join in on any discussion. i don't know why ive riled you but gfy and i'll speak to the less rude and original core of posters before low rent mouthpieces like you were welcomed into the forum Reply to this message | Report message       4

New Fri 26 Oct 12 18:02   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

>>No FM2R. are you really saying im not welcome to join in on any discussion. No, I'm not saying that. Its entirely up to you. How did you get that from what I said? I merely felt that you may be unwisely commenting on something which was outside your area of expertise. Stating that you have 10 years of experience is rather setting yourself up, is it not? >>before low rent mouthpieces like you were welcomed into the forum Before? Now really, that's not likely is it. Unless you ever owned a pink Lada? Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 26 Oct 12 at 18:07 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 17:36   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - commerdriver

>> i spent about 10years in insurance before trading and i hate to admit it >> but No FM2R is bang on the mark for how the risks are assessed in >> some cases. a no fault accident puts you in a group more likely to claim >> so you get charged more. of course its moneymaking but that's the system they use >> and has been for a very long time >> Fine where are the statistics to prove it? They don't exist I know it's what the insurance companies do, I accept that, they chose not to for my daughter & wife's insurance after I told them I was leaving There is no statistical basis for doing it and while some of you obviously think it's logical, I do not. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 17:44   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

>they chose not to for my daughter & wife's insurance after I told them I was leaving Actually I think you'll find that Company A flagged a higher risk opportunity to their more aggressively geared brother. Quite smart, really. You asked me if there were publicy available statistics I could point you to. I said I could not. The issue is not their existance, it is their public availability. Do you realise that insurers have statistics on what colour car is most likely to have an accident on a tuesday, not merely cases like yours? An insurer is equal parts statistics, marketing and financial management. It is not, not ever, guesswork, personal preference or subjectivity. There is no conspiracy theory, they are not after you. I also think you've taken a "religious" stand on this and have decided what you wish to believe. They are there to make money. They are a business. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 17:56   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - commerdriver

>> Actually I think you'll find that Company A flagged a higher risk opportunity to their >> more aggressively geared brother. Quite smart, really. Mark, the company that didn't charge for the no fault was Admiral they do in loads of other cases is it a risk for them or not. Anyway I appreciate they have loads of statistics but I remain suspicious that nobody, nowhere, in no forum academic or commercial has any public statistics on this one. I am not convinced anyone is out to get me or whatever Let's leave it there, not worth arguing about, I will keep my opinion & anyone who wants can think I am wrong, nice to get it out and aired here. Again thanks for your time. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 19:39   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

>>anyone who wants can think I am wrong I don't think you are wrong, but I think you need two things; Firstly, on insurance and everything else, always get a quote at renewal. Always. Having checked the cover, ignore everything but the size of the cheque you need to write. Second, get everyone else to do the same. It doesn't really matter why the insurer does it, whether or not its justified, or whether or not you like it. It doesn't matter how large the discount, or how large the loading, it matters only how much you must pay for similar cover. There's no legislation required to sort out insurers, or solictiors, or authorised repairers, satellite providers, premier league ticket prices, or anything else. Just refuse to toe the line and don't accept a lesser product just for the lower cost. Insist on a decent cover for the price that you will accept. Get enough people to do the same. And then watch the suppliers all behave themselves. In the meantime, remember what someone else said the other day, as long as you're the only one doing it, there's significant advantage to be gained by being subsidised by the ones who do not. I shall go back and check who said it, because its a smart thing to remember, I think it was CGNorwich. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 27 Oct 12 10:40   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - L'escargot

>> No FM2R is bang on the mark .......... Good pun! Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 17:26   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Zero

>> >> Yes it does. There is proof that your wife travels in an area where >> there >> >> is an accident risk because it has already happened. Therefore she is a higher >> risk >> >> to insure.. >> >> >> So because i once saw an elephant I am more likely to see an elephant >> again no logical link no extra risk. Now you are trying to bring in the surreal to defend your argument. Now for some real evidence. After my last accident I checked the place where it happened. There had been three there before. Now if an insurer knows I drive there they are going to assume there is a larger risk because in fact there is and ithere was. Now for your elephant. One could assume that you are on holiday in an african game park, or you live there, so there IS a chance you will see another. There are very few unique events in life. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 17:36   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - WillDeBeest

To say there is no statistical basis for this is daft: the one thing you can be sure of with insurers is that they have statistics up to here about everything. And of course they don't publish them because that's their business: an insurer with a more comprehensive risk model has a competitive advantage, so the data and analyses are closely guarded. You might as well argue that Coke and Pepsi must be the same because the makers don't publish their recipes to prove otherwise. Don't get hung up on causation: having a non-fault accident doesn't make you have another. It's about correlation: more non-fault claims tend to come from people who've had one before, for reasons like those mentioned above. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 17:42   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - commerdriver

>> To say there is no statistical basis for this is daft: the one thing you >> can be sure of with insurers is that they have statistics up to here about >> everything. And of course they don't publish them because that's their business but they publish statistics about young drivers, accidents in specific areas, accident risks of particular employments. There is no commercial or business sensitivity about these statistics so why not publish them, In my opinion the statistics do not exist. As I have said I know they do this but there is no logical reason why being stationary at lights when someone runs into you from behind after you have been stopped for several seconds, creates any statistical likelihood of another accident. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 17:57   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - WillDeBeest

They publish high-level generalisations to amuse the public and the Daily Telegraph, but mainly as a marketing exercise and through the ABI, not as individual companies. The real stuff they use for making decisions is much more sensitive and never sees the light of day. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 17:58   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Zero

>> but they publish statistics about young drivers, accidents in specific areas, accident risks of particular >> employments. There is no commercial or business sensitivity about these statistics Ah but there is. They are used for for advertising purposes under the guise of social responsibility. >> them, In my opinion the statistics do not exist. I know they exist. I have worked on some of the systems behind them. General Accident, Norwich Union, Direct Line, Zurich insurance to name but a few. >> As I have said I know they do this but there is no logical reason >> why being stationary at lights when someone runs into you from behind after you have >> been stopped for several seconds, creates any statistical likelihood of another accident. It creates every logical reason. You are not going to get rammed up the backside very often at 50 mph on the bypass now are you. Last edited by: Zero on Fri 26 Oct 12 at 17:59 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 18:02   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - commerdriver

Out of interest Z , what did you actually do in our wonderful company, I always had the impression you were a hardware & systems person rather than applications. For what it's worth I am an IT Application Architect. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 18:08   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Zero

I did lots, I started off as a Hardware and systems person, and at the end ended up as a Service Manager/Project manager. But at one point I was a DB2 / Storage specialist and was involved in some of the first SAP / Mainframe /DB2 projects. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 18:09   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

>>and was involved in some of the first SAP / Mainframe /DB2 projects Is that where I knew your name from? Working with Diagonal? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 18:18   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Zero

Doubtful, never worked with them, mostly PwC. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 18:22   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

I did some of the last major R/2, the first ever UK R/3, first UK PP-PI, first complete PP-PI, largest FI-CO and fastest FI/CO/SD, also largest AM. Perhaps it was with PWC, although I thought it was another. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 18:38   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Zero

I worked on the first Uk projects where SAP R3 was implemented with DB2 on Mainframe for the Database server, with the Application server on RS6K SP. One was a gassy place and one was a japanese electronics company. I think they were both PwC contracts. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 19:00   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - sooty123

Strewth has this been turned into some sort of computer forum?! :) Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 19:07   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Zero

We are all experts in thread drift here. None better than those found in these forum pages. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 19:15   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - nyx2k

im with zero, wouldn't be the same without Massive thread drift. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 19:33   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - crocks

While we're drifting...did you get your pond dug nyx? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 19:52   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - nyx2k

i hired a pond company to build a 9ft square pond total 4ft deep all over. 2ft below ground and 2ft about ground in concrete and brick. now have 3 big koi in there. had them sort plumbing and filtering and now landscaped a bit it looks fabulous. had it installed at bottom of garden so had to run a trench for electrics and a pipe for outside tap at bottom of garden to help water plants down there. i tried digging myself but after first full day i was in bed for a week so wife hired a local company and very good price. actually have an indoor aquarium company coming round on Sunday to install a new 5ft tank already cycled and ready to take to rainbow fish and cories we picked out Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 27 Oct 12 05:27   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Pat

So glad you got the pond done, you will love it! Pat Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 27 Oct 12 10:34   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - nyx2k

yes, its lovely watching the fish move around, very calming. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 19:31   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

I didn't do the electronics company, but I did do a gassy place. In fact I did two, both British, one with bottles one with chemicals. There weren't many that jumped at the chance to do it on DB2, I can't remember why. Oh, wait, yes I can, it was crap, that was it. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 19:37   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Zero

>> There weren't many that jumped at the chance to do it on DB2, I can't >> remember why. Oh, wait, yes I can, it was crap, that was it. The mainframe was not a natural team player with open systems in those days. Quite sulky when asked to share in fact. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 19:58   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

I remember for one crowd installing a system which was estimated to need a 50GB database server, but of course the largest disks you could get at the time were 2GB. You could stick it on a bleeding laptop these days. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 20:51   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Kevin

>The mainframe was not a natural team player with open systems in those days. >Quite sulky when asked to share in fact. Not helped by the fact that TCP/IP was an (expensive) option for mainframes, very few open systems talked SNA and data networks were still mostly leased lines or X.25. I'm ashamed to admit that at one time I was probably the only person in the UK who could get TCP/IP over LU6.2 over X.25 working between mainframe and RS6K. All while living in a shoebox in't middle o' road. And for the record, DB2 was sorted many years ago. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 21:06   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Zero

>> >The mainframe was not a natural team player with open systems in those days. >> >Quite sulky when asked to share in fact. >> >> Not helped by the fact that TCP/IP was an (expensive) option for mainframes, very few >> open systems talked SNA and data networks were still mostly leased lines or X.25. >> >> I'm ashamed to admit that at one time I was probably the only person in >> the UK who could get TCP/IP over LU6.2 over X.25 working between mainframe and RS6K. >> All while living in a shoebox in't middle o' road. >> >> And for the record, DB2 was sorted many years ago. We channel attached the SP to the mainframe. In fairness, DB2 on mainframe was never bad, merely constrained by the architecture and OS. Last edited by: Zero on Fri 26 Oct 12 at 21:07 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Oct 12 21:10   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - WillDeBeest

This is making me nostalgic because I'm an alumnus too. My /2 was OS, not DB. It wasn't crap - eventually - but it was a classic example of winning the argument (with Windows) and losing the fight. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 27 Oct 12 04:28   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

I had a PDP with an RD52 disk in my control at one point. As near as I can recall thats about a 50mb system disk on a commercial system. What rubbish they were, although I loved VMS and MicroVAXes. Although even VMS got irritating after V5.4 I will die in my bed still remembering the error message "saveset is not first element of list". It loosley translates to "I'm broken, its your fault, you've done something wrong, but I'm not telling you what". Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 27 Oct 12 at 04:28 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 27 Oct 12 17:34   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Kevin

>My /2 was OS, not DB. WDB, Isn't OS/2 Warp still running in older ATMs? It was the de-facto platform for them at one time. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Oct 12 07:24   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Zero

>> >My /2 was OS, not DB. >> >> WDB, >> >> Isn't OS/2 Warp still running in older ATMs? It was the de-facto platform for them >> at one time. Nah, went out the window a few years after IBM sold the ATM business to Diebold. Windows CE was then employed for a bit (quite funny to see the blue screen of death on the screen - unless its you that needs to get money out). Now mostly Linux. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Oct 12 08:13   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - WillDeBeest

OS/2 persisted in some airport checkin systems until very recently. Aviation in general is a very conservative market, always favouring what works over what's merely new or clever. Now it's having to deal with the end of XP, the product where Microsoft finally got it right, and take a step into the unknown. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Oct 12 05:50   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - Falkirk Bairn

>>The mainframe was not a natural team player with open systems in those days. Quite sulky when asked to share in fact It was an academic @ Edinburgh Uni in about 1987 that managed to get the mainframe and ethernet to talk but for some reason it could manage a maximum of around 300 connections Mainframe not speaking / Biggest or most expensive PC? New customer of mainframe had one installed at St Andrews Sq HQ, all went well installing except it would support only 1 user, it took days to figure out what the issue was at the time. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Oct 12 08:44   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - commerdriver

>> Biggest or most expensive PC? New customer of mainframe had one >> installed at St Andrews Sq HQ, all went well installing except it would support only >> 1 user, it took days to figure out what the issue was at the time. >> Embarassing, considering how close they were to the techies Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 27 Oct 12 18:27   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - No FM2R

I missed this question... >> a non fault accident in a car they did not insure which gets repeated is another non fault accident which they incur no cost in, why increase the premium. A few reasons; Because there is cost involved in managing even a non-fault accident. Soemtimes non-faults are outrageously contested by the other party. Because eventually one of them might be with an uninsured driver and thus cause payout. Because someone in the car may be injured when the TP has gone missing. etc. etc. And lets not forget..... -- because they can, and because their target competitors do, there is no significant revenue lost by doing so. But like I said, you need to ignore all of this. It doesn't really matter. It may be of interest, but I'm not sure its of value. The only thing that matters is the cover you get and the money you pay. I don't care if the insurer gives me every bad driver loading they can think of. I don't care if they denigrate my risk, I don't care about their methodology. I just want to know what I must pay. Its never a religious matter for me, its a financial matter. If its cheaper, who cares what they think of me. Provided the service/cover equation works, of course. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Oct 12 22:28   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - WillDeBeest

Pleasant surprise here too: the Volvo's insurance runs out at the end of the month, so today I checked with Aviva what they'd charge for adding it to the multicar policy I started for the LEC in June. They'd given me a 'guaranteed' price at the time, but what they actually asked for was not only lower than that, but lower than the comparison quote I'd just got online for a single car policy for the S60 alone: £142 for seven months, or the equivalent of a shade over £240 a year. That's with a £150 excess, courtesy car, legal cover and personal business use for Mrs Beest; and Aviva will cover garage loan cars, which Tesco, bizarrely, will not. Anyway, pleased with that because none of my previous annual policies in eight years of owning this car has come to less than £300. If only something - anything! - else could get less expensive too. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Oct 12 13:33   Insurance renewal, pleasant surprise. - legacylad

Equally pleased here. I have used IAM Surety these past few years, having always compared with other insurers. Today, after using the Martin Lewis recommended comparison sites et al, they reviewed my quote and reduced it to £213. Not bad for my 8yo 330Ci, £350 total excess, protected NCD, courtesy car, legal aid and windscreen cover.I didn't really want legal aid but felt it a bit cheeky to ask them to reduce it further! And my breakdown cover remains the same as last year, £38, with AutoAid. Reply to this message | Report message