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My neighbour is looking to replace his 6 year old Audi quatro estate with a new one. The problem is it comes with a spacesaver spare wheel, the wheel well is only big enough for a spacesaver. He tows a caravan and thinks that if he has to use the spacesaver whilst towing it would be unsafe if not illegal. Is he right about the legality ? Can anyone suggest a way round this ?
Last edited by: maltrap on Fri 16 Nov 12 at 17:41
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Buy a full size wheel and carry it in the 'van?
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Thanks Tom, i suuggested this but he didn't fancy the idea.
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Can't he mount the spare wheel on the caravan sort of on the towing thingy ? (don't pretend to know anything about caravans)
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Caravans have an underbody frame to hold the spare, would be easy enough to bolt a second frame on and put a suitable proper spare for the car in it.
We need a concerted effort from all motorists fed up with this gunk or wheelbarrow spare wheel lark....simply don't buy a car, new or used unless it has a proper equivalent size if not full size spare.
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Mounting the spare wheel on the towing bracket is not a good idea- upsets nose wheel weight.. and could make caravan unstable..
We used to take a spare wheel for our caravan and put it inside the caravan on the floor secured with bungee cables to the cooker/fridge supports.
Much safer..
I speak as a former caravanner...
The weight loading on a space saver wheel pulling a caravan would almost certainly exceed its design tolerances if fitted to the rear wheel of the towing car...
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I speak as a former caravanner.
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in Heaven over one sinner that repenteth...
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Some seem to be saying that the space saver on many cars is to save some weight and reduce CO2 emissions. My heavy Passat CC has a full size spare - happens to be a proper alloy to match the other wheels too. And emissions are fairly low at 129g/km of CO2 for a manual 170PS diesel weighing quite a bit.... the extra weight of the tyre is irrelevant.
Previous VW, also a Passat, in 2000 had a full size alloy spare too.... The VW before that was a Golf GTI and the spare was also a full size spare alloy 16".... there's a pattern.
Why do other manufacturer's claim this is for CO2 emission reasons? The weight of the tank of fuel or the driver must make more of a difference.
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Unit cost savings, and the 5kg or so weight reduction may be enough to drop 121g/km to 120g/km for some cars when tested: ISTR the newest Civic diesel is claimed to manage 1mpg more because of tiny aerofoils above the rear wheels.
If you'd specced 19" wheels you'll probably find there would be a spacer-saver or goo can.
My Forester had a 5th alloy under the boot.
My old Civic (W-reg) had a full-size wheel albeit steel rather than alloy.
Swift Sport has goo, and the space-saver-sized cavity beneath the floor for other Swifts is smaller due to suspension/twin-exhausts.
I notice Grand Vitaras have goo-cans now, and have lost the boot-mounted F/S spare.
FRV has a space saver, which I'm happy with as losing 4" of boot depth would impinge upon practicality.
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I've put a full spare tyre in the Focus.Lost some bootspace.I don't care it is worth it.
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My Grand Vit has the full size wheel bolted securely on the back door, and that's just how I like it. I think the Note has a space saver.
A lot of the Club Cars have goo and pump. I won't touch it, I just turn National out. If you've had to clean a boot tray where the goo has leaked, you wouldn't touch it either !
One aspect about carrying a car spare in the caravan is that you might get a flat on an excursion away from the site and realise the spare was still with the van !
Ted
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The Mazda6 has a very deep spare wheel well... with a fitted plastic cover/spacer under the boot carpet and a spacesaver spare nestling at the bottom of the well. It's not saving any space, so what's that all about?
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Fri 16 Nov 12 at 22:58
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Don't know because the Mazda6 I had until 2011 had a full size alloy in the boot. Space in the middle of the spare taken up by the standard subwoofer.
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>> The Mazda6 has a very deep spare wheel well... with a fitted plastic cover/spacer under
>> the boot carpet and a spacesaver spare nestling at the bottom of the well. It's not saving any space, so what's that all about?
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By not being there, it is saving..... weight and cost.
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>>By not being there, it is saving..... weight and cost.
Is the weight of a spare wheel any more of an impact than a heavier driver or passengers?
I've often wondered about people who spend money on making cars faster, lighter, whatever and then carry a few extra kgs themselves. Surely it is extra weight, wherever it is?
If that's so, does it mean that lighter people without passengers will always get better performance and MPG than a heavier person? (all other things being equal).
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Some hackers will spend thousands getting a bike that's 5 or 6 lbs lighter than their current one.
It's cheaper and easier just to take some Sennokot for a week.
Or get a little fitter.
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>> Some hackers will spend thousands getting a bike that's 5 or 6 lbs lighter than
>> their current one.
Just means they have to cycle a lot further to get the same amount of exercise :)
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>> >>By not being there, it is saving..... weight and cost.
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>> Is the weight of a spare wheel any more of an impact than a heavier
>> driver or passengers?
Not at all.
But car's wouldn't be tested for consumption / co2 with the world's heaviest family on board would it....
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>>But car's wouldn't be tested for consumption / co2 with the world's heaviest family on board would it....
So, and this might be a daft question, are such tests done with the lightest driver they can find?
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Tests are carried out in the lab and the rules are here.
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLEG:2007R0715:20080731:EN:PDF
Looks like they use a mass of 75kg for the driver in their calculations.
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>>One aspect about carrying a car spare in the caravan is that you might get a flat on an excursion away from the site and realise the spare was still with the van !
It wouldn't matter, you could use the space-saver.
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>> I speak as a former caravanner.
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>> I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in Heaven over one sinner that
>> repenteth...
>>
>>
I might recant when I reach 70 and two a caravan behind a Morris Minor at 30 mph.. down nice busy roads at the height of the summer season in rush hour...
"Please God, make me good ... but not yet"
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Can't say I've noticed any measureable difference in mpg in any cars I've had whether they're fully laden or otherwise. Putting stuff on the roof makes a heck of a difference. For what little it's worth I always run my back tyres at roughly halfway between the recommended unladen pressure and the fully laden one. Couple of times a week it'll be chokka with stuff and others it's empty. Too much faff to be changing the pressures all the time.
I keep thinking I'd like a full size spare but then the front tyres of my car are a different size to the back ones so which size would I get?
:-)
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>>I always run my back tyres at roughly halfway between the recommended unladen pressure and the fully laden one.
I pretty much never know what pressure the tyres should get, so I guess. Like my BMW, I'm pretty sure its around 35ish, so it gets 35 all round. I've done 50,000 odd in it and never noticed particular tyre wear or handling misbehaviour.
Seems to my uneducated mind that that the balance of pressures is more relevant than the actual measure. Within reason, of course.
Also, considering that when I first started driving I would never go out without a good spare because of the high incidence of punctures, yet these days, other than the idiot wheels/tyres on the Phaeton, I doubt I've had 5 punctures in the last 15 years and so any old thing which will get the car home is fine.
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Yesterday I had the spare wheels out of both the Mondeo and the X Type.
The pristine 14 year old , never used ,Mondeo wheel was OK it handle.
The 225/45 17 alloy with a newish tyre on was quite a different beast.
Just a few years hence, in the event of a flat tyre I will be calling for help to avoid a wheel change possibly causing me serious health problems.
So change a lightweight space saver or freeze to death waiting for help ? :-(
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>>So change a lightweight space saver or freeze to death waiting for help ? :-(
Now there's an outstandingly excellent point I have never considered before.
Thank you, that'll be a phone call to the father.
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Car + caravan + spacesaver = annual payment for comprehensive recovery / assistance package
Anyone see a problem with that equation?
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>> Car + caravan + spacesaver = annual payment for comprehensive recovery / assistance package
>>
>> Anyone see a problem with that equation?
I foresee a new clause on breakdown insurance: We will not be liable for recovery requiring the fitting of a spare wheel unless a suitable spare is carried.
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Already there
Exclusions in Aviva Breakdown cover:
Any costs incurred as a result of you failing to carry a serviceable spare tyre and wheel appropriate to your vehicle, caravan or trailer.
Note: motorised vehicles that are manufactured without the provision of a spare wheel will be considered on their individual merits.
Assistance in changing a wheel is only covered within your breakdown entitlement if you are carrying a serviceable spare as specified above.
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Thats always been there to cover those who don't have a serviceable spare wheel, even tho the car had one when new.
The AA or RAC do not refuse or require extra costs for vehicles equipped from new with a space saver or goo. To do so would be commercial suicide, given that they get get good money from supplying services to the manufacturers of said cars.
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Agree but there is no need of an additional clause should they change their view. the existing one will do just fine. By the way what exactly do they do for you if you have a car with no spare, a badly damaged tyre and a can of gunk?
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sat 17 Nov 12 at 23:28
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By the way what exactly do they do
>> for you if you have a car with no spare, a badly damaged tyre and
>> a can of gunk?
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This happened to me about 3 weeks ago CG. I saw the tyre had been kerbed, especially as the wheel trim was 20 ft back down the street. Fiesta with no spare ( or jack & brace ) . I could have removed the tyre, taken it somewhere for a new one and re-fitted it. Too much like hard work..and would have meant me leaving it on my trolley jack in a Salford back street.....no chance.
So, as there was a cafe opposite, a bun and coffee beckoned together with a call to National tyres who arrived half an hour later, fitted a new tyre and got everything right. I didn't even get me hands dirty.
Way to go !
Ted
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It's exactly what we do, and whatever type of spare was in the boot at the time I'm confident Gem would recover the car, caravan and get us all to our destination.
Pat
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>> So change a lightweight space saver or freeze to death waiting for help ? :-(
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Well the one you take off will be a full size wheel, so unless you kick it off the hub and roll it into the ditch (OK if you've got Lud's budget) you still have a heavy wheel to handle.
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Taking another point of view, I'm not sure why there's so much fuss about spare wheels.
As there are a large number of faults which can stop a motor car, and motorists don't carry spares for all of these potential failures, why should there be a full sized spare wheel? Especially when a significant number of motorists don't have the first clue how to safely fit a spare wheel, it seems a pointless exercise.
It's only a hangover of historical practice.
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>>It's only a hangover of historical practice.
Absolutely.
Bit like so many of the "essential" home maintenance tasks. Oil level, coolant level, tyre pressure all that sort of stuff.
Not that one should ignore these things, but they require a fraction of the attention they required 20 years ago.
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>>It's only a hangover of historical practice.
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Maybe a return to another historical practice ?
An optional spare on the boot like the Rover 2000 ?
Many cars have limited rear vision so employ a rear view camera rather than those historical bits of glass stuck on the windscreen? It must give you a much clearer view and reassurance that you still have a spare.
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I think you make a good point henry;
If we were starting from here, and didn't have the historical hangover, would we bother with sticking mirrors on the side of vehicles, when we could use cheap digital cameras to give us a rearward view?, or even a 360 degree view?
Or, better still, would we allow a fallible human anywhere near the controls at all? As we know, accidents are predominantly caused by human error rather than mechanical or electrical failure.
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>>I keep thinking I'd like a full size spare but then the front tyres of my car are a different size to the back ones so which size would I get? :-)
>>
Dear Uncle Super Mechanic
I have a full size matching spare but my tyres are asymmetric so I have a 50/50 chance of the spare being for the "right " side.
I have seen no instructions that I should limit my speed etc with a tyre on the wrong way round.
Am I legal / should I stay below 50 mph. :-)
Signed - Sleepless in Surrey :-(
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>> The weight loading on a space saver wheel pulling a caravan would almost certainly exceed its design tolerances if fitted to the rear wheel of the towing car...
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I don't understand this statement. The loading on the tow hook will be around 50 kg or so, i.e. less than an adult sitting in the rear seat. Why shouldn't a spacesaver with its steel rim be able to take the load?
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Biggles,
As I understand it the balance, including the 'noseweight', of the caravan is critical to handling and even controlability. Quite different effect to whether there are pax in the rear (or a spare in the boot).
Pat or one our other towing experts will be along to fill in detail
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eI am no expert but the cornering load on the outside rear wheel of a car pulling a caravan must be considerable.
Then consider the weight transfer from the caravan when you brake hard - yes the caravan has brakes but I suspect the car - even laden - could happily outbrake it at speed.
So I suspect you could easily overload a space saver wheel on the rear of a caravan towing car.
Given that most motorists rarely check car tyre pressures- let alone the spare - and space savers should be at 60psi... and you can see the potential for a really nasty accident especially at 50mph on a hot day...
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Audi A6 Avant - Spacesaver spare wheel. - bathtub tom
