There I was, in the middle lane, on Saturday morning in good weather, pootling gently at the speed limit - 40mph - alongside another vehicle goo.gl/maps/kchu3
When suddenly I found myself swerving into the outside lane. Which thank goodness was empty. Because the numpty in the inner lane whom I was passing was pulling out into the space I was occupying without looking.
Interesting how instinct takes over in moments like that. And somewhat terrifying as clearly I was not at all in charge of the vehicle at the moment a reflex action made me change lanes. Lucky it did though, otherwise I'm sure the minibus would have written my car off. Lucky the road was dry. Lucky there was nothing in the outer lane. Very lucky, really.
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On his phone by any chance?
First time out on the motorway with Miss B in 2010 somebody joining the A1M in a Fiesta tried to merge with the Xantia. She did very well indeed to brake>observe>steer>avoid.
Phone held to his right ear and trying to do everything else with his left hand.
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This scenario was one where my driving instructor had got me to observe exit routes all the time. You don't know what might happen. You now know you should have known it was safe to swerve because if there was no room the only other real option was to slow down. Or be ready for the impact.
What if a motorcyclist was alongside you? Not worth thinking about.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 19 Feb 13 at 12:30
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>>What if a motorcyclist was alongside you? Not worth thinking about.
Tell me about it. I post this here as a sort of confession.
>>This scenario was one where my driving instructor had got me to observe exit routes all the time.
Really, if you would have been looking at exit routes at this point, you are superman. We were the only two vehicles on the road. It was a lovely sunny morning, I probably wasn't paying that much attention as there was no traffic around.
I knew that, of course, which maybe is why the brain knew it was safe to move, but who is to say that the motorbike hadn't appeared from nowhere...
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 19 Feb 13 at 14:21
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>> Really, if you would have been looking at exit routes at this point, you are superman.
By exit routes I obviously meant what would I do if.... scenarios. But if I was overtaking this other car (which I assume you must have been because you were alongside) then I'd have made sure I overtook quickly. Possibly going a bit faster than normal to avoid being alongside too long. Something else I was taught.
And if I am going along a 3 lane motorway say and I am overtaking in the middle lane I am looking ahead at what the others vehicles in lane 1 are doing. If they are catching up on the vehicle in front of them I will (if it's safe of course) move the the outside lane early in anticipation for the vehicle to then move to the middle lane to overtake the car in front. I don't wait for them to indicate. And they might not. But in defensive driving terms I am then well out of their way.
I do that sort of thinking all the time.
Another 'game' I was taught was to watch cars in your rear mirrors. So say there was a blue Mondeo... so where is it now? If you didn't see it move to another lane etc then it might be in a blind spot. Use of mirrors should mean you know where it went.
You can see I had a good two hour motorway driving lesson after passing my test and I am glad I did.
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>> Possibly going a bit faster than normal to avoid being alongside too long. Something else I was taught.
You really are superman. In that you never sit in heavy traffic with three full lanes; and you manage to overtake other vehicles by never being alongside them as it's too dangerous for you.
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>> >> Possibly going a bit faster than normal to avoid being alongside too long. Something
>> else I was taught.
>>
>> You really are superman. In that you never sit in heavy traffic with three full
>> lanes; and you manage to overtake other vehicles by never being alongside them as it's
>> too dangerous for you.
>>
>>
No superman involved, just basic advanced driving techniques. Maybe someone needs some training.
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>> >> >> Possibly going a bit faster than normal to avoid being alongside too long.
>> Something
>> >> else I was taught.
>> >>
>> >> You really are superman. In that you never sit in heavy traffic with three
>> full
>> >> lanes; and you manage to overtake other vehicles by never being alongside them as
>> it's
>> >> too dangerous for you.
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>> No superman involved, just basic advanced driving techniques. Maybe someone needs some training.
>>
OK, so how do you overtake other vehicles? In my world, which is based on Newtonian physics, at some point I have to be alongside the other vehicle. What do you use, magic?
And how do you cope with the M25 in rush hour when it is three lanes of traffic all moving at 50mph? Or do you never go out? Or do you use magic again?
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>> >> Really, if you would have been looking at exit routes at this point, you
>> are superman.
>>
>> By exit routes I obviously meant what would I do if.... scenarios.
Exactly what ALL drivers should be doing - no need to be superman...
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Ah yes, 'escape roads'.... I used one once I think in some overloaded fifties understeerer with hot drum brakes... there are several with deep gravel traps down the hill from the rest of England into Dover I seem to remember. But you wouldn't want to be parked in one having a coffee before catching the early morning ferry when Pat came barelling down the hill with her brakes on fire, knowImean? Can't help feeling those escape lanes were put there for good reason.
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Picture the finger of blame if somebody in the outside lane had been approaching fast or in your blind spot. You swerve into lane 3 , he goes into/over the crash barrier, car in lane 1 disappears into the distance unscathed.
You become the guilty party?
But, I would guess looking at the location, that cameras are plentiful so maybe you would escape prosecution.
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"But, I would guess looking at the location, that cameras are plentiful so maybe you would escape prosecution."
I doubt it. Swerving in to the path of a fast approaching vehicle in an outside lane instead of braking would probably leave you with a charge of careless driving and would certainly leave you liable in negligence for any injuries or damage cause
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This is when electronic skid control systems are useful, especially if it is wet. Unless you are one of the drivers who never gets caught out and claim they are an intrusion on your driving skills. :-)
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" and claim they are an intrusion on your driving skills. :-)"
Surely a set of drum brakes all round and some worn cross-plies are all an expert needs. :-)
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>> This is when electronic skid control systems are useful, especially if it is wet. Unless you are one of the drivers who never gets caught out and claim they are an intrusion on your driving skills. :-)
>>
Electronic aids are very useful for assisting drivers when the brown stuff hits the rotating device, the problem is, when drivers forget the basics, ie being fully aware of their surroundings (other road users, weather and road conditions etc), and also forget that even with all the aids, the laws of physics still apply...
edit... Im not having a go at you MM, but for the grace of God it could happen to any of us
Last edited by: swiss tony on Tue 19 Feb 13 at 19:29
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>>Swerving in to the path of a fast approaching vehicle in an outside lane instead of braking
Braking wasn't an option. There was a fast-approaching vehicle coming at me from the inside lane; we were right next to each other and he was pulling out with a vengeance. Imagine playing bumper cars where you deliberately set out to hit somebody; they cannot possibly escape. If I'd thought about what I was doing, there would have been bits of broken metal everywhere.
I agree, though, the negligence/careless driving etc. etc. points make me shudder even now; I was really quite shaken at the time.
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Out of interest was there any reason for the inside lane driver's actions IE approaching a slow moving vehicle in his own lane ?
(Not that it justifies pulling into your path)
Last edited by: Pezzer on Tue 19 Feb 13 at 14:39
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>> I doubt it. Swerving in to the path of a fast approaching vehicle in an
>> outside lane instead of braking would probably leave you with a charge of careless driving
>> and would certainly leave you liable in negligence for any injuries or damage cause
>>
It wouldn't.
Mapmaker was taking emergency action to avoid a collision which was about to be caused by the actions of another driver. In those circumstances he would hardly have been expected to carry out the Mirror/Signal/Manouvre sequence.
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I suppose with hindsight the only thing you could have done differently was to give the inside lane driver a flash or a toot before coming level with him to make sure he really was aware of you before overtaking him.
But that's the counsel of perfection - you'd be flashing everyone all the time.
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>>It wouldn't.
It could well. [leave you with a charge of careless driving to defend] But would I have known what had happened? If my swerve had taken me into collision with another vehicle, would I have noticed/remembered the minibus - that only instinct (rather than conscious thought) had made me move away from?
No, there were no other vehicles around; I gave him a good blast of my horn, and he looked across and apologised fulsomely.
I shudder each time I think of it.
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One does shudder a bit at those memories. We've all been there though, and in both positions too, near culprit as well as near victim.
Or perhaps some of you have never made a lethalish mistake? I certainly have.
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It's the right call.
By making the maneuver, even without time to look, you trade a certain accident for a possible accident. Also, in this particular case, doing nothing could easily result in the resulting shunt causing a loss of control and a far more serious accident.
Avoidance of the obvious and immediate threat should be and usually is, an automatic action.
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I would agree with that. By the time your conscious brain is aware of the situation the unconscious part has already sent the message to the necessary muscles etc to take action. Most of our driving, and indeed other actions is effectively done "on automatic". Courts don't always see it that way though.
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All drivers should constantly look around (and in mirrors) so as to be aware of everything going on - but how many of us put that kind of high-level observation into practice?
And at the other end of the scale we have drivers who are in their own little bubble - whether on the phone or not - and are utterly unaware of others.
You have to treat other road-users as potentially belonging to the latter group.
Probably it's not wise to be alongside another car, or in its blind spot, for any but the briefest of periods. Best to edge forward so the driver's peripheral vision stands a chance of picking you up, or drop back, especially when approaching roundabouts.
But that advice won't protect you from someone who's totally disconnected from what they're doing. And it ignores the aggressive driver who's taking risks and appears "from nowhere" and whose philosophy doesn't involve giving anyone else a chance.
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You are all turning driving into a complex thing. In reality its very simple, one easy to remember rule.
Don't hit anything else.
how you do it is up to you.
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>> You are all turning driving into a complex thing. In reality its very simple, one easy to remember rule.
It's much more complex than people think, but the fact that most decisions and actions are taken unconsciously makes it feel simple. Tyro drivers have to think about everything they do, and it shows. After a while an autopilot begins to take shape and does most of the driving thereafter.
But, a big but, no one's autopilot is 100% efficient. Everyone knows that you can chatter to the passengers while bombing down Park Lane, but when you reach the Knightsbridge junction at a busy time you stop talking because you need to concentrate on what is happening all around and get through the junction briskly without causing offence.
There are no circumstances where you can't be taken by surprise by another road user or fail to spot them in a vague moment. When that happens it's in the lap of the gods as well as your lap. Amazing we're all still alive really.
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>> It's much more complex than people think,
It is certainly true though that while demanding constant intellectual activity, driving does not absolutely require high cognitive skills or abilities. Indeed quite a few people I know with abilities of that sort make terrible, absent-minded and nervous drivers, whereas some barely literate South London yobbos in my experience can pilot a pretty skilled and zippy, but safe, minicab.
Intelligence can sometimes be discerned in the way drivers anticipate others' needs and accommodate them. However a majority tends to get lumpishly in the way (invariably taking up two lanes when possible); by the same token, a lot of drivers 'stay safe' by reducing the traffic speed all around them to a stately, self-important crawl. Not drivers really but 'car users' like fridge users or lawnmower users. Damn PITA carphounds.
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I read and interesting book* recently about how the brains works and it contained this example of how when we drive it is not really the conscious brain that is in control for the most part.
Imagine you are holding the steering wheel of a car on a dual carriageway and you pull out to the lane to your right an then pull back into your original lane. Demonstrate with your imaginary wheel the action you take. Before you read on try it.
Fairly straight forward task surely. You were holding the steering wheel straight then turned it to the right and then straightened up? No problem.
Actually if that's is what you did when driving, and nearly everyone does when asked to demonstrate, you would be off the road.
What you really do when driving is turn to the right and then back to the centre and continue to turn the wheel to the left just as far you did to the right and only then straighten out.
It's such an automatic think that you conscious brain cannot actually recall what you have to do to fulfil the task.
*Incognito The Secret Life of the Brain David Eagleman
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>> Fairly straight forward task surely. You were holding the steering wheel straight then turned it
>> to the right and then straightened up? No problem.
>>
>> Actually if that's is what you did when driving, and nearly everyone does when asked
>> to demonstrate,
Don't believe you. Only if they ignored the second half of your instructions.
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If you had to think about everything you did behind the wheel you would be back to learner status. Constant repetition makes our actions more or less automatic.
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>> I read and interesting book* recently about how the brains works and it contained this
>> example of how when we drive it is not really the conscious brain that is
>> in control for the most part.
True, and the less you use the conscious side the longer it takes to kick in when needed
Last edited by: swiss tony on Tue 19 Feb 13 at 19:21
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>>
>> True, and the less you use the conscious side the longer it takes to kick
>> in when needed
>>
>>
It's amazing how good the unconscious bit is though! I frequently find that I get the conscious bit prodded into life by a niggling "something's wrong" sensation. This invariably turns out to be that another vehicle in the vicinity has exited the motorway or is sat in one of the blind spots.
Something back in the depths is busily maintaining a complete picture of everything going on and calls for help in resolving the discrepancy when the sensory inputs don't match what it thinks should be there.
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>> Actually if that's is what you did when driving, and nearly everyone does when asked
>> to demonstrate, you would be off the road.
>>
True. I guessed that was the point you were making before grasped your imaginary wheel.
I have sometimes watched my actual wheel movenets when driving, and often been amazed at how small the movements are in most situations. To change lane requires very little more than the barest finger-movement of the wheel. It's hardly more than a thought in the brain really, certainly not as definite as a noticeable hand movement.
The nearest analogy is riding a horse without using the reins - just an imperceptible squeeze with the legs to direct the animal.
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>> There are no circumstances where you can't be taken by surprise by another road user
>> or fail to spot them in a vague moment.
Very true, but by being fully aware of other road users, and as rtj70 says, planning for possible scenarios, you can reduce the possiblity of being suprised.
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>> fail to spot them in a vague moment.
A vague moment plus accident = driving without due care and attention.
To respond to the above... I said what I do and then Mapmaker says what I do is not possible on busy roads... no but you can anticipate what other drivers will do and back off early or whatever.
His example of there nearly being an accident was a quiet road. No excuses. Nobody in lane 3. Thankfully.
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>>His example of there nearly being an accident was a quiet road. No excuses. Nobody in lane 3. Thankfully.<<
I disagree, mapmaker doesn't need excuses. He behaved like a perfectly good driver.
If you ask any experienced driver what is behind them at any time, they will be able to tell you without having to look.
It's a subconscious thing most (certainly all of us on here) do all the time...the more experienced and relaxed driver does it without any awareness whatsoever.
It's called driving and is all part of the package.
Had there been someone in the ouside lane mapmaker would have reacted differently and taken that into account.
Sanctimonious 'No excuses' doesn't come into it.
Those words are usually uttered by car drivers who choose to ride in the middle lane alongside a lorry trailer, doing the same speed as the lorry for mile upon mile while they 'overtake'
That is my escape route they are in and it makes me extremely uncomfortable when someone tries to occupy it for longer than necessary.
Loud pedal on right, brake on left. Use one or the other please.
How many have driven down a familiar length of road and suddenly thought 'I don't remember passing those traffic lights at the garage' followed by 'I do hope they were on green'
No difference at all to mapmakers situation.
The lights were on green - there was no-one in the outside lane.
A good driver is aware of all this, a bad or driver lacking in confidence has to mentally keep checking and be aware of doing so.
Pat
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>> His example of there nearly being an accident was a quiet road. No excuses. Nobody
>> in lane 3. Thankfully.
No excuse required. There wasn't an accident.
There wasn't an accident as there was nothing to hit in the outside lane. It was an empty road. Which is the point I make, I consciously 'knew' there was nothing else on the road, and hence by extension nothing on the outside, but it wasn't my conscious mind that moved me out of the way.
Nobody's conscious mind would have had time to respond to the minibus on my inside. He behaved as though he was trying to ram me.
If there had been a vehicle in the outside lane, I would have been the meat in the sandwich. There was no time to brake. It is lucky that there was nobody there.
I do wish I were as perfect at rtj70 though.
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>> Don't hit anything else.
2. Try to avoid other people hitting you.
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>>
>> >> Don't hit anything else.
>>
>> 2. Try to avoid other people hitting you.
Now there you go, complicating it again.
2 is covered by 1.
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"it's not wise to be alongside another car, or in its blind spot, for any but the briefest of periods."
I hate being alongside another vehicle - you never know what the driver is going to do. When I did an advanced driving course a few years back, the instructor advised us to always leave 'an escape route' open during an overtaking manoeuvre. Hence, when overtaking an HGV for example, I never go alongside until the vehicle in front is well clear - and then I don't hang about.
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Son in law's car got hit last week, his car small Peugeot other car Mercedes.He was lucky.The Merc pushed his car into the path of a lorry.Lorry driver managed to avoid his car just.
He is a bit shaken up new boot and back bumper required for the Peugeot.
Merc a company car.
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Nasty experience MM, far too many completely unaware jokers meandering willy nilly all over the carriageway.
Don't know which is worse the belligerant couldn't care less bully who forces through assuming you'll stop/swerve or the oblivious mimser who hasn't the foggiest idea whats going on and even less idea of anyone else on the road.
Lot to be said for purchasing a decent set of air horns, something jarring off key and urgent not sweet and gentle, wake the blighters up from their stupor, i had a set of two tone alternating (illegal a teeny bit) locomotive air horns on one of my lorries (still have them in the garage), goodness knows what decibels they reached but they woke the mimsers up and no mistake.
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A very near accident - Bromptonaut
