I am new to this forum so please forgive me if this subject has been discussed extensively elsewhere.
Yesterday I went to London to see a friend who has sadly been told that his cancer can no longer be treated. The words "the cancer's got me mate" were still ringing in my ears as I went to visit him with HWMBO. It was difficult enough trying to concentrate as we drove round the M25 and we were grateful for the Cameras Ahoy application on the iPhone (certainly saved us a few points on the licence).
To access the apartment block's parking area we had to wait to be let in by our friend's carer. The car park was empty (bar 4 cars) and she told us to park next to our friend's car. We reversed the car in the parking bay wondering what on earth we were going to say to our friend, and keeping our eyes on the carer as we weren't quite sure where to go next.
After our visit (which can only be described as extremely sad and challenging) we returned to find a Parking Penalty Notice attached to our car windscreen. We had an £85 penalty, reduced to £60 if we paid within 14 days. The car park was still empty, and we didn't have the heart to go up and mention anything to our friend.
Looking on the walls behind the car we noticed the penalty notice signs which were the last thing on our mind when we arrived. Our friend hadn't mentioned the need for a permit, but that was definitely the last thing on his mind - it took him 5 minutes or so to even remember that there was a garage fob to open the doors for us.
We rang the penalty company who said that we could always appeal the notice and suggested that we sent through medical information confirming the current condition of our friend (we'd rather pay the money than do that and couldn't believe the response from the customer service operator). The enforcement company could see from their CCTV that the car park was empty when we rang, so is it possible that they saw the series of events when we were let in and could see that we weren't trying to evade using a permit?
Does anyone know what salient information we should include in the appeal? And has anyone had experience of trying to have a penalty notice rescinded?
PS The company who issued the ticket was Central Ticketing.
|
As far as I know, you do not have to do anything if it's a "private" ticket, rather than a council sort of one. I shall be interested to hear whether anyone disagrees with this.
The basis for the issuing of these "penalties" is that you have broken a contract, and caused some loss to someone. The payment is for damages. If you have not caused loss, you aren't liable to pay damages, and that's that.
I overstayed my welcome in a supermarket car-park a while ago, and wanted to test the above, after receiving my "ticket" - however, I mentioned it to the "branch manager", who cancelled the ticket, as "I'd been/continued to" shop there, so I could do no more. I would have said, had they "sued me", that no damages were caused or payable, since no-one had been forced park or shop elsewhere during my visit, and there was no loss - there were still many freee spaces. Had there been no or few spaces, they may've had a point, but that was not the case.
|
The parking company has no appeals process, and even if they had they wont listen to you or let you off - no matter the circumstances.
However as they are a private company, just dont pay them, and ignore all follow up notices. They have no legal basis to fine you, and no legal way to enforce any fine.
|
>> They have no legal basis to fine you and no legal way to enforce any fine.
It is my understanding that they can extract a payment from you under some circumstances - but this does not seem to be one of those circumstances.
|
...I am new to this forum so please forgive me if this subject has been discussed extensively elsewhere...
SLK,
We've only been going here for a few days, so we haven't got an 'elsewhere' yet. :)
What we do have is members who know more about this than me, and their usual advice is to ignore these 'private' tickets.
No one - other than the state - has the power to fine you for anything.
The landlord, through his parking company agent, could seek damages for loss he incurred due to your actions.
But you have not caused him any loss, so he will struggle with that.
I'm told these companies can be quite threatening and unpleasant, but the best advice is to ignore them.
Once they realise you will not be bullied, they will leave you alone because they have no other basis on which to extract money from you.
|
Welcome to the forum!
It's very exciting that you've managed to find us - do tell us how.
Hope you stick around, and just put that letter in the bin.
Or write back to them and tell them you won't pay and not to bother chasing you. Use a typewritten letter - but DO NOT sign the letter as chancers like this are apparently are in the habit of doing nefarious things with signatures...
|
The crux of this lies in the wording of the 'ticket'.
Does it state PARKING CHARGE NOTICE or
PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE ?
If the former then you should read
www.tinyurl.com/2hr37d
www.tinyurl.com/lewaow
www.tinyurl.com/mw9a22
Whilst these people say they have an appeal system this is direct back to themselves so no sympathy.
If the latter then it cannot be sniffed at and will depend on the actual infringement stipulated on the ticket and against the Traffic Regulation Order and signage. Under the appeal system there is the final decision of an independent Parking Adjudicator.
dvd
|
>> PARKING CHARGE NOTICE
With one of these, what is the position if I freely admit to parking (or overstaying), but say that I will not pay - e.g. in my case above, where i overstayed the 1 1/2 "allowed" hours in a supermarket car-park and got a "Parking Charge Notice" - because there was no loss?
|
FT
If your have read my references you will see as far as PRIVATE parking is concerned the THE DRIVER enters into a contract with the owners of the land to use the facility on their terms in which an overstay attracts a penalty.
If they have the details of THE DRIVER and non payments of their ticket then it is a straight course through County Court to recover the fee.
dvd
|
>> If they have the details of THE DRIVER and non payments of their ticket then
>> it is a straight course through County Court to recover the fee.
From other sources, such as those mentioned in this thread, I had formed the idea that the "fee" was based on actual and real loss due to (in this case) an overstay. Is that idea then wrong?
|
|
No its based on the fact that they can only pursue the driver. You dont have to tell them who that is, which is why you dont answer the letters.
|
>> No its based on the fact that they can only pursue the driver.
Yes, but for what? Their full claim? Actual and real losses? Something in between?
|
They can only sue the driver in the County Court. They can only sue for what they are out of pocket eg. £1.00 if you haven't bought a ticket. No penalty eg. the other £59.00 of a £60 charged, can't be claimed...it's a penalty/fine and not legal , Administration of Justice Act 1970. Sec 40.
None of these cases has ever come to court. If by some fluke one did, then presumably the ' offender ' could just offer to settle out of court for £2.00, say. The Registrar cannot award them any 'penalty or fine' claimed.
I have seen one of these through to the end, where my SIL got a ticketed, whilst he was getting change for the Pay & Display, using my car. It took them over 8 months to send me a pseudo-official looking letter. It was followed by more, with the ' fine 'increasing.
Eventually I EMailed them suggesting they write to the person who parked the car.
They tried with me once more and then wrote that they were filing the matter and marking it ' Refused to Pay '
Our mobile tyre man has just had two of these whilst plying his trade in our local car-park helping folk with flat tyres.. He knew I had had a ticket from the same firm who seem to Excel in sending out letters. I re-assured him and printed off the Pepipoo information for him.
Our local car park relies on camera recognition of the car matching a ticket bought at the machine.
Drive in and drop someone off...demand arrives months later. Drive through as a short cut without stopping...same ! I cut through now quite a few times, it used to be a road and has been used as such for 40 yrs to my knowledge. They don't bother to send me letters now...I think they build up a database of people who know not to pay.
Incidentally, this car park serves a DWP office and a small shopping centre which is now dying since the introduction of charges. Local paper reports another 2 long established shops closing soon. Owners blame the charges and the ' fines '.
Bottom line....they can stuff it !
Ted.
|
The problem is Ted is that what you describe 'Pay and Display' could well be a park covered by an Off Street Parking Traffic Order so has statutory authority and as such they state that it is the KEEPER who is responsible not the driver.
dvd
|
|
The OP mentions the parking area they entered was gate controlled and they had to be let in. Seems a bit harsh to ticket people invited in to me.
|
That's true DVD. You have to study the letter of course.
If it says Penalty Charge Notice then it's probably official. but it should have some reference to the Local Council somewhere on it, and possibly a reference to the relevant by-law.
In that event, the appeals procedure should be in place.
I would tend to think that the council wouldn't be involved in a private, gated block of flats car park.
Ted
Last edited by: silence of the cams on Sat 27 Feb 10 at 12:00
|
>> They can only sue the driver in the County Court. They can only sue for
>> what they are out of pocket eg. £1.00 if you haven't bought a ticket. No
>> penalty eg. the other £59.00 of a £60 charged can't be claimed...it's a penalty/fine and
>> not legal Administration of Justice Act 1970. Sec 40.
>> None of these cases has ever come to court. If by some fluke one did
>> then presumably the ' offender ' could just offer to settle out of court for
>> £2.00 say. The Registrar cannot award them any 'penalty or fine' claimed.
>> (snip)
>> Bottom line....they can stuff it !
It would be reassuring to see hard evidence that what you say (and I hope) is true. The issue of cost is a major factor, unless the "settle out of court for £2.00" is the end of matters - costs could be more than the "ticket".
|
I,ve been there Fothers. Not on a parking charge . A company publishing a magazine for a new local hotel sold me a half page ad for a year...about £400. When the invoice arrived it was double and for 2 yrs. I asked them to send me a copy of the contract. It was completely different to the carbon copy I had of the original.
They took me to the County Court......I asked for the case to be moved to my local court, as was my right. On the way out I spoke to their solicitor, he was only about 12. I told him to recommend to his clients that they drop the case...he was horrified when I told him about the ' forgery ' and agreed with me.
Second hearing came and they didn't turn up. Effectively settled out of Court. No costs awarded. I assume only a Court can award costs after a case has been heard. Maybe a solicitor on C4P would know chapter and verse ?
The publishers went out of business later...they were scamming people all the time. I did getv a years free advert though !
I like to think I was partly instrumental in their demise......in a small way.
The point here really is...would they start a County Court case over a pound or two...or no loss at at all......Theyt seem to be happy with the ones that pay up without question.
Ted
|
Thanks for this information - I am really grateful as I was reaching for my cheque book ready to pay this so called "Parking Charge".
As far as I can ascertain from reading the posts, and clicking on an excellent Google ad that sent me to a solicitor's site that specialises in this, we should do nothing. Central Ticketing Ltd company clearly indirectly work for the person that we went to visit and as there was no charge to park there, and the car park was empty, no loss or damage resulted.
The reverse of the ticket is very threatening explaining that the vehicle licensing details will be obtained from the DVLA and that we will be issued with a formal demand, and then taken to County Court.
My only concern is if they have CCTV evidence of who was driving the car, but notwithstanding this I cannot see how they have suffered any loss or damage.
Incidentally three of us were in the car park and none of us saw the warning signs, nor as we exited the car park was there any information on where to obtain a permit from so that we could comply with the Parking Enforcement Notice.
Here's hoping that we wont have to do anything more, but thanks for all your help. If we do have to reply we will certainly use all these arguments found here, and certainly wont be admitting to who the driver was!
|
|
Could you also report here, please? I shall be interested to hear what happens!
|
I'm going through something similar at the moment, the only difference being that my car was parked like a berk.
I'm at the second threatening letter stage at the moment. I hope to successfully not pay (I think they should have towed my car and don't see why I should pay them as they didn't) and then donate the entire 'fine' to charity. There was a contentious thread on this in the other place, the result was a vote that a charity would be better off than the parking co.
I will report back.
|
|
Is this a "parking charge" thing, or a legitimate "penalty"?
|
|
Parking charge. To be fair to them, they are very straightforward about that, unlike many examples you see on the internet.
|
|
Thanks. Do they know that you were driving?
|
|
They have no idea who was driving, and I don't see any reason to tell them - they have no legitimate claim on the driver, whoever that may have been.
|
|
I am not suggesting that you tell them - however, I am most interested in any case where the driver is known (i.e. admits parking contrary to contractual conditions) and does not pay the amount on the "ticket". That's the really, really interesting bit.
|
In a Private parking matter Fotters, which this seems to be, then if they have details of the Driver, who forms part of the contract, then it isopne to them to take the matter to County Court to claim damages.
It would seem that many do not do so because of the cost to them which may be more than the 'fine' so they revert to bullying letters and threats of Debt Ocollection ( for which they need a Court order)
dvd
|
|
This is a dumb question but I presume if they were successful this is only a civil matter? A criminal record isn't helpful these days...
|
You can find more on Martin Lewis' moneysavingsupermarket if you do a forum search there on 'ppcs & threatening letters' or something similar
With Central you'll get the charge notice, then a letter from a debt collectors called roxburghe (this I know for a fact :-)), then apparently letters and or phone calls from a solicitors called Grahame White, but the general drift appears that nobody actually gets taken to court at the end of the day
nil illegitimi carborundum, as they say
Last edited by: sandro on Tue 2 Mar 10 at 20:14
|
It would seem quite stressful for many to be getting all of the letters and calls from bailiffs and lawyers, and unreasonable if it really is just a case of them trying it on.
If there is no legal power to force you to give the driver's name and address, is there any legal problem with giving them a false name and address for the driver that they can chase instead - rather than going through that stress?
Obviously, you wouldn't want to give a real name and address, and then have that person go through the same stress.
Perhaps, if you were ever in the situation, giving a fake name and address from abroad would do the trick. I seem to remember a lot of people on another forum...the name escapes me for the moment...talking about receiving loads of parking tickets from abroad that they just never paid (not condoning it, just pointing out that nobody seems to pay tickets from abroad).
But, again, is it lawful to give these people a fake name and address?
|
Probably better in this thread than in my bus lane saga.
In through the letter box this morning popped my fixed penalty notice, as expected but not wanted.
A complete contrast to the private one I ignored a year or so ago.
Headed by the City Council, immediately stating the legislation involved. A plain paper, polite letter with two photos, one of my car in the lane and a second close up of the reg.no.
Comprehensively outlining my offence and politely requesting payment, setting out the options and appeal procedures.
No yellow paper with a surround of black and white checks. No threats regarding bailiffs and debt collectors. All correctly laid out and printed with contact details and options of how to pay, offering a 50% discount for prompt payment.
That's the official one, the one you mustn't ignore.
It was almost a pleasure to be fined. I rang and paid my £30 within the hour, talking to a very pleasent lady for a while and putting the world to rights. A payment confirmation ref. was given and the whole matter ended there.
It's a fair cop, guv'nor, it was me wot done it
Ted
|
Parking Penalty Notice - How Should I Appeal - FotheringtonTomas
