My Dad texted me to ask if I would take his car to fill it up with diesel ready for when he gets back on Friday night, I had barely got out of the car and this old fairly tired Polo pulled up behind to wait for me to fill up. I must have been a good five minutes since it's a big tank (Discovery 4) and it cut off at I think it was 73 litres. There was then a bit of a queue in the kiosk since someone's card ahead of me was proving problematic. All this time the driver left her car idling. Looking at the bashes and scrapes on this old Polo I would not think the driver had money to literally burn for no reason. I thought it was a bit strange.
Discovery cost just over £100 to fill and that's not from empty. Ouch!
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>> I would not think the driver had money to literally burn for no reason. I thought it was a bit strange.
Nothing worse than a duff starter in an old motor. And it's hard to push-start a car on your own without an incline, especially if the engine is out of tune and hard to start. Better a few p on petrol than trying to recruit passers-by to push your motor.
Of course it's illegal. Just asking for one of these fireballs we only see in the movies.
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I don't quite get the point of this one. Do you mean 'fuel' is still cheap to some?
I can't see much difference between someone not minding at paying £100 to fill a tank and someone else leaving an engine idling for a few minutes, maybe to avoid some sort of problem.
Is the condition of the Polo supposed to be significant? Most cars get a bit careworn eventually.
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A bit like the argument for slipping an auto into neutral at a set of traffic lights, where do you draw the line.
I'm guilty of leaving my vehicle ticking over unless the stop is going to be extended, never been one to switch off for a minute or so....however no longer running tractor like Diesels in my cars you probably wouldn't hear or smell them ticking over..;)
Probably a throwback to poor charging systems and memories of starter bendix springs choosing the most inopportune moments to fail.
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I slip my autos into neutral at traffic lights but more for the transmission's sake than the fuel.
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>> I slip my autos into neutral at traffic lights but more for the transmission's sake
>> than the fuel.
So do i Mike, but judge each stop on its merits if i know how long the stop is likely to be, and how much creep the car i'm in exerts.
For a short stop, less than a minute i seldom bother, if its going to be a long one or the car in question is on fast idle cold meaning heavy creep then more inclined to neutralise it.
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>> I slip my autos into neutral at traffic lights but more for the transmission's sake than the fuel.
Vauxhall autoboxes drop themselves into neutral as a fuel saving feature.
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>>I slip my autos into neutral at traffic lights but more for the transmission's sake
That's more likely to damage the transmission rather than help it.
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>> Of course it's illegal.
I know they tell you to switch off your engine before filling, but it's (legally) ok while waiting?
Last edited by: Focusless on Tue 3 Sep 13 at 10:00
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Whilst the more mature members on here are making excuses for leaving a car idling, MJW is from a younger generation that has only known reliable vehicles and expensive fuel. MJW has probably been taught, from the word 'go', not to waste fuel. Nowadays, when I see a car needlessly idling, the driver is usually a brain-dead chav, or an old duffer.
IMHO, MJW is quite right about fuel seeming cheap to some - including those who fly past doing 100mph in their 4x4s.
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Haywain..I only have a 2x4. Does that mean I can go faster still?
TIC
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"Does that mean I can go faster still?"
Probably.
TIC
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>> Looking at the bashes and scrapes on this old Polo I would not think
>> the driver had money to literally burn for no reason.
Looks can be deceptive.
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I cannot stand people who leave their engines idling when they have no need. When I seize power this will be a £500* on-the-spot fine administered French style, ie, through a cash machine.
Worst offenders:
* Taxis. FFS. Instant ban.
* Parents waiting outside schools.
* People posting letters.
* The local yoofs who just sit there with the engine running, presumably to prove to their mates that their car does, in fact, have an engine.
* Delivery drivers. Don't blame someone else when your van gets nicked.
* "Just nipping into the shops".
* "It doesn't start well". Then get it fixed, 'cos when it does break down it'll probably be on the outside line on the M25 on a Saturday morning, when you've chosen the worst possible time to travel on a hot day and not bothered to check the fluids since you bought the thing from Gaz's dodgy mate who took £200 for it and then every other poor sap gets stuck in the resultant jam.
* Waiting at petrol stations (see OP).
* Pulled up at side of road talking on phone. Still an offence and now an inconvenience to everyone else.
* Taking the family out. You don't need to start the engine and then wait for 15 minutes at 8am / 11pm for everyone to pull their finger out and get in the car. Hanging's too good etc.
* I'm aware that some banks limit you to £250 a day. In this case, £250 is acceptable but if the offence occurs between 11pm and midnight, you will be expected to wait next to the cash machine for the allowance to reset after 12am.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 12 Sep 13 at 01:10
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A bit severe there FF. It's a tendency on this site.
Personally I don't give a fish's tit whether people leave their engines idling or not. Nor do I care whether they leave it idling for good reason or just because they are slobbish. It's their business and I don't care.
I don't do it myself except very briefly. The reason is that I still haven't had the engine cooling fan fixed after more than a year.
Slobbish or what? Heh heh.
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Other than still pondering the concept and mental image of a fish's tit, I'd tend to agree.
Unless its outside my window, who cares? I do it quite often in the winter when waiting.
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>> the concept and mental image of a fish's tit,
They don't have them. That's the point of the image.
This was the only vulgar expression used (not very often) by my father, who was normally proper in his behaviour.
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Useless information, tangentially related... It's illegal to idle your car in Hong Kong, it's a supposed attempt at reducing pollution but must rank as the proverbial drop in the ocean. People who run cars there generally run V6 or V8 4x4s and can afford to idle their engines as much as they like. Keeping the aircon running might constitute a valid excuse anyhow.
I notice as I walk with my daughter to her school in Melbourne (about a mile) then onwards to the train (another half mile or so) that many of the crawling cars (mainly V6 and V8 4x4s) have stop/start nowadays, it is a source of amusement that cars we see when leaving the end of our road arrive at her school at roughly the same time as we do on foot. Petrol is cheaper here of course but the Australian press (when not discussing the election) recently expressed concern that Australians are becoming one of the fattest peoples on Earth, I wonder why ? (hint, it's often quicker to walk).
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>>I slip my autos into neutral at traffic lights but more for the transmission's sake
That's more likely to damage the transmission rather than help it.
Well, it's worked for me for more than 30 years. Hondamatic, Honda, Mercedes, BW DG, BW8, BW35, General Motors 400...
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>>Well, it's worked for me for more than 30 years.
What are you saying?
That you've had no trouble in 30 years
or
That you've had no trouble in 30 years because you put it in neutral
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>> Unless its outside my window, who cares? I do it quite often in the winter
>> when waiting.
>>
but when it is outside your window, and the car is an FSO Polonez diesel started at all hours as the owner works shifts, you'd care, believe me
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Fair enough. But I drive petrol, so I gas people rather than wake them.
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>> I cannot stand people who leave their engines idling when they have no need. When
>> I seize power this will be a £500* on-the-spot fine administered French style, ie, through
>> a cash machine.
>>
>> Worst offenders:
Pilots, They are always idling engines waiting for a take off spot.
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>> I cannot stand people who leave their engines idling when they have no need.
Sometimes I drive my car out of the garage and leave it idling on my drive just so that I can listen to (and enjoy) the sound of it idling. I check the instantaneous petrol consumption on the trip computer to make sure it's not consuming less than it does normally. If I know I'm going to leave it idling until it's fully warmed up I disable the start/stop feature. After a few minutes I drive it back into the garage again and breathe a sigh of satisfaction in the knowledge that an Englishman's a Frenchman's home is his castle.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Tue 3 Sep 13 at 14:39
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Except we only have finite resources and I have to breathe the polluted air that you leave behind, regardless of how nice your engine sounds!
Isn't it strange that Volvo never considered that the car might not have warmed up properly before enabling the stop/start system? Must be causing untold damage to the engine on every other Volvo where the owner hasn't decided they know better than the computer and engineers behind it. TIC, of course... ;-)
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>> I cannot stand people who leave their engines idling when they have no need. When
>> I seize power this will be a £500* on-the-spot fine administered French style, ie, through
>> a cash machine.
>>
>> Worst offenders:
>>
Pilots who fly round in circles when their passengers would like to get on the ground and get on with their lives. :-)
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>> >> I cannot stand people who leave their engines idling when they have no need.
>> When
>> >> I seize power this will be a £500* on-the-spot fine administered French style, ie,
>> through
>> >> a cash machine.
>> >>
>> >> Worst offenders:
>> >>
>>
>> Pilots who fly round in circles when their passengers would like to get on the
>> ground and get on with their lives. :-)
>>
Not my choice. If it helps we could stop the engines but I'm pretty sure you'd be clamouring for them to be turned on again before too long. Besides, I'm neurotic about saving fuel at work- single engine departures and arrivals, flap 3 landings, flap 1 take-offs, flight plan fuel, cost index 0 when appropriate. You name it, if it saves fuel I'm doing it.*
You wait till you get whacked with the fine for driving with a light out in the Fursty Ferret (mostly benevolent) semi-dictatorship...
* unless it's the middle of the night and I want to get home, in which case the technical term is "giving the engines a bit of a spanking".
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Tue 3 Sep 13 at 19:35
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I noticed a car idling outside my local bank this morning although, judging from the big bags of cash the passengers seem to have withdrawn, they could afford to burn a bit of petrol.
The police did eventually turn up. Not only were they too late, they turned up in half a dozen cars...presumably just to hand out out a ticket for idling! Good to see that taxpayers' money isn't being wasted...
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Two of my near neighbours have powerful motorbikes and always leave them idling for a few minutes before riding away. Is this a reason for this? Not somethng I would do with a car
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My neighbour does across the road (cul de sac) Leaves his powerfull motorbike idling before he takes off.He is usually back after half a hr.It takes him longer to get his gear on.
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I idle my petrol lawnmower until it warms up - it stalls otherwise.
Does this mean Petrol is cheap for me as well?
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LPG still @ 66.9, let it idle on petrol till it switches over, kerching.
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>>Well, it's worked for me for more than 30 years.
What are you saying?
That you've had no trouble in 30 years
or
That you've had no trouble in 30 years because you put it in neutral
Either, or both, or possibly neither.
You're the scientist. I'm just a driver.
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Explain it simply N.C.why a auto gearbox is damaged whilst stopped in neutral engine running.
Please.
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Mike said,
>>I slip my autos into neutral at traffic lights but more for the transmission's sake
Where actually, for a TC automatic, the reverse would be closer to the truth.
However, I don't think either strongly affects gearbox life in the grand scheme of things.
But, here's the logic behind my statement.
For a clutch or brake to be wearing, there must be some slip, and some torque being transmitted for a clutch, or dumped in a brake. There's no wear when the clutch or brake is fully applied, and none when the clutch or brake is fully released. Clutches and brakes are not designed to operate for long periods of time with slip - they get hot and wear out.
For a torque convertor or fluid flywheel, there is no wear - the device is designed to operate for prolonged periods of time slipping - slip causes no harm.
In a TC automatic, if you leave it in gear at traffic lights, the only relative movement is across the TC itself, and there's no wear occuring inside the gearbox. There will be a small amount of heat being passed to the transmission fluid by the idling engine, but, this is tiny compared with the heat load the system is designed to cope with.
However, if you slip a TC automatic into neutral, there will be wear in the forward clutch both as you disengage and re-engage it. During the idling period in neutral, yes, there will be less slip across the TC itself (but, see above!, who cares!), but there will now be relative motion across the clutch packs and brake bands inside the gearbox. In some gearboxes, this is problematic, as the clutch packs don't really fully disengage.
So, in summary, it's not serious either way, but thinking that you're saving wear by slipping a TC automatic into neutral has no basis in fact.
On the other hand, wanting to avoid creeping forwards, wanting to obey the highway code, wanting to avoid holding the hot service brakes on and damaging the discs, wanting to avoid blinding the driver behind are all much better reasons for using neutral.
Last edited by: Number_Cruncher on Tue 3 Sep 13 at 19:35
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>> Explain it simply N.C.why a auto gearbox is damaged whilst stopped in neutral engine running.
>>
>> Please.
I've heard before that with the older ZF autoboxes used on BMW's, it's best to leave in drive - although I don't know the exact reason. According to the link below the gearbox gets no cooling when in neutral.
I don't think this applies to all auto gearboxes however.
tinyurl.com/ow7xs9k
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>>I've heard before that with the older ZF autoboxes used on BMW's
These were the particular gearbox I was thinking of corax - when I mentioned that some gearboxes were problematic when the clutch packs were subject to dragging during idling.
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"LPG still @ 66.9, let it idle on petrol till it switches over"
That's me GB.
When it's freezing or snowing I let it idle for 5 mins or longer. It's a big thirsty beast so I don't drive that damned car until it's switched over to LPG (where it's 45p). And that's when it's kept in a heated garage too.
But I don't bother in Summer when it's week after week in the low/mid 30s, I keep it out on the drive so the sun keeps it baking hot. It switches over in 30 secs. I also leave it in different places, either parked in front of the garage or down the side of the house depending on when the sun shines during the day. The sun is my friend, he keeps that engine block warm and the gas switched quickly.
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Pretty much what Haywain has said. I was always taught to turn the engine off if I am going to be stopped for maybe a minute or two. Also I was always told that leaving a car to idle for a prolonged period is bad for it, although I am not a mechanic so don’t know whether that is true.
Of course situations are different, you may be stuck behind a HGV or van so cannot see what’s going on ahead. But I so often see people just stopped with their engines idling for ages, why not turn it off? Maybe in summer you want the aircon running or winter the heater, that is understandable. Also if your car is knackered you may not want to risk turning it off.
The comment about the Polo was that here was a driver who, judging by the state of her car, probably didn’t have a lot of money and yet was quite prepared to leave her car idling (with her in it, just to clarify one comment above) for at least five minutes. Maybe she was afraid her car wouldn’t start again but then she must have turned it off when she eventually got alongside the pump. I know the dangers of generalising and making assumptions, maybe she was a millionaire but just didn’t want a newer car, same as some people who will drown themselves in debt just to have a flashy new car but who are by any other definition skint.
I think the Scenic holds 60 litres, the most I’ve spent filling it is about £70 since I don’t run it too low, filling the Discovery and easily breaking the psychological £100 point just seemed surprising but then a big car with a 3.0 engine needs a big tank. I wasn’t complaining, it’s not my Discovery and not me paying to fill it up, I have a credit card that goes to my parents’ account so they can ask me to do or get them things when I’m out or run brother around without all the hassle of having to repay me back afterwards.
And I know it’s none of my business if someone wants to leave their engine running. It was only an observation that caught my attention for right or wrong.
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I noticed a couple of cars waiting for a space to appear in the Tiny M&S car park in Bury St Edmunds this afternoon. Engines were kept running and both drivers appeared to be .................. 'old duffers'.
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45p, if only, bliss.
Noticed my old MB has also been switching over within 30 seconds during the summer , it wasn't like that at first but when the chap who did the conversion recalibrated it he turned the changeover temp down, its been fine in the winter switching over at the lower temp.
During very hot days the Outlander was actually starting on gas.
Incidentally BBD, mine is a Polish system, which would appear to be looked upon as inferior compared to some of the Italian systems from what i read, but i can only go by my own experience that its been a complete success and the car runs without the slightest hesitation and the system trouble free.
Would happily buy the same system again when we replace cars.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Tue 3 Sep 13 at 20:07
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The Astra 1.6 auto I had converted(and , Yes, GB, I do regret selling it, (Ref an old reply to an old post of mine)but it would have been rusting through by now),had a single point injection Italian system.
Summer or Winter I would start it up, let it idle for a few seconds to let the oil circulate, and the method then for the system was to accelerate gently to about 3k in neutral, when the system made an audible click as it switched to LPG.
I would then go back to idle, put it in gear, and drive off.
I didn't use much petrol in 3 years and 100,000 miles on LPG.
It was the cheapest car to run I've ever had.
With the present Jazz iShift I put it in neutral if waiting for any time-Is this not advisable?
It will creep in D with brakes off.
With my Smart Roadster and Ducato Comfortmatic Camper they appear to disengage the clutch when stopped with Manual or Auto selected and engage it when the accelerator is pressed to go, so, presumably there is no wear or over-heating of the transmission.
If waiting for a spot at a filling station, or caught in a jam I will switch off if waiting for any time.
Does re-starting use more fuel, or cause more wear?
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I occasionally remember to switch off while waiting for a petrol pump to be free - usually because the car is running on fumes by the time I get to the garage.
In long motorway stops the kids call it the magic key. ie: when I decide to switch off, the traffic ahead invariably moves!
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Ducato Comfortmatic Camper they appear to disengage the clutch when
>> stopped with Manual or Auto selected and engage it when the accelerator is pressed to
>> go, so, presumably there is no wear or over-heating of the transmission.
Wow Stroudie, have they actually got round to putting automated manuals in Ducati's now..;)*
Seriously though, the PSA equivalents were very torquey must be some gearbox to cope.
I've never driven a Ducato/Boxer van or chassis cab with that gearbox and i used to deliver lots to the Southam based camper builder, sometimes two cabs but no rear axles or wheels bolted together back to back like a push me pull you, interesting to secure on board as they had no parking brake and would roll off as the body was too steep for first gear to hold it, which made delivery interesting as no one at the coachbuilders wanted to release the final holding chock, and my arms whilst long did not come from a gorilla.
Not many single point LPG systems fitted now, thats why you can afford a (must be very new cos of gearbox) camper van...any chance of a loan old chap..;)
* i used to wind an old mate up who's pride and joy was his Ducati by always calling it a Ducato.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Tue 3 Sep 13 at 21:39
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Over here the gas price usually goes up in line with the central heating gas so I can imagine it hitting 55p or more in November/December and then dropping again in Spring.
Mine will be converted four years in November with one glitch. Something packed up but I couldn't tell you what it was, but I think in the petrol equivalent it would be a fuel pump - sorted out at warranty. There's a garage owner on our street who has his own and his wife's cars converted at a specialist and has done for several years - top reputation. So I went there, and it's one the lubrication system jobs.
I forget the exact cost but it was under a grand to convert, and with my mileage at the time it was paid in about a year. The connection is hidden under the fuel flap so nothing ruining the lines of the car. It's a 55 litre tank hidden in the spare tyre well. If I was a high-mile rep I'd probably connect it with another 90 litre tank but the 55-tanker lasts 3 weeks for me these days.
I drove over to the UK for a month in July and although Polish gas is dirt cheap, it's still a delight to fill up an empty tank for 38 quid.
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I had a young neighbour who used to leave his Subaru Impreza (complete with exhaust pipe the size of a drainpipe) idling on his drive for several minutes until it had fully warmed up before he drove off. When he came home he then used to leave it idling for several minutes before he switched it off. Fortunately he moved to somewhere else.
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>> I had a young neighbour who used to leave his Subaru Impreza (complete with exhaust
>> pipe the size of a drainpipe) idling on his drive for several minutes until it
>> had fully warmed up before he drove off. When he came home he then used
>> to leave it idling for several minutes before he switched it off. Fortunately he moved
>> to somewhere else.
>>
Which is so very different from:
"Sometimes I drive my car out of the garage and leave it idling on my drive just so that I can listen to (and enjoy) the sound of it idling."
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Hijacking the thread a bit-apologies.
But replying to gb-I know many on the site regard AMTs as the work of the Devil.
I've now got 3-Smart Roadster, Jazz iShift and the Murvi Morello-Love 'em all.
To get the Comfortmatic in 2008 you had to have the 3l engine(180bhp/400nm torque), but now you can get it with the 120,130bhp diesels.
It goes like a bomb and will average 31mpg on long Mway runs and ca. 28-29mpg on single carriageway driving.
It has hill control and some other clever tricks.
I can run it up on to wedges if the van needs levelling on site-cm by cm-very controllable.
SWMBO shouts at me to stop at the right place on the wedge and I stop it on the handbrake to avoid running back.
Absolutely lovely to drive, esp in traffic.
If you delivered cabs in Southam area-? to Autosleepers you will likely have been delivering Peugeots.
PSA did not contribute to the development of the AMT so Fiat don't put them in non-Fiats at Sevel.
As Alanovic said in a previous post (about Smart Roadster), AMTs are great to drive,when you take the trouble to learn their characteristics.
My theory is that some people who moan about them have not driven them far enough, or don't have enough mechanical sympathy to get the best out of them.
PS-Recently had prob with Comfortmatic going into limp mode-Clutch disc speed sensor replaced-not a mech prob.
Hopefully now OK.
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I leave mine running for cooler or heater to remain operable.
I also worry more about a £700 bill for a starter motor than accumulative 5p of fuel here and there.
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>> ............. I know many on the site regard AMTs as the work of the Devil.
What's an AMT? I Googled for it but the best I could come up with was Abbreviated Mental Test! www.patient.co.uk/doctor/abbreviated-mental-test-amt
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Otherise know as satans work whilst in a particularly foul mood.
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>> >> I had a young neighbour who used to leave his Subaru Impreza (complete with
>> exhaust
>> >> pipe the size of a drainpipe) idling on his drive for several minutes until
>> it
>> >> had fully warmed up before he drove off. When he came home he then
>> used
>> >> to leave it idling for several minutes before he switched it off. Fortunately he
>> moved
>> >> to somewhere else.
>> >>
>>
>> Which is so very different from:
>>
>> "Sometimes I drive my car out of the garage and leave it idling on my
>> drive just so that I can listen to (and enjoy) the sound of it idling."
>>
D'uh!
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>> D'uh!
>>
Why was my post rated as offensive? All I said was "D'uh!"
:-D
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Filled up the 330 today (yesterday for those pedantically inclined) with Shell V power. Im pretty sure its gone up again in price.
On the positive side, it means that gas guzzlers are maybe worth slightly less. Which is good news for me as I only drive 8/10k a year and have my eye on a soft top guzzler model when winter comes around.
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>> >> D'uh!
>> >>
>>
>> Why was my post rated as offensive? All I said was "D'uh!"
>> :-D
>>
D'oh! Why was this post rated as offensive?
:-D
Last edited by: L'escargot on Fri 6 Sep 13 at 07:20
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Petrol still cheap to some? - Armel Coussine
