Somewhere to avoid: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-23970047
Report blames fog/no lights.
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Deceptively steep bridge that, steep climb up and speed can run away with you going back down again especially southbound it seemed to me, not saying thats is a contributory factor in this mess though.
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>> Report blames fog/no lights.
I wonder if some were by people being reliant on their auto lights coming on all by themselves, and not realising that it's only darkness that puts them on and not foggy conditions.
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bit.ly/18uGgHb Local news article with more pictures.
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www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2412099/Sheppey-crash-100-vehicles-pile-misty-conditions-Kent.html
Good that no one died. Looks like everyone was tailgating.
Last edited by: movilogo on Thu 5 Sep 13 at 10:38
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Doesn't seem to have been any reports of fire....thank God. Modern fuel tanks and all that ?
Might have been very different 20/30 years ago.
Ted
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Despite them being singled out as involved in the crash, so far i haven't seen any car transporters other than stationary and straight within their own lane and stopped well back from the vehicle in front, or have i missed them all.
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or have i missed them all.
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Yep missed one.
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Just illustrates the low level of thought applied by a large proportion of drivers, and their usual failure to drive to the conditions.
Agree on the auto lights - what a carp feature that trains the sheep not to think about lighting.
It's a very annoying feature on my car. I can select OFF-AUTO-SIDE-HEAD, so if I don't want to use it I still have to switch through it - going from off to headlights can mean the headlights switch on, off leaving the sidelights on, then on again.
I grudgingly tend to leave it in auto, but then you get the on-off-on-off in dull conditions, and the display screen constantly switching from day to night and back again if it's set to auto, so I end up having to manually switch that at nightfall. If you're looking ahead, it's hard to know for sure whether the headlights are on or not.
[drift]
Hill hold is equally superfluous and annoying. I occasionally use the handbrake, usually heel and toe, so I only discovered I had it when I actually wanted to roll back a bit into a parking space. The brakes appeared to be stuck on, until they suddenly released 2 seconds later. What sort of idiots are these things designed for, and by?
At least I don't have an electronic handbrake.
[/drift]
Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 5 Sep 13 at 11:13
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Today's weather forecast is for 29ºC sunshine. I reckon a lot of the drivers had the mindset that it's still summer, therefore it can't possibly foggy enough to pose a risk of accidents. You see the same thing in winter during the first few minutes of fresh snowfall, they refuse to believe what their eyes are telling them because it was fine when they set off.
(drift) My old Escort used to hold its brakes on for 2 seconds after they were released, that was due to a collapsed flexi hose though. The works Amarok does it and it just feels wrong IMO.
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BBC report now states 'more than 130' vehicles.
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>> Today's weather forecast is for 29ºC sunshine. I reckon a lot of the drivers had
>> the mindset that it's still summer, therefore it can't possibly foggy enough to pose a
>> risk of accidents. You see the same thing in winter during the first few minutes
>> of fresh snowfall, they refuse to believe what their eyes are telling them because it
>> was fine when they set off.
Valid point that Dave, sometimes when i've seen something that doesn't compute (such as a woman walking through Highgate at 1am in the frost in just her sussies stockings and heels) it doesn't really register at first and required a U turn to be sure one hadn't wishfully thought the whole thing.
The trouble with fog and lights is that the rear fog lights were never standardised on cars, they should never have been allowed to have been fitted anywhere near brake lights so as to give those behind those valuable few seconds that they were looking at a bank of brake lights not rear fogs.
I wonder also how much less deceleration visibility effect the fashion for LED lights has in fog, i know i can't judge deceleration as well with LED rear lights in good visibility and i suspect in poor conditions this is worse.
Up to point in really heavy traffic headlights in daytime fog are of little use except to see the car earlier just before it rams you.
If people won't adjust their braking distances according to visibility or conditions under tyre then this is always the result.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Thu 5 Sep 13 at 12:11
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The 'fun' thing with auto-lights on some (all?) cars is you cannot turn the fog lights on when set to auto. I know this to be the case on my Volkswagen.
So if you have to turn the lights to on and then pull the light switch outwards to turn on fog lights.... Try going that at night as you drive into some fog on the Woodhead pass :-) For a brief moment your lights will be off as you go from auto to on using the light switch!!
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 5 Sep 13 at 12:20
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>> The 'fun' thing with auto-lights on some (all?) cars is you cannot turn the fog lights on when set to auto.
I can with the Vectra. As soon as I press the fog light switch it puts the other lights on as well.
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Lights on a VW and (I think) Fords is one rotary control that is pulled outwards to turn on fog lights. One click out for rear fogs and another for fronts too. But you cannot pull the control out when lights are in the auto position. Poor design? Because if switching from auto to on turns off the lights briefly that is dangerous.
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>> Lights on a VW and (I think) Fords is one rotary control that is pulled outwards to turn on fog lights.
>> One click out for rear fogs and another for fronts too.
>>Poor design ?
>>
On my 98 Mondeo the first click is front fog lights and the second is for the rears.
I just do not understand that logic.
IMO I am much more likely to be hit from behind so I want the rears to be lit first.
Much more likely to see rear fogs ahead and be wary rather than adding more light ahead in fog.
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The lights in the Passat (2012) and my previous Skoda (2008) are controlled by the Computer and not the light switch. There is a delay between moving the switch and computer switching the lights so you can go from auto to headlights (through the sidelight position) without the headlights going off.
Your CC will be the same system so you must turn the switch very slowly.
I find the lack of a lights on indicator annoying and tend to run them in manual
edit IIRC it is front then rear (wrong way round)
Last edited by: IJWS14 on Thu 5 Sep 13 at 13:05
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>> Your CC will be the same system so you must turn the switch very slowly.
Definitely go off for a split second.... Does your Passat have bi-xenons? Maybe that's why mine go off briefly?
Yes I did get it the wrong way round... it's front fogs first for the chavs in us to have them on and not the rears.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 5 Sep 13 at 13:38
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afaik I can turn the fogs on in auto mode on my new Octavia (standard halogens)
That is, I can pull the switch - too wet this morning to get out and see if the lights came on :-)
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The naughty Note has fogs at the front...I know 'cos I've seen them ! Haven't a clue how to make them work, though.
Probably summat on the stalk.
Ted
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>> Haven't a clue how to make them work, though.
RTFM ;)
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'Hazardous fog'
When asked if the fog had caused the crash, Mr Reeves said it was "too early" to give a cause but added the "weather will be a factor".
Idiot.
OF COURSE IT'S THE DRIVERS' FAULT. PEOPLE cause the crash not fog. People were driving. People were driving too fast. People were not concentrating. People failed to turn on their lights. People failed to leave sufficient space from the car in front. People were not driving according to conditions.
Why don't these spokemen ever just come right out and say it!
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>> People failed to leave sufficient space from the car in front.
And to maintain that distance. The thing that causes these shunts is someone suddenly braking very hard. That happens when they notice too late that they are closing up on the vehicle in front which is now braking. If they stayed on top of it they would be able to brake gently so that even the tailgaters behind wouldn't get into trouble.
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Humans suffer from the desire to act the same a everyone around them. If others speed so will they, if no one else has switched on their fog lamps nor will they.
Its an inbuilt characteristic of human behaviour , the desire to to stand out in a crowd. Can be fatal though.
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That did make me chuckle too! Our dear friends don't help themselves coming out with such frequently meaningless twoddle do they? Mind you it was an equally dull question wasn't it.
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On the news they just said that a lorry driver deliberately blocked access to the bridge stopping more drivers getting involved in the mess.
Good thinking that man!
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>> Idiot.
>> OF COURSE IT'S THE DRIVERS' FAULT. PEOPLE cause the crash not fog.
Well yes. But people drive badly all the time, without causing 100+ vehicle pile ups. The fog might not cause it, but it does explain it ie. "weather will be a factor in explaining why it happened"?
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>> Somewhere to avoid: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-23970047
>>
>> Report blames fog/no lights.
>>
No.
I know for a fact that the cause was drivers failing to drive at such a speed that they can stop within the distance that they can see to be clear.
Nothing in itself to do with speed/lights/fog.
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Don't know what it was like in Kent but fog in Northants this morning was dense but very shallow - maybe fifty feet. I wonder if cars 'suddenly hit a wall of fog' either on or descending off the bridge?
Now any motorist with a sense of observation would have seen the wisps first and drawn some clues but how many are on qv to that extent?
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Both my children have just started driving after passing their tests. The one thing that I have tried to pass on them is to always leave LOADS of distance between them and the next car no matter the conditions....one day it will save you a lot of heartache.
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Same here. Distance is time is options.
So far so good - one has been driving 14 years, the other 8, and neither has run into the back of anything - yet.
What's sometimes less appreciated is that it also the chance of being hit from behind too.
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>> Both my children have just started driving after passing their tests. The one thing that
>> I have tried to pass on them is to always leave LOADS of distance between
>> them and the next car no matter the conditions....one day it will save you a
>> lot of heartache.
I do this. It not only helps to avoid a shunt, but it helps to keep the driver of the car in front relaxed, and more likely to drive smoothly and predictably.
He/she is aware of you behind them, but you are not so close that they start getting nervous or wound up, which shows in their driving.
However this is virtually impossible to do on the A12 first thing in the morning, where people might as well tie their vehicles together in a long chain.
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So, how do the insurance companies deal with something like this?
I bet there will be enough whiplash claims here to keep some ambulance chasers in business for a long while!
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How do you keep any distance in dense fog if you can't see the car in front?
Al you can do is slow down which isn't any good when the car behind you runs into your car.
Brand new bridge why wasn't the road closed to traffic? No warning signs.A wake up call because it will happen again.
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Surely there should be 100+ prosecutions for DWDCA but probably won't be.
Now if Kent police did this, and all cases were heard the same day, and the press were invited, it might actually get the message through to some of the idiots out there that accidents are caused by drivers.
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How do you work out which cars stopped in time but were pushed into the vehicle in front by impact from the rear?
Pat
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>> How do you work out which cars stopped in time but were pushed into the
>> vehicle in front by impact from the rear?
You could train to be a road traffic accident investigator. tinyurl.com/kxp9ngr
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I wonder how long it'll take the insurance companies to to sort this little lot out?
Staggering that no-one died. What luck.
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For any who think that driverless cars a bad idea, they might consider crashes like this, and the lamentable performance of the human drivers.
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You have a point there N_C. But they are a fairly long way off... actually the 'crash mitigation' device already available on e.g. Honda jeep thingies, if fitted to all the vehicles, might have prevented the big shunt, or anyway 'mitigated' it.
I saw one of these in Germany some years ago, after it had happened but only just, and it wasn't caused by fog. There was a good mile of wreckage and I would be willing to bet a number of deaths. Given the way some people had been driving, it didn't seem at all surprising. Indeed I was surprised only to see one big crash.
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Most of the crash avoidance technology on cars (be it radar or laser based) usually operates at speeds up to around 19mph. The next BMW X5 will auto brake at speeds up to 40mph.
Radar cruise control if engaged would have maintained a safe distance.... but would it brake hard/fast enough to avoid a crash? No idea.
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I was riding from Ypres to Dunkirk - mix of good N roads and Autoroute - early on Wednesday - the fog was quite jolly in the rural bits but got quite tricky on the Autoroute and i felt quite vulnerable at times. One thing I have noticed is that these cheesy LED DRL are all well and good but on some cars the rear lights aren't lit. Really useful for muppets that
Last edited by: R.P. on Fri 6 Sep 13 at 13:26
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Sudden mist is quite common on the coast, certainly towards the east. Sea fret, haar or whatever you want to call it. PLenty childhood hols in Scarborough where we were driven inland a few miles to find some sun in Malton or Pickering.
On 24 July this yearwe were catching the ferry to France. From home, down the M1/M25 and A2/M2 route we were in brilliant sunshine throughout. Approaching Dover what looked like thin white cloud appeared, perhaps over France we thought, then the odd wisp of mist. Only as we ran onto Jubilee Way, the road that drops you straight into Eastern Docks, did the extent of mist over town and Channel become apparent. Nothing like yesterday but vis less than a quarter mile.
Quite eerie riding through it on the ferry with, over water, almost nil visibility with the hooter going every thirty seconds or so. Too close for comfort to at least one small/medium sailing boat. Listening to harbour control on my scanner there were a lot about!!
Mist suddenly disspeared as we approached tyhe French coast.
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DRL = front lights. The rear lights aren't meant to come on as DRL. Some cars with DRL just use the dipped headlights - but the rear lights aren't on at the same time so manufacturers can claim these are indeed DRL.
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>>For any who think that driverless cars a bad idea, they might consider crashes like this, and the lamentable performance of the human drivers.
Its the old Winter tyre scenario again - no point in your car stopping cleverly when the car behind you just rattles into you anyway!
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I am still against driverless cars. We don't know whether they will cause even more accidents in a different scale.
Also I don't want NSA/GCHQ to decide whether I can visit shops or not.
There should be more public awareness against tailgating, similar to 'think bike' scheme.
If government can sort out the railway and public transport a lot less car will ply on the roads.
Last edited by: movilogo on Sat 7 Sep 13 at 09:19
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>> I am still against driverless cars. We don't know whether they will cause even more
>> accidents in a different scale.
>>
Probably not.
>> There should be more public awareness against tailgating, similar to 'think bike' scheme.
>>
The Think Bike adverts make no difference. Only those who already do take any notice, the brain dead don't even see them.
>> If government can sort out the railway and public transport a lot less car will
>> ply on the roads.
>>
Pigs will fly.
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>> >> If government can sort out the railway and public transport a lot less car
>> will
>> >> ply on the roads.
>> >>
>> Pigs will fly.
>>
And very high flying pigs, less road miles = less tax. No chance.
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>> There should be more public awareness against tailgating, similar to 'think bike' scheme.
Whenever I see a "Think bike" sign by the side of the A157 it makes me think there should be a "Think car" sign for the attention of motorcyclists.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 7 Sep 13 at 16:14
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>> >> There should be more public awareness against tailgating, similar to 'think bike' scheme.
>>
>> Whenever I see a "Think bike" sign by the side of the A157 it makes
>> me think there should be a "Think car" sign for the attention of motorcyclists.
>>
Plain wrong.
Most motorcyclists behave as if they are brainless so thinking is impossible.
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>> Most motorcyclists behave as if they are brainless so thinking is impossible.
Can't say that I have had much trouble with motorcyclists.
Apart from the chavs on scooters who are just asking to get knocked over with their traffic light antics.
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I think these type of signs are meaningless.
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The best safety for a bike rider is having their headlight on so car drivers can see them.
And about 50% of bikers do not...
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>> And about 50% of bikers do not...
I would call that a gross exaggeration madf, verging on misinformation in fact. It can't even be 5%. I thought motor-bike headlights these days came on automatically like Volvo headlights.
But perhaps I just don't notice these unlighted bikes and have had the luck of the devil.
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>> I would call that a gross exaggeration madf, verging on misinformation
It occurs to me that you may have been talking about pushbikes, in which case I have done you an injustice... sorry. Quite a lot of pushbikes don't make themselves obvious in a useful way.
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All bikes in the UK have had their lights hard-wired into the ignition for years now - I rarely see a bike with no lights on.
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Actually, that subject came up on a bike forum a few years back, and a very compelling argument by a member who was a police accident investigator convinced me and a few others it did more harm than good.
All this "More is better" when it comes to things like lights and hi viz is not always correct, many things one would automatically assume makes us safer either do not or even make things worse when they are subject to proper analysis.
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Bikes should be lit IMO, but larger vehicles should be lit when needed and not permanently, there's no reason on earth why my lorry as big and bright as the thing is needs DRL's on permanently, switchable on mine so they are turned off.
Every car doesn't need to be lit up like some garish Christmas tree with fairly lights either, it takes away the necessary noticeability of the biker who disappears into the millions of lights that will eventually be out there.*
What hope the poor old pedestrian trying to stagger home and non lycra cyclist who hasn't splashed out on the latest gucci searchlight for his battered old bike he goes to work on.
The same goes for the hi vis, we've even got clowns attending the steering wheels of lorries with them on, what are they welded on or something.
Theres far too many of the things and are now not so instantly noticeable any more .
*i recall many years ago a wet road run back down the M6 at night, this would have been early 80's when the fad was rear fog lights, course those that had newer cars had to switch them on at the first sign of a light drizzle to show everyone they had them.
Driving down through the Birmingham section that night was horrible, very few lorries on the road then in the evening, all i could see was thousands of 21W red lights in all three lanes on hundreds of cars as far as the eye could see from the higher seat of the lorry, and all these lights refelecting on the road just to help things along.
Would have made not a scrap of difference if anyone braked as there were too many equivalent brightness bulbs competing and you;d never have seen the brake lights, very dangerous and thats where the everybody must be lit syndrome is heading IMO.
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Its not "more is better", its "different is better".
If you are the only vehicle on the road with your lights on, you will probably be noticed. If everybody has their lights on, then you don't stand out and have no particular advantage.
Given that the difficulty is to be noticed. Being seen is not the issue. The laws of physics cover "seen", being noticed is far more difficult.
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>> Given that the difficulty is to be noticed. Being seen is not the issue. The
>> laws of physics cover "seen", being noticed is far more difficult.
>>
The way to be noticed on a bike is to actively make yourself noticeable. Approaching a junction with a car waiting to emerge merely lifting your head and moving your elbows out will attract the attention of all but the doziest driver. Altering your road position by even just a metre will also help draw attention to your approach. That's what it's all about, MAKING them see you which even the smallest little things can, not sitting on the bike like a sack of potatoes blindly imagining that because you are glowing like a Christmas tree you will be protected. A bike has a small profile and it's approach speed can be harder to judge than a cars, more so in my opinion when it is showing a glaring headlight. As you rightly imply, seeing is one thing, converting that into judgement of speed and distance is quite another, particularly as many people tend not to regard themselves as threatened by a vulnerable road user and blot their presence from their minds.
I far prefer active safety to passive safety and in the time I've been riding without lights - going back over ten years, albeit with a five year break in the middle of that I can honestly say I've had fewer instances of having to brake for emerging vehicles than used to be the case when I was one of the headlight squad.
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Unfortunately can't agree with you. These days kids grow up believing they are untouchable, no discipline at home, school or in society and now they are given a licence to drive 1 or 2 tonnes of metal.
I keep out of the way.
I don't trust ANYONE behind a wheel. You probably do not know them, their age, their state of mind or their alcohol/drug intake. Treat everyone as though they are an idiot any you'll be fine.
As AC said in another thread about the Italian's, expect the unexpected...
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100 vehicle crash on A249 Sheppey crossing - -
