Hypothetical one, this one.
Say my family need 2 cars in the household. The main family car is to be provided by a company scheme, and will be used daily. The second car is there to be used at most once a week on local runaround duties. It should be pretty reliable and robust, so that it's ready for use as and when it's needed and doesn't refuse to start/break down all the time (crosses all BL/Austin Rover cars off the list). It would be nice if this car were something interesting, and also very, very cheap to run, given it's lack of use.
Thoughts turn to running the second car on classic insurance. This would mean something 20+ years old. The age of the vehicle could be extended to 1974 and older in order to avoid VED also, however I'm hypothetically discounting that as just about everything of that age will be a bit crap, even though it might look nice.
The car needs to seat 4 in comfort.
I'm thinking Volvo 240 or an early 940/960. Perhaps a W124. Or a large Japanese of some kind, but can't quite put my finger on any. Can only think of a Volvo Amazon or early 200 series if going the 1974 or earlier route.
What does the panel say?
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I don't think you will save much money, insurance can be more expensive on older cars (it depends largely on circumstances) but my £6500 brand new Panda was far cheaper to insure than my £1000 Corsa was, despite having both about the same amount of power.
Getting spare parts could also be an issue. One of my elderly customers bought a brand new Audi 80 in 1991. He ran until last year when parts were just getting too difficult to source, so he swapped it with a brand new Fabia.
Rust could also be your other issue. Unless you can find something pristine it will just cause a head ache. You can plenty of 2000 and newer cars for much less than £1000 now, and if you get a good one should be a lot more reliable.
If you could find something like an old Merc 190 than it might be worth considering but even these seem rare now and many of them have mega miles on them.
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1974 vehicles do not avoid VED, proposal is for cars pre Jan 1 1974 to be exempt from April next year
Apart from that I think it's a great idea
Fully intend on retirement (2015 if not before) to go to 1 modern car (probably Golf) & 1 1974 campervan.
Edit having seen Rattle's note, real older, ie classic rather than banger, are very cheap to insure especially for 40+ drivers (age that is)
Choose 1 with decent parts availability you will be fine
Last edited by: commerdriver on Tue 24 Sep 13 at 11:46
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Why 20 years?
10 Year old cars are far more reliable and cheap as chips for a second car 53 plate Jap model would run forever.
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>> Why 20 years?
classic insurance and if you go old enough free VED
on a low mileage car the fixed costs can become a major percentage of the overall costs
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>> >> Why 20 years?
>> classic insurance and if you go old enough free VED
>> on a low mileage car the fixed costs can become a major percentage of the
>> overall costs
>>
Exactly that, cd.
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>> Why 20 years?
Coz that's when classic insurance kicks in. Our Golf is 400 quid to insure, the Volvo 360 I had as a hobby car until recently was £94.
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>> >> Why 20 years?
>>
>> Coz that's when classic insurance kicks in.
>>
Not necessarily. I ran a 1993 Saab 9000 on classic insurance back in 2006. Limited to 3000 miles/year, and the policy earned no NCB (but you probably know all of that). I could also get a green card if needed.
Come to think of it, a Saab 9000 would make a nice alternative to your Volvo, as long as you got a good one. Solid and roomy.
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Here's a hypothetical answer...
My Alfa is probably cheaper to buy & cheaper to run than any 20yr old classic. You get all the modern safety systems and a greater driving pleasure on that one day you use it than any affordable classic I could think of.
If you fancy a classic why not but they are not the most economic way to go.
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>>
>> If you fancy a classic why not but they are not the most economic way
>> to go.
>>
Running a 21 year old bike I'd agree with that. Prepare to spend a lot of time on ebay looking for spare parts and certain items will probably be like gold dust. For a vehicle intended to be used regularly I wouldn't bother.
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Ah, but that's part of the fun, Robin. We wouldn't need to rely on the car 100%, and I like the idea of a bit of a hobby.
Lightbulb:
www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C396296#
Or
www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C425102
Hmm.
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Seriously Alanovic those aren't classics... they are just old Fords.
I looked after a 2.8 Ghia X version of that Scorpio for a friend 10yrs ago... my 1.9TD Xantia of the time was more refined, rode better and had less issues with the electrics of the high spec elec gear.
Re the Sierra I've never liked the 2.3 V6 which didn't feel any faster than the 2.0 but used loads more fuel.
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>> Seriously Alanovic those aren't classics... they are just old Fords.
Yeah, I know, I'm just chewing over cars I like that are 20 years old plus. Not thinking of a "classic" per se, just something which can be insured on a classic policy.
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>> Ah, but that's part of the fun, Robin. We wouldn't need to rely on the
>> car 100%, and I like the idea of a bit of a hobby.
>>
>> Lightbulb:
>>
>> www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C396296#
>>
>> Or
>>
>> www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C425102
>>
>> Hmm.
Sheds, the pair of them. Will never ever be classics.
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>> Sheds, the pair of them. Will never ever be classics.
Missing the point entirely. I'm wouldn't be trying to find something which may become a classic. Just something which can be insured using classic (misnomer) insurance.
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I had a Sierra of the same year as that one, and it was a great car. I still think that interior looks inviting even today, if obviously dated.
I used to sell these Scorpios new. Performance was marginal with the 2.0 engine especially saddled with the auto transmission. Much, much nicer car with a V6 under the bonnet, and not much more thirsty either.
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>> I had a Sierra of the same year as that one, and it was a
>> great car. I still think that interior looks inviting even today, if obviously dated.
Oh come on, misty eyed specs of time being worn there. They were horrid things, looked awful on the outside, smelled of fish glue on the inside, and was a bad handling Mk4 cortina made worse by iffy aerodynamics.
Yes before you explode, I had one. An 86 2.0, It was gutless and uneconomical to boot.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 24 Sep 13 at 17:53
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>> Oh come on, misty eyed specs of time being worn there. They were horrid things,
>> looked awful on the outside, smelled of fish glue on the inside, and was a
>> bad handling Mk4 cortina made worse by iffy aerodynamics.
>>
No. I liked it.
Each to their own.
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>> No. I liked it.
>> Each to their own.
I liked Sierra too, last Ford easily diagnosed and fixed with a hammer and some basic tools, front bottom link bushes were about the only weak point but once you had replaced the first set then slipping a pair (genuine lasted best as with Cortina rear bushes) in annually was a ten minute job.
My first ex police car was a Sierra 2.0GL direct ex plod, very good car that was.
Never had a 2.8 4x4 but hankered after one for years.
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I had a Sierra Sapphire (i.e. with boot) new in 1988. A 1.8 CVH engine so ran on unleaded by design. Nice met grey with green tint glass, sporty wheeltrims and modestly upsized tyres. For the era is was totally competent and looked nice. Ran it for three years with no real complaints.
They did carry out a subtle but important series of spec and styling improvements for that 1988 model year which made the cars look so much better than the pre 88s.
It was a better car overall than the Saab 900GL it replaced, for refinement in particular.
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>>I had a Sierra Sapphire (i.e. with boot) new in 1988. A 1.8 CVH
We had a 1991, bought for the boss at a year old and kept for 10 years. Not a minute's bother for the first 9, then a water pump seizure took the cambelt and a couple of valves with it. We got it back on the road, and gave it to a friend a year later.
It certainly wasn't a MkIV Cortina, it had independent rear suspension rather than the live axle for a start. With 90 bhp and weighing about 1100kg I suppose, it was pretty lively too.
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Didn't the later Cortinas have double wishbone front suspension before Fords reverted to Macpherson strut for the Sierra?
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I had a Mk V Cortina and that did indeed have double wishbone front suspension. Lots of the kitcars in the 80s use to take the whole front suspension from these Cortinas.
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We've run a couple of 20 or so year of cars, albeit as third cars. Current one is a 1994 Audi 2.6 Cabriolet, to fill the convertible sized gap left when we sold the A4. It cost just £500 and has an almost complete Audi Service history. Previously we had a 1988 BMW 325 Touring for general carrying duties when we were doing work to the house. Neither of them has given us any cause for concern from a reliability perpspective, and the BMW passed three MOTs in a row with no issues. We've had the Audi less than a year, but it passed its MOT first time too. The Audi is galvanised and so no rust issues are apparent - the BMW was sound underneath but getting frilly round the bottom of the front wings, ironically because its first owner specified dealer fit mud flaps!
Older cars are far less economical, but contrary to Rattles experience I've found them cheap as chips to insure, perhaps because they qualify for 'classic' policies. Spares availability for the BMW was fine - BMW seem to acutely encourage it, with even what you'd think would be hard to come by trim parts available in 48 hours. Audi spares availability is more hit and miss I think, but I expect MBs is Ok.
I'd happily run a twenty year old car from any of the German manufacturers - the '80s was a pretty good period for them and I think a W124 Merc or an E34 BMW would be a comfortable, reliable car. Like all things though, at some point values of the good ones will rise, or probably already has, and from a financial perspective it makes no sense to 'restore' a poor one!
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>> or an E34 BMW
There's a thought. Ta.
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It should be pretty reliable and robust, so that it's ready for use as and when it's needed and doesn't refuse to start/break down all the time
Thats the problem with 20+ cars parts & quick availability.
2003 Toyota avensis plenty of bits 4 seats and relaible. :-)
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properly looked after & used reasonably regularly they don't "break down all the time".
If you are really using it as an occasional car it will be fine, also most older cars can be fixed easily when they do go wrong, mechanical parts can frequently be obtained via the bay of E or owners clubs/forums. If you want improve your chances by making small changes like adding electronic ignition.
Having done it for the last 25 years, it has never been so easy for me to run the Commer in terms of parts availability. Not that the parts didn't exist in the 90s but it's much easier to get in touch with the people who have them now or even the people who know who they are.
The interweb has transformed the business of owning & running old vehicles
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>>
>> 2003 Toyota avensis plenty of bits 4 seats and relaible. :-)
>>
Except the 1.8 petrol, which munches engines with an oil fault.
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>> Except the 1.8 petrol, which munches engines with an oil fault.
2003 on should be OK, but if not, they should be around the mileage where it would have showed up and been sorted by now.
There can't be many more dependable and cheap to run cars of that size than the Avensis, but interesting it is not.
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>> 2003 on should be OK, but if not, they should be around the mileage where
>> it would have showed up and been sorted by now.
>>
>> There can't be many more dependable and cheap to run cars of that size than
>> the Avensis, but interesting it is not.
>>
The one I know about was a 2003 (new shape), manual, 1.8, petrol, 75000 miles, extensive service history and well cared for. Needed a new engine after blowing piston no.4.
An engine was sourced, a second hand one, with 33000 miles on the clock...1 month later that one was drinking oil like no tomorrow, but with no obvious fault....so off to the auction it went.
Whilst talking about it to a local garage, they'd had similar problems with an MR2 (same engine).
Last edited by: Westpig on Wed 25 Sep 13 at 20:15
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>>
>> There's a thought. Ta.
>>
I think a 525 in calypso red with BBS cross spoke alloys is a very smart car; not quite timeless, but difficult to place if you know what I mean.
Which reminds me; we sold our A4 convertible in 2012. We'd had it from new in 2007, when it cost just under £30k. We sold it for £12k, so not bad as these things go. 6 months later we both realised we really missed having a convertible, and I picked up the cabriolet on eBay for just over £500. Spent £400 having it serviced and n autoglym products, and a further £300 n 4 new Dunlops. So I'm in for around £1,200. The first thing the cleaner said when she saw it was "when did you get your Audi back". So to a non car person my £500 car is on par with a car 'worth' 25 times as much! And I think some BMWs and MBs from the period have aged just as well, if that makes sense? It probably helps that our Audi is silver, a shade that hasn't aged, but still... :-)
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It's also my opinion that certain cars hide their years better than others. Audis do seem to be quite good at that along with Volvos and Mercs. Although I'm a Ford fan they do, I'll admit, tend to date quite quickly as do Vauxhalls. In my straw poll of one it feels like BMWs fall somewhere in between along with anything French. Far Eastern marques age very quickly in my mind.
A neighbour of ours who has a company Insignia bought an old BMW 5 series estate to use as a van while doing up a fairly knackered cottage he has bought. It's constantly full of wood, bags of sand, tools etc but he loves it as a workhorse.
In my world every household should have at least one estate car or other vehicle capable of lugging lots of stuff when required. I'd maybe be looking at old Volvo, Merc, BMW estates. ( of course I'm going to say you could get all their main benefits cheaper by buying a Mondeo but I'll not dwell on that ! ) Alternatively, keep the Renault Laguna as your second car so you've got an estate and then you could choose a company car with more irrational, perhaps more heart led features !
Another pal has just downsized/graded his company car from a Mercedes ML to a Citroen DS3 with all the toys. While he doesn't claim it compares directly with the previous car he reckons its huge fun and saves him a mint on tax. He has financed the purchase of a new estate car for his wife with the tax saving.
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I've always had cars over 20 years as my main daily drivers. Currently a Volvo 240, annual mileage 20,000, total mileage 306,000 miles.
Insurance, as someone mentioned it, is £215 pa.
Our second car is a 46 year old Triumph 2000. Free road tax, cheap readily available spares, and annual insurance of £87 also covers my 1968 Series landrover.
Unless you know the model well and are confidant about grovelling about underneath checking things, just go to a specialist classic car dealer and get a sort of semi-recon job.
That is, someone who buys good examples, goes over them thoroughly, does any work that is necessary, and sells it with a 3-month guarantee and a new MOT.
It costs more than a dedicated enthusiast might pay, but no more than you might pay for an ordinary secondhand car, and the classic won't be worthless in 5 years' time.
Go and have some fun.
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I'm tempted by this idea too, although I'm already sort-of doing it by stealth with an 11-year-old car I've had since new and still really like. (Drove it to work today.)
If I were to go older, my choice would be like Vic's, something I really liked at the time but couldn't afford, and it would be one of the last pre-GM Saab 900 Turbos, a cherry-red three-door. Downside would be that it uses as much fuel as two modern cars, but I can imagine few things that would tickle my aesthetic and practical senses so appealingly.
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>>>I'm tempted by this idea too, although I'm already sort-of doing it by stealth with an 11-year-old car
Yes that's what has happened here (i.e. by stealth) in keeping on the Alfa which was really only for 3mths between new cars. MikeyB's done it too just buying the old £700 Audi A3.
Of all the ideas for Alanovic I'd say an Audi or BMW from around 1993-2001 might be the best balance of useability, pleasure and costs.
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Hang on.
Citroen XM.
Now I'm being silly, aren't I?
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>>Citroen XM.
Now I'm being silly, aren't I?<<
Not really, plenty of Citroen specialists about these days although I would go for the MK2 XM rather than the MK1. 2.5 TD mmm.
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>> Hang on.
>>
>> Citroen XM.
>>
>> Now I'm being silly, aren't I?
yes. Good ones are now as rare as hens teeth, estates even rarer than that and are starting to fetch silly money
this one looks like a blinder tho
www.autotrader.co.uk/used-cars/citroen/xm/used-citroen-xm-2-1-sed-5dr-st-neots-fpa-201309168813221?logcode=p
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>>>Now I'm being silly, aren't I?
Yes... that could get you in more trouble than anything mentioned so far because it could develop expensive faults while standing never mind driving. Best enjoyed with deep pockets and a philosophical view on what motoring is about.
But if you were mad enough that one of Zero's is near me and I could give it an initial look over. Know the garage too, they always did a fair bit with used Saabs and seem decent guys.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Tue 24 Sep 13 at 14:57
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A french colleague bought a derelict Citroen Maserati about 5 years ago. He spent two years and a load of money restoring it to its former glory. Took it out for its first run on the road in a decade and it promptly ignited itself burning out to a crisp. He was not happy.
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I ran a 1967 Lotus Elan S3 coupe as a fun car in the 1990s. Yes, it went like stink (tuned to 135bhp with big valve head) but just kept going out of tune.. Nothing went wrong as such but driving it was a pia in traffic - not helped by the gawping idiot in a van behind me who tailended me without a scratch but with a bump.
Great for being a hooligan ho.
I gave up and went sensible.
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Here is my take on this.
If you have money to burn and want a car as your "hobby", then buying classic car makes sense.
If you need a reliable "mode of transport", then better stick with 10-yr old Japanese car as other have mentioned.
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the original request at the start of this thread was a car to be used once a week, for that a classic is ideal and a bit of fun into the bargain IMHO
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Another suggestion is to have a biggish estate;it comes in handy for carrying large goods-inside or on top!
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Yes, jc2. That's why I'm pondering on old Volvos.
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Alan, you don't need a big estate car you need a campervan :-)
Far more capacity even than a Merc / Volvo and weekends away as well
VW would be best for parts / driveabilty etc
Commer / Transit / Bedford would be best for class and space
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Ah. Sadly, I'm considering looking for something around the coupla grand price range. VWs (good ones) are well pricey, innit bruv.
Just had a thought. Where did all those Cd0.30 or whatever badged Audi 100 estates (Avants) go? You know the ones they banged on and on about having a low drag coefficiency or something in the 80s? They were nice. 200s, too. Ooo. Used to be loads of those around. All disappeared.
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>> Ah. Sadly, I'm considering looking for something around the coupla grand price range. VWs (good
>> ones) are well pricey, innit bruv.
>>
>> Just had a thought. Where did all those Cd0.30 or whatever badged Audi 100 estates
>> (Avants) go? You know the ones they banged on and on about having a low
>> drag coefficiency or something in the 80s?
Funny enough I saw a minter on the road a few days back. Red it was and hadnt faded a bit
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This would be mine.
Although, I'd prefer it for regular driving and keep the Lexus for weekends.
tinyurl.com/kbmf2ms
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>> tinyurl.com/kbmf2ms
>>
That's so nice I think I'm going to cry.
Well found.
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"That's so nice I think I'm going to cry. Well found."
That's my first car although it was a 1979, 2 litre. I learned in a 504 7-seater, so a lot of sentimental there. I'd really love a 505 V6 - rarer than dinosaur poop, but I always check Autotrader every couple of weeks. One day...
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>> What about an Audi 100?
>>
Great minds/fools. Same time stamp, too.
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ruddy hell, look what you can get for 1300 of your pounds
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201306027076858
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tinyurl.com/m9yu2rt
Edit - I would seriously consider buying this if I had your criteria.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Tue 24 Sep 13 at 17:23
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>> tinyurl.com/m9yu2rt
>>
>>
>>
>> Edit - I would seriously consider buying this if I had your criteria.
On the face of it its a corker. However it looks like its been clocked.
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>>been clocked.
Presumably the main dealer service record accuracy could be verified.
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except the last one, which isn't main dealer.
The last three digits are all over the place in the odometer. Of course it could just be wear, they have been round and round 189,000 times. As always tho in cars like that, its a case of buy on condition not miles.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 24 Sep 13 at 17:48
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I'd give it a go for a grand.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Tue 24 Sep 13 at 17:53
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so would I actually. I know a place in Wyboston where all old Volvos go to die, get bits for it easy peasy there for peanuts.
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>> so would I actually. I know a place in Wyboston where all old Volvos go
>> to die, get bits for it easy peasy there for peanuts.
Have you ever dealt with the guy who runs that place? He wants stupidly high prices for the parts (often more than buying new) and he's a thoroughly unpleasant character.
You may get on well with him...............................;>)
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I was going to say the same if it's the guy from 10yrs ago. He hates folks going in trying to buy something.... seems to mess up whatever else he's doing.
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>> I was going to say the same if it's the guy from 10yrs ago. He
>> hates folks going in trying to buy something.... seems to mess up whatever else he's
>> doing.
All old style breakers are the same. I used to know one miserable old git who let me take most of what I wanted for next to nowt after I taught his huge German Shepard yard dog to bite him.
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>> Have you ever dealt with the guy who runs that place? He wants stupidly high
>> prices for the parts (often more than buying new) and he's a thoroughly unpleasant character.
Him?...Olympic gold medal winner in the miserable event.
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He's ok (and it is the same bloke from 10 years ago). He just doesn't like people he perceives as idiots.
He's also prone to making definitive statements as if they were gospel.
But he's got lots of stuff, especially little bits, which are difficult to get elsewhere.
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There used be a posh restaurant in Shepton Mallet ( a bit of a misnomer in itself I know ) which was owned and run by a guy who was 7th dan miserable. It used to be a bit of a sport to see how rude you could get him to be.
Anyway, back to cars...
:-)
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>> tinyurl.com/m9yu2rt
>>
>>
>>
>> Edit - I would seriously consider buying this if I had your criteria.
Runfer - your postcode...................
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>>Runfer - your postcode...................
Not mock Tudor enough for Humph, I'll wager.
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That's a hot mature neighbour that I regularly 'see'. She's a bit of a Yootha Joyce.
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>> That's a hot mature neighbour that I regularly 'see'. She's a bit of a Yootha Joyce.
She died so long ago I guess she's well mature now.
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She probably looks exactly like the day she died,
If she hadn't been crem'd she'd still probably look exactly like the day she died. She was pickled on brandy.
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I wouldn't bother with Audi because they are really not interested in keeping their older models going through availability of spares. It's part of the reason why you don't see many older models, which is a shame, because the older 80's, coupes and 100's are nice cars. The 100 turbo's were pigs to work on in relation to the rear wheel drive stuff.
I'd stick to BMW or Merc for German.
If it was me I'd go for a Lexus LS400. Not 20 years old, but a reliable wafter with a stupendous V8.
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>> >>>I'm tempted by this idea too, although I'm already sort-of doing it by stealth with
>> Yes that's what has happened here (i.e. by stealth) in keeping on the Alfa which
>> was really only for 3mths between new cars. MikeyB's done it too just buying the
>> old £700 Audi A3.
It was £500 and two weeks in so far so good although I think I need to invest in some new rubber, although an offer that landed on my desk for a new motor may have won me over if I had seen it sooner.
To be fair the A3 is a bit tatty but mechanically appears to be very sweet
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I've noticed older Audi's vanish too.
First of all for this type of car you ideally want RWD and a north/south engine, so those good old Volvo MB and BMW's are the best bet, simple to work on in Volvo's case but MB particularly presuming a 124 needs some special tools and techniques...ie special spring compressors that compress the spring from inside, use normal spring clamps and you could be seriously hurt...many jobs are straightforward DIY but more intricate work will mean you finding a good make specialist indy.
FWD should IMO be avoided, probably the cost of fettling them has seen older VW/Audis off, and their auto boxes do not last...hasn't that always been the case and still is?
The only FWD i might be tempted by would be a Camry, but careful to find one thats been looked after as these older Toyotas will stand neglect more than others.
My money would go on a Volvo purely because their bodies are far better at resisting rust than the Germans and almost anything else made, i'd suggest a 7/940 and keep your eyes open for the superb noisy and indestructible 7/940 SE Diesel.
Its got the 6 cyl 2.4 td engine lifted straight from VW's LT van late 70's early 80's vintage, not a computer to be found everything mechanical, often suffers from turbo lag but a slight tweak of the fuel screw (2minutes 13mm lock nut and screwdriver to adjust screw) will get rid of that.
Once tweaked its a faster car than you might imagine.
Our old one (93) still in the family is still going strong refuses to rust or break down, but has been bashed about inside and out and neglected and is apparently being retired finally.
The 760 Turbo in the starting an old car thread could be just what the doctor ordered but it won't be that good on fuel.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Tue 24 Sep 13 at 18:37
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Using it, at most, once per week.
Spending £20 a week for taxis would work out cheaper and safer than running a banger I bet.
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Can't fettle a taxi though.
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If you actively want something to fettle, it's not going to come in under a grand a year to run around in.
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That sounds almost Confucian.
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I'm with Runfer (upthread) - there's a case, if you're getting a company car, for keeping the Laguna until it needs too expensive a repair. Presumably Mrs A has a say in this - does she not use a car during the week?
I suspect that if you sell the Laguna the loss on it might cancel out any savings you make by running a classic car.
But then, as I've often said, finance isn't the only consideration. If this is about your wanting a classic car to tinker with, as DP has shown with the Alfa, there's plenty of fun to be had.
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>> Presumably Mrs A has a
>> say in this - does she not use a car during the week?
Oh, she'll have a say of course, but no, she uses trains in the week. Her new job means she doesn't need a car in the week at all.
>> But then, as I've often said, finance isn't the only consideration. If this is about
>> your wanting a classic car to tinker with, as DP has shown with the Alfa,
>> there's plenty of fun to be had.
Well it's a bit of both. A second car for occasional use - I don't want to pay £400 to insure it. So the answer to that seems to be something insurable on a classic policy. The bonus is that I get a toy to tinker. Win win. Of course, there will be maintenance costs, this is the downside. But a bit of fun/interest compensates for that.
The Volvo Runfer linked to is too high on the miles for my stomach, plus the enormous suspicion of clocking (well spotted Zeddo). If you clock a car down to 186k, what the hell was it on before?
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>>
>> The Volvo Runfer linked to is too high on the miles for my stomach, plus
>> the enormous suspicion of clocking (well spotted Zeddo). If you clock a car down to
>> 186k, what the hell was it on before?
>>
It's much more likely to have been clocked UP. A Volvo under 200,000 miles is suspiciously little, suggesting lots of cold runs on short trips. :)
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>>>I don't want to pay £400 to insure it. So the answer to that seems to be something insurable on a classic policy.
I don't like an insurance premium once it nears £400. However never assume what might be expensive until actually quoted.
My Alfa is around £200 fully comp with a decent policy/company, includes full business use for self and Mrs F. I thought it was going to be far more than that.
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>>>FWD should IMO be avoided
GB I'd never have considered front wheel drive a reliability issue.... actually I would have said it is just as likely to be more reliable... and lacking the faint but detectable drivetrain noise often found on high mileage and/or old rear wheel drive cars.
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>> GB I'd never have considered front wheel drive a reliability issue.... actually I would have
>> said it is just as likely to be more reliable... and lacking the faint but
>> detectable drivetrain noise often found on high mileage and/or old rear wheel drive cars.
>>
I think GB might have been referring to easier DiY with most rear wheel drives, more room to move and all that.
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The £400 refers to what we already pay for our 2002 Golf TDi auto.
Edit: the wife's got several accidents and some speeding points on her record, our postcode isn't the favourite of insurers wither.
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201309238925375/
Could be an expensive repair on the brakes on this example, but in principle this is luvverly.
Last edited by: Alanović on Wed 25 Sep 13 at 10:22
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>>>The £400 refers to what we already pay for our 2002 Golf TDi auto.
Ahh OK so you will have to be careful of these large engine barges in case they are more and it creeps to £600.
>>> 2002 Golf TDi auto
Wait a minute... you already have the sort of car you're looking for... why not get another slightly older one.
BTW from fairly recent experience I would avoid a W124 Mercedes for your requirements... as GB hints.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 25 Sep 13 at 10:29
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>> >>>The £400 refers to what we already pay for our 2002 Golf TDi auto.
>>
>> Ahh OK so you will have to be careful of these large engine barges in
>> case they are more and it creeps to £600.
>>
No, point missed again! A 20 year old barge can be insured on a classic policy for about a hundred quid, versus 10 year old Golf at 400. I've already run a few quotes, and have the experience of running that Volvo 360 (D reg) I had for a couple of years as a toy.
The plan would be: replace Laguna with free company car, replace Golf with old car for cheap classic insurance - it'll only be used a few miles at weekends, and not even every weekend at that I'd imagine. The point is that the second car can very much be a toy, a luxury, and the bonus is it could be run very cheaply - a 2002 Golf TDi isn't that.
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Fair enough, re the Volvo upthread but it then leads me anyway, to muse what would seem a reasonable mileage to believe on a 19 year old car? If it had fewer than 100k I'd be fairly suspicious. 10k a year sounds plausible for a family car. Big miles doesn't necessarily mean knackered if the vehicle has been kept properly maintained.
I've mentioned before a guy I know up in the north of Scotland who has a fleet of 40+ minicabs. He reckons he gets 400-500k miles out of the mainstream stuff ( Fords, Vauxhalls, Skodas, Nissans etc ) and has had a few Mercs / BMWs which he has run to nigh on a million miles. Obviously parts have had to be replaced of course but I guess you'd expect that.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Wed 25 Sep 13 at 11:14
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Not really seeing how that fits any of the thread criteria to be honest, Dog. Much as it's a decent jalopy.
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But not an older, interesting car that can be run on classic insurance. That's what the thread is about, not simply low cost motoring.
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I wouldn't send a dog - or even a Dog - out in that.
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>> I wouldn't send a dog - or even a Dog - out in that.
>>
Translation: you wouldn't want it parked outside your overpriced "bijou" Victorian terrace in a wannabe designer hellhole.
;-)
An excellent motor for those unafflicted by status anxiety.
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>> But not an older, interesting car that can be run on classic insurance. That's what
>> the thread is about, not simply low cost motoring.
I think you're searching for the holy grail. You don't want high mileage b.ut it needs to be old to run on a classic policy. Anything that has been used properly will have high mileage. It's really not a problem if it's been maintained well.
I can't see how anything that old isn't going to need a few quid spent on it every now and then.
Is £400 the best quote you could get for a golf tdi?
Last edited by: corax on Wed 25 Sep 13 at 13:08
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He does live in Reading. Awful place. Ten miles away in the Wannabe Designer Hellhole, I can insure a Volvo D5 and an LEC for £535 all in.
};---)
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Let's talk property prices, WdB..............
;-)
You haven't got my wife's driving record, either. I hope, for your sake.
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>> You haven't got my wife's driving record, either. I hope, for your sake.
Ahh, I see.....
:)
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Alanovic you said (give or take a few words)..
....second car to be used once a week on local duties... pretty reliable and robust... ready for use as and when it's needed and doesn't refuse to start/break down all the time... be nice if this car were something interesting and cheap to run given it's lack of use... needs to seat 4 in comfort.
The truth is any accountant, lifestyle advisor or feng shui consultant would tell you that you pretty well have that in the Golf and to go from a known 11yr old car to one double the age or more adds in potential unexpected costs that could easily wipe out the possible £300/yr insurance saving.
Also life changes when you least expect it and 3mths into the 26mpg barge you could find the second car mileage increases massively and you'd be wishing for a Tdi Golf.
But... if the sole point of the excersise is to get something really "interesting" then don 't try and save money.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 25 Sep 13 at 16:28
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I think, if this happens, it might just be an estate for the company car and a Volvo 480 Celebration.
www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C436955
I've had one before, it got written off when hit by a dustcart whilst parked in a street. I loved it. It's a toss up between that and an Alfasud for the cars I've enjoyed driving the most. Mine was a 1.7, so I'd look forward to seeing what a 2.0 Celebration is like.
I'm warming to the idea.
Last edited by: Alanović on Thu 26 Sep 13 at 11:18
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Its a dog! Everywhere its stopped you can see little pools of vital fluids have left marks. The interior sounds like a chicken shed, and the brakes are lethal.
No wonder the original buyer turned tail and ran.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 30 Sep 13 at 14:36
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>> Its a dog! Everywhere its stopped you can see little pools of vital fluids have
>> left marks. The interior sounds like a chicken shed, and the brakes are lethal.
>>
>> No wonder the original buyer turned tail and ran.
>>
= "interesting"
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It also has German plates - albeit with an UK number- so that is an MoT fail straight off. Effectively No MoT.
No brakes and he still drives it! what more can we say.
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Brakes certainly dodgy, I think the "pools of vital fluids" are actually puddles left over from it being washed, and the interior looks ok if you don't mind the colour mismatch.
Looks kind of a fun car to me.
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I like the way he concludes with "you bid with the aim to buy". Shows how little confidence he has in the buyer completing once they see it!
It doesn't look too bad in the photos, but then dark colours can hide a multitude of sins.
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Looks like things are swinging towards taking a cash alternative rather than joining the car scheme. Rats. Although, I'm glad in a way to be likely to keep the Laguna.
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yes the money will help with the repair bills.
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I've been trying to talk my Mum in to getting one to replace her Multipla this weekend. Does that constitute some kind of abuse of the (not so) elderly?
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Would I put my wife and children in a car not really designed to perform in a crash - no. But I ordered the curtain airbags which were extras on the Octavia in 08.
Possibly a Volvo because they were built to suit but it will only need a minor collision to result in injuries that would not be suffered in a later model.
I sometimes think it would be nice to have an old car but is it really worth the risk when it will be used all year round and not just on the odd sunny day.
With 6-8 year old cars so cheap why not get something more recent.
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>>
>> I sometimes think it would be nice to have an old car but is it
>> really worth the risk
Everyone is paranoid about risk these days. Most risk is in the hands of the driver and his driving style. Travelling around in a cushioned egg-box is just an excuse for taking more risks but blaming someone else.
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"Travelling around in a cushioned egg-box is just an excuse for taking more risks but blaming someone else."
Might be difficult to say that after a fatal accident. Did you watch Motorway cops last night?. I bet the guy driving the jag was glad he had a brand new cars and not something 25 years old.
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But the passenger in the Mini, also a new car, died. Nothing removes all risks from life.
Old cars do not offer the protection of new cars, but
old cars are less at risk because they do lower mileage, mainly on slower roads and mainly not at busiest times.
Also safer than motorbikes or bicycles in the event of a collision
Some people are not afraid of the odd risk
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Of course nothing removes all risk but modern car design certainly improves the odds if you are involved in a serious accident.
Deaths and injury rates on the roads have improved remarkably over the last 25 years. Do you think this is due to better designed cars and roads or improved driving skills?
Sure we all accept a certain amount of risk but if you carry passengers you are imposing that risk on others if you drive say without airbags.
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>> Did you watch Motorway cops last night?. I bet the guy driving the jag was glad he had a brand new cars and not something 25 years old.
He appeared to admit the only reason belts were being worn was because of the annoying alarm!
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>> driver and his driving style. Travelling around in a cushioned egg-box is just an excuse
>> for taking more risks but blaming someone else.
You just don't understand human nature and its desire for self preservation.
No-one drives around thinking "hey its ok I don't care if I crash the car will save me'
Everyone assumes a crash will hurt.
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This is all very true, but I'll say this. When driving an old Wolseley this weekend (see other thread), with the children in the back seat under lap belts, I was abundantly aware of the increased risk posed by such things as drum brakes, the total lack of any kind of modern crash mitigation equipment, and the very unforgiving nature of the old fashioned controls (clutch, gearbox etc). I adopted a far more cautious approach to driving the vehicle than I usually employ in my normal car. In fact, it made me realise maybe I need to bring that attitude in to play when in my normal vehicle. I was very, very pleased that I wasn't in that Wolseley on roads anything like as busy as those I usually drive on around the South East.
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>>
>> No-one drives around thinking "hey its ok I don't care if I crash the car
>> will save me'
>>
You could have fooled me! That'e exactly the attitude I see every day.
Only this morning someone came up behind me, impatiently tailgating, saw a brief clear bit of road ahead, went for it despite the white line coming up, ignored the white line, pulled in sharply just clearing an oncoming car.
He had no way of knowing the unseen car was 1 second away rather than 0.5 seconds, but "hey ho, I'm in my safe invincible box and my right foot is on the floor, God's on my side."
He'd have been safer in a Wolsley with dodgy brakes because he wouldn't have done it.
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>> He'd have been safer in a Wolsley with dodgy brakes because he wouldn't have done
>> it.
>>
Well you say that, but my Mum tells me a salient tale from the 60s. A guy overtook her and her father in their Magnette in a Frog Eye Sprite (or Midget, can't remember exactly, but anyway) in a similar way to that which you describe. Her Dad commented that the fella won't live long driving about like that. A mile further up the road (Windsor Road in Bray) they came upon the scene of his inevitable accident, lifeless body hanging out of the wreckage. So people do still drive stupidly without modern technology to protect them.
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So people do still drive
>> stupidly without modern technology to protect them.
>>
But your story was an anecdote from the 60s.
Then, he thought he was driving the safest thing on wheels. He didn't know safer cars were going to be invented. My point was that he wouldn't do it NOW, because he would know his car was not the safest.
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>> You could have fooled me! That'e exactly the attitude I see every day.
I had one overtake me in the lorry between Worcester and Hereford one morning, dark but early rush hour, full transporter too so long.
He overtook several cars behind me as we approaching a right hand bend, no problem as i assumed he'd cut in behind me but oh heck no he went for it and would not have cleared me till half round the corner.
Luckily i saw the headlights of the approaching car reflected into the hedge and hammered on the anchors full panic stop, he just scraped in and the other car and he missed by a fag paper, if i hadn't seen him or not braked it would have been a multi fatal with the speeds involved, road far too narrow and fast for any evasive actions.
Unfortunately for him that set of lights a mile later half way between by the filling station were on red, he was petrified when i got out to speak to him, not afraid of me cos i'm not i hope aggressive but i think he realised just how close he came to killing himself and several other innocents.
This is happening every day, and i don't quite know how you stop it, its not speed either its absolute incompetence or a sense of it won't happen to me, how do you educate people like that?
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Tue 1 Oct 13 at 10:53
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>
>> how do you educate people like that?
>>
By having a period of compulsory learning in an old car with drum brakes? :)
Last edited by: Cliff Pope on Tue 1 Oct 13 at 11:11
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>> By having a period of compulsory learning in an old car with drum brakes? :)
>>
Wouldn't have made a scrap of difference whatever they were driving Cliff, the combined head on speed would have been well in excess of 100mph, neither would have seen the other till they were yards apart, the bloke overtaking me had obviously never thought to look for oncoming headlights.
Some drum braked cross ply tyred RWD car experience would help though, as would a 6" spike sticking out of the steering wheel boss..;)
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>>>as would a 6" spike sticking out of the steering wheel boss..;)
And when a horse bolts out of a field into your path would the spike really help?
I often look at buying an old car, I may one day. But I will not kid myself... it will be a lot less safe place to be than our more modern cars given any accident or potential accident situation.
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>> I often look at buying an old car, I may one day. But I will
>> not kid myself... it will be a lot less safe place to be than our
>> more modern cars given any accident or potential accident situation.
>>
but overall it's still a very low risk in the scheme of things both in terms of probability and of effect
especially given the use that most "classic" cars get
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Well it depends how you view stats.
Perhaps overall risk is low due to journey types but when you chose to take the old car to town then at any point on that specific journey you are at greater risk.
We spend a lot of time running teens around and I feel a great responsibility for them and keeping them as safe as possible on the road.
To that end self and Mrs F swap cars if she is going on a longer run as for the past 5yrs my car has had far more safety systems than hers.
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>> Some drum braked cross ply tyred RWD car experience would help though, as would a
>> 6" spike sticking out of the steering wheel boss..;)
I wondered how long it would be before the 6 inch spike sheet appeared.
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>>>I wondered how long it would be before the 6 inch spike sheet appeared.
On some forums only a few posts before comparisons with Hitler.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Tue 1 Oct 13 at 11:51
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>>
>> >>
>> >> No-one drives around thinking "hey its ok I don't care if I crash the
>> car
>> >> will save me'
>> >>
>>
>>
>> You could have fooled me! That'e exactly the attitude I see every day.
And that exactly what you saw 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. You can have misty eyed and false memories, but driving today is safer than it has ever been, and thats because, as a whole we drive well, NOT worse because we think we wont get killed.
but "hey ho, I'm in my safe invincible box and my right foot
>> is on the floor, God's on my side."
>>
>> He'd have been safer in a Wolsley with dodgy brakes because he wouldn't have done
>> it.
Complete and utter cobblers of the highest order. Kids of my ere drove like that and we had never heard of crumple zones or airbags or even ruddy seat belts. Kids of your era did the same under the same circumstances - the accident and death rates form 50 years ago (with less traffic) prove it. Get real
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 1 Oct 13 at 11:45
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If you NEED a second family car, as opposed to just having a second car kicking around, then I wouldn't trust the reliability of a 20 year old one. If you NEED a reliable second car, I'd get something 7 or 8 years old as someone mentioned earlier. Cars of 20 years plus are for the enthusiasts to fiddle about with, and they won't cost any less to run.
Last edited by: Haywain on Tue 1 Oct 13 at 12:08
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20 year old car as second family car - RattleandSmoke
