Guidance and advice gratefully received.
Long story cut short - Put the MINI into a local bodyshop for deep scratch repair. Car stolen from body shop with one other over b/h weekend.
My insurer gives me a third degree phone interview from their 'anti fraud and crime team' then say case will be passed to claims team for payment.
Then say that unless the body shop can be shown to have not taken proper care then they will record it as a fault claim against my name. Body shpop say keys were locked in key safe and premises/yard locked.
So i'm stuffed each way, not only have to pay the excess then get a fault claim recorded against me, despite the fact that the bodyshop had custody of my car and were responsible for it.
Do I just grin and bear, or is there any other paths worth following?
Thanks
R40
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Was it stolen with the keys?
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Haven't really thought of this before, I guess theft of a car is always a "fault" claim in the usual insurance terms, ie they can't claim the money back from someone else.
In this case, I guess you would need to prove the bodyshop had been negligent in some way for it to become their "fault".
How was the car stolen, safe broken into & keys taken? Is there any video from security cam
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As they say it's a no claim discount, not a no blame discount.
If you don't have a claim you get a discount at renewal. If you have a claim but the Insurer is able to recover from a third party the Insurer will normally allow the bonus although contractually they don't have to if they meet the claim.
In your case the body shop does not seem at fault and there would be no chance of recovery from them. You lose your NCD I'm afraid
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Was there any neglect on behalf of the body-shop ? If so you may consider taking them to Court. What will be your financial loss if the insurance coughs up ?
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I don't think that it sounds as though your insurer is being unfair.
They have said if they can prove the body shop was negligent then you will preserve your NCD as they will try to claim the costs back from them, and if they cant they will pay out but you lose your NCD.
This is just the thing that we pay our insurance for so hopefully they play ball and make a fair offer, although I suspect you may need to push them a bit
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Thanks all. Yes the car was taken using the key left with the body shop. The quantifiable loss for me if the insurance coughs up is my £200 excess.
I do have protected no claims on my other car but not sure how that will play out..............
I'll bite the bullet then, unless my insurance can show how the car and its keys were stored was not good practice.
Whatever the logic I still find it hard that I get the blame. Will be pushing insurance hard to get a fair amount.
Cheers
R40
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ps no security cameras on the premises...........................
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Body shop must have its own insurance. Then OP's insurer can claim from their insurance.
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That was my thought - R40 can recover his losses either through his own uninsured losses scheme (it it has one) or through Small Claims Court. If the keys were in the safe as they say. Be interesting to try to figure out whether it was an inside job.
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I don't know what passes as good practice in this situation, but I would have expected the keys to have been very secure during closed / night hours - i.e. in a decent safe, not in one of those key rack things like a petty cash tin screwed to the wall.
Good luck and I hope despite the possible lost NCB it pans out OK for you
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Did the bodyshop have a "disclaimer" notice on display ?
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Can you disclaim the basic responsibility to take good care of goods entrusted to you?
I've certainly met disclaimers that did nothing other than occupy a bit of space.
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>> I still find it hard that I get the blame
You're not, but you're seemingly taking responsibility.
So, I have a question; Why are you claiming on your insurance? I know you can, but *why* are you?
You wouldn't claim on your insurance if the garage had an accident in the car when testing it, would you?
Presumably you wouldn't claim on your insurance if their workshop burned down?
So why are you claiming because it got stolen from them?
You should be requesting reimbursement from the Garage. If they have their own insurance, all well and good. But why on earth would you take the claim?
You;re doing this all wrong.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 27 Sep 13 at 17:08
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"You;re doing this all wrong."
I don't think so.
The problem with that is the garage and their insurers are likely to deny liability for the OP's loss. They do not have an absolute liability for property in the care or control and providing they acted reasonably to secure the vehicle they would not be liable.
The OP's Insurers seem to believe that they have little chance of recovery from the garage, I suspect for good reason.
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It is not an absolute liability, as you say. However, its an almost certainty;
Would you claim on your insurance if their workshop burned down and took your car with it?
Why not? And why is is it different?
On what basis could the OP Insurer's recover? The car was stolen, they've paid, and I assume nobody knows who did it. I'm not sure they can get their money back from the garage even if the garage was negligent without an insane level of proof.
The poster can, though. He just needs to show it was stolen.
Still, no skin off my nose either way. But this is not a situation which would cost me any money.
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Your post lacks logic
The OP and his Insurers are in exactly the same position regarding recovery from the garage. Legally the Insurer acquires the rights of the Insured by the process of subrogation.
If they can prove that the garage was negligent they can make a recovery. If the garage was not negligent they can't
The mere fact that the vehicle was stolen does not make the garage negligent. If they locked the vehicle in a locked compound and secured the keys then I would suggest that they were not negligent.
If the left the keys in the vehicle in an unlocked compound I would suggest they were.
The OP would be in exactly the same position if the garage had burned down. The garage owners would not necessarily be liable. It would be necessary to prove negligence on their part for the loss which could well prove difficult.
Falls within the area known as bailee's liability. The garage is the bailee the OP the bailor
Never assume that goods lost whilst within the care and control of others are the bailees absolute responsibility and make sure you have adequate insurance for such goods
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I think you don't understand the situation, however, its sunny Friday afternoon so I'm off out and you can think as you wish.
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Thank you, I did - well, couple of hours, anyway. Blooming hot, made pleasant by the vodka.
I would start with telling the garage to sort it out. It seems unlikely that the care could be stolen if all their duties had been performed. That being the case, then why claim on your policy at all? If one believes that they have any liability (contractual, perhaps) for the insurance excess, or any other loss, then they also have it for the loss of the car.
If not one, then probably not the other.
However, they are certainly not going to argue if you decide to go with your insurance, hence starting with the other route. Presumably there is some sort of claim on their own insurance for damage caused in entry, or to the key cupboard or something. So why not this?
Ultimately if you are unable to claim from them, although I think you probably can, then you may have to claim on your own insurance policy.
If you do claim on your insurance, then as has been said, it is a no claim discount and you will have claimed.
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As I have said it all boils down to whether the garage is liable for the loss. You would need to prove negligence on their part . The mere loss of your property whilst in the the care of a bailee does NOT make the bailee liable.
The garage's own insurance will cover goods for which they are LEGALLY LIABLE whilst in their care custody or control. If they are not liable there is no cover under the garage's insurance for such goods even those those goods were in the garages control.
IF the OP's insurance thought that the garage was legally liable and they could recover their loss they would have allowed the OP to keep the NCD
The fact that that they thought the garage was not legally liable tends to suggest strongly that a direct claim against the garage by the OP would fail and the OP and simply delay the process of the OP being in a position to buy a new car.
For these reasons I consider yours statement to the effect that the OP went about it the wrong way is unhelpful and misleading.
The OP does of course have the the option of trying to claim any excess and extra costs of his renewal premium directly from the garage and if he is successful in this no doubt the insurer will reinstate his NCD.
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>> consider yours statement to the effect that the OP went about it the wrong way is unhelpful and misleading.
I consider it neither, and find your approach defeatist.
But then that's the joy of these places.
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>> Would you claim on your insurance if their workshop burned down and took your car
>> with it?
>
Yep - Here's one: www.bedfordshire-news.co.uk/News/Holidaymakers-car-was-destroyed-in-garage-fire-22062012.htm
I've seen a few such cases in forums - even where it's only the car itself that has caught fire.
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>>The OP's Insurers seem to believe that they have little chance of recovery from the garage
That will be an "economic decision" not one dependent upon the law.
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You left the car "in the care" of the garage.
The garage is required to take reasonable steps to secure your car.
eg - lock the car and put the keys in a safe place - locked in a safe!
They left them out on a table - NEGLIGENCE = Liability for the theft!
Garage insurer will cover the loss of your car.
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Do you have legal cover with your insurance? It sounds like you need to use it.
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The Police crime report for the burglary should indicate in the MO field IF the safe has been attacked to obtain the keys or the keys were found laying around or left in the ignition. Unless of course the garage owner realised the issue and 'attacked' their own safe.
My money is on the keys being left in the ignition and the premises secured for the night.
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FC beat me to it about the police report. To me, this looks like an inside job. Where was the car ? In the workshop or yard and was the safe damaged/broken into.
Two of my neighbours have had cars stolen from their homes within a couple of weeks of main dealer services. Staff member has same model, but in poor condition.......has a spare key cut in lunch hour and then, knowing the address, goes and nicks the motor. Change of colour on paper, bit of ringing and voila. More difficult now with chipped keys, etc.
Good luck anyway...not a nice thing to happen.
Ted
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Useful and interesting discussions, my thanks to you all. Car was inside the yard but not workshop. Car in workshop was also stolen so two decent cars taken, the rest left. I suspect similar to Ted. Will ask for copy of Police report.
Have legal cover on other policy so will look into that.
Trouble is it is all made very hard for ordinary punter and I have a life to lead - but won't leave this just yet..........................
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stolen from body shop - Ins say 'fault' with me! - DP
