hi room, you here these stories of people having the car engine running whilst stationary on the drive/ roadside to warm up ... i know its a bit risky and the old bill dont like you doing it
but if you lock the car with the spare key is it ok to do it?
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I understand that the folk who might wish to relieve you of your car while it's ticking over on your drive, carry a small, quite heavy, quite sharp implement for breaking glass.
Last edited by: Clk Sec on Wed 13 Nov 13 at 13:05
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>> I understand that the folk who might wish to relieve you of your car while
>> it's ticking over on your drive, carry a small, quite heavy, quite sharp implement for
>> breaking glass.
>>
Ooooh, my two Rottweilers Ronnie and Reggie would be so upset if someone did that while they were snuggled up on the front seats.
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i was thinking 6 am on a frosty morning, not many tealeafs about at that time
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>> i was thinking 6 am on a frosty morning, not many tealeafs about at that
>> time
Probably a bit early even for the dedicated 'frosters'.
I have done it, but remind myself that the insurance won't pay out if it is stolen when I have left it running with the keys in it.
Consider a steering wheel lock?
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>> i was thinking 6 am on a frosty morning, not many tealeafs about at that
>> time
>>
And it doesn't matter about the neighbours, does it?
I mean they are asleep, aren't they? Well they were, until the bloke next door left his engine running on the drive.
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I'm up, so should they be.
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If someone did that regularly to me, a potato up the exhaust....
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And it doesn't matter about the neighbours, does it?
A six cylinder petrol engine ticks over so quietly you can still hear the birds farting.
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>> carry a small, quite heavy, quite sharp implement for breaking glass.
Or even a lightweight dot punch.
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It's more than the fact that the old bill don' t like you doing it, it is in fact illegal to leave a car with the engine running unattended on a public road. On a private driveway it is simply anti-social and polluting. I always understood that it didn't do your engine much good but I'm sure other views are available.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 13 Nov 13 at 16:09
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Do modern cars even warm up at idle? The Insignia is stone cold until it gets onto the motorway and has to do some work, and the BMW was the same before it.
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>> Do modern cars even warm up at idle?
Yup. The Lancer is cold to warm air defrosting the windows in 5 minutes.
(yes yes i know - insert "i said modern cars here" )
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>>The Lancer is cold to warm air defrosting the windows in 5 minutes
It's petrol innit. The MX5 has my toes warm in less than a mile.
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Our petrol Qashqai warms up quicker than my diesel Merc. I expect there's some clever reason for that. Its one of the things I miss about smoking. Leaning on the wall watching the car defrost itself while drinking a cuppa and having a fag is so much less stressful than messing about with a scraper at 5.00 in the morning.
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>> I expect there's some clever reason for that.
Isn't it because of a diesel engine's thermal efficiency?
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>> >> I expect there's some clever reason for that.
>>
>> Isn't it because of a diesel engine's thermal efficiency?
Hondootedly, as the lamented John Cole would have said.
The Outlander takes about 7 miles to warm through.
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I'd assume it's because petrol burns at a hotter temperature than diesel.
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>> I'd assume it's because petrol burns at a hotter temperature than diesel.
It's principally the higher compression ratio.
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A good number of years ago now, well, it was a "T" reg so what was that? 1999 maybe?
Anyway, my wife ( fairly briefly she hated it ) had an early Merc A class with the 170 diesel engine.
That had some kind of pre-heater which burned diesel to warm up the cabin and defrost the car. Smelled like an old paraffin stove on a winter's morning. ( the car that is )
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>> That had some kind of pre-heater which burned diesel to warm up the cabin and defrost the car..
Probably Webasto, or similar.
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The toucan had a heater assist (could have been a pre heater if VW had bothered to add that function - would have cost about three quid), a small diesel burning heater, with its own exhaust pipe that delivered a cloud of smoke from under the drivers door. - It smelled like burning candles and people remarked that the car was on fire.
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Isn't it that a diesel engine converts its fuel into more motion and less waste heat (possibly as a consequence of its higher compression ratio)?
The LEC's cabin begins to warm up noticeably sooner than the Volvo's, although they have similar-size diesel engines. Perhaps some extra expensive-car trickery at work there.
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I thought it was recommended that the fastest way to warm up an engine was just to drive it, so that it does some work? That way the heater will be working sooner.
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As long as you're not flooring it everywhere you go, you can get going as soon as you turn the key. This myth comes from an understandable place: Various engine parts and oil do take some time to warm up before they can operate at full capacity. However, an idling engine takes much longer to warm up, so it ends up experiencing far more cold-start wear and tear than if you just get in and drive it, gently.
When your engine is idling, it's still producing power, so what difference does it make if that power is being used to move the car or sit on the drive? Additionally, there are other parts of your car that also need warming up, like your transmission and wheel bearings, and those don't get any help until you actually get the thing moving.
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>> When your engine is idling, it's still producing power, so what difference does it
>> make if that power is being used to move the car or sit on the
>> drive? Additionally, there are other parts of your car that also need warming up, like
>> your transmission and wheel bearings, and those don't get any help until you actually get
>> the thing moving.
I'm far happier to use that power to warm up the inside of the car before I get it in it.
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Yep, I'm a start it on the drive guy (first time in ages was this morning).
Usually pop out and turn the key then back in the kitchen for my cuppa while it begins to thaw out. The A3 also has a fine leather interior which, not being heated, is damn cold so needs to be warmed through.
The climate control starts blowing warm air within a couple of minutes.
Mrs B's old Sharan was pointless to pre warm - never used to warm up at all until it was being driven
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Bucket of warm water over the windows, get in, start engine and drive off.
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>> Bucket of warm water over the windows, get in, start engine and drive off...
Then, drive half a mile until windscreen freezes over again, stop because you can't see, wait 5 minutes for car to clear windscreen ( without benefit of cup of tea to hand ) drive off again in foul mood.
;-)
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>> >> Bucket of warm water over the windows, get in, start engine and drive off...
>>
>> Then, drive half a mile until windscreen freezes over again, stop because you can't see,
>> wait 5 minutes for car to clear windscreen ( without benefit of cup of tea
>> to hand ) drive off again in foul mood.
>>
>> ;-)
specially after you have ripped the "stuck to the screen" wipers to bits
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>> >> >> Bucket of warm water over the windows, get in, start engine and drive
>> off..
Same here or fan heater on the parcel shelf for 30 mins
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Every cloud etc mind Z, one could always use the time to continue the search for the mysterious rattling thing in the boot.
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Hot water bottle on the dash under drivers side of screen for an hour and just melts frost lovely, warms interior just enough. Then can just drive off and car just defrosts as it warms up.
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Who gets up an hour before they leave? Tomorrow I'll get up at 04.00, shower, shave, dress, bowl of muesli, mug of coffee, simultaneously boot the dog out for a pee and be in the car by 04.20.
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>> Who gets up an hour before they leave?
Me. Dog likes walkies at 5.20am. Don't leave for work until 6.15. I can leave the car undercover at night if I remember. Mum's car has one of those electric screens but she usually puts her car away at night as she's sensible and logical!
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>> Who gets up an hour before they leave? Tomorrow I'll get up at 04.00, shower,
>> shave, dress, bowl of muesli, mug of coffee, simultaneously boot the dog out for a
>> pee and be in the car by 04.20.
>>
Err me? I rise at 06:30 and leave for work at 09:00 to arrive for 09:30. Gives me time to catch up on emails from nightly work (we are 24 hour) before the onslaught, relax for an hour watching morning TV and can feel much more relaxed about the day rather than rushing around.
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That does sound very civilised I must admit nbd !
On the other hand, tomorrow I'll be parked up in central London by 08.00, on my second breakfast by 08.10 and checking emails and reading the paper while I eat it. First meeting 09.00
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>> That does sound very civilised I must admit nbd !
>>
>> On the other hand, tomorrow I'll be parked up in central London by 08.00, on
>> my second breakfast by 08.10 and checking emails and reading the paper while I eat
>> it. First meeting 09.00
>>
That said, I would endure what you do just to be driving an LEC rather than my 11 year old Mitsubishi however good it is! I like the sound of being 'on the road' though sense tells me I'm much better being office based, you get to oggle the young women in more detail!
Last edited by: nice but dim on Wed 13 Nov 13 at 21:50
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>> you get to oggle the young women in more detail!
Commuting by train has that advantage too.
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Horses for courses as they say nbd ! I couldn't face being at the same desk every day. I did it once for about 5 years and felt like a caged animal. Wouldn't voluntarily go back to it.
As for ogling, well, I take your point, but at least I get to ogle a wide and ever changing selection. Although to be fair, as the years advance, I find I'm quite selective about my ogling and tend to save it for special occasions. Sunny days in London especially.
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>> Then, drive half a mile until windscreen freezes over again, stop because you can't see,
>> wait 5 minutes for car to clear windscreen ( without benefit of cup of tea
>> to hand ) drive off again in foul mood.
>>
>> ;-)
Depends on local conditions. Today it was probably -1 and warm water from can was enough - round corner and into sunlight and ice melts. If frost is more severe and there's a mild re-freeze then de-icer wielded from driver's window gets one by.
At -5 or greater an idling run up in drive and/or letting a fan heater from a 'shore' supply thoroughly pre heat the cabin might is worthwhile.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 13 Nov 13 at 21:54
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>> >> Bucket of warm water over the windows, get in, start engine and drive off...
>>
>> Then, drive half a mile until windscreen freezes over again, stop because you can't see,
>> wait 5 minutes for car to clear windscreen ( without benefit of cup of tea
>> to hand ) drive off again in foul mood.
Hot water, cold screen (with stone chip) equals a cracked screen, and a VERY foul mood.
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>> Hot water, cold screen (with stone chip) equals a cracked screen, and a VERY foul
>> mood.
>>
In my experience, it's excessive heat from inside the car which cracks windscreens.
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>In my experience, it's excessive heat from inside the car which cracks windscreens.
Respect NC.
It got pretty hot in my 1600E but not enough to crack the windscreen.
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I'm still waiting for the (just inside MOT limit) bulls eye on the passenger side to crack the screen - been there 4 years so far..... Must get it replaced, since the rest of the screen (at >150k) is pitted and scratched massively.
OTOH a very small scuff (like the size of the small finger nail clipping!) in the middle of a Xsara Picasso windscreen propagated a crack from side to side when it was washed @ below -10 after it had been sitting for a while with the engine idling (No 1 son being asleep inside). Didn't half go bang!
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@RichardW
What you're seeing is the difference between a so-called Hertzian crack, and a radial-median crack. The Hertzian crack is usually caused by a more blunt indenter, and is less likely to propagate. Vica-versa for the crack with the radial-median pattern.
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I reckon it has more to do with how much stress the windscreen is under in relation to the body shell.
I have about 6 chips in the Lancer screen (none an mot fail), one looks like it should crack, (two minute cracks either side) but hasn't yet in three years.
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>>it has more to do with how much stress
The geometry and orientation of the crack with respect to the stress field, and the level of stress together govern crack propagation in glass.
Heat applied to the outside of the windscreen from warm water tends to put the glass on the outer surface of the screen into compression. Cracks don't tend to grow in compressive stress fields.
Heat applied to the inside, from the heater, puts the inside surface of the glass into compression. For equilibrium, this puts the outer surface into tension. Tensile stresses are good for growing cracks....ping!!
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>> Bucket of warm water over the windows, get in, start engine and drive off.
Unlock garage. Start engine and reverse car out. Lock garage and drive off.
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It would hard to measure the difference, if any between the temp in the car after 2 minutes idling and after 2 minutes driving from rest, I would imagine. Where is Number Cruncher?
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OMG ! 0400hrs, Humpy ? Think of poor folk like me with another 5 hours to rough it in a nice warm bed !
If it's forecast frost, I let SWM park in the drive and I put the Vitara on the road facing East so the screen gets the morning Sun. HRW will sort the back end. Scrape the drivers window and all the nearside plus the mirrors and off we go. No poncy heated mirrors here !
Office know better than to ring me before 0800 anyway and the jobs never urgent unless there's a threat of a tow away by City Parking Service. I usually beat them to it .
If SWM's off early then I have one of those white electric tube heaters on the parcel shelf plugged in to the outside socket through a time switch. A sign saying ' UNPLUG ' is on the steering wheel.........and she does...so far !
Ted
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Actually to be fair, if it's frosty or snowy, my wife will go and scrape/clear my car for me while I'm in the shower. She's good like that. Makes me sandwiches for lunch and a flask for the journey too.
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What is all this about warming up your car before driving off - burning fuel going nowhere?
You put on your coat, right? 'Cos you'll need that at the other end - none of this "my car is my overcoat" stuff; don't be ridiculuous.
You get in the car, start it and reverse out of the garage. This is the place for a car; it's not for general storage - that's what lofts and outhouses are for.
You drive off.
I suppose some of you paupers don't actually have a garage.
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"I suppose some of you paupers don't actually have a garage."
Some of us have no need to rush out in the morning or afternoon come to that and can afford to simply wait for the frost to melt in in its own good time.
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My diesel Golf has an PTC electrical auxiliary air heater installed between the pollen filter and the heat exchanger, it provides additional heating to the vehicle interior after cold-starting the engine, for it to work you have to have the ECON button off and it usually gives me warm air within a few miles.
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Electronic engines are much better, but a cool engine tends to run rich, something that wears cylinder bores, rings and pistons. So it's a good idea to warm it up by making it do some gentle work before using any high revs. Leaving it idling may be more comfortable for you, but it may shorten the life of your engine. As I say though, probably not by much these days.
It's a relief in a way not to have to make careful, sensitive, vigilant use of the choke.
VW 411 and 412 had a petrol stove and a timer that could be set to turn that on and warm up the car - without running the engine - before you got into it in the morning. Mine didn't work, but I have often wondered how many Hamburg executives were startled to see their cars bursting into flames outside the house as they gulped their coffee.
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Mr Focal
You have just expressed my sentiments exactly.
I find it hard to understand my neighbours, most of whom have double garages, who inconsiderately wake me at some godforsaken hour, say 7.30, scraping ice of their screens. For gawds sake empty the garage. Clear out your junk, have a yard sale.
And if you must have a great big Discovery that doesn't fit in the garage, please live elsewhere!
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Yes but, bearing mind that many new build houses today have one garage into which a Mondeo won't fit, and that one has to keep bicycles, lawnmowers and a barbie somewhere, what is a good way forward?
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>> one has to keep bicycles, lawnmowers and a barbie
>> somewhere, what is a good way forward?
>>
Shed
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My shed's kept in the garage.
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I think newer diesels warm up much quicker.
The Rio blasts out heat within 2 miles of driving but if sat idling it would take longer to warm up.
Can be a pain in winter as I cant drive off until the window is clear but to get the temp up quicker I have to drive it.
The old 2.0l DTI Astra took over 10 miles of driving before it was up to temperature.
The worst experience with the old Astra was when I drove into work at -19C a few years back.
If I turned the heating up inside the car the engine temp dropped below the 70C marker.
Needless to say at -19C it drank a quarter of a tank of fuel to drive 20 miles to work !
I guess its the downside to having a huge Iron block engine.
The newer Diesels tend to handle temperature differences better.
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>> I think newer diesels warm up much quicker.
Seconded. My 2008 2.0 Renno diesel warms up as quickly as any petrol engine I had before, and much faster then the other diesels I've had (VW 1.9TDi and FIAT 1.9JTD).
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If your car won't fit the garage then the garage is your shed! QED
Last edited by: Meldrew on Thu 14 Nov 13 at 09:27
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>> "I suppose some of you paupers don't actually have a garage."
>>
>> Some of us have no need to rush out in the morning or afternoon come
>> to that and can afford to simply wait for the frost to melt in in
>> its own good time.
>>
>>
>>
>>
I don't think I've met anyone who actually keeps their car in the garage...
Although the Insignia doesn't actually fit in mine unless I exit through the sunroof.
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>> I don't think I've met anyone who actually keeps their car in the garage...
>>
Eight houses round our cul de sac. Except for lady in her sixties who lives alone all have at least two cars.
Two houses put a car in garage, one case and Audi A3 and other a Honda Jazz. Don't think either of our Berlingos would fit; height of up/over door is a factor as well as width. In practice ours is half full of bikes.
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>> >> I don't think I've met anyone who actually keeps their car in the garage...
>> >>
>>
>> Eight houses round our cul de sac. Except for lady in her sixties who lives
>> alone all have at least two cars.
>>
>> Two houses put a car in garage, one case and Audi A3 and other a
>> Honda Jazz. Don't think either of our Berlingos would fit; height of up/over door is
>> a factor as well as width. In practice ours is half full of bikes.
Of the 15 houses or so near mine I think only 5 actually have a garage. Most don't use them but they do have a long driveway. The rest of use just park on the street, mines 100-200 yrds away, no where closer. To clear mine I just leaving it running until the windows are clear.
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...so the screen gets the morning Sun.
Paper boy has special instructions, Ted?
I'm puzzled at how many here seem to be concerned about interior temperature. All I care about is whether I can see out; if I can, I'm off, and the heated seats (you do have those, don't you?) will take care of me until the climate is under control.
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>> I'm far happier to use that power to warm up the inside of the car
>> before I get it in it.
>>
Fair enough, if that is your preference.
But the engine will be producing the maximum amount of pollutants, and for a longer period because you are prolonging the time it takes to get up to full temperature. Just because the heater circuit is getting warm doesn't mean the engine block, oil, and cylinders are fully warmed up. It's a bit like hanging your handbag on the choke knob.
I think I'll cancel my reservation on buying your car when you have finished with it. I'd like one that's going to give a longer engine mileage. :)
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>> But the engine will be producing the maximum amount of pollutants, and for a
>> longer period because you are prolonging the time it takes to get up to full
>> temperature. Just because the heater circuit is getting warm doesn't mean the engine block, oil,
>> and cylinders are fully warmed up.
yes it does. It has to or the heater circuit wouldn't get warm.
>It's a bit like hanging your handbag on the
>> choke knob.
>>
>> I think I'll cancel my reservation on buying your car when you have finished with
>> it. I'd like one that's going to give a longer engine mileage. :)
I don't think I would sell my wonderfully maintained and sympathetically driven car to an unuapreciative dunderhead who thinks it has a choke knob!
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As someone who views an idling engine as a pseudo-emergency and something that needs immediate rectification, the thought of my engine sat there guzzling down my precious fuel would be too much for me and cause me to need medication. I use a fan heater for 10 mins which I reckon is cheaper! Me tightwad? Never.
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1. Open garage door.
2. Start car.
3. Turn on heated seats.
4. Drive car out of garage.
5. Close garage door.
6. Drive orf.
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"1. Open garage door.
2. Start car.
3. Turn on heated seats.
4. Drive car out of garage.
5. Close garage door.
6. Drive orf."
A man after my own heart - almost. Heated seats? What are you - a wimp? Are you wearing a swimsuit or something?
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he's been siting in the wee stained damp seats at Witherspoons, needs to dry his strides out.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 14 Nov 13 at 10:45
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>> he's been siting in the wee stained damp seats at Witherspoons, needs to dry his
>> strides out.
>>
Didn't know you went to Witherspoons.....
;-)
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>> A man after my own heart - almost. Heated seats? What are you - a
>> wimp? Are you wearing a swimsuit or something?
>>
Wimp?
Of course.
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"choke knob"
Deep throat?
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It seems to take an inordinate length of time for the Skoda 'infotainment' (!!!) system to (a) work out where it is (b) negotiate with my mobile of a morning (*) - indeed long before the sat nav can even ask where you are wanting to go, the 'ecotips' and advising one not to run the engine whilst the car is stationary (**) so the usual routine at this time of year would be start car, clean dew/frost off windows, then one should be fully connected and reading to burger off after no more than sixty seconds or so. On really frosty mornings, a jug of slighlty warm water on the windscreen jujst before you set off, plus windscreen wipers on max to remove water off screen before it freezes. W5 screenwash is only £6 for 5 litres at Lidl (***) so no excuse for not having a functional screenwash
(*) essential to have a decent audiobook to numb the pain of the M6/62 - currently halfway through the whole of Sjowall and Wahloo's Martin Beck series, the original Nordic Noir from the 60/70s - funny how little has changed
(**) ecotips - in the same category as gearchange warnings - F.T.O.O.F.A.G.O.W.M
(***) Lidl (or was it Aldi) were knocking out foil windscreen protectors for <£3 the other week, so I picked a per up for the both of us - I guess I'll find out soon enough if they are utterly essential or chocolate teapots. Butter than spending £14 for one in Costco
Last edited by: borasport on Thu 14 Nov 13 at 12:08
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Anything that prevents dew settling on the glass will save you the bother of removing the frost in the morning. I've used polythene dust sheets from Screwfix, trapped under the wipers (stopped intentionally unparked) and in the front doors. Makes a big difference and I ought to get back into the habit now with the LEC. Only problem is finding somewhere to put the icy sheet to dry - you don't really want it inside the car.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Thu 14 Nov 13 at 13:58
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>>problem is finding somewhere to put the icy sheet to dry
Hang it in the garage?
;>)
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winter warm up - Clk Sec
