| Motoring Discussion > Manual labour | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: Runfer D'Hills | Replies: 74 |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 13:04
Manual labour - Runfer D'Hills
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My wife's car needed petrol this morning and another errand need to be run so I thought I'd take her car, do what I needed to do and fill it up for her while I was out. The short journey, about a 12 mile round trip, involved negotiating two small towns with their attendant queues, traffic lights and general stop start conditions. My last two cars and an odd one or two previously have been automatics but my wife prefers manuals. The thought didn't escape me this morning that a manual is just a lot more faff in traffic. Not that I minded really but it did sort of make me question why so many still buy them. You'd have thought, or I would anyway, that in this day and age of congested urban roads and camera infested every other type of road that any perceived performance benefit of manuals would be far outweighed by the advantages in normal driving of an auto. I do accept that a low powered engine combined with an auto box can be painfully slow of course and that some auto versions of some models use more fuel. However, my E Class diesel auto is far more fuel economical than my wife's petrol manual Qashqai. Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Fri 27 Dec 13 at 13:07
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 13:20
Manual labour - Boxsterboy
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Totally agree that daily driver cars are better with an auto box these days. The congested roads in the south east mean that the opportunities to enjoy a manual box are far outweighed by time spent clutch-pumping on busy roads. But of course many on here are fortunate to live in less crowded areas, and I can well understand their preference for a stick-shift. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 13:22
Manual labour - sooty123
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I think you say it depends on the car. Small cars tend to be expensive options for a slush box, small cars are popular. Many big saloons probably work better with autos, but not many buy big saloons. Other reasons might be, young people buy manuals so force of habit, not everyone has a commute through towns and cities. Then of course there is personal preference and prejudice ;) Me I've never owned an auto, driven a few in America as hire cars. Never really crop up on the cars that I buy or are too expensive. Not enough brass to buy a new car so can't do much about it. I do prefer a manual, but that's probably what I'm used to. My commute is across country, I go on the outskirts(ish) of one town that's the closest to urban comuting I get, a manual is good fun on the way to work, brightens the day up. Last edited by: sooty123 on Fri 27 Dec 13 at 13:24
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 13:38
Manual labour - R.P.
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| The T5 is an auto..not a bad box as things go. It has DSG for its sport mode. Went out playing with the Christmas traffic the other night. Hitting the "kickdown" had an amazing effect from a fifty limit of Britannia Bridge onto the 70s(ish) on the A55. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 13:41
Manual labour - Runfer D'Hills
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I do get the "fun" thing Sooty of course, but a lot of modern autos can be driven in manual mode if preferred, either from flappy paddles or tipping the gearlever or both. I've driven mine a few times like that for the sheer hell of it but after having tried it, generally, terminal laziness sets in and I set it back to full auto. On mine anyway, you can also set it to "S" mode which sharpens everything up. Tried that a handful of times too but in the end generally, terminal etc... ;-) |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 13:49
Manual labour - PeterS
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| I haven't driven mine in 'S' mode for any length of time, and can probably count on the fingers of one hand it's even been used. I will quite often use the paddles to drop down a gear or two though, either for a bit of engine braking or before overtaking. Never use them for changing up though, other than the fact holding the 'up' paddle for a second or two puts it back into full auto mode! But then the auto box suits the car; our Up! is a manual, and though I think an auto is available I'm not sure it'd suit it at all. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 14:02
Manual labour - Armel Coussine
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I've only owned one auto and that was a very long time ago in the US. Gearchanging is a wholly automatic and unconscious process for me and I only become aware of it on the fairly rare occasions when I mess it up (no one's perfect). Herself has a prejudice against autos although the only one she's driven was an early Micra auto which was indeed a horrid reluctant little beast. If we could afford a Jaguar or big Merc she'd soon get used to it. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 14:36
Manual labour - Cliff Pope
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>> Gearchanging is a wholly automatic and unconscious process for I agree - manual geer-changing IS automatic. I can see it might make sense for a new driver to learn in an automatic and then stick to automatics for life. But the licence makes that inevitably limiting. I don't really understand that. There are so many other processes involved in driving, why does the driving licence focus on one of them and then have two kinds of licence? Why not an ABS and a non-ABS licence? Why not diesel or petrol? Or large car and small car, as used to be a distinction many years ago? |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 14:40
Manual labour - sooty123
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>> >> I don't really understand that. There are so many other processes involved in driving, why >> does the driving licence focus on one of them and then have two kinds of >> licence? >> Why not an ABS and a non-ABS licence? Why not diesel or petrol? >> Or large car and small car, as used to be a distinction many years ago? >> I guess it's quite difficult to change over to manual if you've never driven one. Other things like ABS, fuel type are things that can be picked up when driving. Clutch control is quite a big thing specific to manuals and pretty important. It's easy to define as well. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 15:07
Manual labour - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> I don't really understand that. There are so many other processes involved in driving, why >> does the driving licence focus on one of them and then have two kinds of >> licence? >> Try teaching someone with an auto licence to drive a manual. The few times I did it it was like starting them from scratch again. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 10:53
Manual labour - Cliff Pope
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>> >> Try teaching someone with an auto licence to drive a manual. The few times I >> did it it was like starting them from scratch again. >> Yes, I can see that. But the bigger problem seems to be older people swapping to auto, and there is no corresponding licence restriction. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 11:04
Manual labour - Roger.
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>> >> >> >> >> Try teaching someone with an auto licence to drive a manual. The few times >> I >> >> did it it was like starting them from scratch again. >> >> >> >> Yes, I can see that. >> But the bigger problem seems to be older people swapping to auto, and there is >> no corresponding licence restriction. Oy! We have just swapped to an auto with no problems! |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 11:58
Manual labour - WillDeBeest
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No reason why you should have any, Roger. AC makes the point lower down (this thread is all over the place, isn't it?) that a modicum of mechanical awareness goes a long way, and given that you come here, I presume you have at least that much. You start by knowing you're driving something different - not just 'easier' - and need to learn some new habits. The danger lies in a process that begins with 'Grandpa's finding a manual too much to control' and ends with a big hole in a shop window. Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Sat 28 Dec 13 at 12:00
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 17:59
Manual labour - Cliff Pope
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>> >> The danger lies in a process that begins with 'Grandpa's finding a manual too much >> to control' and ends with a big hole in a shop window. >> That's exactly my point. If there is a real need at all for a licence distinction, why is it this way round? |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 20:36
Manual labour - Bromptonaut
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>> That's exactly my point. >> >> If there is a real need at all for a licence distinction, why is it >> this way round? To pinch a line from the film Apollo 13. "let's look at this from a status point of view" The driver is losing the capacity to control a car. Is the answer to give him a car with different systems that he's never had to deal with before or to say 'time to give up Grandpa'?? A different question from whether someone with capacity can drive an autobox (to me like a dodgem car) when they normally have to deal instinctively with gears. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 11:18
Manual labour - Dog
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>>Try teaching someone with an auto licence to drive a manual. The few times I did it it was like starting them from scratch again. But why would you/they want to for heavens sake? .. SWMBI passed her test (2nd time) on an auto. in the late 1970's, I did try to 'introduce' her to a stick shift once or twice over the years, to which her response was - #!?! that! I feel the same about starting handles and semaphore indicators funnily enough. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 11:29
Manual labour - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> But why would you/they want to for heavens sake? .. SWMBI passed her test (2nd >> time) on an auto. in the late 1970's, I did try to 'introduce' her to >> a stick shift once or twice over the years, to which her response was - >> #!?! that! >> >> The auto licence holders I taught on manual needed to either for job related reasons (Not many firms will look for an autobox Transit to suit one individual) or because with two or more cars in the family they were restricted in what they could use. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 11:39
Manual labour - Dog
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>>The auto licence holders I taught on manual needed to either for job related reasons (Not many firms will look for an autobox Transit to suit one individual) or because with two or more cars in the family they were restricted in what they could use. Say n'more squire. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 11:41
Manual labour - sooty123
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>> (Not many firms will look for an autobox Transit to suit one individual) I drove one of those recently, very odd setup. The auto was operated by buttons on the top of the dash. Just three buttons P R D, which looked like they were for w/screen demister. Never seen anything like it before. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 11:45
Manual labour - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> I drove one of those recently, very odd setup. The auto was operated by buttons >> on the top of the dash. Just three buttons P R D, which looked like >> they were for w/screen demister. Never seen anything like it before. >> My old guvnor had one about thirty years back. My comment of "You don't see many of those", brought the response, "I wish I hadn't". He had a few reliability issues. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 15:47
Manual labour - Bromptonaut
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>> I don't really understand that. There are so many other processes involved in driving, why >> does the driving licence focus on one of them and then have two kinds of >> licence? >> Why not an ABS and a non-ABS licence? Why not diesel or petrol? >> Or large car and small car, as used to be a distinction many years ago? Like most legislation the 'auto only' license was a response to a real or perceived problem. By the mid sixties ordinary cars were becoming available with auto boxes. Because they were seen as an easy route to a full license many were used by driving schools. Problem then of course was that these people went straight into a manual car which they could not handle. I think the law changed around 1967, around the same time as the breathalyser. My Mother passed her test in 1966 on an auto having previously failed twice in a manual. She then drove manuals until well after she retired. Her last two cars before she stopped driving were autobox Clios. She was always a nervous but safe driver. My Father, who passed on a manual just after the war, was more confident but with hindsight a liability behind the wheel. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 18:42
Manual labour - Robin O'Reliant
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>> I think the law changed around 1967, around the same time >> as the breathalyser. >> >> 1970 to be exact. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 23:14
Manual labour - Westpig
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>>>> Herself has a prejudice against autos although the only one she's driven was an early >> Micra auto which was indeed a horrid reluctant little beast. If we could afford a >> Jaguar or big Merc she'd soon get used to it. >> I'd think carefully AC, you don't want 'er indoors' doing this to you..I was nearby when this one happened...and got there minutes after the call...very sad, a mother ran over and killed her own daughter with an automatic Merc. The usual panic with the accelerator instead of brake. tinyurl.com/ptnods6 |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 23:38
Manual labour - Armel Coussine
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>> The usual panic with the accelerator instead of brake. Hardly a week goes by without one or two of those Wp. But I think I would trust herself not to do one, once the car and its ways had been properly explained to her. Her failsafe mode is slow- stop. However it's perfectly possible she'd refuse to drive a large auto were I to have the good fortune to lay hold of one, because it was an auto. She's a bit like that. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 14:05
Manual labour - sooty123
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>> I do get the "fun" thing Sooty of course, but a lot of modern autos >> can be driven in manual mode if preferred, either from flappy paddles or tipping the >> gearlever or both. I've tried the gear lever thing in autos, always seemed a bit unatural, not the same thing at all. Never tried the flappy paddles jobs. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 17:09
Manual labour - No FM2R
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>>but a lot of modern autos can be driven in manual mode if preferred I can't manage that. Mostly I drive autos, but I do have one car with a manual box. I manage to drive it with gusto and little issue. But, I cannot manage one of the autos in manual mode. It just goes wrong, like I've never driven a manual in my life. Too high revs when I forget to change, too low revs when I panic and change too soon etc. etc. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 13:58
Manual labour - Dog
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I've owned automatics for decades now and I wouldn't be interested in owning a car with a manual gearbox. But as Runfor D'Humph says, if your first experience of an automatic is some low powered older car, it could put you orf automatics for life! I still enjoy driving my 2.0 Subaru Forester auto which I've owned now for 8 months, the engine/gearbox seem well-matched to me and it doesn't drink too much really, for a 2.0 petrol auto, unless I hit the loud pedal. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 14:05
Manual labour - Robin O'Reliant
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| I've done less than ten mile total in autos, one a test drive in a Mark 1 Escort estate (Absolutely awful), a quick trip round the block in a Rover SDI (Ok), and a few mile each in a Rover 216 and a Punto. Both the latter felt nice and relaxing to drive, but the distances were too short to decide if I'd like to live with one. I probably would, but living in a rural area where five cars stuck behind a tractor counts as a serious traffic jam it just never occurs to me to look for one. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 15:33
Manual labour - madf
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I love autos: traffic lights/jams and parking are SOOOO much easier.. No performance or fuel consumption penalties so far. Stop/start driving when tired and driving a manual is a pia. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 15:51
Manual labour - Bromptonaut
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>> I love autos: traffic lights/jams and parking are SOOOO much easier.. No performance or fuel >> consumption penalties so far. >> >> Stop/start driving when tired and driving a manual is a pia. I'd agree with that, particularly in a car with a heavy clutch. If stop/start city driving was a significant part of my time behind the wheel I might think of an auto. Fortunately Northampton has relatively few jams and as a London commuter I usually travelled to/from the station outwith either peak. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 16:04
Manual labour - Runfer D'Hills
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All good stuff ! Now, just to be impish, I'm going have a stab at making a list of reasons why an auto box might be preferable and another to support the manual. Auto - easier to use relaxing in use no dmf to fail choice ( usually ) of manual changes if required easy to drive on low friction surfaces ( eg snow / ice ) Manual - cheaper to buy more "fun" ( debatable but hey ok ) sometimes give better economy ( less of a difference now than previously ) So far the only compelling reason to go manual seems to be price and given that people willingly pay extra for metallic paint or bigger wheels or whatever that feels a bit weak as an argument too. So, c'mon then, counter lists welcome ! |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 16:21
Manual labour - sooty123
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Autos tend to be more expensive when/if they go bang. I suppose it depends what you want. I remember passing my test, everyone had to have manual. Autos were seen as for those who couldn't pass a 'proper' test or something your grandad would drive. IE very much a no no. I'm sure there are better reasons now though ;-) |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 16:13
Manual labour - Avant
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I'm a waverer: my last five cars, including the current new one, have been auto (CVT), manual, manual, auto (DSG), manual. This time round, while the new Octavia was on order, I did wonder whether I was doing the right thing - would I miss the convenience of the DSG, especially in traffic? I've been glad to find that I don't. The extra legwork with the clutch is more than made up for by the more immediate acceleration: although the Octavia vRS with DSG was a strong performer, there was always a slight feeling of the transmission holding the car back. Other factors - SWMBO doesn't like automatics; and also if in retirement I have to keep this car for longer than its predecessors, I won't have the risk of an expensive DSG failure. The judges still seem to be out on the longevity of DSG, even the superior wet-clutch version as on the Octavia. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 16:18
Manual labour - Runfer D'Hills
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| In truth Avant, I can happily live with either. As in your case, for some reason, my wife prefers manuals. She can't really say why though. It wouldn't be a deal breaker either way for me but I'd probably, actually almost certainly go for an auto on an otherwise level playing field. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 16:37
Manual labour - Armel Coussine
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>> In truth Avant, I can happily live with either. Me too. In both cases a driver with what's called 'mechanical sympathy' will make a better, less noticeable, swifter and more economical fist of it. I'm not so keen on DSG and multiple driver overrides which seem pointless and fussy. A modern slushpump with locks on the cruising ratio(s) would suit me best. And I actively dislike autos with a floor change and the indicator down there. It should always be a fingertip steering column thing. Safer and more rational. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 16:38
Manual labour - Skip
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I have gone back to a manual with my new 308 which is something I swore that I would never do. The only reason I did was the lack of availability of "proper" TC auto on medium sized cars now, most are now automated manuals (which having driven most variations of it) I hate, or CVT which is better, but seems to me very noisy & still nowhere near as good as a TC box. I have adjusted back to a manual far better than I thought that I would & only really miss an auto in heavy traffic. First start thing in the morning I frequently still fire it up, put my foot on the brake & go to move the lever back into drive, fortunately as soon as I grasp the knob I realise my mistake ! However, given the choice it would be an auto every time. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 16:57
Manual labour - Bill Payer
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>> However, my E Class diesel auto is far more fuel economical than my wife's petrol >> manual Qashqai. >> Maybe it's not toooo bad as the Squashy is petrol but diesel SUVs absolutely cry out to be autos - my boss had a 6 speed manual diesel VW Touareg and it was draining being driven in it in normal traffic with so much gear lever stirring going on. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 17:11
Manual labour - Mike H
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I've only owned two autos. The first was a painfully slow twin carb Saab 99 with 108bhp, with a 3-speed box, which regularly returned 22mpg. After a brief 6 month period of ownership I went back to a manual. When we bought our current Saab, a 9-5 Aero estate, all the research I read seemed to indicate that the 5-speed TC auto with flappy paddles made it a much more pleasant drive than the manual, partially because of the poor quality of the change. We've now owned it for nearly 7 years. Back in November this year I hired a manual Insignia diesel estate, and having driven in heavy traffic and relatively open roads, it convinced me that auto was the way to go. Nothing wrong with the gearchange or engine in the Insignia (it did have other irritations), just couldn't see the point of keep waggling the stick. Yes, it was nice to drop down and get in absolutely the right gear and hold it, but it seemed ultimately a pointless exercise. And I have recently driven my father's manual Peugeot Partner with the 90bhp engine, which has a very unpleasant change. What I would say is, that to get the best from an auto, IMHO it really needs to be attached to an engine with a bit of grunt based on my experiences. With regards to reliability, a TC auto should be more reliable than a manual box, with all the electronic trickery to make sure that nothing in the box is being overloaded. Certainly my Saab's box has been no trouble, and has covered 204,000 trouble-free miles. Last edited by: Mike H on Fri 27 Dec 13 at 17:13
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 18:20
Manual labour - WillDeBeest
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One of each (manual and TC) here, so it's something I've given some thought to. In the worst stop-start traffic, I agree the auto is less bother, although I'm painfully aware of the fuel it's using to stir the porridge. But to negotiate a twisty town centre, especially one with mini-roundabouts, I prefer the sharpness of a manual. There's a particular situation where I approach a junction unsure if I'm going to have to stop. In the manual I approach on the brake, dropping the clutch as the line looms, and if the road clears suddenly it's the work of a moment to snap into second and be on my way. The TC box can't read the road ahead - or my mind - so is dawdling to a halt in third or fourth, only to be caught flat-footed by my sudden request for movement. Nor is there an easy way to use the selector to prepare a lower gear - not without the risk of inadvertently selecting first and alarming every pedestrian within earshot. Perhaps it's a foible of the LEC '5G' box (which is beautifully smooth and inconspicuous at higher speeds.) Like Peter, I use the selector occasionally to pre-select my overtaking ratio - kickdown feels crude by comparison - and regularly for engine braking on the two steep descents on my route home. In open-road driving I seldom feel the need, although with the Skoda and (especially) Volvo autos I tried, I found manual selection more satisfactory than letting the box decide. I think, overall, I'm a convert to autos. I've mentioned I'm considering the BMW 5 for next time, and each time I visualise it, I realize the car I'm thinking of is an auto. But I also fancy a Golf GTI - and that would have to be manual. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 18:23
Manual labour - Runfer D'Hills
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>>The TC box can't read the road ahead - or my mind Try selecting "S" in that circumstance WDB. Sharpens everything up. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 20:13
Manual labour - swiss tony
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>> >>The TC box can't read the road ahead - or my mind >> >> Try selecting "S" in that circumstance WDB. Sharpens everything up. >> Unless... the car also has stop/start. I recently had the misfortune to drive such a crock of poo... ... and nearly got tee-boned. I pulled up to a mini roundabout, waited for a car to clear, and then went to pull away. Just that instant the stop/start cut in, then restarted and pulled away... giving just enough time for a car to see me 'waiting' and then for me to pull out in front of him.... Without the stop/start I had plenty of time to do the manoeuvre, and I quickly turned it off after that! (and will always do so BEFORE moving anywhere in the future!) |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 11:29
Manual labour - WillDeBeest
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| I did this morning, Humph - I admit I'd rather got out of the habit of using S when not cruising but it did make driving back from Maidenhead in the sunshine a bit more fun. Not often I get a clear road (would have been clearer still without two packs of lycrists, one of which saw me coming and pulled out anyway) and I'd forgotten how lively the LEC can feel when nicely wound up. I think I'll get back into the S habit. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 18:21
Manual labour - Runfer D'Hills
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I have heard the argument before which says that auto boxes are more expensive to fix when or if they fail, but I wonder if ( with the possible exception of DSGs which allegedly seem to have something of a patchy reputation ) that is still the case? Strikes me that manuals, many modern versions of which feature DMF technology are now also fairly costly to fix when and if needed. Not that I've (so far) had a problem with any type of gearbox or clutch to be clear but that then leads to the supplementary question of which type is intrinsically more reliable in the first place I guess. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 18:28
Manual labour - sooty123
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| My experience was from back in the 90s. So not sure on prices now, but I would say the price gap is still there in terms of, completely goosed need a new/recon box. even allowing for more complicated manuals. Unlikely autos have got simpler over that time period. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 18:37
Manual labour - Runfer D'Hills
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I guess you'd have burrow into industry stats to get the definitive info really but the only type of current gearboxes I might be at least a bit wary of buying are DSGs and CVTs. Not through any personal experience of course. Just superstition from reading about other's woes. I'd not lose any sleep over buying a traditional manual or a TC auto. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 18:40
Manual labour - sooty123
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| Nor me neither, I do know someone has been stung with autos. One went bang needed a brand new one, swore never to have another one, ended up getting a dsg 15+ years later that went as well. Back off them for life, again! |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 18:40
Manual labour - Dog
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>>Not that I've (so far) had a problem with any type of gearbox or clutch That's also been my experience, never had to replace a clutch in a car with a manual gearbox, and never had any problem with any of the automatics I've owned over the years, and I'm talking about 40+ automatics ... We wont mention the Riley Kestrel though!! |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 18:44
Manual labour - R.P.
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| Took the Beemer out this afternoon - photoshoot in the car-park above the Menai Straits.... - Whilst the general drive was as good as it always was, I moved off in first expecting a change...still waiting... |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 18:54
Manual labour - Armel Coussine
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>> moved off in first expecting a change...still waiting... Oo-er... you gonna get it fixed or knock three grand off the asking price? Green is said to be an unlucky colour. although I like it... I should go back to calling it grey. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 18:56
Manual labour - R.P.
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| True - it looks bloomin' grey in the photo.... |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 20:32
Manual labour - Bromptonaut
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>> I have recently driven my father's manual Peugeot Partner with the 90bhp engine, which has >> a very unpleasant change. Just curiosity really but how old is the Partner. Having driven both the (facelifted) original and current version of the Berlingo I've found the change to be what I'd expect in a commercial vehicle. Functional but certainly not unpleasant. But no car I ever owned had a 'sporty' short throw change. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 27 Dec 13 at 20:32
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 22:02
Manual labour - Ted
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Wifey hated the thought of an auto but I talked her into trying one and we ended up with a 1.4 Peugeot 206 TC.......She loved it and now won't entertain a manual. The Scenic and now the Note are both TC autos as is my diesel turbo Vitara. One particularly pleasant aspect of an auto is towing a caravan. Plenty of torque in the engine, only 105 BHP but no clutch to slip on the getaway or when starting on hills. I use the 3rd gear button a lot to hold the gear but that's all I have to do. I bought a £50 Datsun 120Y a few years ago off a neighbour. That was a 1200cc TC auto. Both the engine and the box were as sweet as 2 little nuts. My lad ran it until the n/s front strut tried to escape through the bonnet. HO |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 22:03
Manual labour - legacylad
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| gf recently took delivery of her new company car. A VW CC GT, 62plate, with what she tells me is an auto box. She drives 35k pa so should soon get used to it, but tells me that at the moment she prefers a manual, but this is her first ever auto. We are off for the weekend tomorrow so I'm looking forward to having a go in it. I presume it is a DSG, of which I have no experience whatsoever. Nice looking car though in a gunmetal colour. |
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 22:44
Manual labour - Mike H
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Bromptonaut, I know you are a great Berlingo fan, but I'm afraid the sibling Partner does nothing for me - clonky suspension, wobbly on the corners, oversharp brakes. This particular Partner is around 3 years old with 18,000 on the clock. Engine is OK but that's about it. Fine for my dad, but he used to be an HGV driver and is quite happy with it. Wouldn't have one if someone paid me!
Last edited by: Mike H on Fri 27 Dec 13 at 22:44
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New Fri 27 Dec 13 23:30
Manual labour - Bromptonaut
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>> Bromptonaut, I know you are a great Berlingo fan I'm honestly looking for discussion not argument :-) Mine is an 05 1.9D and Mrs B's a 63 115PS 1.6. Neither have the precise gear change of my old Xantia but it's not a problem in either to find a gear or to touch the lever and dispel any doubt about which gear is selected. The current version's 'under the dash' gear lever is more of a reach than mine and is a difference between the cars that was not present swapping Berlingo/Xantia. Just puzzled as to how the change is wrong. Having driven 2 BXs and a Xantia power braking is something I'd miss. Suspension seems just fine. The vehicle's height mean it's never going to have the Xantia's handling but I've never felt it to be unstable even with a roofbox. Mrs B's cousin (an HGV driver whose preferred drive is a Jaguar) had to use his parents' Partner occasionally and thought much same as you!! |
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New Sun 29 Dec 13 09:29
Manual labour - Mike H
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>> I'm honestly looking for discussion not argument :-) >> Agreed :-) >> Just puzzled as to how the change is wrong It's notchy and not pleasant to use! I actually found that it was in a good place, whether it's "under the dash" I can't really say, but it's certainly highish up. As you say, I was never in any doubt which gear I was in, but there was no pleasure in waggling it, whereas the Insignia I mentioned had a smoother er change. Don't get me wrong Bromptonaut, I can see how the Berlingo might suit some people (e.g. my dad), but it's not for me. |
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New Sun 29 Dec 13 11:38
Manual labour - Westpig
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>> Don't get me wrong Bromptonaut, I can see how the Berlingo might suit some people >> (e.g. my dad), but it's not for me. >> I'd be more concerned at the cost of the large paper bags you'd need to buy..to put over your head...;-) |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 00:59
Manual labour - Armel Coussine
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>> a 'sporty' short throw change. HJ said my car has a short-throw gearchange, but although it isn't a vague pudding it doesn't seem short-throw to me. What did, when I drove one many years ago, was the change of the first series of Lotus Elan. Like an old-fashioned light switch. And you could feel the synchromesh whirring through the lever... |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 10:38
Manual labour - movilogo
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>> why so many still buy them Lack of awareness about autos. Most people can't differentiate among various flavours of automatic transmission. They cost more to buy. Some people are paranoid about reduced fuel economy. Some think (mistakenly) pleasure of driving is lost in autos. Most people who are against autos never driven one! I was a manual guy before but after switching to autos I thought I should have done it sooner. Having said so, I still prefer traditional torque converter auto. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 10:45
Manual labour - Mike Hannon
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Hillman Imps had the best manual gearchange I ever knew. Once you were moving you just didn't need the clutch - if you were any sort of a driver. But why bother anyway? The only 'auto' box I've disliked in the past 30 years odd was the Honda I-shift I tried a couple of years ago. Not really auto I know but it really was horrendous. Dropped from the range now... The proper auto with various options and flappy paddles in the diesel Accord that circumstances now conspire for me to drive is the best transmission I have ever had. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 11:06
Manual labour - Runfer D'Hills
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I think you have just about summed it up for me Mike with your "why bother" comment. I'm not really worried in the end what kind of gearbox I'm using but the set up in the Merc for example is so good that given a choice and an otherwise level set of circumstances I'd now always go with that type ( TC, flappy paddles ) in preference. For me anyway, it was a bit like when I got my first estate car. I hadn't really wanted one before but now I know deep down I'd not really be happy with anything less. I like handy things in short. Things which make life easier are always good in my book ! |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 15:50
Manual labour - Fenlander
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| The only thing I don't understand is that for me changing gear is as automatic and stress free as looking where I'm going.... and I've never driven an auto that felt totally right in its decisions. However I now only drive for pleasure in my own time and avoid traffic as I hate sitting still... so perhaps would feel different in the Runfer circumstance. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 16:46
Manual labour - BobbyG
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When I was in USA in the summer I hired a Hyundai Tucsan (ix35) which was petrol and automatic. It had the foot operated parking brake and I though the auto, combined with the brake, made it a very easy car to drive. Now obviously American roads are different to ours and most of my driving was long haul but I also had some urban running about and I really took to auto to the extent that I seriously thought about it for my next car. However, the auto ix35 available in Europe still has a conventional handbrake and by all accounts, the fuel economy is horrendous. Not to mention the fact that auto gearbox adds upwards of a grand to the price of a comparable car, not really sure why that should be? I have also noticed some manufacturers now have autos which they claim are more efficient than their manual counterparts - the Peugeot 3008 e-hdi is one of them. It actually makes sense that autos should be more efficient although I suppose they can only read engine info at the time - the gearbox can't look ahead and see the hill coming, the slowing traffic etc. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 17:03
Manual labour - Baz
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I've only driven conventional autos so no experience of DSG etc. How do they cope with enthusiastic driving on a twisty road, where you really want to be in the right gear every time? Can you do that in a DSG? Or is there a lag time that spoils things? For me that's the joy of a manual box. Although in traffic, I can see the advantage of an auto and could be tempted one day. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 17:22
Manual labour - Runfer D'Hills
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>>How do they cope with enthusiastic driving on a twisty road, where you really want to be in the right gear every time? Flappy paddles, rev counter and or gut. Still huge fun and on modern autos gear changes are pretty instant when using manual controls. You can briefly persuade yourself that you are Lewis Hamilton... ;-) |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 17:41
Manual labour - Clk Sec
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Someone has a use for a rev counter...
Last edited by: Clk Sec on Sat 28 Dec 13 at 17:42
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 18:00
Manual labour - Skip
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>> >> I have also noticed some manufacturers now have autos which they claim are more efficient >> than their manual counterparts - the Peugeot 3008 e-hdi is one of them. It actually >> makes sense that autos should be more efficient although I suppose they can only read >> engine info at the time - the gearbox can't look ahead and see the hill >> coming, the slowing traffic etc. >> Whether they are actually better than the manual for fuel in real life I wouldn't like to say, but certainly the Peugeot one you mention above in a EGS automated manual and is a hateful thing to drive (as they all are IMHO). You have to anticipate every gear change and lift off the gas slightly to get any chance of a smooth change and low speed manoeuvring is a nightmare as they do not creep and lurch if you try and apply gentle pressure to the throttle. GB used to hate loading/unloading these EGS/DSG things in his transporter driving days for this reason. |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 18:47
Manual labour - Runfer D'Hills
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Rightho then - At 18.44 on 28/12 this thread is standing at 897 views. Due to severe Christmas incarceration fever I'm posting this which is about nothing at all to see if it'll go to over a thousand views before I get back from my swim tonight. Quite bored now. ;-)) |
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 20:39
Manual labour - NortonES2
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Have driven a number of autos, (TC and CVT) but the standout from smoothness and speed aspects was the DSG in a Skoda Rapid I had for a day recently. 1.4 TSI 7 speed. Changes only noticeable by the rev counter, in Auto, even at full throttle, with pedal to the floor. Manual selection, fwd for higher, rearward for low, was virtually instantaneous. No flappy paddle facility on the one I had. Only oddity was waiting in traffic when the vehicle had to be held back on the brakes - more marked than TC drag. Would love one if the apparent poor reliability was fixed. Best of both worlds.
Last edited by: NIL on Sat 28 Dec 13 at 20:41
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New Sat 28 Dec 13 21:07
Manual labour - Runfer D'Hills
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Wey Hey !! Sorry, as you were chaps... ;-) |
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New Sun 29 Dec 13 11:19
Manual labour - mikeyb
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Always thought that an Auto would make life a little easier, but the penalties over manual were never enough to swing it, until we bought Mrs B's Viano. Its the Avantgarde spec which only came with Auto so there was no choice. She loves it and I suspect would take some persuading to return to manual, and to be honest, given its size, the Auto frees you up with one less thing to think about so you can concentrate on driving it. I'm still in a manual, but I suspect that my next may be an Auto |
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New Sun 29 Dec 13 11:32
Manual labour - Runfer D'Hills
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Oh I'd go back to a manual if the car/deal or whatever was compelling but I strongly suspect that my next few cars ( whoever is paying ) will be diesel, automatic, large or large-ish estates of whatever make I, or indeed someone else chooses to afford. That combination just works best for me both for business and pleasure. |
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New Sun 29 Dec 13 13:46
Manual labour - Boxsterboy
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>> GB used >> to hate loading/unloading these EGS/DSG things in his transporter driving days for this reason. >> There is a world of difference between single clutch automated manuals (such as EGS) and twin clutch automated manuals (such as DSG), so please don't think they are the same. EGS boxes are (in my experience) indeed hateful. I drive a DSG gearbox and love it. |
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New Sun 29 Dec 13 14:25
Manual labour - Skip
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>> >> GB used >> >> to hate loading/unloading these EGS/DSG things in his transporter driving days for this reason. >> >> >> >> There is a world of difference between single clutch automated manuals (such as EGS) and >> twin clutch automated manuals (such as DSG), so please don't think they are the same. >> EGS boxes are (in my experience) indeed hateful. I drive a DSG gearbox and love >> it. >> I am aware of the difference between them and have driven both. The DSG equipped Octavia and golf I drove both had judder moving off from rest and were a world away from being as good as a proper TC auto though I accept that they are better than the EGS. |
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New Sun 29 Dec 13 14:33
Manual labour - madf
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A well designed CVT plus TC as in Jazz is great. Nice smooth changes, no hesitation and better fuel consumption.. Road testers are rude abut them as they are idiots, |
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