Last night for a giggle, I was looking around auto trader and found that I could buy a second hand 6 month old Nissan leaf for £11k.
Not bad for a 28k car brand new.
It does make me wonder why they are so cheap.
Motoring fad ?
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>> At least you won't have to queue for a charging point, assuming there is one
>> where you need it. Most installed at a cost of £8odd million have not been
>> used.
>>
>> www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2086926/Flat-battery-Government-reveals-charging-points-electric-cars-UK-sales-slump.html
>>
>> www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2523718/Drivers-arent-switching-Publicly-funded-electric-car-charging-points-barely-used.html
>>
Must admit I didn't realise there were a whole range of charging currents / sockets out there that aren't all compatible with all electric cars, just to add complexity to the range anxiety challenge:-
www.nextgreencar.com/electric-cars/charging-points.php#
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You can get a brand new one from £11995. This is with a 36 month battery lease on top though. Seems you can pay more for a non battery lease.
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There's a plug-in point in the car park behind Esher Waitrose. It always has a 'proper' car parked in it, indeed there is nothing to indicate that 'proper' cara can't park there, which would be annoying if you were one of the very few electric car drivers relying on a charge to get you home.
Pure electric cars will only ever be for the minority or second cars for the rich. Range extenders (Vauxhall Ampera, some BMW i3s) is the only way electric will work for the masses.
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Claimed range 80 miles +
Actual range 60 miles.
Annual depreciation £10k
Taxi cheaper and no parking costs.
Simples.
Last edited by: madf on Sun 12 Jan 14 at 15:23
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I live a few yards from a charging point so an electric car would suit me, especially as I do low range sort of distances. At the moment though they are still too expensive but if prices were to co down to petrol engined levels I might consider what when I finally get rid of my Panda.
Apart from expensive battery replacements they really does seem a lot less to go wrong on an electric car.
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>> I live a few yards from a charging point so an electric car would suit
>> me, especially as I do low range sort of distances. At the moment though they
>> are still too expensive but if prices were to co down to petrol engined levels
>> I might consider what when I finally get rid of my Panda.
>>
>> Apart from expensive battery replacements they really does seem a lot less to go wrong
>> on an electric car.
>>
Except the battery. How many petrol cars need a new engine every year or so?
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How many petrol cars need a new engine every year or so?
Nissans have Renault mechanicals now, don't forget.
};---)
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>> How many petrol cars need a new engine every year or so?
>>
>> Nissans have Renault mechanicals now, don't forget.
>> };---)
>>
As do some Mercs....
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>> There's a plug-in point in the car park behind Esher Waitrose. It always has a
>> 'proper' car parked in it, indeed there is nothing to indicate that 'proper' cara can't
>> park there, which would be annoying if you were one of the very few electric
>> car drivers relying on a charge to get you home.
>>
£60 fine for parking a real car at a charging point in our local rail station, Council owned car park. I have never seen either of the two charging points used.
Last edited by: Uncle Albert on Sun 12 Jan 14 at 15:47
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There's a cafe on the A5 bang in the middle of nowhere/Snowdonia - they have a charging point....you urban lot must try to keep up.
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We have a smattering of charging points, I have not seen any of them in use, Have you seen the middle of nowhere one in use?
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There seems to be more charging points than places selling LPG/CNG. Is gas dying out?
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>> There's a plug-in point in the car park behind Esher Waitrose.
>> It always has a 'proper' car parked in it, indeed there is nothing to indicate that 'proper' cara can't park there, which would be annoying if you were one of the very few electric car drivers relying on a charge to get you home.
>>
There are two plug-in points in the Surbiton Waitrose car park with lots of pretty blue LEDs on them.
I have only seen proper cars parked there. Maybe it is because the bays are next to the exit for the store.
In the last week extra notices have appeared re "Electric vehicles only". The notice seems to have had no effect on parking:-)
Perhaps folks are like me and have never seen cable in use in the previous many months since the points appeared.
The only silly little electric car I have seen in my region is Bamber Gascoigne's who lives overlooking the tow path by Richmond Bridge.
There may be a few real electric cars but they are more difficult to spot.
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The Owner Reviews on Autotrader are very mixed
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>> The Owner Reviews on Autotrader are very mixed
>>
Some of them are shocking :-)
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There's a parking garage in Poland St in London I find it convenient to use sometimes. That has some bays with charging points. Usually in use actually. Mind you, I guess I'd plug in my car if I could just to feel better about the 35 quid a day parking fee even if it didn't need it.
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>> parking garage in Poland St in London I find it convenient to use sometimes.
Stop it Humph, you're making me feel sentimental. I doubt if there's a central London parking garage I haven't used half a dozen times at least... There's a gigantic cavernous one under Hyde Park, off the northbound carriageway of Park Lane... never seen it even a quarter filled... sob...
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The one under Cavendish Sq has been done up recently. Excellent bogs if required, although it's only a step or two from John Lewis who also maintain their lavatories remarkably well.
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>> The one under Cavendish Sq has been done up recently. Excellent bogs if required
Is that the double concrete spiral jobby? I've been there within the last year.
They're all a bit sinister, aren't they? Dark stains in the corners, the odd bundle of rags, or are they rags... hardly surprising they are so popular with the directors of schlock thrillers and horror movies, terrified chick hearing those funny echoes, was that a footstep? Did that shadow move? Heh heh...
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Yep, that's the one. Some very serious bits of automotive kit lurking in some of them. Cavendish Sq is next to Harley St of course. I imagine there are some of its day time inhabitants cars in there. What's 40 quid a day when you can charge more than that for a ten minute consultation eh?
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>> very serious bits of automotive kit lurking in some of them.
There's one down in the corner of Eaton Square I think where, in addition to the Ferraris under their tailored covers and one or two dusty neglected ones with flat tyres, abandoned in a hurry perhaps by successful chancers doing runners, I once saw a 1940s Plymouth coupé with long-travel heavy-duty suspension, big bumpers and competition numbers on the side, looked like something prepared for the Pan-American road race on which Fangio cut his teeth.
Yeah, you do see the odd posh motor in that London.
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I'm a bit sad that those who said they would like to see the piece on driverless cars I produced for the (very) left-wing New Left Review last year haven't seen it. I did send an enclosure to the mods to make available, and I wanted to run the piece past N_C too if only to be scolded for luddism and technophobia, I always enjoy that. But as far as I know nothing came of it. Anyone deemed respectable here who still wants to see it can get my email from the mods if they check with me first.
That piece covers all the categories of green car including electric ones, which it doesn't think much of.
I did say at the time that there would be nothing in it that was really new to a car person. Nevertheless it has been praised by people of judgment.
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I'd be interested in reading that AC if the mods can do the stuff with email addys.
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My son had one on a monitored study and trial, and I had a drive. They are fantastic little vehicles, really fin to drive and very very quick.
But we had the range down to 50 miles in a heartbeat. Completely impractical in the real world.
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Agree.
I had 48 hours in a Vauxhall Ampera, which was fine. Very smooth and relaxing. But most importantly, no range anxiety.
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Hybrids are the thing at the moment, short of snorting monster territory (although alas more expensive to buy). All major manufacturers offer one or more hybrid models. No one can argue with a recent BMW product's claimed 40+mpg with 0-60 in 7s or so and 146 flat out, even if they can't be achieved simultaneously. More in the real world, Prius is a brilliant world-conquering product.
The main reason why electric cars, and some hybrids, seem to have such scalded-cat performance is the electric motor's maximum torque delivery from zero or very low rpm. A petrol engine has to be spinning to produce much torque.
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>> My son had one on a monitored study and trial, and I had a drive.
>> They are fantastic little vehicles, really fin to drive and very very quick.
>>
>> But we had the range down to 50 miles in a heartbeat. Completely impractical in
>> the real world.
If I only used it as a station hack to Northampton 50 miles would have been a week's travel. More if I'd not hammered it. If I used Milton Keynes station I'd only need to charge it overnight every night, again less if I'd not thrashed it. .
50 miles out/back would do nearly all Mrs B's supply teaching assignments. If she could charge it at the schools she could cover a radius extending to Oxford, Coventry, Cambridge and Luton, far more than she does in practice .
How many second, never mind first, cars is that true of.
How many units to recharge the battery from near dead to full charge?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 12 Jan 14 at 20:45
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Ok I get that Bromp, but what happens on the days a longer journey is required and the 'normal' car isn't available or is being used by someone else or the longer journey is an unforeseen emergency or just a last minute thing or... Well, you see what I mean ?
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>> Ok I get that Bromp, but what happens on the days a longer journey is
>> required and the 'normal' car isn't available or is being used by someone else or
>> the longer journey is an unforeseen emergency or just a last minute thing or... Well,
>> you see what I mean ?
I see exactly what you mean. Since 2000 we've had successively Xantia Estate + BX Estate, Berlingo + Xantia Estate and latterly Berlingo x2 (05+63). Even before that we had BX Estate and 205 where latter could take all four of us to Leicester or Leeds albeit with limited luggage.
As late as 2010 the Xantia went to the Hebrides 'cos it was easier to get bikes on it than the 'lingo. Just yesterday the older (05) Berlingo went to Liverpool and back 'cos it's insured for The Lad to drive, it was his trip back to Uni and Mrs B was in Brum at a Science Education drinkup conference.
OTOH if we had an electric car for local use she could have gone to Brum on train, leaving it charging at station.
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Is it possible for the local scroat or saddo to unplug an unattended electric car from a charging point?
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>> Is it possible for the local scroat or saddo to unplug an unattended electric car
>> from a charging point?
>>
Easily with an axe or bolt cutter.
As charging takes 4+hours...
Last edited by: madf on Sun 12 Jan 14 at 21:44
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So you need rubber gloves then. :-)
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I've just invented something. Petrol stations could stock ready charged battery packs and you just stop, unclip your empty one and trade it in for a fee against a full one.
I'm going to be rich now, so may be too busy being in Hawaii or somewhere to post much but you are allowed to say you once knew me when I'm on the telly and stuff.
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>> I'm going to be rich now,
All you have to do is convince all the manufacturers to standardise their batteries and connectors. Good luck with that one. :-)
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Another minor details. The 'batteries' consist of many cells which can be (i.e. are) replaced individually.
Looking at the Priuus plugin as a lease car via company the other day. Although it's a £33k car the lease price is currently low. BIK rate is 5% so the car is very cheap as a company car. I wonder if in three years there will be lots of Prius plugins being sold at auction?
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>> >> I'm going to be rich now,
>>
>> All you have to do is convince all the manufacturers to standardise their batteries and
>> connectors. Good luck with that one. :-)
>>
...and finance the huge cost of buying some batteries at ££££s each.
... and work out where and how you're going to securely store and then swap out these big, heavy, expensive things
..and hope you don't get any Dreamliner style Lithium battery meltdowns
..and work out how you're going to convince folk the battery you're swapping into their car isn't already 90% knackered
Battery technology has been plodding along for 100+ years now, electric cars won't go mainstream until somebody invents a commercially viable energy storage technology two orders of magnitude more efficient than those ..ahem.. currently available.
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Granted, I may have to employ a clever person to work out the mundanities of it all.
Still can't quite decide whether to buy a Caribbean island or a Hawaiian one. What do you think?
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Neither, they are both vulnerable to American tourists, you might just as well take up residence on a Caribbean based cruise ship. :-)
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>> I've just invented something. Petrol stations could stock ready charged battery packs and you just
>> stop, unclip your empty one and trade it in for a fee against a full
>> one.
>>
>> I'm going to be rich now, so may be too busy being in Hawaii or
>> somewhere to post much but you are allowed to say you once knew me when
>> I'm on the telly and stuff.
>>
'fraud Hawaii will have to go on hold. Renault's model for their 'leccy cars in France is (or was?) just that - swap your flat battery for fresh ones.
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Alas, wed not have three spare battery packs for each car not he road (you'll need them) and we don't have massive petrol stations to store all the dead, recharging, and recharged battery packs.
The only island you are headed is the Isle of wight.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 12 Jan 14 at 22:32
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>> I've just invented something. Petrol stations could stock ready charged battery packs and you just stop, unclip your empty one and trade it in for a fee against a full one.
Already thought of.
as others have said, wont work unless batteries become standardised.
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Going to need a lot of car owners to turn over a new LEAF before any benefits begin to emerge...:-)
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Why would anyone wish to own an electric car?
Last edited by: Roger on Mon 13 Jan 14 at 08:33
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some people must have if the sales figures are to be believed
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I would seriously love an electric car. All my mileage is in the single units every day: school - bread shop - home.
An electric car for the week and a V8 luxobarge for the weekend or longer journeys.
It's just the prices that are way out for me. It's not exactly cheap motoring is it?
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>> An electric car for the week and a V8 luxobarge for the weekend or longer journeys.
I'm with ^^this^^ Bad geezer ... had an iOn for Arthur day and luved it/could live wivvit.
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I was even wondering about the hybrids Dog, particularly the LS600. If you could get 5 miles out of one on battery power-only, I could do the - School - Bread shop - Home - all week and fire up the V8 at weekend. Assuming you could charge them up in the garage.
That's all my needs in one package. It's even 4WD. Since it snows 3 months a year here, it's perfectamungo.
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>>was even wondering about the hybrids Dog, particularly the LS600
5.0 V8 :-)
CVT :-(
Best stick with the Coca Nissan Leaf.
:}
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Here's a nice one 4U2C: tinyurl.com/nkykngd
Last edited by: Dog on Mon 13 Jan 14 at 11:45
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It'll take a while till they're the right side of ten grand... and then the batteries will be duds.
Time to turn over a new Leaf innit?
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Leaf the jokes to someone else!
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>> I was even wondering about the hybrids Dog, particularly the LS600. If you could get
>> 5 miles out of one on battery power
Alas, that's sky pie. A mile tops on that vehicle.
But a very pleasant place to be indeed, if you can afford the running costs.
The only Toyota hybrid at the minute that will give you anything like that range is the Prius plugin, with about 12 to 15 miles electric only real world, after which it flips to petrol of course. But those are still hovering about 20k to buy.
Would suit my commute nicely, and of course no range anxiety. But even at 130mpg the payback time is more or less never.
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Hybrids are increasingly popular down under (where people seem less inclined to compromise on BHP). The Toyota Camry Hybrid with LPG and therefore a compromised boot is fast taking over from LPG 4.0L 6Cyl Falcons as the Taxi of choice. These cars do stellar mileages so I assume that Toyota's hybrid technology is robust and reliable ? The car (in petrol hybrid form) has 151Kw (202Bhp) and does a claimed average of 5.2l/100Km (54mpg) which looks pretty reasonable to me, it's supposedly a reasonably good 'drive' too.
I wonder whether the hybrid technology is easier to engineer for reliability than turbos, superchargers and DSGs - fewer moving parts perhaps ?
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Cynically, it does occur that anyone who believes they could genuinely get away with an electric car might also be in a position to walk or cycle more than they do. Unless of course they are infirm in some way.
I rarely use my car for short journeys when I prefer to use my feet or my bike.
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"Cynically, it does occur that anyone who believes they could genuinely get away with an electric car might also be in a position to walk or cycle more than they do."
The problem is it that 'walking' eats away my 'forum chatting' time...
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It does make you think though when you read about all these obesity issues and fancy counteractive diet plans that many would benefit from the 'Put less in gob and walk more' diet...
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>> Cynically, it does occur that anyone who believes they could genuinely get away with an
>> electric car might also be in a position to walk or cycle more than they
>> do. Unless of course they are infirm in some way.
>>
>> I rarely use my car for short journeys when I prefer to use my feet
>> or my bike.
>>
We could definitely manage with one of our cars being electric - my daily mileage seldom exceeds 30 mile. My partner does even less - maybe 30 miles a week? The question is, which car would I swap...
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>> Why would anyone wish to own an electric car?
>>
"You can fool some people all of the time"..
PS
Did you realise that charging connectors differ across electric cars and are not interchangeable?
Last edited by: madf on Mon 13 Jan 14 at 09:34
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There is a reader letter in this weeks Auto Express putting forward the idea that battery powered electric cars are a stopgap and a testbed for the fuel cell cars which will follow. I think they are also a political sop to the green lobby.
Last edited by: Uncle Albert on Wed 15 Jan 14 at 16:00
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>> I'm a bit sad that those who said they would like to see the piece
>> on driverless cars I produced for the (very) left-wing New Left Review
I'd no recollection of hearing of the New Left Review until I read Lud's post above.
Today I started re-reading Tony Crosland's seminal 'The Future of Socialism' as a kindle download. Last read as a library loan aeons ago.
Get no further than Dick Leonard's introduction where there's a reference to the NLR.
How weird is that???
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>> How weird is that???
Is it weird at all? NLR isn't exactly big circulation, but it is taken seriously in all sorts of places, certainly in the upper reaches so to speak of the European left. But governments worldwide used to be subscribers. Dunno if they still are, but it wouldn't surprise me.
The stuff it runs isn't always everyone's cup of tea, but it tries energetically to keep up with what's new and is often startlingly leftist. But it doesn't mind a bit of controversy or irresponsibility. When Fela Kuti died it asked me for a piece on him because it knew I had known him. Not its usual fare at all.
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Nissan LEAF - amazingly cheap second hand - Old Navy
