www.motoring.co.uk/car-news/private-cars-cannot-be-sold-with-road-tax-from-october-2014_60347
A bit of a pain, but I suppose it will help with uninsured drivers?
Last edited by: ToMoCo on Thu 16 Jan 14 at 23:47
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That's going to be a nightmare for private sellers.
I always sell my cars with a bit of RFL (tax, sic) to ensure they can road test it. What am I supposed to do now?
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>> What am I supposed to do now?
Send off the tax refund application with the logbook once you've sold it.
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the point is, how do you know the owner hasn't already SORNED it.
It is a nightmare for used car buyers. it could of course be resolved by making the details of tax status available publicly on-line. Also they will have to make taxing a vehicle you don't yet own much easier.
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And they need to start calculating VED costs/refunds by the day or a car sold mid-month will end up dual taxed by seller and buyer... if I'm reading it correctly.
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>> it could of course be resolved by
>> making the details of tax status available publicly on-line.
Hang on - you mean they're NOT doing that? I assumed that was a given, and whilst it could be a pain, you were going to be able to just hop to a web page on your phone or whatever and see the status?
I was reserving my grumpiness for the assumption that everyone had internet access at all times, but it looks as if that is misplaced - it's more broken than I thought.
The only safe assumption is always going to be that the prospective vehicle is untaxed and not legally drivable, if you can't get the info for yourself.
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Vehicle's status is already checkable on line.
www.taxdisc.direct.gov.uk/EvlPortalApp/app/enquiry?execution=e1s4
It shows my old car as not taxed (it went to a breaker) and my current one as 'tax not due'.
They just need to modify the status line to add a bit more clarity and show the expiry date.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 17 Jan 14 at 09:14
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Ah, good show. Isn't "date of liability" the expiry date?
I can now flip my grumpiness back to the assumption that the internet is available to everyone all the time anywhere. When I retire I plan on getting rid and just using the local library on the odd occasion. The odd occasion list seems to be getting longer, but not yet long enough to justify keeping broadband.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Fri 17 Jan 14 at 09:21
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"The odd occasion list seems to be getting longer, but not yet long enough to justify keeping broadband."
I think it would be extremely difficult to live without access to the internet and I can't personally conceive why anybody would want to. It's such a ubiquitous par of our life now. The world of paper based transactions, records and information is essentially dead and like it or not access to the internet is rapidly becoming as essential as electricity.
I suppose there were people who couldn't see the point of electricity and preferred candles though
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>> I think it would be extremely difficult to live without access to the internet
Living without internet now is like living without electricity :-)
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I'm not being difficult, I just genuinely struggle to think what you folk are doing on the net that makes it so vital? Looking back over the last few weeks I don't think I've done anything on it at home I would have missed.
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>> I'm not being difficult, I just genuinely struggle to think what you folk are
>> doing on the net that makes it so vital? Looking back over the last few
>> weeks I don't think I've done anything on it at home I would have missed.
Just in last 48hrs:
Shopping, reading the news in various places, generally looking stuff up for DIY, cooking, car/bike fettling etc. Not just at my desk but even in bed using my Hudl tablet.
Ordered stuff via Amazon for delivery direct to my Mum who can no longer get out as much as she'd like.
Email and social networking, including this site.
Corresponding with my former employers with whom I've having an argument about my pension entitlement. Not only are the scheme guides for employees on line but the employers/administrators manuals as well. It'd be either a wait for them to be posted or a trip to London and a lot of copying otherwise. Corresponding by email much more efficient than waiting for the postie or missing the last collection.
My daughter was unwell on Tuesday so come home from Uni for a few days. She can access journals for exam revision and even submit work while 100 miles from campus. I said I'd pay for her ticket and transferred money instantly by internet banking.
When my router died last year I was in PC World buying a new one an hour later. Cannot imagine how I'd go without.
I cannot imagine being without it.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 17 Jan 14 at 10:52
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"I just genuinely struggle to think what you folk are doing on the net that makes it so vital? "
Well, apart from looking at this site:
This week I have or will:
Checked by bank account
Reviewed my investments
Entered the meter readings for gas/electricity
Got some quotes through a comparison site - insurance renews end of month
Skyped my daughter in Canada,
Booked some parking and Hotel at Gatwick for trip to Canaries next month
Listened to some internet radio
Bought a book on Kindle
Ordered a guide book online from my local library
Watched a streamed film from Love films
Sent a number of emails
Downloaded automatically a number of podcasts
Watched several programs on iplayer
Looked up numerous bits of information from recipes to phone number
Continued to hunt for new house on "Right Move."
Booked a photography course.
I suppose I could have done some of that without the internet but it would have been difficult
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>> The only safe assumption is always going to be that the prospective vehicle is untaxed
The way I read it, it won't be an assumption you need to make, it will be a given.
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>>>internet...... When I retire I plan on getting rid... The odd occasion list seems to be getting longer, but not yet long enough to justify keeping broadband.
Broadband is a small cost in the scheme of life and the net can be a huge resource in retirement.
I'm not interested in the social media side where folks project an enhanced version of their lives seconds after the event to the detriment of the event itself.
But for doing almost anything else the net hands the private person a power of knowledge and financial advantage that was unthinkable 20yrs ago.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 17 Jan 14 at 09:33
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Good in theory, and I'm sure you're right. But I look at what I use it for now, which is very limited at home, look at the monthly cost, and think"nah, not worth it".
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Ahh well if you are currently getting your internet kicks from the net at work then your home use will rise once you are retired and there full time.
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Bah - not retiring and then hopping on here!
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C4P is but the tip of the iceberg....
My retirement part time business is 80%+ internet. All our banking/investment is online which gives us access and control 24/7. On the desk in front of me are my two current cameras... new about £700 the pair but bought online as-new for £240 the pair. Those alone have paid for about 2yrs broadband.
On the wall is a newly bought antique clock with a shop value of ££350+. Found online for £45... a replacement part it needed was £18 online (something a repairer had quoted £120 to supply/fit).
Online our multifuel stove was £250 cheaper than the local specialists wanted.
Last year we had a real tussle with our insurance co but online info we could link them to was able to support our case and enable the refund of an unfairly taken excess.... several hundred pounds.
The year before we had a very nasty issue arrive out of the blue concerning property owned... something that could have thrown into doubt all our retirement plans. The net provided research answers that gave us knowledge over and above that of solicitors/MPs/Bishops (!!) involved in the matter such that we were able to negotiate our way to the conclusion we sought... something that would have been much slower and cost thousands if using our own solicitor.
I could go on and on but the truth is the internet is one of the most powerful tools handed to the private person since the wheel.
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My life would be liveable, but considerably poorer without the internet. It offers so many advantages that if it were a choice between having broadband or a TV the TV would go.
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>> My life would be liveable, but considerably poorer without the internet. It offers so many
>> advantages that if it were a choice between having broadband or a TV the TV
>> would go.
specially as you can watch tv on your broadband
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>>
>> I could go on and on but the truth is the internet is one of
>> the most powerful tools handed to the private person since the wheel.
>>
And for some users of (4) wheels, it is a device that should be used with skill and repays investment in learning how to use it wisely, whilst for other users, its a white good that doesn't get a second thought
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>> The year before we had a very nasty issue arrive out of the blue concerning
>> property owned... something that could have thrown into doubt all our retirement plans. The net
>> provided research answers that gave us knowledge over and above that of solicitors/MPs/Bishops (!!) involved
>> in the matter such that we were able to negotiate our way to the conclusion
>> we sought... something that would have been much slower and cost thousands if using our
>> own solicitor.
I assume you found out you had a lein or church levy on the house. You can get insurance against that.
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Yes Chancel Liability... it's a massive subject that I've spent hundreds of hours investigating. The insurance (which we have at our house here because our solicitor "made " us take it out before we knew what we know now) is not always the answer and that aspect has changed a little.
There was a deadline of 13th Oct 2013 for the church to register liability or lose the benefit for all time and this caused a rush for registration in parishes around the country prompted by orders from senior church figures. Many people who were previously unaware they had a liability now have it registered against their property and for them insurance is a different matter. It can rise from the £50 policy we have against the possibility of finding you have the liability to a £1500 policy (or refusal to cover) once the liability is already established.
It is also unclear just how effective the payout is on these pllicies as there hasn't so far been a claim on one. Also as chancel liability is without limit in regards to time, frequency or maximum sum it is not established if these policies would remain in force for all time.
There is only one way to be absolutely clear of the liability for all time and that was to sell the property to a new owner after 13th October 2013. The reason for the date being there is a sting in the legislation surrounding this watershed in that the liability only ceased after 13th Oct 2013 for the new and subsequent purchasers registered after that at the LR.
This means that property held long term in families remains at risk until they sell.
Very complex subject that the church, MPs and many solicitors do not fully understand.... and the Queen didn't want to get involved but I guess she is a little biased!
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>> Yes Chancel Liability... it's a massive subject that I've spent hundreds of hours investigating. The
Friend of mine found out about it when moving home. The clue was the new address. Church Lane!
Solicitor was on the ball before purchase.
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Did they end up with it registered against them?
I guess you could say our solicitor was on teh ball. She insisted on a chancel laibility check by a third party who do such things... and sell the insurance. The check came back you might be liable so we bought the insurance on her advice.
Turns out that by nature of its construction date and circumstances there is no chancel liability attached to our church for any property in teh village or elsewhere. So the insurance premium was a waste.. but £50 or so kept the solicitor from hassling us and was nothing in the costs of moving.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 17 Jan 14 at 15:17
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>> Did they end up with it registered against them?
It got a bit messy. "its not impossible" was the answer so insurance was taken out, but during the sale process the local "Baron" (well the trust that now act as the local feudal lord on behalf of her ladyship) started waving some papers about claiming they predated the church claim under dissolution of the monasteries, and powers granted by Liz 1, because the church was going to try and register the chancel lien onto trust property.
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>>>It got a bit messy
Yes we had a bit (well quite a lot actually) of that.
To try and pin down the specifics in our circumstance required the understanding of a complex 1771 document held in the local records office. This document amounted to 30,000+ words of manuscript in an old form of English which had never been transcribed before.
A layperson volunteer on the parish council was entrusted with extracting the required information from this document which was the basis for them registering liability against a large amount of properties. It was never shown how this person managed to do in an afternoon ot two a transcription teh records said would take specialists in old documents quite some weeks.
Anyway we managed to pass on ownership of the property involved to save our daughters inheriting a potential liability in the future.
It was our first involvement with the law and government process at such a level. Interesting that our local MP took the issue on board and made sure he understood the detail. The minister involved though (Helen Grant - Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Ministry of Justice) either didn't understand the complex subject or couldn't be bothered to take it seriously when it was debated in Westminster Hall. Odd given she is a solicitor.
She didn't look kindly either on the letter we sent her pointing out her failings of understanding & knowledge in the areas she addressed in that debate.
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>>
>>The minister involved though (Helen Grant - Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Ministry of Justice) either
>> didn't understand the complex subject or couldn't be bothered to take it seriously when it
>> was debated in Westminster Hall. Odd given she is a solicitor.
>>
>> She didn't look kindly either on the letter we sent her pointing out her failings
>> of understanding & knowledge in the areas she addressed in that debate.
To be fair her practice was in Family Law not land. Grasp of her brief however was not Mrs G's strong point. Her appearance before the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee last year made one wince.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 17 Jan 14 at 16:13
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Gazette reports that Helen Grant's firm is on of around 140 to be shut down by Solicitors Regulatory Authority as they could not secure professional indemnity insurance.
www.lawgazette.co.uk/practice/high-street-cull-as-136-firms-disappear/5039454.article
One wonders if powers that be saw this coming and it accounts for her move to a Sport portfolio after barely 12 months at Justice.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 20 Jan 14 at 20:07
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>> The only safe assumption is always going to be that the prospective vehicle is untaxed
>> and not legally drivable, if you can't get the info for yourself.
>>
Further to that... The only legal way for the new owner to get the vehicle home, will be on the back of a transporter.
1/ you can't sell a car with tav on it.
2/ an untaxed vehicle must be SORNed.
3/ you can't have a SORNed vehicle on the road.
4/ to tax a vehicle you must be the registered keeper
5/ it takes a week or more to get the V5 back...
The only way I can see round it, is to find an open post office, that does tax, and get them to tax , and send off the V5. IF thats still possible, I have done just that in the past...
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>> That's going to be a nightmare for private sellers.
>>
I suspect that what the authorities really want with this, and the continuous insurance stuff, is to stop private sales of cars and only have cars bought and sold through dealers.
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>> >> That's going to be a nightmare for private sellers.
>> >>
>> I suspect that what the authorities really want with this, and the continuous insurance stuff,
>> is to stop private sales of cars and only have cars bought and sold through
>> dealers.
I think its highly unlikely that there is any form of conspiracy to achieve that, I don't suppose its even occurred to them to try, and why would they. Its is simply a matter of unthought through unintended consequences.
If they wanted to stop private sales they would tax them.
Oh bugger - why did I suggest that
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 17 Jan 14 at 17:45
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I think its highly unlikely that there is any form of conspiracy to achieve that, I don't suppose its even occurred to them to try, and why would they. Its is simply a matter of unthought through unintended consequences.
I agree, the whole thing smacks of 'an idea' with precious little thinking through. Perhaps come October, a sensible workable process will appear.
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>>Good in theory, and I'm sure you're right. But I look at what I use [the internet] for now,
>>which is very limited at home, look at the monthly cost, and think"nah, not worth it".
Unless you go to:
www.topcashback.co.uk/ref/the_red_file
and then select:
Primus saver
And they'll give you £15 cashback, so the cost for *internet* AND telephone line rental with free evening and weekend calls is a cool £9.88 per month if you pay the annual line rental up front.
Bargain or what. I'm on it and have been for over a year. The customer service is just about OK. The internet can be a bit slow at peak times. But given I'm being paid to have broadband - compared with any other telephone supplier - I can live with that. I don't use it much, but it's nice to have it.
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Let me get this right, road tax runs in complete calendar months? You cannot start tax part way through a month - you can only buy a disc that runs from the first of the month, so if buying an untaxed car on say the 15th you have to pay for the whole month and get a disc that runs from the 1st?
Correspondingly, when you surrender a disc, you don't get any credit for unused days, your refund is only in complete months from the 1st of the next month ?
So if I sell a car on the 15th, I can drive it to show the prospective buyer, I can let him test drive it, then we shake hands on the deal, and I whip the tax disc off. He can't now drive it because it won't be displaying a tax disc, but it will still be taxed until I post the disc and the DVLA receive it? And even when they do receive it, won't it be cancelled as from the end of the month, because a disc can only run for whole months?
So even if the new owner does drive the car home, his only offence will be failure to display?
How would he tax it anyway, if the car is already taxed in my name, and will remain so until the DVLA process my notification and refund?
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>> He can't now drive it because it won't be displaying a tax disc, but it will still be taxed until I post the disc and the DVLA receive it?
There won't be a tax disc. It will be electronic. So it will be your responsibility to tell DVLA straightaway, e.g. online or by phone I presume.
None of us know all the details - perhaps the rule about whole months will also be removed.
I would imagine if you sell a car now you might want to keep the tax disc to get a refund. So it must currently be possible for the buyer to tax the car even though there is technically a valid tax disc.
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>>
>> There won't be a tax disc. It will be electronic. So it will be your
>> responsibility to tell DVLA straightaway, e.g. online or by phone I presume.
>>
>> None of us know all the details - perhaps the rule about whole months will
>> also be removed.
>>
Good point. Then for this to work it will surely have to be virtually instant?
I go to look at a car, agree to buy it.
Seller contacts DVLA by phone or web and cancels the tax.
I ring up my insurer and arrange instant insurance.
Then I ring up or online DVLA, and instantly licence the car so that I can drive it away? DVLA will know a) that the car does not already have tax, because it has just been cancelled
b) that the car has insurance ?
Insurance already works to the minute, and can be purchased instantly by phone, in chunks of 24 hours cover. It would appear that DVLA think they can similarly operate a system that can update immediately, and will operate to the minute too.
In the interval between the seller cancelling and the new buyer arranging tax, presumably the car will theoretically be on SORN, so illegally on the road for 5 minutes or a few days.
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>>
>> Good point. Then for this to work it will surely have to be virtually instant?
Well, it's certainly going to be virtual. :)
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Can't sell your used car with road tax. - bathtub tom
