Recently bought my first ever automatic car - a 2007 Kia Ceed 1.6 GS.
First few days my left let was continuously looking for clutch and in one parking maneuver, I unintentionally ended up pressing brake via left foot assuming I'm depressing the clutch! The car made an emergency stop as a consequence =:-0
My manual legacy tells me to move lever to N in traffic light and apply handbrake if on a gradient. Though my veteran AT mates are saying just to ride brake and keep it in D.
For uphills, I'm shifting the lever to 2 or 3 though again I'm being advised to just to keep it in D.
It's a conventional 4-speed auto. Noticed (via RPM) that car moves to 4th just after 30 mph. On level ground, all gears being changed well below 2000 RPM marks. Fuel consumption (via trip computer) is good so far (at par with owner's manual).
Still don't understand what to do with my left leg. May be that's why some ATs have foot operated parking brake :)
Contrary to popular saying, I don't find winding country roads less enjoyable than driving any manual there.
The creep is a boon in stop-start traffic. All I had to do just shuffle lever between N and D.
But I find reversing bit tricky in confined space. The car creeps at its own speed and I'm not having the half-clutch control as in a manual.
Another thing I'm bit concerned about is the P mode. It seems less strong compared to keeping a manual car in gear. As per Wikipedia, that's the reason why parking prawls can't be used in buses/lorries (due to their heavy weight). So, if handbrake ever becomes loose and car is on a steep hill, it will put good amount of strain on transmission.
Other than that I'm lovin' it. Hope novelty factor will remain for some time.
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>> I unintentionally ended up pressing brake via left foot assuming I'm depressing the clutch! The car made an emergency stop as a consequence =:-0
Peeling yourself off the windscreen, it's a rite of passage :-P Albeit a sore & scary one!
These Ceed's seem to be well recieved by all their owners, still not heard a proper* bad word about them.
* It's korean, it's not a mainstream choice yada yada aren't proper...
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>> >> I unintentionally ended up pressing brake via left foot assuming I'm depressing the clutch!
>> The car made an emergency stop as a consequence =:-0
Ive Joined that club, drove SWMBO's 4 day old Auto C4 to Tesco (1st time ive driven a auto for a long time) was driving into a parking space, and went down to press the Non existant clutch pedal instead hitting the brake pedal with my left foot, consequesntly lurching to a instant stop in the middle of Tesco's car park near the front doors, every one looked - very embarrasing! :-)
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>> Ive Joined that club,
Me too, in an NSU RO80 belonging to an African acquaintance. The RO80 had a pneumatic or electric clutch that disengaged when your hand fell on the gear lever knob, a really annoying system when you aren't used to it. I suppose the reason for it was to avoid the power loss through a conventional auto. Like the early DS Citroen, it was different enough from an ordinary auto or manual to require a whole new training programme.
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>> NSU RO80
>>
Now what a car they were! So far ahead of their day - such a shame the engine (and gearchange too by all accounts) weren't up to it.
I drive autos out of necessity - too much town driving to make manuals a sensible proposition.
My left foot is firmly programmed to operate clutches, not the gentle touch required for brakes, so I avoid left foot braking. Also I find the pedals on most autos are aligned for the use of your right foot only (i.e. it's uncomfortable to use left foot to brake).
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>> These Ceed's seem to be well received by all their owners, still not heard a
>> proper* bad word about them.
>>
>> * It's Korean, it's not a mainstream choice yada yada aren't proper...
>>
I have owned Fords, VWs, Seat, Peugeot, Mitsubishi, and a few I'd rather forget, my Ceed estate is of comparable or better quality than any of them.
If you want a "proper" bad word about them I know of one owner (in Norway) who had a serious engine problem, the dealer could not fix it so KIA flew in an engineer and a crate of parts to fix it under warranty. It needed a new cylinder head as the dealer stripped a glow plug thread trying to fix it.
The KIA forums don't highlight many problems and I haven't spotted any trends.
I would buy another one. (Mine is a manual).
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 14 Jun 10 at 13:36
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Tonight's 6pm news on R4 mentioned a recall for 500 UK Ceeds, something to do with braking IIRC.
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>> Tonight's 6pm news on R4 mentioned a recall for 500 UK Ceeds, something to do
>> with braking IIRC.
>>
It was in this mornings Telegraph, not quite a recall of Toyota proportions. It was a batch built in 2008/9. Also 6,000ish Picanto models to have the fuel filler neck replaced. I would still buy another Ceed.
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...I would still buy another Ceed...
If yours slams into the car in front, you might have to. :)
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>> ...I would still buy another Ceed...
>>
>> If yours slams into the car in front, you might have to. :)
>>
Mine is not affected, yet! It is reduced brake effectivness, not failure.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 14 Jun 10 at 20:03
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>> The creep is a boon in stop-start traffic. All I had to do just shuffle lever between N and D.
You don't even have to do that. Just leave it in D and control the cars forward movement with the foot brake.
If you're standing in traffic for any length of time not moving, then put it in N. Otherwise you may be wearing out the brake bands in the gearbox. Although I'm not sure about this as it depends how the gearbox is designed. I read that it was fine to leave BMW autoboxes in D all the time as due to the design it would not damage the brake bands.
Maybe someone has better information on this regarding Kia autoboxes.
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Bought an automatic! are you femail? or disabled in some way?
You're gonna suffer now me ole son ~ high fuel consumption, torque convertor failure and,
your left leg will wither & fall orf.
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you should really folllow hj"s advice and get used to left foot braking before you get to the age where you cant learn it as you4r dribbles get in the way
also remember when you are stuck in traffic with your brake lights full on in my face i might get mad and d0o some stupid manouvere to get in front of you (not me but you get the jist?)
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At the risk of igniting the whole, almost pointless, argument all over again - FORGET left foot braking. Carry on with the learning process as you are now, your left leg will soon get used to doing nothing and it will not wither, etc, etc.
I've been driving automatics of all types for nearly 30 years now and I wouldn't dream of getting involved with left foot braking. It is because of this that I can and often do drive manuals with no problems.
Incidentally, I tend to slip the lever into neutral when in traffic. It seems logical to stop the transmission turning over against a resistance. And Bellboy won't go for me.
Oh, and you aren't a female (unless you really are but that's your business) or some sort of incompetent. Why keep a dog and bark yourself? (as they used to say). I don't know how stirring a lever about every few seconds or minutes ever caught on...
Last edited by: Mike Hannon on Mon 14 Jun 10 at 14:32
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>>It seems logical to stop the transmission turning over against a resistance.
When you're stopped, there's nothing other than the oil pump turning in the automatic gearbox - and that turns whether you're in N or D.
There's usually more wear in changing from N to D than there is in leaving it in D. While D is engaged there's no relative movement across clutches and brake bands, and hence, no wear at all!
The only thing to avoid is allowing heat to build up in the transmission fluid because of the fluid slip in the torque convertor.
The only time I move the selector from D while driving is when ascending or descending *steep* hills. While ascending, I dopn't want the gearbox to change up if the hill temporarily levels out a bit, and while descending, the over-run clutch is shorted out, giving more engine braking.
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>> you should really folllow hj"s advice and get used to left foot braking before you
>> get to the age where you cant learn it as you4r dribbles get in the
>> way
Only aged senile americans need to left foot brake. The rest of us (except bellboy maybe) know which pedal to press with the right foot. Funnily enough, as we do now with manuals.
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You should learn to left foot brake. Then you will not make the error of clonking the "clutch" by mistake - instead being used to using the left foot gently on the pedal.
Perfectly easy. Start from stationary with left foot firmly on pedal. Lift off gently until car begins to move, then press gently until car comes to stop. Repeat a few times and it will be like second nature.
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I left foot brake. Second nature although occasionally I leave the foot at home and right foot brake instead.....
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A mere bagatelle. A friend had the misfortune to have his leg amputated when young. When he got his first car it was a modified auto, and crucially the modification was that the throttle and brake pedals were reversed.
I foolishly drove it to see what it was like, and I can tell you your brain goes into overload in that situation when you're approaching a junction and instinct takes over. It was mighty close.
Came to a sudden halt at five thousand revs or thereabouts.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Mon 14 Jun 10 at 15:33
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We've got two slushbox autos. Wouldn't buy a manual now.
Right foot braking....left leg tucked back against seat suits me fine.
Leave in D when stopped, with the footbrake holding it. If you know the stop is going to be longer put the handbrake on, still in D.
Reversing, let it creep and control speed with the footbrake.
No hard rules, do what you're comfortable with.
Perfick !
Ted
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The only "improvement" to this autobox in traffic malarkey is the much vaunted but untried (by me anyway) Mercedes full distronic system, which will maintain your distance from the car in front at all speeds down to nothing apparently. I think the full version is only currently on the S-Class? Anyway, the car just needs steering in traffic.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Mon 14 Jun 10 at 15:57
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"...Fuel consumption (via trip computer) is good so far..."
Had a 2.0l ceed auto (I don't think it's available in UK) for 21 months/35,000 km and have averaged 38 mpg on brim-to-brim records over that time.
Am a right-foot braker - with left-hand drive cars the pedal layout is not restricted as it is in RHDs, and in my previous Golf auto it was virtually impossible to left foot brake as the pedal was well to the right of the steering column line and would have required contortions to reach it with the left foot
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>> Had a 2.0l ceed auto (I don't think it's available in UK)>>
The 2.0 petrol and diesel were discontinued in the UK when the faclift model was introduced last October.
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>>crucially the modification was that the throttle and brake pedals were reversed.
One of my father's customers had a car modified in exactly this way. It was about 20 years ago when I last drove it, and, back then, I didn't find it much of a problem.
However, I suspect the required mental agility has long since left me! My cousins, who are a bit older than me, just couldn't get to grips with it at all - one of them had a very near do when he overshot the end of the ramp when bringing it into the workshop for an MOT - like you, the engine was revving its nuts off!
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>> (..) the throttle and brake pedals were reversed.
>>
>> I foolishly drove it to see what it was like, and I can tell you
>> your brain goes into overload in that situation
I once tried to ride a bicycle with hands crossed over - it was a singularly stupid idea. Hello clouds, hello sky, hello tarmac, ow! Some things the brane can't take.
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>>you should really folllow hj"s advice and get used to left foot braking<<
I heard say from a highly esteemed source that BB still uses his dictaphone!
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I got my secretary do do that.........see next month's Police Gazette !.
Ted
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He should use his finger like everyone else....
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I only use my right foot when driving an auto, except sometimes in very tight unparking situations. Left foot braking doesn't come naturally to old drivers. It's all very well for HJ who drives all sorts of motors all the time. But some skills just fade when you are a mere practical everyday run-of-the-mill driver.
When I was a pro - a South London minicabber in a very respectable (at first) Singer Vogue estate bought for top dollar from Godfrey Davis, part exchanging my knackered 30,000 mile Citroen Dyane - I became a very very quick traffic driver, verging on getaway but trying to stay below the fuzz radar. I'm not like that any more though, to the huge relief of all but the most wimpish of my passengers who imagine quite wrongly that I am still frightening.
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The reason i advise left foot breaking is for a few reasons...
Some autos dont creep so you have the feather the throttle and hold it on the brake.
Try and watch someone who isnt used to autos try and do that any other way on an incline in a small space.
If you do indeed need to drive autos and manuals then left foot breaking does indeed stop you stomping the wrong pedal at the most inopportune time.
If you are only and only going to drive an auto then i still do advise you wrap your left foot round your neck until you get used to it (you will still do a heart bending emergancy stop sooner or later by mistake though.
.
ps whats a dictophone ;-0
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...other way on an incline in a small space...
I didn't left foot brake until I found myself going backwards in the situation described above.
The car was a new X-type diesel and the only way to inch backwards on an incline was to left foot brake, apply a little throttle and release the brake a tiny bit.
Last edited by: ifithelps on Mon 14 Jun 10 at 19:57
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The car's manual says in this case use 2 instead of D. Of course that was for going forward.
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>Some autos dont creep so you have the feather the throttle and hold it on the brake.
Try and watch someone who isnt used to autos try and do that any other way on an incline in a small space.
If you do indeed need to drive autos and manuals then left foot breaking does indeed stop you stomping the wrong pedal at the most inopportune time.<
No it doesn't. You use the same foot for accelerator and brake in a manual vehicle - to make it move or make it stop - whether you are in a confined space or not. You can't 'feather' the throttle and hold it on the brake with a manual car, can you? Unless you're Jake the Peg. Almost all autos creep, which makes life easier. If you have one that doesn't, then you are only in the same situation as with an ordinary manual transmission. If it doesn't creep you don't need to hold the brake. So what's the difference?
In nearly 30 years of driving all sorts of autoboxes I have never been in the position of having the problem described above. Admittedly I don't know anything about automated manuals (except of course that Honda autos are more that than slushboxes) but I can't conceive there can be that much difference.
I still have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of advice offered on how to drive autos comes from those who only do it now and again. I don't think I've ever met anyone who drives autos all the time who uses left-foot braking. I guess they must exist, but I don't think I've ever met one.
Anyway, OP, enjoy the experience. You'll soon be wondering how you ever came to waste all that effort over the years.
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Agreed - just drive!
The whole point of autos is that they're less hassle and there's less messing about.
All this business of left foot braking, fretting about low speed manoeuvres, etc, it all seems daft to me. I've driven an auto onto the channel tunnel trains and somehow managed to control it with just my right foot, not to mention countless tight car parks and reversing into spaces barely long enough for the car... No bumps yet in three different autos, driven maybe 70,000 miles in all.
I gave up driving manuals a couple of years back. I decided the extra wear and tear on my left knee, lower back and left arm isn't worth it. Yes it's less fun, but rarely is driving much fun these days anyway.
Now I don't want to go back, only ever increasing taxes on emissions might push me back to a manual, but I'd be kicking and screaming! I'd have to give automated manuals a try first...
As to technique - 95% of the time just use D, except when going up/down very steep hills (even then most boxes are clever enough to hold low ratios, especially the newer ones) or select lower ratios when anticipating an overtake, it saves 1/4 a second waiting for kickdown to step in! Otherwise forget it - D will do everything you need except reverse!
Oh yeah, and applying the handbrake in traffic is a simple consideration, but still no need to take it out of D - but probably worth it if you're stopped for more than a couple of minutes.
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everyone to their own
one can only proffer advice
to be honest ive never had an auto since the greaT waR dammed blighter that was too
hand throttle old bean semi automatic too
dammed nuisance i can tell you,dropped my pipe a few times.............
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>> greaT waR <<
I'm just replying to this so I can check my spellchecker on firefox ... there was nothing great abouwt the Great Worr, except the frea fags (still not werkin)
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>> No it doesn't. You use the same foot for accelerator and brake in a manual
>> vehicle - to make it move or make it stop - whether you are in
>> a confined space or not. You can't 'feather' the throttle and hold it on the
>> brake with a manual car, can you? Unless you're Jake the Peg. Almost all autos
>> creep, which makes life easier. If you have one that doesn't, then you are only
>> in the same situation as with an ordinary manual transmission. If it doesn't creep you
>> don't need to hold the brake. So what's the difference?
What's the difference? You might have noticed a clutch on a manual car, which allows you to remove drive immediately; on an auto the "creep" allows drive to continue.
Moreover, autos don't have the smooth transition to power that manuals have; they surge. You need the brake to control that surge.
I had autos for a couple of years in the early years of this century; wouldn't have been without my left foot for anything! Probably did 20k in them. I am told that more modern autos are easier without left feet; I wouldn't know.
LFB is an extra skill that is there to make life easier for those who can be bothered to learn it. If you cannot, well don't!
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 15 Jun 10 at 18:03
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I agree with MH, i never use left foot braking with proper auto's, there's no need for it as the power rise is infinitely and finely variable and the car will not take off uncontrolled unlike below..
Automated manuals however are a different breed altogether and can be very tricky in close manouevering situations, luckily i won't ever own one and i don't miss having to load the tat, but many's the time left footing was required to prevent serious damage.
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I recently did few experiments with the car
* I checked that it is possible to near redline the engine when manually selecting gears (1-2-3). I managed to rev the engine till 4500 RPM mark (didn't try after that - redline 6000+ mark) and car was happily cruising in chosen gear (was not upshifting from selected gear).
* The car happily creeps in slight incline in D. In steep incline, it doesn't creep in D nor rolls backward. However, if I put into 2, it again creeps forward slowly (that's what stated in owner's manual).
* Performed some slow speed maneouver in a parking lot. Still struggling to understand left foot braking concept. Whether I press brake using my right or left foot, it has same effect.
* Last week I was driving a 2009 Vauxhall Corsa automated manual and at low speeds, I could feel the slight jerk while car was upshifting. But in my torque converter auto, the change is seamless (can be felt via engine sound and tacho needle).
* My left foot no longer looking for clutch :)
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>> LFB is an extra skill that is there to make life easier for those who
>> can be bothered to learn it. If you cannot, well don't!
>>
I'll let you know when my life is so hard without LFB that I need to be "bothered" to learn it. Until then I'll just drive normally without any problems, thanks.
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>What's the difference? You might have noticed a clutch on a manual car, which allows you to remove drive immediately; on an auto the "creep" allows drive to continue.
Moreover, autos don't have the smooth transition to power that manuals have; they surge.<
I know about clutches, thanks, having driven around threequarters of a million miles - only about one third of which have been with autoboxes. I never wore out or burned out a clutch, either.
Whether you press a separate pedal to remove drive or let the automatic system do it for you you still often need to press the brake pedal.
Autos (when working properly) don't surge and the smooth transition to power that manuals are alleged to have is of course entirely down to the skill, or otherwise, of the driver.
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>>Whether you press a separate pedal to remove drive or let the automatic system do it for you you still often need to press the brake pedal.
But don't you think there's a difference? If you're edging gently up a slope then depressing the clutch instantly stops the car; this gives you instantaneous control. Whereas in an auto you have to move the right foot from one pedal to the other in order to change from progressing to stopping; this takes time.
If you're moving on the flat, then you probably don't use the accelerator, the right foot poised already on the brake pedal.
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"I unintentionally ended up pressing brake via left foot assuming I'm depressing the clutch!"
In a properly-designed automatic car your left foot should hit empty space, not the footbrake, if that happens - and it can happen to the best of us if we also drive manuals. That's something well woth checking at the test drive stage.
Right or left foot braking - it's got to be a matter of personal taste, not an objective right way or wrong way. But I would say that RFB is safer if you regularly drive a manual as well as an auto. (There seem to be a lot of men who like automatics married to women who don't.)
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I have just realised why I LFB.
I live in house on a steep hill with a steep drive and a parking are in front as well a long drive to the garage at the rear. We also live on main road so we have to drive out forwards and not reverse out.
To turn the cars around involves a lot of shunting and in an automatic it is easier to LFB rather keep applying the handbrake each time you change direction. It has become second nature now.
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Avant>> Right or left foot braking - it's got to be a matter of personal taste,
>> not an objective right way or wrong way.
It's certainly got to be a matter of personal taste; if you're incapable of it, then it's not helpful! But indubitably the ability to LFB gives you greater control over a vehicle. See Espada's example.
>> But I would say that RFB is
>> safer if you regularly drive a manual as well as an auto.
Again, it's all a matter of what you're used to or capable of. Whilst I had an auto, I was doing a similar number of miles in a manual, and never found the transition a problem, hopping from one to the other.
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>> edging gently up a slope then depressing the clutch instantly stops the car; this gives you instantaneous control
You can move selector to N in auto for that!
LFB is not for everyone. I tried (in a quiet road) and car instantly stopped (I pressed too hard - coming from clutch background). I'd not attempt it for sometime.
Although I'm fairly new to automatic ownership, still not came to any situation where auto is not upto something where only a manual can do that*. I may be wrong, off course.
However, there may be cases when a manual would be totally inappropriate. For example, I once drove an auto Land Rover in real off road (LR experience day). There were some situations (eg. hill descent) when car drives of its own without any user inpur for brake/acceleration. I think a manual would be handful in that case as it is very easy to stall the car.
* = one situation may be extreme slow speed control using clutch half depressed during parking.
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Movilogo>> You can move selector to N in auto for that!
Really?
Movilogo>> LFB is not for everyone. I tried (in a quiet road) and car instantly stopped
>> (I pressed too hard - coming from clutch background). I'd not attempt it for sometime.
Then you'll never get better at it. Do as I suggest. Start from stationary with left foot on brake. Gently lift off, allow car to move forwards and gently brake. You'll soon get the hand of it.
Kensitas>> What the LFBers don't seem to understand, is that the bracing allowed by a 'free'
>> foot is vital to good & safe car control - with LFB you lose that
So on that basis you can never have good & safe car control with a manual?
Kensitas>> When you brake (with any intent or urgency) in a manual car, your right foot
>> comes throttle, moves to brake whilst clutch is depressed with the left foot - a
>> natural & effective brace to modulate braking input & body - steering input unaffected.
Wholly incorrect; you appear not to understand how to drive a manual. When you brake with intent or urgency in a manual car, your right foot comes off the throttle and reduces the car's speed using the brakes; meanwhile the drive is still engaged so as to give effect to engine braking and the additional control that a car has whilst in drive compared to freewheeling. Finally, as the car comes to a slower speed you THEN depress the clutch.
If you depress the clutch at the same time as the brakes you do not have control of the car.
I would go further than merely advocating it, and say that with LFB you have far more control over the car in a manoeuvering situation than you ever have with a manual. Why would you not want to have this extra benefit?
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Fri 18 Jun 10 at 11:23
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Kensitas>> What the LFBers don't seem to understand, is that the bracing allowed by a 'free'
>> foot is vital to good & safe car control - with LFB you lose that
So on that basis you can never have good & safe car control with a manual?
Of course you can! In all but the lightest of braking to stop or speed modulation, you will depress the clutch - this braces your body. If you're braking lightly (in a manual) without depressing the clutch, the situation is exactly analogous to that in an auto.
Kensitas>> When you brake (with any intent or urgency) in a manual car, your right foot
>> comes throttle, moves to brake whilst clutch is depressed with the left foot - a
>> natural & effective brace to modulate braking input & body - steering input unaffected.
Wholly incorrect; you appear not to understand how to drive a manual. When you brake with intent or urgency in a manual car, your right foot comes off the throttle and reduces the car's speed using the brakes; meanwhile the drive is still engaged so as to give effect to engine braking and the additional control that a car has whilst in drive compared to freewheeling. Finally, as the car comes to a slower speed you THEN depress the clutch.
In the context of LFB, we will be discussing EMERGENCY braking - maybe the term 'intent or urgency' was too subtle. In that case, you do depress the clutch & disengage drive. In light or moderate braking, the situation is as in the 1st example (in auto or manual) - LFB is a total irrelevance & depressing the clutch is the same as moving the gear selector to 'neutral'.
The 'engine' braking effect is also irrelevant in the manual is this circumstance - the brakes provide more than enough effort - probably enough for ABS to be activated on most occasions!
In my humble opinion, you understanding of the driving technique required in
an automatic car leaves room for improvement, if not complete revision.
Last edited by: kensitas on Fri 18 Jun 10 at 12:13
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>> clutch - this braces your body. If you're braking lightly (in a manual) without depresing
>> the clutch, the situation is exactly analogous to that in an auto.
No it isn't, as the left foot isn't braced. Or am I missing something?
>> In the context of LFB, we will be discussing EMERGENCY braking - maybe the term
>> 'intent or urgency' was too subtle. In that case, you do depress the clutch &
>> disengage drive.
No you do not; not until the car has been slowed.
>> The 'engine' braking effect is also irrelevant in the manual is this circumstance - the
>> brakes provide more than enough effort - probably enough for ABS to be activated on
>> most occasions!
When doing 80mph, engine braking is significant. If you disengage the clutch at that point you are losing out on braking efficiency.
At that point ABS starts to work then it's the other way round. If both driven wheels have locked, then your engine has stalled. Having the drive attached gives you more control as presumably it reduces the tendency to lock the wheels?
>> In my humble opinion, you understanding of the driving technique required in
>> an automatic car leaves room for improvement, if not complete revision.
You have completely misunderstood LFB is at its most powerful as a technique when manoeuvering. It gives, as I mentioned, under such circumstances, an automatic driver far more control over his car than a manual driver ever has.
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I think that in all but the rarest of circumstances (c.f. Avant's point) , LFB is a hindrance at least & danger at most - not least in the way is gives the practitioner a false sense of security & prowess!
What the LFBers don't seem to understand, is that the bracing allowed by a 'free' foot is vital to good & safe car control - with LFB you lose that - the only brace left is to press on the steering wheel, which inhibits smooth & accurate steering control.
If you LFB, your right foot has to find a 'home' when braking - most/many cars don't have space or bracing point for the left foot - result - you brace & modulate left foot braking effort by pressure on the steering wheel - bad technique!
Far from LFB being a lack of technique, it's a lack of comprehension by those who LFB about the ergonomics of car design, steering input forces & the effects of braking G on the human body when driving.
When you brake (with any intent or urgency) in a manual car, your right foot comes throttle, moves to brake whilst clutch is depressed with the left foot - a natural & effective brace to modulate braking input & body - steering input unaffected. The same technique is accomplished in an auto when RFB - the left foot can brace against the 'rest' or footwell clearance - again modulated braking effort & unaffected steering input.
Only 'amateur' or dilettante auto drivers think or attempt LFB (again with the initial proviso at top of post) in the misplaced
It's only a lack of technique in auto driving & failure to understand the 'physics' , in my view, that gives this nonsense of left foot braking any traction(!).
And before accusations of 'can't do it.. etc' are made - I've experimented with LFB in all sorts of circumstances - not real emergency situations, but simulated ones on clear/private ground - & found it lacking in all but the most specious of circumstances, (e.g. it can useful on very high gradient, tight' manoeuvres) in respect of controlled/quick braking & smooth steering input.
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Very, very interesting, kensitas.
I still wish I hadn't stirred all this up again...
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"And before accusations of 'can't do it.. etc' are made - I've experimented with LFB in all sorts of circumstances - not real emergency situations, but simulated ones on clear/private ground - & found it lacking in all but the most specious of circumstances, (e.g. it can useful on very high gradient, tight' manoeuvres) in respect of controlled/quick braking & smooth steering input. "
Which is exactly the point I made. I found it so natural that now I use it without thinking. I don't deliberately set out to LFB, I just do it, just as I naturally use my left foot to depress the clutch in a manual car.
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-foot_braking
Critics of the technique suggest that it can cause confusion when switching to or from a vehicle with a manual transmission,[7] and that it is difficult to achieve the necessary sensitivity to brake smoothly when your left foot is used to operating a clutch pedal.
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Kensitas>>What the LFBers don't seem to understand, is that the bracing allowed by
>>'free' foot is vital to good & safe car control - with LFB you lose that - the only brace left
>> to press on the steering wheel, which inhibits smooth & accurate steering control.
I'm really intrigued by this point, and don't see how it works.
If you're pushing against the brake pedal, then the opposite force to brace you comes from your bottom on the seat. Unless you have velcro on the bottom of your left shoe, your left foot is surely unable to help you brace.
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There's some funny stuff in this thread... Bracing the free foot...? Oh my lordy, are we coming to a stop in a car or pulling 10G inverted loops in a eurofighter?
If you're worried about your sparrow legs snapping off under heavy braking and your chicken bone arms not being able to steer properly then might I suggest you have "special needs" and should be in the back of a minibus, not driving a car.
Mapmaker is right of course but I'm happy to let him fight the corner.
Special needs!
Jeez...
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I'm with kensitas... anyone who drives with feeling and finess would have no need for left foot braking.... and anyone who completely lacks these attributes probably shouldn't use the left foot method anyway.
That leaves left foot braking for those HJ disciples in the middle ground.
:-)
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agreed BBD you get my thumbs up too
i too am allowing mapmaker to fight the corner but i do indeed wonder if kensitas is on wacky bacca ;-)
maybe he should change his name to park drive....................
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Bellboy did you type that with your right finger, whilst bracing yourself against the monitor with your left finger lest your elbow slip off the desk...???? !!!! ????
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Having only driven one automatic car, and that 30 years ago, I haven't much experience to add to this thread.
But when I went karting, where left foot braking is the only option, it felt odd for about two laps and then entirely natural from then on.
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>>>I'm really intrigued by this point, and don't see how it works.
>.Unless you have velcro on the bottom of your left shoe, your left foot is surely unable to >>help you brace.
If you're not using the left foot, it can be braced against the footwell/bulkhead rest - you're resisting braking g-force.
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www.securitydriver.com/aic/stories/article-101.html
...the dead pedal acts as support for your body under heavy braking, e.g. threshold braking during a race or emergency braking on the street. In these cases, your left foot braces against the dead pedal and prevents your body from sliding down in the seat (very helpful in a street car without racing harnesses!) Most importantly, this allows you more control over the brake pedal.
The dead pedal also helps prevent people from bracing their right foot in the wrong place during an emergency. Yes, believe it or not, many people will brace themselves by placing their right foot good and hard on the GAS pedal -- oops! Many times, when impact seems imminent, the brain says to the body "brace for impact dude!!" and freezes up. Sometimes, however, this freeze up happens when your foot is on the gas pedal. While the brain might have had good intentions, it certainly doesn't help accelerating into a crash! What the dead pedal does in these situations is allow the body to brace against something solid thus freeing the right foot to brake or accelerate away from a collision.
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Movilogo>>In these cases, your left foot braces against the dead pedal [(a lump of plastic >>attached to the floor, not a pedal at all)] and prevents your
>>body from sliding down in the seat (very helpful in a street car without racing
>>harnesses!) Most importantly, this allows you more control over the brake pedal.
Kensitas>>clutch is depressed with the left foot [allowing you to brace]
Well that's sorted then.
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I think, that some people can, and do left foot brake, and others cant, or wont.
I don't think either way is wrong, its just a matter of horses for courses!
Myself? I don't have any problems swapping from manual to auto, or back again.
my present car is an auto, I quite often drive a manual.
Do I left foot brake? yes I do - but.......
I believe, that if I had to do a panic stop, then I would probably default to right foot braking, reason being its more 'automatic' and quicker to lift off the throttle, rotate the foot and hit the brake pedal, IMHO most LFB drivers would do the same, its not like our left foot is constantly hovering over the brake pedal is it?
Ill admit to having driven on motorways (on a long journey without cruise control) using left foot throttling..... as always using my eyes (and other senses) to try and spot danger BEFORE it becomes a serious issue, defensive driving is the most important thing, on today's roads, I believe!
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Ere!!! There's a letter in the Daily Wrag today (from a Notherner!) who askes the question of why on automatics, when in neutral, does the gearstick go forwards to drive backwards and backwards to drive forwards?
The answer, for any other Toffs (like me) who 'take' the Mail, can be found on page 65.
Last edited by: Dog on Sat 19 Jun 10 at 18:24
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is it something to do with the reverse thrust of the planet gears on a wet monday morning?
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Wiki says
Vehicles conforming to US Government standards must have the modes ordered P-R-N-D-L (left to right, top to bottom, or clockwise). Prior to this, quadrant-selected automatic transmissions often utilized a P-N-D-L-R layout, or similar. Such a pattern led to a number of deaths and injuries owing to unintentional gear selection, as well as the danger of having a selector (when worn) jump into Reverse from Low gear during engine braking maneuvers.
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Its a case of ACD
Americans cant drive.
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Its got nothing to do with black pudding, mushy peas or flat beer, apparently,
Mr E. Edmunds of Bury, Lancs writes :- GM who pioneered automatic transmissions, used a P-N-D-L-R selector pattern, in its early auto trans, such as its Powerglide system.
In 1958, the U.S. Federal government ordered the change to the standard P-R-N-D-L sequence as a driver could easily overshoot L and go into R, which could damage the engine and cause serious accidents.
Reverse was put ahead of neutral as almost all manual cars of the time used a three-speed column shift (nicknamed 'three on the tree') set out in an H-pattern.
Reverse was left and up, first left and down, neutral in the centre, second right and up, and third right and down. So drivers of the time were accustomed to putting the stick forward to go into reverse.
Leo Myres of Lightwater, Surrey says :- When I lived in the U.S. in the Sixties, we had an old Buick with a P-N-D-L-R transmission. I recall one evening returning from a picnic and when going up a steep hill dad shifted from drive into a low gear.
Unfortunately, he overshot the mark and went into reverse, the car made a grinding sound, the rear wheels locked up and the rear end of the car skidded right.
He managed to get the stick back into drive, but it was terrifying.
So ... you've all done very well :)
Last edited by: Dog on Sat 19 Jun 10 at 21:00
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thanks dog
the bones yours
enjoy
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Forward for reverse and back for forward is second nature to me now - a bit like left-foot braking, I guess.
In sequential shift (which I sometimes use if bored when driving the Prelude) the lever goes forward to change up and backward to change down. HJ (remember him?) always claimed this was back to front and non-intuitive, which never made sense to me.
Back in the '60s it was a big adventure to change from a British bike with its usual 'one up and three down' gear pedal to a Japanese 'one down and three up' - ie, more or less 'up to change up and down to change down'
I guess it's all just what you're used to.
Last edited by: Mike Hannon on Sun 20 Jun 10 at 06:48
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>>Forward for reverse and back for forward is second nature to me now - a bit like left-foot braking<<
De aquerdo (I agree) ... I'd never thought about it - ever, until I read that article and it dawned on me Re: forward for backward & backward for forward, we (homo saps) are automatons!
I never commented on the ole left foot breaking, because I don't feel the need to do that,
I have used LFB when say I've been reversing up a slight incline in a tight space but other than that I can't for the life of me see that it would be necessary in any way.
Umgonna enjoy this bone now.
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Automatics - bought my first ever auto car! - Skoda
