A friend has just acquired a very nearly new Ford Fiesta. Apart from having a facia that lights up like a Wurlitzer organ when it is turned on, it seems a very nice refined well-behaved little motor, with a barely audible 3-cylinder thrum and quite a decent turn of speed anyway in urban terms. Lots of torque although the engine can't be bigger than a litre, can it?
As a gauge of its modernity it has automatic stop start, turning itself off and dimming the facia when brought to a halt and starting again when the clutch pedal is depressed to engage a gear.
Crankshaft speed at 70mph is 2,500 rpm (over 3,000 in my 2-litre Cruiser). I imagine it is quite an economical Ford, 50-60mpg perhaps in normal use. Indeed it is called an Eco-boost or something silly like that.
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Stop start seems very widespread now. Noticed it a lot in last few months of London commuting. Car alongside would be silent until lights change then as soon as clutch dipped it cuts in again.
Not an option I'd want but excepting school rush on a wet day and the Queen Eleanor interchnge/Nene Valley Way Northampton's not too bad for jams
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I'd be worried about Stop-Won't start.
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>> I'd be worried about Stop-Won't start.
So would I. But it's all different now ROR, drivers are consumers. Probably got new starter written into the maintenance schedule for every fifth service in the country, every second service in town... if you think about it, the starter will have a much worse time in London than in rural Norfolk say, or even where we live here.
:o}
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>> I'd be worried about Stop-Won't start.>>
You don't need to be. I first drove such a vehicle in 1994 (a VW Golf with a 1.9 non-turbo diesel that had a heavy duty battery and starter motor) and, once you get used to it, it's fine. That was despite being concerned about driving in very busy London traffic.
Been driving a friend's brand new Skoda Octavia estate with the DSG gearbox and the stop-start feature and it certainly makes life easier for those who are in a constant stream of traffic. Before my friend decided on the Skoda, we also spent a bit of time with a Ford Kuga and this was equally proficient.
Personal choice is still a manual gearbox though and no stop-start.......
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>> Been driving a friend's brand new Skoda Octavia estate with the DSG gearbox and the
>> stop-start feature
What prompts the engine to start in a car with no clutch pedal to dip? I'd been wondering how stop start would work in an auto.
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The engine doesn't stop when you dip the clutch on a manual car. It stops (when the conditions are right) when you're stationary and you put the car in neutral and release the clutch. On a DSG type car it's when you're stationary and the brakes are on.
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>> The engine doesn't stop when you dip the clutch on a manual car. It stops
>> (when the conditions are right) when you're stationary and you put the car in neutral
>> and release the clutch.
Yep, understood that bit.
>> On a DSG type car it's when you're stationary and the
>> brakes are on.
Didn't know that. When I come to a halt in an auto/DSG, e.g. at traffic lights, I apply the handbrake and put the car in neutral. Presumably, in a stop start DSG car, if one stops at traffic lights, the engine switches itself off. Then I would, as usual, apply hand brake and slip in to neutral. Would the car then be properly switched off, i.e. I'd have to press the starter button/turn the ignition key to get moving again, seeing as I'd be off the brakes already? If so, I don't like the sound of that. I am not keen on the thought of sitting at traffic lights with my foot on the brake to avoid that happening either.
Hmm.
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>> Didn't know that. When I come to a halt in an auto/DSG, e.g. at traffic
>> lights, I apply the handbrake and put the car in neutral.
What for?
Why don't you leave it in D with your foot on the brake, or put it into park?
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>> >> Didn't know that. When I come to a halt in an auto/DSG, e.g. at
>> traffic
>> >> lights, I apply the handbrake and put the car in neutral.
>>
>> What for?
It's how I was taught and seems best practice to me, as with a manual car.
>> Why don't you leave it in D with your foot on the brake
Courtesy to those behind (bright red brake lights on my car, don't know about yours), don't like sitting with my leg extended on the brake pedal either.
>> , or put
>> it into park?
Neutral is one notch away from D, and I can re-engage D much more quickly than I can from P, and I don't have to clunk through reverse, seems more mechanically sympathetic to me, and in my Mazda I can change from N to D without having to depress the brake pedal again.
Any reason you care how I do it?
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>> Any reason you care how I do it?
>>
Well, as you took the time and trouble to explain to us how you did it, it seemed only courteous to discuss the matter.
Or perhaps I have misunderstood the purpose of an internet forum?
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>> Or perhaps I have misunderstood the purpose of an internet forum?
>>
No, that's why I asked you why you were interested. Could have use different words, I suppose. Noah Fence meant.
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>> Any reason you care how I do it?
>>
If I am stopping in my LEC auto:-
For a short stop, say, less than 30 seconds, I keep my foot on the brake.
For a medium length stop, I put it into park.
For a lengthy stop I put it into park, switch off and relax.
I don't buy all this "you are blinding the driver behind" mullarkey. Either he/she is too close, or not close enough.
What's a 'handbrake'?
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>> Either he/she is
>> too close, or not close enough.
I don't get that.
>> What's a 'handbrake'?
You wouldn't know, driving a Munich Taxi.
:-)
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>> >> Either he/she is
>> >> too close, or not close enough.
>>
>> I don't get that.
>>
Referring to the dazzling of drivers behind:-
1. I think there is probably something wrong with their eyesight if they are dazzled by the brake lights of the car in front.
2. 'Too close', then leave a bigger gap if dazzled.
3. 'Not close enough', if you are close enough, the brake lights of the car in front will be masked by the bodywork (front wings) of the car behind.
Why mess around with the parking brake of an automatic car? Stick it in park. Job done.
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>> 1. I think there is probably something wrong with their eyesight if they are dazzled
>> by the brake lights of the car in front.
>>
>> 2. 'Too close', then leave a bigger gap if dazzled.
>>
>> 3. 'Not close enough', if you are close enough, the brake lights of the car
>> in front will be masked by the bodywork (front wings) of the car behind.
So sayeth the Duncan. Same thing from somebody every time this is mentioned.
Nothing wrong with my eyesight other than age-related presbyopia, distance immaterial within reason.
Perhaps it doesn't bother you, or you care not whether you can see properly. Fair enough. I don't care whether I "win the argument" or not either.
I will continue to be considerate to drivers behind, whether they notice or not. Leaving them with slightly better eyesight when they move off might even work to my benefit.
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it's the high level, often LED, brakelight that dazzles. I'm lucky in that I'm not hugely sensitive to it but others are and might also be detecting the LED's natural frequency.
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>> I will continue to be considerate to drivers behind, whether they notice or not. Leaving
>> them with slightly better eyesight when they move off might even work to my benefit.
>>
That's fair comment.
Are you saying, that if stopping at traffic lights, you slip the gear lever into neutral (or park) and apply the parking brake, the instant that you come to a stop?
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>> That's fair comment.
>>
>> Are you saying, that if stopping at traffic lights, you slip the gear lever into
>> neutral (or park) and apply the parking brake, the instant that you come to a
>> stop?
At night, yes, honest, after the car behind has pulled up, though I may leave it in gear for a short stop. Daytime or if nobody there, maybe not - depends how long the stop.
In all but the slowest queues I can usually keep rolling, no point racing up to the car behind. That probably makes life easier for the person behind and reduces the number of opportunities for them to run unto me. My wife thinks I am thinking too much about this, but as I say to her, I'm not really able to use the time for anything else am I?
I have a conventional handbrake. It requires some time and effort, but I'm not doing anything else so it's no hardship. Maybe automatic ones are even easier.
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3. 'Not close enough', if you are close enough, the brake lights of the car in front will be masked by the bodywork (front wings) of the car behind.
Rubbish. My LEC - yours too if it's post-2006 - has a metre-wide strip of brake lights at a height no bodywork is ever going to obscure. They won't dazzle anyone, of course, but it's unnecessary and uncomfortable to have them in your face, especially at night, so I try not to inflict mine on the driver behind.
And that means using the parking brake to secure the car and - if it looks like being a lengthy stop - N to reduce the energy I'm stirring into the TC porridge. Using P would necessitate another touch on the brake pedal to release the selector. And besides, if not for this situation, why is N there at all?
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>> And that means using the parking brake to secure the car and - if it
>> looks like being a lengthy stop - N to reduce the energy I'm stirring into
>> the TC porridge. Using P would necessitate another touch on the brake pedal to release
>> the selector. And besides, if not for this situation, why is N there at all?
That would by my routine too. In a manual with a conventional lever parking/handbrake I'd slip into neutral and apply handbrake. In a conventional auto I'd do same.
In either case I'd use red/amber phase or, if I know sequence, observation of opposed lights to slip into gear and be ready to move off on green.
No experience of foot operated or electric parking brakes so don't know how I'd cope with them.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 14 Feb 14 at 15:50
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>> Why mess around with the parking brake of an automatic car? Stick it in park.
>> Job done.
>>
As I said, because P is miles away from D on my car, through a dog leg gate, and requires the pushing of the brake pedal to allow me to get out of P. N is next to D and allows a much quicker reinstatement of D when the lights change, combining this with no need to push the footbrake it facilitates a quicker getaway. Notch it back to D, set the gas, and release the handbrake almost contemporaneously, much more convenient and a bit quicker than the rigmarole of P on my car. In the wife's Golf, you need to push the footbrake to get from neutral to D, which annoys me. My Mazda knows I'm a grown up and that I know how to drive.
Horses/courses. Why are you trying to push this point?
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>> Horses/courses. Why are you trying to push this point?
>>
Pot, kettle.
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>> Pot, kettle.
>>
Not really, when I'm the one seemingly defending a position. I'm not trying to win an argument, I said already you do as you please. I thought you said you were just trying to discuss something, but after having received my second explanation of what I do, you still challenge it with your "why not just put it in park" statement, provoking a third.
Odd. Never mind. Let's draw a line under it.
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Although mine's not DSG but a 'proper' auto the way it works is the same. When you come to a halt with your foot on the brake the engine stops, and when you take your foot off the brake it starts again. Alternatively a firm press on the brakes activates the 'hold' function, which means you can take your foot off the brake and the car holds itself on the foot brake. If you do that then touching the accelerator releases the brake and starts the engine. Turning the steering wheel also restarts the engine.
I have to say I don't give the whole stop/start thing a second thought now, and definitely never turn it off. I think it does have a benefit on fuel consumption - I only have to watch the average fuel consumption tick down at traffic lights and roundabouts when I'm driving a non stop-start car to remind me of that!
Last edited by: PeterS on Fri 14 Feb 14 at 10:38
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I turn the stop start off in my Pug as I find it annoying and it seems to make little if any difference to the fuel economy. Only thing is it has to be turned off every time the car is started. I am going to ask if it can be disabled permanently when it goes in for its service, but I suspect the answer will be no.
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I have it on the V40 - nowhere near as intrusive as the version on my X1. That developed a fault....linked to the Radio apparently, fixed after the radio was swapped under warranty...
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Another difference is the fact that you had to disable the system manually for every journey in the X1 - in the V40 you switch it off and it stays switched off until you switch it back on.
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Friend has an diesel Audi A1 with ss.
It's dreadfully uncouth when restarting...
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When mine starts on the stop/start by pressing the clutch it sounds totally different to when it cranks up on a key start.
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The only thing to worry about cars fitted with stop/start system ,is the price of a replacement battery.£200 plus ,in most cases.
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>> The only thing to worry about cars fitted with stop/start system ,is the price of
>> a replacement battery.£200 plus ,in most cases.
>>
Given how long a modern battery lasts is £200 every 7 years or so something to worry about ?
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>> Given how long a modern battery lasts is £200 every 7 years or so something
>> to worry about ?
>>
A stop start battery will work hard, will it last 7 years?
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>> A stop start battery will work hard, will it last 7 years?
>>
Does working hard shorten the life of a battery or does it keep it healthy ?
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>> Does working hard shorten the life of a battery or does it keep it healthy ?
>>
Pass, do we have a battery expert around?
Hard worked diesel submarine batteries were changed every two to three years, lightly used nuclear submarine batteries every five or so. (Refit cycles).
Last edited by: Uncle Albert on Thu 13 Feb 14 at 18:49
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>> Pass, do we have a battery expert around?
>>
>> Hard worked diesel submarine batteries were changed every two to three years, lightly used nuclear
>> submarine batteries every five or so. (Refit cycles).
>>
With mine it seems that as soon as you press the clutch it fires up without even appear to turn over even once. Also strangely the power steering, which is a proper hydraulic job still works when the engine has shut down as does the brake servo (or whatever they call that on a diesel) as the handbook says they will.
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My Focus "proper hydraulic" PAS was driven by an electric motor, no doubt the vacuum pump could be too. I believe some cars use the alternator as a motor to start the engine when in start stop mode.
Last edited by: Uncle Albert on Thu 13 Feb 14 at 19:53
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>> My Focus "proper hydraulic" PAS was driven by an electric motor.
Aah that could be the answer then. I didn't realise that set up existed. I've only ever known a power steering pump that was belt driven off of the engine, but then I only open the bonnet to refill the screenwash reservoir these days.
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It would it does not use the starter motor in the SS mode>> When mine starts on the stop/start by pressing the clutch it sounds totally different to
>> when it cranks up on a key start.
>>
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>> It would it does not use the starter motor in the SS mode>>
Oh right, how does it work then ?
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Must have changed it for the V40 as my V60 comes back on at the start of each journey.
I don't mind it, but I like technology stuff.
I think the main reason for it is that I believe that a portion of the fuel consumption test involves coming to a standstill so the SS results in zero emissions for that part
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I may have mentioned this before, but as the owners of stop/start equipped cars are usually benefitting from a reduction in VED, I don't think they should be able to turn the system off. Unless they voluntarily want to pay more VED...
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Chortle...you should see what mine costs to tax !!
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I recall some early stop/start systems used a combined generator/starter (a bit like the dynastart used in the '60s I presume) and therefore there was no starter motor to wear. Do they still use this system?
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>> I may have mentioned this before, but as the owners of stop/start equipped cars are
>> usually benefitting from a reduction in VED, I don't think they should be able to
>> turn the system off. Unless they voluntarily want to pay more VED...
>>
I would happily pay more VED if I had the choice to turn off stop/start permanently and to get rid of the DPF and have a full sized spare wheel and tyre.
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>> I would happily pay more VED if I had the choice to turn off stop/start
>> permanently and to get rid of the DPF and have a full sized spare wheel
>> and tyre.
>>
So, why did you buy that car?
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>> >> I would happily pay more VED if I had the choice to turn off
>> stop/start
>> >> permanently and to get rid of the DPF and have a full sized spare
>> wheel
>> >> and tyre.
>> >>
>>
>> So, why did you buy that car?
>>
Not possible to get new cars without unfortunately.
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>> but I like technology stuff.
So do I, up to a point.
I too believe automatic stop start is to do with the measurement of emissions, rather than emissions themselves or any fuel saving. I don't think measurable amounts of fuel are saved and I don't think overall emissions are reduced. Indeed both may be increased in real terms.
I posted this earlier and the post vanished.
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The Smart mhd usues an alternator/starter combination and drives the polyvee belt to start the engine.Big problems with the set up here ,is that the belt also drives the water pump.So you can start the car,drive away,the belt fails,and the engine overheats.The best bit is there is no temp gauge,just a warning light that illuminates "game over".
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I'm sure when I went on one of the new style Route Master red buses they use SS around London.
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The SS were never welcome in Town.
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I think they're hybrid, rather than stop-start...
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>> The Smart mhd usues an alternator/starter combination and drives the polyvee belt to start the engine.Big problems with the set up here ,is that the belt also drives the water pump.So you can start the car,drive away,the belt fails,and the engine overheats.The best bit is there is no temp gauge,just a warning light that illuminates "game over".
>>
Exactly.. done quite a few engines on those!
In answer to a question asked above, there are a few different methods of stop/start starting..
A starter/generator.
using the conventional starter.
on hybrids using the electric motor.
And then a very clever system.. the engine stops just past TDC. on restart, fuel is injected, and the spark plug fired, that alone is enough to kick the engine over and away she goes!.
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Instinctively I dislike stop start. However, I do allow that as the years advance, I dislike many things more readily. Perhaps that is inevitable.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Thu 13 Feb 14 at 22:11
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"Instinctively I dislike stop start"
I'm with you there, Runfer. For short stops it confers little or no advantage and for longer ones will increase emissions, as everything gets back to optimum working temperature, not to mention increasing wear while the oil starts to recirculate...
It will be interesting to see how well it all works in a few years.
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For short stops it confers little or no advantage and for longer ones will increase emissions, as everything gets back to optimum working temperature...
If you're stopped for so long that the engine cools significantly, then how much fuel would it have taken to keep it running? That's the kind of situation - level crossings, long temporary lights, motorway accidents - where even those of us without S-S switch off anyway.
If there were significant reliability or emissions problems with S-S I think we'd have heard about them by now. We had the same with everything from electric windows to catalytic converters, and somehow the cars we drive keep getting more reliable. I'll be happy to have it in whatever replaces the S60 - the new S60 I borrowed had it and it worked predictably and consistently, and was easy to override when necessary by simply holding the clutch down. It's not 1955 any more, chaps.
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>> If there were significant reliability or emissions problems with S-S I think we'd have heard
>> about them by now.
Google 'smert mhd problems' for information regarding significant reliability or emissions problems on that model of car... ;-)
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"where even those of us without S-S switch off anyway"
Exactly! And at least you're in control and can leave it running (without holding the clutch down) if the obstacle is short-lived. I know it's not 1955 any more, but if your auto S-S car won't restart, you're stuffed. Probably won't even let you drive a few yards on the starter...
Last edited by: J Bonington Jagworth on Sun 16 Feb 14 at 00:16
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...but if your auto S-S car won't restart, you're stuffed.
Maybe, but why should it not? My regular drive takes me from near Heathrow, often in queueing early-evening traffic, along a busy M4. I pass nine sets of traffic lights in all, but a bigger factor is often the summer evening (or, these days, flood-diverted) queues into my WDH home town. That bit can add 20 minutes to the journey, much of it stationary for a minute at a time. S-S would unquestionably save fuel in that situation, and would be doing exactly the job it's designed for. Accepting ST's point that Smart seems to have got something wrong, I still would feel confident in using it in a mainstream manual car.
The clutch point is crucial, I think. Thinking of the way I drive my manual car, if there's time to put it into neutral and release the clutch, I'm clearly not too concerned about making a move at a moment's notice because I need the time to put it back into first. If I stop at the line knowing there's only one car to wait for before I can go, the clutch stays down and the gear is pre-selected.
In the first of those cases, the S-S car stops the engine, but has it running again before I've even touched the lever in search of first; in the second it doesn't stop. And all I've done is drive as I naturally would. There's nothing to be afraid of!
I ought to say I found the S-S system harder to manage in an automatic C220 CDI I drove last year, because the element of control through the clutch wasn't there. But I suspect, just as you can learn to anticipate an automatic's shift points, and provoke or delay a change by adjusting pressure on the pedal, so it ought go be possible to finesse the behaviour of the S-S system. It's just another trick to learn.
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"It's just another trick to learn"
But I'm an Old Dog.. :-)
I'm sure it is as you describe, but I doubt that such vehicles will fit the bangernomic profile favoured in this household!
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>>And then a very clever system.. the engine stops just past TDC. on restart, fuel is injected, and the spark plug fired, that alone is enough to kick the engine over and away she goes!.
IIRC that's a very old idea. Something in the back of my mind about Rolls Royce and Trojan. Although they may have had to set the engine to an optimum position manually. How do they manage the engine to stop it where they want it?
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Sounds like the system Mazda are using for stop-start. In this iPod/iPhone era they call it iStop.
www.mazda.com/mazdaspirit/env/i-stop/
They definitely mention restarting through the use of combustion.
I thought I'd get annoyed at times with stop-start on this car. You can turn it off but it's turned on again next time you start the car. In practice it's rarely been in use for me. I have driven later VW's and stop-start seems to kick in a lot more often.
The other Mazda technology that seems to reduce emissions a lot is labelled i-sloop. Instead of recharging a battery it stores energy in a capacitor. So it can store a lot more energy and it must make a difference. Well enough to get emissions down to 104g/km for carbon dioxide on the Mazda6 150PS diesel.
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"So it can store a lot more energy and it must make a difference"
Not a lot more energy, but in a form that can be dispensed very rapidly, hence their popularity among the extreme audio brigade, for whom no amount of bass is apparently enough. A 10 Farad capacitor can deliver 10 amps for one second, which doesn't sound much, but it can also deliver 1000A for a hundredth of a second, which may be just what is required, and difficult for a battery. Another component to fail though (large capacitors are notorious for causing computer problems, and I have just replaced three in my PC that had gone South)...
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>. How do they manage the engine to stop it where they want it?
>>
That's the really clever bit...
... I guess. I really don't know the answer!
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IIRC that's a very old idea. Something in the back of my mind about Rolls Royce and Trojan. Although they may have had to set the engine to an optimum position manually. How do they manage the engine to stop it where they want it?
And other makes. It would be a fairly low compression engine so if you had relatively strong valve springs, I could see it being something one could design in.
Idea dates back to the turn of the previous century and was done with two ignition circuits. The re-start was done with a trembler coil, but this was only used for one spark.
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>> How do they manage the engine to stop it where they want it?
Thinking about this. A four cylinder engine will always stop with one of its cylinders on the compression stroke (why starter ring gears always wear in two places). Another cylinder will be on exhaust stroke. Another on induction and one on power stroke, but because the ignition is off, it won't have fired (and probably won't have any fuel in it as the injection would also have been off).
It would be a fairly simple matter for modern ECUs to identify this cylinder and with direct injection, give it a squirt and fire the plug.
I'm at a loss to explain how it'd work with indirect injection.
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>> one on power stroke, but because the ignition is off, it won't have fired (and probably won't have any fuel in it as the injection would also have been off).
Rolls-Royces used to have an ignition advance/retard lever over quite a long quadrant on the steering wheel boss. By setting it at full retard, turning on the ignition and then moving the lever to full advance, the cylinder on the power stroke would fire if you were lucky and the engine would start. I seem to remember my old man doing it, but only to satisfy himself that it could be done.
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About 18 months before the Octavia went I activated the "manual" stop start, fuel economy improved by 5-10% so I kept it activated.
Passat has the auto system which isn't turned off.
Not restarting - make sure you press the clutch all the way down or it doesn't.
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Skip - the started/generator in your car is different from the traditional kind and in fact is a three phase inverter driven affair that can turn extremely quickly.
Seems to work fine on the Insignia but it's very sensitive to outside conditions, so if it's very cold it allows the engine to warm before enabling stop/start. It's also handy if you stall it, since depressing the clutch means it'll restart automatically.
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I have stop start on my 2012 Civic. When it works it's very smooth and instant but I tend not to use it as I prefer not to put that restart strain on the systems (We keep our cars for 10 years plus). However when I did try to use it recently it wouldn't operate. Googling suggests it's known fault associated with the car not being used for a few days and the system thinking the battery hasn't enough juice. Amazingly the suggested fix is to disconnect and reconnect the battery, seems very Heath Robinson and presumably would lose the radio codes etc. It's under warranty so I will ask at next service for it to be looked at. Part of me is not bothered but maybe at some time in the future it will be necessary at MOT time that all original (alleged) fuel saving systems work. All in all given my 10 year aspiration I do wonder if that's an unrealistic hope given the complexity of the car - this is not just a Honda issue of course but I have to say I've had a couple of other niggles so the jury is out...
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Similar thing on our MINI Cooper, but in reverse as it were. Bought as a year-old from BMW fleet, with very few miles over 12 months. Initially the system never operated, but as we put some miles on it, and avoided too many short runs, it became active. Seems sensible to me, if the battery is getting low on volts, to keep the motor running.
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Similar system on the HDi Berlingo, I hate it in heavy creeping traffic and invariabiilty turn it off. Open road , with odd junctions and traffic lights, it works fine but it does make me nervous if I have slowly approached a roundabout and stopped, with the need to then quickly merge into fast moving traffic.
If the AC is turned on, short journeys have taken the toll on the battery, or the engine is cold the system inhibits the auto SS.
There are the odd Citroen quirks, it restarts if you open the passenger door - WTF? Can anybody explain that? It is necessary to leave your foot on the brake pedal to keep the SS 'of' when stationary. But to me that is anti-social for the driver behind. It would not be rocket science to monitor handbrake and footbrake sequence to have an effect on the SS system.
Not sure that it is car I would want towards the end of its life!
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>> It is necessary to leave your foot on the brake pedal to keep the SS 'of' when stationary
There should be a law against that.
Are you seriously saying if you apply parking brake once stopped, and take your feet off the pedals, it will restart?
I had 20 minutes in a queue behind a V70, with brake lights more suited to a lighthouse, at the Black Cat roundabout going east on Tuesday night. Prat.
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Aside from the benefits, perceived or otherwise, of greater fuel economy, the advantage of stop start cars for me as a pedestrian is obvious.
There's a very narrow one way street here that is often nose to tail and stationary for minutes on end at lunchtime, and I walk the length of it most days. Fifty cars ticking over, whether petrol or diesel, would be a different proposition to fifty cars with no engine running.
Even though of course it's only some (but ever more) that are on stop start, it is actually noticeable if you get a bunch of them, in sound level as well as breathability. Makes the odd white van with diesel clunking and fumes seem even worse.
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>> Similar system on the HDi Berlingo,
Is that the e-HDi with a six speed semi auto?
Mercifully stop start is absent on our standard five speed manual.
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>> >> Similar system on the HDi Berlingo,
>>
>> Is that the e-HDi with a six speed semi auto?
>>
>> Mercifully stop start is absent on our standard five speed manual.
Yes - Really it is a full auto (but not TC) - I have previously commented that it can certainly change gear better than I can :)
Talking to an inpendent Citroen only specialist last week, it appears that there have been several different incarnations of the system over the last 5? years. Their verdict is that most of the early criticisms have now been overcome.
>>
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Sat 15 Feb 14 at 18:53
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"it restarts if you open the passenger door"
That's 'getaway' mode. Useful for bank jobs or picking up your maîtresse...
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>> I have stop start on my 2012 Civic.
>>
Congratulations Martin!
That is your 5th post in almost 4 years!
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>> I have stop start on my 2012 Civic.
>> However when
>> I did try to use it recently it wouldn't operate. Googling suggests it's known fault
>> associated with the car not being used for a few days and the system thinking
>> the battery hasn't enough juice. Amazingly the suggested fix is to disconnect and reconnect the
>> battery,
I suppose if you know what the fix is, you can wait until it becomes a problem.
Meanwhile, fit a battery isolator and make a note of the radio codes :)
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Alanovic>>Didn't know that. When I come to a halt in an auto/DSG, e.g. at traffic lights, I
>>apply the handbrake and put the car in neutral.
NC has told us repeatedly that doing this will damage your autobox.
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Evidence for N_C's claim, please? I don't mean repeat what he has said, but provide verified numbers of damaged gearboxes directly attributable to putting the car in neutral at traffic lights.
I don't deny he will know more about it than me, but in the real world I haven't seen any substantiated evidence of a significant enough problem to discourage me from doing it.
Gearboxes wear out whatever you do, eventually. Manual and automatic. I seldom keep a car long enough to let it worry me as well, none of the 32 cars I've owned have ever had a gearbox problem.
It's Friday, it must be Mapmaker's day for trying to pick holes in everything I say. Sigh.
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What NC actually said-
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?m=338507&v=e
"... So, in summary, it's not serious either way, but thinking that you're saving wear by slipping a TC automatic into neutral has no basis in fact.
On the other hand, wanting to avoid creeping forwards, wanting to obey the highway code, wanting to avoid holding the hot service brakes on and damaging the discs, wanting to avoid blinding the driver behind are all much better reasons for using neutral."
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Thanks, Manatee. I'll remove one "Drives a 4x4 De-Merit" from my little book.
;-) ;-) ;-)
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.....but what about my Jazz CVT7 auto which has a starting clutch?
Is it better to leave it in D at lights etc. as presumably it's in "slipping" mode, or is it better to put it in N?
(Later models of the Honda CVT have a torque converter starting clutch mechanism, I believe.)
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I thought most (all?) auto boxes dropped into neutral by themselves when stationary nowadays, making manually shifting to 'N' superfluous?
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BMW ones don't. (Or they didn't in 2011)
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I'm certain the manual for my DSG recommends shifting into Neutral if stationary for any length of time.
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BMW do not and I run a new Mercedes and that doesn't in fact I do not know of a box that does.
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Entirely logical that a DSG box would be better in neutral for lengthy periods stationary though. It has no wear-free fluid TC, just multiplate clutches that are either engaged (no wear) or rubbing more or less.
Don't they put themselves in neutral when stopped for awhile?
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My MB has the 7 speed column shift auto, and I *thought* it selected neutral when stationary, but it's just an assumption. Certainly the BMWs I've had in the last 10 years (E46, E90, E61x2) which all had the 6 speed auto were very clear it was not necessary to shift to neutral when stationary, and in fact warned against doing so (or idling in park IIRC ) for extended periods. Again, I assumed they shifted to neutral when stationary as there was always a slight change in engine note. But perhaps not? Don't know about the 8 speed ZF box, though when I've driven them I treated them the same as the others...
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Automatic stop-start - Bromptonaut
