At a crossroads, I crossed North/South on a green light, an SUV coming across me West/East didn't stop at her red light.
I almost managed to brake, swerve and avoid her, but in the end she clipped the front of my car as she went past.
The lost control, it was a 30mph limit but she was doing 45/50mph I'd guess. hit a lamp post and bounced side-on into a wall.
And then it gets really bad.
Between the white SUV and the wall were two women and a baby in a push chair.
I was first there and in between the car and the wall. I found the pushchair all mangled and wrenched it out. Underneath I found the baby half under the car and covered in blood. I managed to get the baby out and as far as I could tell it had no visible injuries and I passed him off to another man who had arrived.
I then turned to the woman who had been with the baby. The reason for the blood became obvious, the lady had lost her lower leg. Other than make noises I could only put my jacket on her, what else to do?
I then went to the other woman who had been caught by the front of the car. A young, 29yr old girl really. She had horrible injuries to one of her legs, but it looked to me as if the leg was in place, the bone wasn't sticking out and it wasn't bleeding too badly, although with a 6"missing piece of skin, flesh and muscle it was still bleeding a lot and looked a hell of a mess.
Its been all over the news, but in Spanish so not much use giving anybody a link. The reports have been fair, and the witnesses interviewed supported me, for what that matters.
I was breathalyzed and drug tested and was clean. The Major in charge said that all the witnesses agreed with my version and the white SUV was speeding and ran the light.
That driver is in hospital. She is [hopefully still] pregnant. I have no idea of her version of events since she was completely hysterical at the scene.
I just got home hours after the accident. My wife made the emergency call at 12:40 and its now 20:30 or something. (we're 3 hours behind).
I've made statements to the Military Police, and later to their version of C.S.I. to the point where even I can't remember what I said last time.
A foreigner having an accident here is not the smartest thing to do, especially when locals are seriously injured. SOP is to arrest any foreigners until fault is attributed, and that can take weeks. So one worries even with witnesses on one's side - there will be a court case.
My heart goes out the the two ladies and the baby. I could just cry for them. I am obviously shocked, and now the immediate crisis is over I think I may go gaga.
Christ knows how emergency services deal with this type of incident all the time.
I don't know why I've posted this here really, I just felt the need to get it out. Sorry.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 May 14 at 01:21
|
Blimey!!!!
You definitely have my sympathy - sometimes it helps just telling others about it. I know you are on t' other side of the world, but it doesn't lessen the 'there but for the grace of god feeling'.
Look after yourself, and those close to you.
|
|
What a terrible event to be involved in. Sounds like you did well to help. All the best.
|
>> In case anybody is interested enough *and* speaks Spanish.
>>
>> www.chilevision.cl/noticias/noticias/nacional/una-mujer-y-un-nino-fueron-atropellados-en-providencia/2014-03-27/143937.html
A Quick auto translate
27.03.2014 | 14:31A woman and a child were killed on ProvidenceThe accident was caused by a pregnant driver who lost control of his vehicle.
A consultant home and less than three years after being wounded hit by a red jeep while traveling on the sidewalk at the intersection of Hernando de Aguirre Carlos Antunez .
This occurred when a pregnant woman for six months lost control of his vehicle and to avoid colliding with another car, went to the village where the two injured people were traveling.
The caretaker had just removed the child from kindergarten sector and led him into a car, which allowed only had minor injuries. However, the woman lost a leg due to the impact.
At this time, the three people involved in the accident are in the Santa María Clinic .
|
That's horrific Mark - no doubt will be the source of distress for quiet some time.
Despite the injuries however, everyone should live, and even minus a big bit of leg the pedestrian should hopefully manage to have a fulfilling life ahead of her.
I suppose it could easily have turned out far grimmer but that's little solace just now I expect.
|
Good God FMR, what a thing. Chile I presume.
Did the woman who had lost her keg survive? I think you're supposed to press on the place where the blood is pumping out. Not the sort of thing you would want to have to do.
I've taken to glancing left and right when going through a green... but I don't slow down much. Indeed as a London driver of long standing I often give it a quite gung-ho squirt to be last across an amber or just-red. Done it half a dozen times today in a restrained, wafting way.
|
Awful event for everyone involved. Babies do seem to ' get away with it ' quite a lot. So glad it wasn't hurt.
You take care...I guess it's not going to be easy for you for quite some time but I'm sure you have the best wishes of all on here.
|
>>You take care...I guess it's not going to be easy for you for quite some time but I'm sure you have the best wishes of all on here. <<
You certainly do, mine included.
Pat
|
|
Yes indeed, a dreadful thing. Not much we can do or say that's of any material help, but if it makes any difference at all to you then all good wishes and thoughts are with you.
|
|
Good luck Mister. I hope the powers that be continue to be on your side. Take care.
|
|
Sorry you had to experience such a dreadful event, NoF, and well done for keeping as many wits about you as you did. I think you're entitled to a bit of a meltdown ater an experience like that, so go easy on yourself if you feel it happening.
|
Now words or platitudes are going to help you prepare for the mental aftermath of all this, however you need to bear in mind...
......... None of this was your fault, you did all you could - there was nothing more you could have done
The gods were smiling on you, she didn't ram you through the door and you are lucky there are witnesses to prove it wasn't the "Gringo" The next few weeks are going to be tough for sure, but you are certainly level headed and pragmatic enough to be able to rationalise it and realise the statement above is true.
And boy it helps to be able just dump your feelings and story on here and get some supportive feedback, specially when you are miles away in a "hostile" country.
And yes, after being surprised by a fast, late red light jumper recently, I too cross on the green with my head flapping left and right like windscreen wipers checking everyone is where they should be.
Mind, good job you had proof via the news story, some on here might have accused you of making it up...... ;)
|
>> Now words or platitudes are going to help you prepare for the mental aftermath of
>> all this, however you need to bear in mind...
>> ......... None of this was your fault, you did all you could - there
>> was nothing more you could have done
>>
>> The gods were smiling on you, she didn't ram you through the door and you
>> are lucky there are witnesses to prove it wasn't the "Gringo" The next few weeks
>> are going to be tough for sure, but you are certainly level headed and pragmatic
>> enough to be able to rationalise it and realise the statement above is true.
>>
>> And boy it helps to be able just dump your feelings and story on here
>> and get some supportive feedback, specially when you are miles away in a "hostile" country.
>>
>> And yes, after being surprised by a fast, late red light jumper recently, I too
>> cross on the green with my head flapping left and right like windscreen wipers checking
>> everyone is where they should be.
>>
>> Mind, good job you had proof via the news story, some on here might have
>> accused you of making it up...... ;)
>>
Everything he said.
Stuff does happen and you are as much an innocent victim as those who were injured.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Fri 28 Mar 14 at 11:39
|
Mark, that sounds seriously traumatic - you would have to be very callous not to be affected by it. I hope you it gives you no lasting problems
Last edited by: borasport on Fri 28 Mar 14 at 07:48
|
|
That's a terrible thing to happen, and it is made doubly hard by being in a foreign country; you have my sympathy. I hope you and everyone involved recover from the trauma and physical injuries and I hope that the police/legal stuff that follows will all work out.
|
|
Take care of yourself, the thoughts of many will be with you even if they don't post here. Other people will care for the people injured. You seem to be well aware of the stance of the authorities, get a good lawyer.
|
>> well aware of the stance of the authorities, get a good lawyer.
^^^^^ Yes, he's right - you may be tempted to assume you will be ok because of the circumstances - but it really won't hurt to have the best on your side.
|
>>Christ knows how emergency services deal with this type of incident all the time
Because of training and the knowledge that you can hardly make matters worse (usually), and may well make them a whole lot better. The adrenaline buzz from patching up someone who is badly mangled is probably not far off that experienced by a base jumper.
I don't like adrenaline that much so I'm glad those days are largely in the past now, but some of the most exceptional docs/paramedics I know appear addicted to jumping in a wagon/chopper and heading of to the carnage.
I find it far more distressing to be involved with cases of children and young adults with illnesses I can do diddly to help, other than delay or ease their passing to the afterlife/maggotry.
There's only so much 'Mr Spock' logic you can apply before you remember you are a human with feelings.
|
Shocking stuff, NF. Awful thing.
Take care. By the sounds of it they were lucky you dealt with the situation calmly and as best you possibly could.
|
A Pregnant woman ran over two women and a child in Providencia
The driver had been talking on the phone when she passed a red light , hitting another car and causing the accident. One of the wounded has lost a leg.
At least four people injured left a violent accident during Thursday afternoon in Providencia.
According to preliminary information, a pregnant driver had been talking on the phone as she passed a red light, hitting another car and causing the accident at the junction Carlos Antunez with Hernando de Aguirre.
The wounded are two women who work in the home, a child of two years and pregnant women.
|
That looks helpful Mark.
Best wishes.
Neil
|
|
I can't add anything much helpful, but very sorry to hear about it. It could have been worse and it wasn't - trite but true.
|
>>I don't know why I've posted this here really, I just felt the need to get it out. Sorry.
Because it helps to rationalise it by putting it down in detail. Because, curiously, you 'know' us, and because of the form of communication it's all very calm and detailed; it's difficult to be very emotional when typing. And because you don't 'know' us at all. Because also it helps to have your own time-stamped version of events when inevitably it will come up in court.
And because you can be certain of a sympathetic hearing. What a dreadful thing to witness and be a part of. My sympathies to you, your wife, and indeed all the other parties.
|
>>Because it helps to rationalise it by putting it down in detail. Because, curiously, you 'know' us, and because of the form of communication it's all very calm and detailed; it's difficult to be very emotional when typing. And because you don't 'know' us at all. Because also it helps to have your own time-stamped version of events when inevitably it will come up in court.<<
I don't do thumbs and faces so I have to say what an excellent and far seeing explanation MM.
Pat
|
That's a bad experience Mark. The first stages of dealing with a traumatic incident is to rationalise your thoughts and experience and you have done that by posting on here. As they say, "It's good to talk".
How do they emergency services deal with such trauma? You become emotionally detached, go into auto pilot and get on with the job in hand. Doesn't mean it does not have an impact though.
Thoughts are with you.
|
Awful for everybody concerned, I know it won't help the injured parties but at least you were not injured and at least you know it is not your fault and you have witnesses. Must be a major worry though.
One persons stupidity has wrecked for lives of quite a few people, even if it is just for a few months. Deliberate bad driving just makes me angry because it results in things like this, and did I read correctly the woman who went through red was pregnant too? :(.
|
>>did I read correctly the woman who went through red was pregnant too?
Yes, 6 or 7 months I think.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 28 Mar 14 at 12:01
|
Very sorry to read this Mark.
I hope you can get good professional help with both, dealing with the authorities and for your own health and welfare. Plenty of people are here to listen and acknowledge in a supportive way if you need to 'unload things'.
You'll have a bad period for a while, but life will be good again in time. You mustn't allow the past to destroy the future.
|
>>Because also it helps to have your own time-stamped version of events when inevitably it will come up in court.
I hadn't thought of that, but given that I made two official statements yesterday to the Carabineros and to S.I.A.T. it is unlikely to matter.
The child is apparently stable, the one woman has lost her leg and no reattachment was possible and the other woman has kept both legs and is apparently serious but stable.
The pregnant woman [other driver] remains pregnant but I still have no idea of her version of events.
I have a lawyer, the newspaper and television reports remain apparently supportive of me. AFAIK, nobody has come forward to suggest that it was my fault. Which, shallow and irrelevant as it might seem, I find comforting. One starts to doubt oneself after a while.
I feel a bit shaken up this morning, a bit wobbly. I had to drive through the same junction this morning on the school run. Not pleasant.
Thanks for your thoughts everyone.
p.s. S.I.A.T. are the Chilean version of C.S.I. for road accidents - Sección de Investigación de Accidentes en el Tránsito
|
|
Good luck, Mark. I hope it's helped to tell us about it.
|
All good wishes from here, too.
For sure you will be upset, even though it was not your fault.
The trauma will pass, although I guess it will not be forgotten.
I once had a little lad dash out from between parked cars, in Acton, as I was driving past them. He head-butted the front wing of the Ford Anglia I was driving, leaving the car with a sizeable dent and he unconscious.
Luckily for him was OK: luckily for me, HE hit my car, the proof being the dent in the side of the wing.
I was shocked, though and for months afterwards was VERY twitchy when driving.
Expect to be a nervous driver for a good while.
|
|
Dreadful thing to happen to them and to you. Thoughts are with you and I hope for a speedy recovery from the situation.
|
Could someone do me a favour please?
The Automobile Association,
International Motoring Services,
Fanum House, Basing View,
Basingstoke, Hampshire RG21 4EA
...issue international driving permits.
However, their website says that they will only send it to the address on your driving licence - this does not help.
I can find no phone number for them and what I need to ask is whether or not it can be sent directly to me abroad, or at worst to my parents' in Tadley and they will courier it to me.
I'd appreciate either a phone number for them if someone can find it for me, or someone who already knows the answer, or someone who would give them a quick call and ask for me.
Failing that I am going to need to change my UK Address to my parents', apply for a replacement UK Licence and then get the international permit issued to my parents' address and then get it shipped across.
I'm going to do that anyway I think, because it will make future correspondence easier, but at the moment it will take more time than I wish.
Its seemingly not vital, but I know from personal experience that in a country of bureaucracy such as this, one tries to dot every i.
Thanks in advance.
|
This page:
www.theaa.com/aboutaa/contact.html
Has this number:
Get an International Driving Permit
0870 600 0371
Choose option 5, then option 2
Which saynoto says is actually
0161 332 1789
or freephone (if that works abroad, I assume not) is
0800 435980
If any of that helps.
|
The Phone Book from BT has:
The Automobile Association
Tel: 0870 544 8866
Fanum House Basing View, Basingstoke, RG21 4EA - Map
But I don't know if you can get that from there.
|
Thanks guys.
No I can't call any 08 numbers from here. I am trying the 0161 number but haven't got through yet.
|
|
Try 01256 492000. Sounds like an Amazingstoke number
|
Ringing then now Mark
Pat
|
...with bated breath, Pat.
Thank you.
|
I have all the details now.
It can be sent directly to you but you will need to pay the oversees fee for postage which is £7 or Courier which is £26.
She said to download the form and send it in with a stamped addressed envelope (without the stamp!) and licence copy plus passport photo. Put your email address on the form and a Post It note on it to request they email you for you to make a debit/credit card payment to them directly.
Hope this helps
Pat
|
|
You are a star, I owe you. Thank you so much.
|
Don't start being nice to me now....I can't hack that!
Pat
|
|
If I'd known from that start that was all it took........
|
"What a dreadful thing to witness and be a part of. My sympathies to you, your wife, and indeed all the other parties."
Can't think of my own words after reading your account - so just echoing MM's comment.
Every best wish Mark,
Phil
|
Best wishes, Mark.
Clk Sec
|
My thoughts are with you and yours.
Time for an XL margarita and hugs with your loved ones.
|
I witnessed a similar accident when I was about 10yo. I can replay the event in my mind like it was yesterday.
Are you still driving on a UK license Mark?
|
>> Are you still driving on a UK license Mark?
That was what I thought when he asked about the International Permit application. Needs to dot those T's ASAP.
EDIT: Should have added the smiley to the dotted T's :-) But seriously sounds like Mark is a little exposed with respect to driving.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sat 29 Mar 14 at 00:16
|
Even in Europe you know the locals are going to get the better of you in the average dispute involving word-against-word.
FMR is fortunate to have had his crash in a country with free media and some sort of rule of law. I've been in places where the drivers of crashed vehicles may be lynched, perhaps to death, even if no one else has been injured. It's a sort of visceral loathing of the arrogance of the private automobile among those who can never aspire to get one through normal work. Something like that. Makes your blood run cold.
|
>>I've been in places where the drivers of crashed vehicles may be lynched, perhaps to death
North of "The Wall" ??
|
>> North of "The Wall" ??
Not the sort of places you would really expect. Rural areas in East and West African countries normally regarded as well-organised. Things may have changed in the last few decades but probably not much.
|
You should [have] write a book, my friend Laurie Smith (Lawrence Stent Jarvis Smith) led an interesting and well-travelled life, like thee.
He did make a start on writing up his life story via a ghost writer in Darset, but the ghost writer, erm, died,
swiftly followed by Laurie :(
|
|
Don't see why that would stop him.
|
|
I'll have to dig out the article I wrote about him which was published in the Western Moring News ... after being tidied up by a proper jouno :)
|
|
Horrific Mark. Trouble with this sort of thing it does stay with you, sharing it helps.
|
|
I'm sure you will gradually put this whole thing behind you NFM, it sounds like everyone's worst nightmare. From what you describe, you had great mental strength and calmness in the heat of it. Many people crumble into hysteria at far less than that, so it's a credit to you that you did what you did. Good luck with it all.
|
>>Are you still driving on a UK license Mark?
No. However the Chilean authorities are obviously aware that I also hold a UK licence. It is possible that they will ask to see it, and if they do they will require a translation of it. I am trying to preempt that simply because of the delay it will introduce.
Why will they ask to see it? Because there may be a form or a box or a question or a protocol that says "Look at foreigners' foreign license and check its valid".
It will almost certainly *not* say, but don't bother if you've already seen his Chilean license because they won't have thought of that when they wrote the form.
And here it is so bureaucratic that if there is a box all will stop until that box is ticked, whether or not it is relevant, useful or applicable.
For example, you should see the chaos created simply because I am foreign as are my daughters, so a set of procedures apply which totally fail because whilst we are all foreign, we are not all the of same foreign nationality and therefore the forms for completing as a family completely don't work.
My wife is Chilean, I am British and No 1 daughter is Brasilian but we all hold multiple passports. So, which queue should we go in at passport control? The Chileans don't know. They know we should go through together as a family in the same queue, but neither queue applies and we've been asked to move from both to the other before now by different officers.
|
"My wife is Chilean, I am British and No 1 daughter is Brasilian but we all hold multiple passports. So, which queue should we go in at passport control? The Chileans don't know. They know we should go through together as a family in the same queue, but neither queue applies and we've been asked to move from both to the other before now by different officers."
Blimey - what a dull and boring life I must have led! ;-)
|
|
Don't knock it, sometimes I long for a lack of variety.
|
|
Just heard, the baby is ok and now home with his parents.
|
>> Just heard, the baby is ok and now home with his parents.
Its truly amazing how resilient little babies are in accidents.
|
|
A weight off me, I can tell you.
|
|
If you need specialised help have you thought of speaking to the British Embassy?
|
I work with the Embassy sometimes, and they are very good at what they do and I like them. But this isn't their area really.
To be honest though, I'm getting over it. I'm still a bit emotional but talking here helps. Somehow as Mapmaker (I think) said, the combination of knowing / not knowing the people here makes it quite a safe place.
The worst bit is I keep remembering what I saw. That and the whole guilt/stress over how I should have braked faster etc. etc. etc.
Even worse is that the news reports have shown a witness stating that I was a hero for getting the baby out, and that has been picked up. For the avoidance of doubt, I was not. I just got under a car, moved some stuff and picked it up. No heroics or heroism involved. In fact I certainly should have had more of a clue how to help the injured ladies and am taking steps to make sure that in the future I will know if I need to.
But that just makes me feel worse.
Most are saying I could not avoid the accident and did well to reduce the impact as much as I did. However, I know that if I had looked down that road as I went to drive across I may well have seen her coming and from her speed might have done something, despite my right of way.
Its just a lousy thing which messed up several lives and even I realise that it was not my fault.
Trying not to bore people with it, but probably failing.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 29 Mar 14 at 21:44
|
>> However, I know that if I had looked down that road as I went to drive across I may well have
>> seen her coming and from her speed might have done something, despite my right of way.
But it was your right of way. If we all drive across junctions on a green light and slow to check what is coming across the junction on a red we will cause accidents. If the emergency services were coming they'd be using sirens and lights and only try to cross when they knew it was safe.
You've done nothing wrong have you and couldn't have avoided this. And well done for finding the baby under the car!
|
Not boring - talking/sharing is good.
Keep on as long as you want.
|
|
getting a bit fed up being nice to him tho.
|
Didn't think you'd be driving with the wrong licence - was curious why you needed the driving permit to be honest.
What a nightmare you've been through so far - not as bad as the women and child in the accident of course.
All the best that this resolves itself ASAP. Helps I guess the pregnant woman was on a phone. She's in trouble isn't she.
|
>>She's in trouble isn't she.
Yes. A lot. Really a lot.
Consequently she will fight tooth and nail not to be. Suddenly new witnesses appearing, changing stories, etc. etc. - it will all happen.
Right now there is a whole furore going on on the TV with doctors and the like saying that she shouldn't have been driving at 7 months pregnant, about how her judgement and emotions would have been impacted, etc. etc.
I wouldn't have wanted to tell my wife she couldn't drive at 7months. She was mean and vicious.
Still, she might use it in her defence.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 29 Mar 14 at 21:53
|
But if she was on the phone and was involved in an accident - is it like it would be in the UK? Even if she hadn't gone through a red-light the fact she was on the phone is a key cause. Going through a red as well...
I don't want to wish anyone ill - but I hope she gets what is deserved (I know she is pregnant).
|
On the phone, through a red light, speeding, all will have the same impact as they would in similar circumstance in the UK.
It is the distance and chaos from now until the courts accepting that those *are* facts which is the difficult, and frankly worrying, time.
|
"Consequently she will fight tooth and nail not to be. Suddenly new witnesses appearing, changing stories, etc. etc. - it will all happen."
That was one of my first thoughts. You've got to be watertight. Before you know it's you that's run a red light. Providing the Chilean authorities have integrity you should be ok.
But you know the game.
|
What are your insurers saying? They'll not want you to be in any bother given the likely magnitude of injury claims. Surely they'll have a vested interest in standing up for you? Do they give legal cover etc ?
I know it's easy to say and harder to do, but really try not to worry. You did nothing wrong and a whole lot right.
|
>>Surely they'll have a vested interest in standing up for you?
That is what you rely on.
However, right now the Insurance Company will do nothing. Not a thing. Why not? Because the Police haven't issued an incident reference number yet.
Why not? Because the policeman supposed to be doing that got called onto something else. And might get back onto it on Monday or Tuesday.
Only in South America......
|
Just a thought... but it might be sounding like there might be a game to be played here.... and press picked up on a hero finding the baby.... So why not make more of that for your own benefit?
I can think of some downsides.
|
I got your thought, but no I'm not doing that. I've dodged all interviews etc. and I'm not making out I'm something I'm not.
If it was property damage only I'd lie through my teeth if it called for it or I thought it would help me, but not for this. Can't really explain the difference.
|
You haven't been boring FMR, quite the contrary. Of course it sounds a bit traumatic but much worse for others than for you. You seem pretty grown-up to me.
Everyone survived apparently despite the assertion in one mistranslated report that two women had been killed... that must be a great relief.
The media spat you mention is really interesting.
I hope your car isn't too bent.
|
Just read this thread. Puts lots of things in to perspective when something like this happens.
Thoughts are with you!
|
>>I hope your car isn't too bent.
Its not. If the other woman had not been moving, say I had hit a parked car at that speed, then it would have been very minor. Bit of a bang on my bumper and her back door.
What did the damage was that she was moving so fast, so not just my impact into her, it was her movement *across* me.
Consequently what would have been an intrusive dent, became dragged across the car. Even then, my grill, the front bumper and the valance beneath it, and the number plate is about it. Even my headlights survived, although the indicators and sidelights did not.
Her car was always going to be trashed at that speed.
I don't know if I said, but when the accident happened I didn't know there were people on the sidewalk. It was in the moments after I heard a child scream and realised people were hurt. Even then I thought maybe the child had been thrown from the car. It wasn't until I was halfway there that I saw the pushchair and realised what must have happened.
|
Matter of interest. Early on in this saga the report, in the media, was that she was on a mobile phone and ran a red light. Where did those two nuggets of info come from?
In this country the report would be a generalisation until such time as the matter went to Court.
|
I don't know.
It will be some combination of real witness statement, people speaking with the authority of a witness but not actually being one, rumour repetition, wild ass guess, and total fabrication from the need to say something.
I don't know, nor am I allowed to know what the witnesses, or those purporting to be witnesses, actually said in their statement to the police.
There were two women who I believe to actually be witnesses, who I actually did speak to, and who have gone on record with the TV & newspaper companies.
But, for example, if one takes the phone comment;
At one point I was standing with a person. A most pleasant man. he said to me that there was a phone on the floor of the [other] car and thus he assumed that she was using it. When he looked, I pointed out that it was in fact an iPod, not a phone.
However, there was certainly a phone charger plugged in the cigarette lighter.
There was a reporter standing next to us listening to our conversation. Who knows how connected the newspaper report and that conversation actually are.
I honestly do not know if she was on the phone. I do *KNOW* she ran a red light, she was going too fast, she was not paying attention, she made no attempt to swerve or brake and in fact didn't seem to even see me until she felt/heard the impact.
I don't know how to explain how it works here - it is so emotionally different to the UK. It is, of course, a generalisation or an assumption. But here if enough people say it, then it will become an accepted fact.
I'm sure AC will get it, since he has spent time in similar places. But it is a difficult thing to grasp if you have only ever known the relative objectivity and fairness of the UK system.
|
p.s.
The "red light" comments came from pretty much everybody who had been there when it happened. Equally it would be impossible for the accident to have happened if one of us had not run the light - so inevitably it was her or me. I am fortunate that so many witnesses appear to agree with me.
I'd be pretty solid that that will get accepted as fact in court. Too many people are saying they witnessed it for that not to be so.
The "phone comment" is perhaps less certain.
|
>> The "phone comment" is perhaps less certain.
Thats matters not, as long as everyone is saying it wasn't your fault. Its not so different to here, an event witnessed by many, discussed within them all in the heat of the moment quickly becomes a "fact" agreed by all.
|
>> p.s.
>>
>> The "red light" comments came from pretty much everybody who had been there when it
>> happened. Equally it would be impossible for the accident to have happened if one of
>> us had not run the light - so inevitably it was her or me. I
>> am fortunate that so many witnesses appear to agree with me.
>>
>> I'd be pretty solid that that will get accepted as fact in court. Too many
>> people are saying they witnessed it for that not to be so.
>>
>> The "phone comment" is perhaps less certain.
>>
Start a diary type thing.
Date, time and sign it.
See if there's a system like here whereby you could make a statement via a solicitor on oath, whilst your memory is still sharp.
In the diary write down witnesses details, even if it's only descriptions.
In 18 months time (or more) you'll remember Jack.
Over here, your police statement would be provided at any court hearing for you to refresh your memory..over there ???
|
>> See if there's a system like here whereby you could make a statement via a
>> solicitor on oath, whilst your memory is still sharp.
Excellent, thank you. We're off to make a notarised and detailed statement at 9:00am tomorrow.
>> Over here, your police statement would be provided at any court hearing for you to
>> refresh your memory..over there ???
No. You will hear it in court along with everyone else, if it is read out.
|
>> Excellent, thank you. We're off to make a notarised and detailed statement at 9:00am tomorrow.
>>
>>
>> >> Over here, your police statement would be provided at any court hearing for you
>> to
>> >> refresh your memory..over there ???
>>
>> No. You will hear it in court along with everyone else, if it is read
>> out.
>>
The only thing I could have added, was an explanation as to why you'd want the diary or similar... and signed/dated.
Over here, if your 'original note' was recorded at a time you could reasonably be expected to remember as much as you are going to...then you are entitled to refer to it if/when you give evidence in court.
If your note was not recorded soon enough...then you are not entitled to refer to it.
You can of course read it before court...but if you are in the witness box for ages and being asked questions on something in detail..I'd want my original note.
No idea what the system is where you are...but it can't hurt doing it.
|
Thanks Mark
"But it is a difficult thing to grasp if you have only ever known the relative objectivity and fairness of the UK system."
Indeed I'm sure it is, that is why I suggested earlier that by whatever means you look after yourself and make yourself 'watertight'. Not knowing the country or system I'm imagining corruption, bribery and mutual back scratching- if you know where I'm coming from. Maybe I am doing them a disservice.
|
>> Not knowing the country or system I'm imagining corruption, bribery and mutual back scratching-
There can be a bit of that, although bribery isn't much of a factor when everyone except you knows everyone else, except you. The outsider tends to get the blame.
It's more an emotional thing. People aren't usually watching closely when a crash happens, and not everyone can make a quick, plausible assessment of what has probably happened, from marks on the road, the vehicles and where they have ended up. It can be quite difficult and even the Old Bill can get it wrong or be puzzled.
But when people hear something or arrive to see the injured and the battered motors, crazed opinions can gain sway and someone can start to look like the villain of the piece, however innocent they may be in reality. It can get well hairy.
An anecdote: a late friend, a bit older than me, many years ago being a London jazz drummer, well-respected, who had got a heroin habit, decided to live in Africa for a while to get off junk and hear some, you know, grassroots sounds. He chose Tanzania, married a local village princess and settled there.
A while later he had got into the local music scene, was happy and contented, off junk and drinking the local hooch instead, and had bought a Peugeot 404 pickup, bright blue, with which he made his living moving what the US Vietnam forces used to call ass and trash for small fees. One night he got the job of moving the equipment of some band to a gig venue. The amps and huge speakers were put in the back of the Peugeot with a couple of roadies or band members to supervise them.
At a certain point, hearing cries of alarm and distress, my friend stopped. One of the stoned idiots in the back had elected to sit perched on the top of a tall speaker in the back of the pickup, and on a bend it had toppled over and thrown said idiot into the road causing some sort of injury. My friend had been unaware of the stoned idiot's behaviour until he had fallen out and hurt himself. Naturally he would have advised sternly against it.
The rest of the band turned up, also stoned no doubt, in a following car, decided to blame my friend, laid hands on him and were trying to drop him over the parapet of a nearby viaduct to his death. Fortunately he was strong - and motivated - and resisted a bit, but was outnumbered and staring down the damn precipice when two other guys turned up in another car, unknown to all the parties, and were tough enough to rescue him. They came to say hello when I was staying with him in 1980 in his cluster of grass and adobe huts, no electricity, back of beyond, up by the Rwanda border... so I was honoured to meet them. He had been a clever man, important to me in a couple of ways in my early youth in the louche fifties and sixties Notting Hill. Seemed tough and hard to me at the time, but I had enough sense to see he knew what he was talking about. Cambridge guy, English Literature I think.
You get these mean-spirited evil lynch mob types. Alas they are very common. Fortunately there are good intelligent individuals too, willing sometimes to step in. Just as well eh?
|
Stuff of real nightmares. I can only echo the well wishes of everyone else.
I think we would all hope to remain as calm and level headed as you did, but truth is, most of us will never know and hopefully never find out.
|
I think these links will work...
The front of my car versus the side of hers, as you can see there is far less dmaage then one might suspect...
dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/64761208/2014-03-30%2018.43.37.jpg
dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/64761208/IMG_2135.JPG
If the photos show correctly, you'll be able to see that I hit her at about the join of her front and back doors, and then as she carried on across the front of mine, the damage runs along her car, and starts peeling the front of mine back.
[Don't worry, there's nothing nasty to see, that was all the other side of her car and can't be seen in these photos. In any case, these were taken about 5 hours after the incident.]
|
|
Further to Westpig's suggestion about writing everything down - copy and store everything in this thread just in case it is no-longer available in some months time just when you might need it. Web sites do disappear.
|
The Public Prosecutor (Promotor Fiscal, or something like that) has called me to make a statement to him tomorrow as a witness. It is significant, but not conclusive, that it is "as a witness". It means that they wish to talk to me as a witness, but that has no bearing on whether or not they change their mind about my status afterwards.
All of the witnesses have been called to the Fiscal's office tomorrow for individual appointments. Its intimidating.
They have "formalised" the other driver. Its kind of difficult to explain what that means, but its one less than charging her. It means that they have made it official that they are investigating her as the person to blame, without actually blaming her.
As I understand it, should she accept that status then I'm probably ok. Should she refuse that status then I will probably be formalised as well and it will go to court to be decided. Its difficult to see where the upside for her lies in simply accepting it.
Although the pregnancy/driving debate rumbles on.
My lawyer has charged me the initial £2,000 which is for his admin work. By the way, it seems that as I can afford a more expensive lawyer than her, I will not be able to claim that expense back from her, even if I am finally held blameless - along with most of the other expenses I will face.
I have to say, I'm glad I took the "write it down" etc. etc. advice that came from several of you here - the more I repeat the statement the more difficult it gets to remember exactly what I did/ thought and how much I have just worked out since then.
It seems to me that my issue is more thinking of new things, then forgetting things I already knew.
It is also becoming increasingly clear how precarious is my position
|
Sorry if you've had enough of this, but it does help me to keep a clear head writing stuff down here and listening to thoughts/opinions.
And don't worry Zero, you don't have to continue to be nice or tolerant or considerate. It unsettling when you do that, anyway.
|
>> Sorry if you've had enough of this, but it does help me to keep a
>> clear head writing stuff down here and listening to thoughts/opinions.
>>
Don't worry about us, if anyone has had enough they will not read the thread. There are better qualified people than me here who I am sure will do their best to advise. I will just keep quiet other than giving my best wishes for the outcome.
|
|
I'm sure everyone just wants to provide all the help they can through the forum. If you want to keep posting ... we won't be fed up - having heard what happened we are all concerned for you. It is a situation we hope never happens to us. Through no fault of your own you have experienced an horrific accident. I can only add my support to what all the others have said.
|
>> I'm sure everyone just wants to provide all the help they can through the forum.
>> If you want to keep posting ... we won't be fed up - having heard
>> what happened we are all concerned for you. It is a situation we hope never
>> happens to us. Through no fault of your own you have experienced an horrific accident.
>> I can only add my support to what all the others have said.
>>
Amen to that.
And the important thing is that you only have to tell the truth, for the other party to get out of blame she'll have to bend it considerably and that is always a risky and dangerous path to take. Lies can quickly unravel.
|
>>And don't worry Zero, you don't have to continue to be nice or tolerant or considerate. It unsettling when you do that, anyway. <<
Can I stand down too?
Keep posting, it helps.
Just heard the news about the earthquake in Chile, hope you're not affected.
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Wed 2 Apr 14 at 05:02
|
|
This "formalised" or "person of interest" process is common in many jurisdictions outside UK influenced legal process.
|
>> This "formalised" or "person of interest" process is common in many jurisdictions outside UK influenced
>> legal process.
Beat me to it. Similar to position McCann's were in in Portugal after their daughter's disappearance. The British press translation of 'suspect' completely missed the point of how inquisitorial justice works.
|
>>Similar to position McCann's
Oh, of course. Obvious now you mention it, but never occurred to me before.
|
|
It's the Napoleonic Code, which prevails in all but British colonies.
|
|
Keep posting Mark. Keep your words consistent. Is there any 'back-up' from the organisation that you work for or are involved in?
|
>>Is there any 'back-up' from....
No.
Not the sort of environment I work in, I'm afraid.
|
>> Not the sort of environment I work in, I'm afraid.
>>
The porn industry?
|
|
Just as many female body parts.
|
>> Just as many female body parts.
>>
Ah, taxidermy.
|
|
I just tell him to get stuffed, he doesn't understand posh insults.
|
Just back from my interview with the Chief Prosecutor.
The woman who I knew had lost her leg, eventually lost it just below the knee. The other woman whose leg seemed mangled but survivable ultimately lost the whole leg.
The baby had a broken leg but is ok.
The other driver is a lawyer, which is not good news, but in her first statement at the scene of the accident said "I was changing the radio station and lost concentration" in response to questions about what colour light she crossed. So, she is probably screwed.
They believe that she will accept responsibility formally to them as a result of her statements to the police and SIAT, although she has not done so yet. If she does not formally do so then they intend to obtain her phone records and are reasonably confident that will seal it.
She would be far better to accept responsibility than have it proven against her despite her denial - that tends to go very badly. Very, very badly indeed. Here you need to be very sure you'll get away with a "not guilty/responsible" plea.
As a lawyer if she is convicted she will not longer be able to practice law - I don't know if that is permanent or for some period of time, the latter I would guess.
At this moment they have confirmed that as far as they are concerned I am a witness, and not to be regarded as any type of person of interest beyond that, but I will probably be called as a prosecution witness.
I lost the plot a bit in the middle of the extremely detailed statement, but strangely now I feel better both for the statement and the slight plot losing.
Again I was not permitted to retain a copy of this statement, but thanks to both my own memory and the advice here of writing everything down carefully, I'm quite OK that I said the same stuff this time and last.
Here the Prosecutor also works on behalf of the seriously injured, so will obtain compensation for the victims in the process of the criminal prosecution.
As my lawyer put it, we're less worried than yesterday, but still watchful.
|
Yes, good luck.
I was going to say I am paranoid about drivers at fault changing their stories, but it isn't paranoia actually, it's experience. All I have ever stood to lose is an insurance hike, thankfully.
I am thinking a car cam might be a good idea again.
|
>>I am thinking a car cam might be a good idea again.
I think so, but it depends how wide a field of view they have. Would it have caught the traffic lights and the other car in this case?
|
>> >>I am thinking a car cam might be a good idea again.
>>
>> I think so, but it depends how wide a field of view they have. Would
>> it have caught the traffic lights and the other car in this case?
Pretty wide, would have caught you going over green lights. And that at the end of the day is all you need.
|
>> As my lawyer put it, we're less worried than yesterday, but still watchful.
Damn I was looking forward to the book, play and film Expreso de medianoche
|
Did you get the permit sorted out ok?
Pat
|
Yes Pat, thanks. Although its "in the post".
As it happens the Prosecutor wasn't that [at all] interested, but I am not fooled, I'm still taking the precaution.
|
Not much....
Baby fine. Parents suing driver of other car.
Both ladies lost a leg. Both suing the driver of the other car. They need to get loads of money since they are poor and their life going forward is not on the up.
All witnesses confirming my version of events.
Authorities prosecuting driver of other car.
I have made a further statement as an official witness for the prosecution.
Other driver and her husband are lawyers and they have definitely brought out the big guns. For her it is extremely significant since if found guilty she may no longer practices a a lawyer. I am surprised that they are not trying to settle out of court - perhaps they are.
The combination of the level of damage to my car and their perception of my affluence mean that there is no interest in paying me any compensation, I'll almost certainly have to pay it myself.
Authorities not prepared to withdraw their option of prosecuting me, although informally saying that they have no intention of doing so.
I will be so relieved when it is all over. Its a constant worry never mind the memories.
|
|
I'm sure it must be pretty grim....let's hope it resolves soon and allowes you to try to get over the other stuff.
|
Not much change, but just been advised it is going to court 27th August.
Whilst the authorities have not warned me of any impending prosecution, have not [their version of] cautioned me, and in fact have taken my statement as a witness, they still have not formally discounted me from the proceedings.
The 27th August will be a presentation by the prosecutor to the judge setting out the course they wish to take. This will include who they wish to prosecute and the basis for that prosecution.
This can be argued with by lawyers representing any of the involved parties.
I am involved, as such my name is included on an officially equal status as the driver of the other car is, or indeed as the injured.
The judge will approve, or not, their approach. If his judgement does not include any shots in my direction, then in the real world its over as far as I am concerned. It could come back, but its so unlikely as to not be worth thinking of.
I will not be able to claim for my car. It has already been mentioned that as a person perceived to have a level of affluence, it would be regarded darkly by the courts if I should try. Down here one does not ignore such hints.
I don't care. I deeply want this to go away, paying for my own damage is unmentionably trivial.
I heard from one of the ladies who lost a leg a few days ago; she has been dismissed by her employer with no benefits since she can no longer do her job. There is no DSS here. As a rough guide, even if the other driver is totally damned in the upcoming proceedings, it could be up to 5yrs before the injured receive any payments. How they survive without a job from now until then is their problem.
Tell me again how bad it is in the UK?
|
|
An appalling situation for that poor woman, NoFM. Reminds us what an achievement our welfare state is, whatever its faults, and why the small-staters need to be resisted. People in other countries can have it much tougher than us, through no fault of their own.
|
Its shocking and sad, WDB, it really is. And you would be surprised how little anyone actually cares. They've got an action going through government here, has been going through for some time, to shorten the term of these cases. unfortunately the rich and powerful can see no way that such a law would help them, and could in fact only harm them, so it has little support.
Once this court case is over and done with then I will let her have a few quid to tide her over. In truth not much by our standards, but it will help her.
However, I cannot do a thing until I am officially absolved. Show them the slightest glimpse of feelings of guilt and the courts will be all over me like a rash. They would not accept the idea that I might simply feel I should help, and yet have no feelings of guilt or responsibility.
|
>>>However, I cannot do a thing until I am officially absolved. Show them the slightest glimpse of feelings of guilt and the courts will be all over me like a rash.<<<
So should you really post tis on open Forum?
|
|
I hardly think anyone else involved will be on this forum ! It is heart warming to read that an innocent party is, from a purely compassionate motive, ready to try to help a victim.
|
>>I hardly think anyone else involved will be on this forum !
I do not think that should be posted on an open forum. Whilst the likelihood of comeback is pretty slim given the language barrier, remember how effective Google can be. This thread in which I described an accident was picked up on by a solicitor acting for the 'victim' i.e. driver 18 months later.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/?t=71031
|
Thank you for your concern, but it is unnecessary, I am not so naive.
Which is why I will not be doing anything to raise any hackles. Talking about it will not, even if I said it here.
|
>> Once this court case is over and done with then I will let her have
>> a few quid to tide her over.
You are a gentleman and a scholar.
Doesn't sound like the kind of country I'd like to live in, sunshine or not.
|
>>Doesn't sound like the kind of country I'd like to live in, sunshine or not.
There's a lot to love, you just don't want to be poor, or in a position where you need a welfare state.
|
"Tell me again how bad it is in the UK?"
'Tis as nothing FM.
I keep reading this thread and just keep thinking how lucky we are.
Good luck FM - both to you and other injured parties concerned.
Sorry I can't add anything more profound.
P
|
|
Thanks Mapmaker : that is interesting/frightening. I'm by nature quite cautious but perhaps here have not fully appreciated the power of searches. Always like a day when I learn something.
|
It's surprising how guilty one can feel faced with the sufferings of poor people, knowing one is there for a limited time floating on a raft of money and soon to vanish for ever (so to speak).
Owing to the idiocy of my host and of several young men some of whom were in the car, I once had to drive a weeping pregnant young woman to the railway station in Dar es Salaam so that she could catch the weekly train to Mwanza and get home to her sick child in the boondocks when there really wasn't enough time. The vehicle was a Fiat 125 with virtually no brakes. I did a South London getaway driver act and the train was still in the station. As the young woman reached the platform it started to move. She and the young idiots came out of the station and she sat on the steps weeping bitterly. As I apologised and tried to comfort her in front of a slightly stern-looking crowd, it emerged that she was skint as well, and I slipped her a few quid. The sight of the mzungu giving her money made the bystanders frown even more. God knows what they were thinking. It felt a bit hairy to tell the truth.
|
>> It felt a bit hairy to tell the truth.
>>
That's probably what the crowd was thinking
|
Should you care...
The court case has just been adjourned (again). However, this time the other driver has admitted it was her fault and has asked for 30 days to negotiate a financial settlement with the two ladies who lost a leg each and with the parents of the injured baby.
It is to her advantage to do so since it will count towards her character come criminal judgement time - and some of the potential penalties are very strong.
From a criminal system point of view that's me finally out of it. Its been a worry.
If she fails to negotiate a financial settlement with the other parties there will be a civil case but its difficult to see how that could involve me, other than as a witness, given her admission in court.
|
Phew!
I was wondering only the other day how this was going on, and hoped we'd hear!
|
>> Should you care...
Hardly life and death for the rest of us FMR. But personally I'm glad to see you back. I thought you had got tired of us and gone elsewhere.
|
|
Thanks for the update Mark and welcome back.
|
>> Should you care...
Of course, I assumed you had been banged up as the guilty gringo.
>>negotiate a financial
>> settlement with the two ladies who lost a leg each
Insert jokes about it costing an arm and a leg here......
|
Good to hear everyone concerned seems to be getting close to the right end result in the light of such tragic circumstances.
|
Just been informed that the other driver has been found guilty and the case is now over.
Don't know her sentence, don't much care, I am officially and irrevocably out of it.
I'm just glad its done and gone.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 20 Mar 15 at 17:54
|
|
Thanks for the update Mark. And justice has been done. But the poor injured women will continue suffering and struggling. I know you have helped as much as you could - legal processes etc. to think of.
|
>> But the poor injured women will continue suffering and struggling.
I don't know the amount, but the other driver made some kind of interim cash offer to the women which in Chile counts as mitigation in assessing the seriousness of the case and thus punishment.
Equally the insurer has no longer got a reason for delay and whilst the two women have no clout, the relatives of the injured baby do. That'll help.
|
Glad it is over!
It must be a worry when having an accident in another country as you can be seen as an easy target.
I understand that in some countries the foreigner is always at fault because the accident would not have happened had they not have been there!
|
Good news, Mark.
No matter how much you feel the facts are on your side it's always a worry till the I's are dotted and the T's crossed.
|
>>it's always a worry till the I's are dotted and the T's crossed.
Its a weight lifted. It cropped up in my mind from time to time.
|
>>I understand that in some countries the foreigner is always at fault because the accident
I don't know about that, but the foreigner is usually arrested for fear they will flee the country. The trouble is in countries where processes take months, that can be a very bad thing.
|
So today I had an accident..... - Alastairw
