tinyurl.com/kpv84ll
Large scale introduction of more & more electronics leads to heavier warranty claims - depresses Ford USA profits and does not help in Europe.
So the electronic gremlins might get more attention now from the manufacturers - punters have known this for a long time that big bills come with faulty gismos after the warranty period is up....now it is biting the makers - will Ford /GM and others up their quality to that of the leaders - mostly Japanese makers?
Personally the only real issue I have had were many years ago - then again I started buying Japanese cars 20 years ago.
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Electronics in cars have gone way too far, and I say that as someone who has worked in the IT and electronics industries for 20 years, loves gadgets, and is about as far from a luddite as it is possible to get.
The sad fact now is that cars are unfixable without dealer kit, or aftermarket equivalents costing way more than a typical indie can run to. Not only that, but even if you can somehow diagnose a fault and obtain a replacement part yourself, increasingly you need to code it to the car using the same expensive kit that is way beyond the reach of most indies.
I get why things like CANBUS are necessary with modern equipment levels and convenience features, but these systems could easily be made plug and play when parts are replaced. The need to manually adapt and code replacement parts to cars using expensive, bespoke equipment is intentional, and designed to raise revenue for service departments. Technically, it could be easily eliminated. Many cars now need adaptations to be run when batteries are changed, for heaven's sake. How does that work when they are 10+ years old and worth 500 quid?
Last edited by: DP on Wed 30 Apr 14 at 12:05
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How does that work when they are 10+ years old and worth 500 quid?
It's not supposed to. Best scrap it and buy a new one, please sit down and we'll talk through some finance options...
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>>> Best scrap it and buy a new one
Oh yes and I do agree with you there... you have to know when to draw the line. I would happily run mine another year if I didn't need more space and I would expect it to be useful to one more owner but I'd guess at its age/value then that owner would not properly maintain it and the scrappy would be next.
In truth financially I could scrap it now to save selling hassle as soon as the replacement is found** but it's too goo really.
** Saw a newly listed Alfa estate on Autotrader today... lowish miles, great colour and looking tidy. Phoned the landline number and asked if it was convenient to speak about the Alfa for sale. No mate was the grunted reply so that was the end of that one. Strange folks.
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>> ** Saw a newly listed Alfa estate on Autotrader today... lowish miles, great colour and
>> looking tidy. Phoned the landline number and asked if it was convenient to speak about
>> the Alfa for sale. No mate was the grunted reply so that was the end
>> of that one. Strange folks.
>>
You should thank the man!
He is just saving you from yourself.
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That's one reason why I'm happy to stay driving Subaru.
Bulb blows, puncture, new battery - pop it on yourself, start up, drive off. No LEDs, recoding or resetting tyre pressure monitors needed. Merits I'll look for again* when (eventually) Scooby No. 2 goes to the Great Breaker's Yard in the Sky.
Edit: SWMBO gets tempted every so often by tales of people drving newer Ford/VAG/BM diesels claiming 50mpg to our 30. But now she's got a 2006 (petrol) Honda that's running like new, she's beginning to realise I was on to something all along...
* The trick seems to be to look for what sells in the US and Australia - they don't tolerate botchy build quality like we do.
Last edited by: Gromit on Wed 30 Apr 14 at 12:16
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>>>That's one reason why I'm happy to stay driving Subaru.
And on the flipside the reliability of systems is why I'm happy to drive Alfa and if possible replace with Alfa.
>>>The sad fact now is that cars are unfixable without dealer kit, or aftermarket equivalents costing way more than a typical indie can run to.... How does that work when they are 10+ years old and worth 500 quid?
The truth is modern car electronics have brought a level of efficiency, convenience and reliability we could never have dreamed of back in the 60/70s.
Surely my Alfa is the perfect example of your 10+ yrs old and worth £500.
It has done over 160k and is 11yrs old and not worth much more than £500.
Its systems/electronics include (the obvious initially) all elec windows, c/lock and clever alarm, electronic control of diesel fuelling system, ABS, electronic brake force distribution, traction control, dynamic stability control, clever Bose CD stereo with steering wheel controls, "head up display" infocentre for trip computer and other functions, dual zone digital climate control with air quality monitoring, cruise control, 6 airbags and seat belt pretensioners, heated seats with elec pumped lumbar setting for driver etc etc.
All these things work perfectly!
I have the full history of the car and previously not one of these systems has needed repair... and in my time it's been oil/filters, tyres, discs/pads etc... routine stuff not electronic issues.
So if an "unreliable" Alfa can get to end of life with all it's complex systems doing their job then there isn't really an issue with them in cars as a whole surely?
Oh and if you really want to talk to the car a set of leads for the laptop and a diagnostic program are less than £100.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 30 Apr 14 at 12:52
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That's true for your car, would you say it's true for all similar cars though?
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Well I've had exactly the same good experience with Citroen, Mondeo, Discovery & others over the past decade.
For all the doom re certain cars and their traits I never expect any modern car I own to let me down and they don't.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 30 Apr 14 at 13:09
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I have pondered on them in the past and if I did buy one it would be fine because if I buy something I believe in it. That car knew you had doubts from the start and met your expectations.
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>> I have pondered on them in the past and if I did buy one it
>> would be fine because if I buy something I believe in it. That car knew
>> you had doubts from the start and met your expectations.
>>
I've had doubts about all the cars I've ever bought though.................most have been fine.
(I'm hoping here your tongue is firmly in your cheek.............)
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>>>(I'm hoping here your tongue is firmly in your cheek.............)
Well not entirely...
Runfer is a case in point... he doesn't like cambelts... they know it and meet that expectation by breaking. I've not heard of anyone have as many go as him.
I always say be careful what you wish for.
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But that's chicken/egg. When my first cambelt broke, I'd never even heard of them. So my feelings on the matter were entirely unrelated to the car's.
Didn't have you down as the superstitious sort, F.
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>>>superstitious
It's more a positive thing really. As I said I don't expect my cars of any make to break down and they don't.
Yet others... and I don't mean just or particularly on here... seem to expect some disaster... and are often rewarded.
So I find it statistically proven if you believe a car will be fine it will!
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>> >>>superstitious
>>
>> It's more a positive thing really. As I said I don't expect my cars of
>> any make to break down and they don't.
>>
>> Yet others... and I don't mean just or particularly on here... seem to expect some
>> disaster... and are often rewarded.
>>
>> So I find it statistically proven if you believe a car will be fine it
>> will!
>>
I have to agree with you. I've never been let down by a car as a result of a breakdown, nor do I ever expect to be. But I do keep my cars well maintained. That goes for everything from the recently sold 20 year old Audi, the 23 year old BMW 325i I sold in 2011, to brand new cars of various makes. Including more than my fair share of French and Italian cars as well as the German ones... The power of positive thinking!!
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"For all the doom re certain cars and their traits..."
My point about the Subaru wasn't that the creature comforts on new cars break as they get older (the only failed gadget on my 182,000 mile Forester was the clock!) but that I don't see why I can swap the battery out on that Subaru myself, but can't on a Pug of the same age without scrambling its electronic brain.
As an aside, I suspect the doom sometimes has more to do with how much abuse and neglect some makes will tolerate than inherent faults. Neither the Fiat Punto or Panda I ran ever failed me, but then again I maintained them well. Same can't be said of either Renault Scenic, both of which failed me despite maintaining them well.
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Interesting final point Gromit - So, apart from Subarus, what cars are you thinking of where the same model sells in USA, Australia & UK?
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There aren't many, to be honest.
Toyota Landcruiser, Hilux, Corolla/Auris
Lexus - all of them, I think. RX also sold as a Toyota Fourrunner.
Honda CRV (sold in Auz & NZ at least), Accord (sold an Accura in the US, I think)
Subaru Legacy (Liberty in Auz)/Outback, Impreza and Forester
Hyundai Santa Fe and whatever the large saloon (was Sonata) is called now
Mitsubishi Lancer, Outlander. Not sure what the closest cousins of the pickups are, if any
Um, that's about it...
Last edited by: Gromit on Wed 30 Apr 14 at 14:25
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>>That's one reason why I'm happy to stay driving Subaru.
ditto ... had it a year now and it still brings a smile to my face when driving it.
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>> That's one reason why I'm happy to stay driving Subaru.
>>
Shame all their autos are ghastly CVTs these days!
>> The trick seems to be to look for what sells in the US and
>> Australia - they don't tolerate botchy build quality like we do.
>>
US cars don't have botchy build quality? Have you driven one recently? I have!
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1) Losing (or failing to gain) customers is expensive
2) Repairing cars is expensive
3) Designing and then building them to be more reliable is expensive.
Since designing 100% reliability into a car is not possible, and even 99.9999% would not only cost billions it would prevent some innovation from being used, it has to be accepted that a measurable %age of today's complicated cars will fail.
The skill is finding the point where one gains money on 1) & 2) without losing more than that on 3).
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 30 Apr 14 at 13:34
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Of course, you can be GM and know you have a throttle problem, do nothing for 10 years and have a number of deaths.. I reckon a $10 billion fine...
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I think modern cars are superb and that is relative isn't it - the 1987 E28 BMW I bought in 1992 was 'modern'/expensive to run/is it your dad's/oh it will bankrup you etc....but now it would be a basic and primitive 'tank'.
I have had my fair share of big bills with all my cars but these have been on cars >4 years old that cost new up to £60k in today's money and I don't see it as a major problem anymore than a broken TV.
I have only broken down properly a few times over 20+ years, it was very annoying at the time, but you have to budget for it if you want 363 days of pleasurable motoring the rest of the year - and I would rather have 363 days of pleaurable motoring than 365 in a dull-as-ditchwater but reliable plastic-lined tin box on wheels.
Last edited by: Shiny Tailpipes on Thu 1 May 14 at 07:27
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"do nothing for 10 years"
As with the Ford Pinto fuel tank problem. They knew pretty soon that it was dangerous, but calculated that the cost of compensating people whose cars exploded would be less than a redesign and recall. That worked until somebody discovered the bit of paper they'd done the calculation on...
More detail here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto#Fuel_tank_defect
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Chatting to a colleague with a 6 month old E-class. Just going back in for the third time for a recurring "check engine" / limp mode issue.
Reading between the lines, the combination of the manufacturer trained technician and the manufacturer recommended diagnostic equipment at the manufacturer franchised dealer that have had two previous attempts at putting it right, simply isn't up to successfully diagnosing and repairing the issue.
I also strongly dispute the suggestion that cars built today are as reliable as those built in the Noughties or even the Nineties. That said, there was definitely progress each decade prior to that.
Last edited by: DP on Wed 7 May 14 at 13:28
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>> Chatting to a colleague with a 6 month old E-class. Just going back in for the third time for a recurring "check engine" / limp mode issue.
>> I also strongly dispute the suggestion that cars built today are as reliable as those built in the Noughties or even the Nineties. That said, there was definitely progress each decade prior to that.
>>
I do believe, I've been saying that for ages.
Present Merc's are probably the most 'issue ridden' vehicles they have ever built.
For someone who loved the marque, I feel truly sickened to what it has become.
Would I buy a new one? Not a chance in hell - I'd rather have a Kia!
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The issues must surely be a result of the added complexity of current cars, especially Mercs. A lot of the complexity is in gimmicks, rather than essentials to comply with legislation. Kias and the like are far less gadget-laden, and probably more reliable as a result?
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>> The issues must surely be a result of the added complexity of current cars, especially
>> Mercs.
If only it was just electrics and mechanical issues....
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Are they still having 7G gearbox problems as well then?
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Until that discussion (which admittedly is only one car), I thought Mercedes had turned a corner after a well documented period of dodgy quality in the late 90s through to the late 2000s.
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I spent some time on MB owners' forums while I was looking for an LEC. There were (for me) three options: four-cylinder S211 (2006-2010 model), six-cylinder S211 and new, four-cylinder S212 like Humph's. (There were some sweet MB-backed deals on new Es at the time.)
The (sometimes very strong) advice was that the late, four-cylinder, 5G S211s were pretty well sorted, if unspectacular; that the six-cylinder engines were OK but the 7G transmission had problems; and people were very wary of the Blue Efficiency injectors in the new 220 and 250 engines.
So I have the latest S211 E220 I could find. It's irksome in town because second and third are set too high - presumably not a problem with two extra ratios - but it's been faultless over 30,000 miles. Pity I can't say the same for the parking sensors - but I'd rather have a fault in something inessential!
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So far so good with mine, but it might be that I inadvertently dropped lucky in that it is a bit of a rarity in that although it's the 'new' shape and has the 250 engine it still has the 'old' 5 speed auto box. Doesn't feel like it lacks ratios and particularly in 'S' mode it doesn't feel like it lacks power either. Very torquey thing.
89000 miles up to now and so far anyway, it has been fine. Did 380 miles yesterday sans lingering and it showed 51mpg on the trip last night.
I like it.
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Ford - The cost of quality? Weighing heavily on profits! - DP
