Motorists may face penalty for overtaking cyclists on some city roads
Road safety proposal by Department for Transport would give cyclists priority, restricting cars to 15mph with potential £100 fine.
tinyurl.com/kbsdtwt - Oxford Mail
tinyurl.com/ke5xl6w - Daily Mail
tinyurl.com/m54w9n3 - The Guardian
Quite possibly available in other papers too.
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To be clear, the proposal relates to some cities and "lightly trafficked roads where cycle flows are high".
I can certainly think of roads in London where it would have merit, Gordon St and Malet St for example.
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Why are so many car drivers not prepared to wait until an appropriate stretch of road until they overtake a cyclist? I see this all the time both on narrow country lanes and city streets, cars squeezing past cyclists a few inches from their handlebars because thery are not prepared to drive a few hundred yards at the speed of the cyclist.
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>> Why are so many car drivers not prepared to wait until an appropriate stretch of
>> road until they overtake a cyclist? I see this all the time both on narrow
>> country lanes and city streets, cars squeezing past cyclists a few inches from their handlebars
>> because thery are not prepared to drive a few hundred yards at the speed of
>> the cyclist.
>>
There's a voice in their heads saying 'must get past the cyclist'. Last week some guy had to pass two of them here - tinyurl.com/n2eyxk6 but a little further on than camera car. Riders and car were heading in direction of view, around a right bend and onto a narrow humped bridge over the railway.
If a car had come other way, like Jag in the streetview scene , accident or or avoiding action clipping the cyclists would have been inevitable.
And motorists wonder why we get assertive and hold primary in such circs.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 13 May 14 at 11:29
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"There's a voice in their heads saying 'must get past the cyclist'."
I absolutely agree - and I think the problem is entirely down to the fact that most drivers don't ride bikes. The best cure would be to make all drivers do an annual 200 miles on a bike - but I can't see them agreeing to that!
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But most drivers assuredly do park cars - yet there's the same reluctance to wait for a safe gap before passing someone else's that's blocking their side of the road.
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>> "There's a voice in their heads saying 'must get past the cyclist'."
>>
>> I absolutely agree - and I think the problem is entirely down to the fact
>> that most drivers don't ride bikes. The best cure would be to make all drivers
>> do an annual 200 miles on a bike - but I can't see them agreeing
>> to that!
>>
Would one have to the full lycra get up? I knew someone who was into that sort of thing, called it his 80s wrestlers outfit. ;-)
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>> "There's a voice in their heads saying 'must get past the cyclist'."
>>
'Tis exactly the same with HGV's... cars will rush to get past you before a roundabout or set of traffic lights, worried lest you might impede their progress.
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>> 'Tis exactly the same with HGV's... cars will rush to get past you before a
>> roundabout or set of traffic lights, worried lest you might impede their progress.
>>
There can be more to it though Harleyman.
I don't like following something where my vision is noticeably restricted... so I'll often bung an overtake in, purely to ensure I can see more of the traffic in front and am not stuck behind a large van or HGV etc...the person I've overtaken might well think 'what's the point in that'...but I find it safer (and less smelly if diesel and large)....
...and only yesterday, I overtook a bus on a nice straight bit, when I could see traffic lights in the distance change to red to cover a bridge that only has one lane on it...because... the bus was exceptionally slow up hills and I knew there was a good hilly bit coming.
Forward planning and all that.
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>> Forward planning and all that.
>>
The scenarios you mention, particularly the second one, are good driving and are pretty much taught at advanced level.
What I'm on about is when they overtake too close to the junction WITHOUT reading the road ahead, and end up cutting you up because they've misjudged the distance. You then end up braking harshly which in its turn impedes the driver behind you, sometimes with unfortunate results.
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>> worried lest you might impede their progress.
>>
Failing to see the problem with that. You are generally a much slower vehicle, why shouldn't I overtake if I want and it's safe to do so? Are we all to sit behind your crawling behemoth eternally?
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>> Failing to see the problem with that. You are generally a much slower vehicle, why
>> shouldn't I overtake if I want and it's safe to do so? Are we all
>> to sit behind your crawling behemoth eternally?
Not at all, provided you pass me in a safe manner. See my reply to Westpig.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Wed 14 May 14 at 10:24
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>> Not at all, provided you pass me in a safe manner. See my reply to
>> Westpig.
>>
Yeah, agreed, that's motherhood and apple pie stuff, should apply to everyone regardless of vehicle though. You probably see it more often from a lorry cab due to your relative lack of speed, I, and I expect other urban drivers, see the poor technique you describe most often from two-wheeled vehicles trying to get past normal sized cars. Man kicks dog, dog bites cat, cat chases mouse etc etc.
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"There's a voice in their heads saying 'must get past the cyclist'."
I've had the same sort of reaction when driving the vintage car. Instead of following cos I'm doing 30 in a 30 limit, they must overtake. Gave a lady driver of a BMW her comeuppance though. She lined up alongside where the road turned into a two lane at a roundabout and when the roundabout was clear, we both moved off, and I was considerably faster round the roundabout.
Might have been made in 1930, but quite quick to 40.
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>> Might have been made in 1930, but quite quick to 40.
Sorry Sp - remind those of us who have forgotten what it is?
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Sorry Sp - remind those of us who have forgotten what it is?
1930 Super Sports Aero Morgan. Until the current model arrived, the fastest three wheeler they ever made. Claimed 80mph top speed and would probably do it, but I'm not that brave.
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>> Why are so many car drivers not prepared to wait until an appropriate stretch of road until they overtake a cyclist?
Some cyclists think they own the road (everyone knows that defaults to the motorist). In the real world the cyclist should get out the way if he/she is holding everyone up and causing congestion but just like caravan owners and tractor drivers who also hold everyone up we know it just isn't going to happen.
Would you shuffle along behind a pensioner on a footpath instead of passing them?
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>>Would you shuffle along behind a pensioner on a footpath instead of passing them?
No. But I might not barge them off the pavement. I would pass them politely and carefully.
People should drive like they walk. And that includes cyclists.
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Not sure if VF's comment is meant to be humorous. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and suppose it is.
This isn't about cyclists 'causing congestion'; it's about one road user legitimately taking their turn to use limited roadspace before another takes theirs.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Tue 13 May 14 at 13:53
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>> Not sure if VF's comment is meant to be humorous.
Looks dead serious to me, and I agree with it. Most cyclists are quite sensible in their fashion, but there are routes in London - the one along the Islington ridge for example - where cars need to be very quick and precise to nip past a bike cleanly. If you can't do it don't try of course.
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"Other measures included in the consultation include creating pedestrian an cycle zones".
We already have them - they're called pavements!
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I tend to agree withy VF.
It is advised in the Highway Code that slow-moving traffic should, where possible and convenient, pull over to let faster traffic overtake.
Caravans do it - sometimes
Very old cars and tractors do it - commonly
Tractors, diggers etc do it - sometimes
Lorries do it - rarely, but I've seen it.
But buses and cyclists - never ever ever.
Why?
And given that a motorist knows that a cyclist blocking the traffic will never voluntarily pull in, why are cyclists surprised that motorists are often impatient and will tend to seize any slim opportunity to squeeze past?
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" given that a motorist knows that a cyclist blocking the traffic will never voluntarily pull in"
Come off it, Cliff! Have you got a bicycle? If not, get one. What do you reckon to my idea of a 'compulsory 200 miles a year on a bike for drivers'?
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Yes, as a matter of fact.
But what point are you making - that cyclists are exempt from that section of the Highway Code, and uniquely amongs road users, are under no obligation to facilitate the flow of other traffic?
(I could have added horse riders to my list. In my observation they mostly pull over when convenient to do so)
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As Haywain says, come off it Cliff.
I'm not saying cyclists are without sin but I've rarely seen one deliberately block in way you suggest. If you wait your opportunity they're reasonably easy to pass - not wide/long like a tractor or bolt prone like a horse. Allowing the distance recommended in the Highway Code you're not seriously on the wrong side for long.
Certainly the pair I mention in responding to the OP were quite sensibly positioned. The motorist simply couldn't wait until they were round the bend and over the bridge. It's a quiet local road and unlikely that driver was not a regular user who knew there was a straight afterwards and a main road in under half a mile.
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Little groups of cyclists seem to be in a no win situation. You often get a group of six or eight round here, often along narrow lanes, all appearing to be taking part in some sort of competition, as they have numbers and fierce expressions.
If they bunch up, cycling three or four abreast, one gets grumpy and mutters about single file.
If they go single file, one gets grumpy and mutters about the line being too long to get past.
And then one mutters about there being race tracks for this kind of shenanigans, and has to go home and speak sharply to the neighbour's cat.
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>> As Haywain says, come off it Cliff.
>>
>> I'm not saying cyclists are without sin but I've rarely seen one deliberately block in
>> way you suggest. If you wait your opportunity they're reasonably easy to pass -
You haven't answered the main point.
How many cyclists do you know, would stop, pull in and let other traffic past?..and thereby acknowledge they are very slow and holding every one else up...i.e. as per the Highway Code.
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>> How many cyclists do you know, would stop, pull in and let other traffic past?..and
>> thereby acknowledge they are very slow and holding every one else up...i.e. as per the
>> Highway Code.
It's a bike, not a tractor and they're not that slow.
Rider can pull in at a safe point, where the road is straight and the carriageway edge smooth without stopping. He can be helpful too, fact that he's higher up than driver and has a better view allows him to signal them either to hold back or to indicate road clear.
Stopping, even on the level, means gearing down and unclipping then reversing process to get going again. And I'm not doing that 'cos somebody who can vary his speed with with touch of a toe is too impatient to wait a few seconds for the road to straighten out.
Even on bike heavy rural roads such as those in the New Forest that's not really a problem.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 13 May 14 at 19:26
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>> >> How many cyclists do you know, would stop, pull in and let other traffic
>> past?..and
>> >> thereby acknowledge they are very slow and holding every one else up...i.e. as per
>> the
>> >> Highway Code.
>>
>> It's a bike, not a tractor and they're not that slow.
It's smaller 'bout same speed though.
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>> It's a bike, not a tractor and they're not that slow.
They are uphill.
>> Rider can pull in at a safe point, where the road is straight and the
>> carriageway edge smooth without stopping. He can be helpful too, fact that he's higher up
>> than driver and has a better view allows him to signal them either to hold
>> back or to indicate road clear.
Yes.... but my point is ...pulling over, either a layby or wide part of the road, etc, to let following traffic past, because you are significantly slower than they are. You know courteous and compliant with the Highway Code.
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>> Stopping, even on the level, means gearing down and unclipping then reversing process to get
>> going again. And I'm not doing that 'cos somebody who can vary his speed with
>> with touch of a toe is too impatient to wait a few seconds for the
>> road to straighten out.
Ah, so you are too important for you to have to consider anyone else.. so cobblers then?
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>> Ah, so you are too important for you to have to consider anyone else..
>> so cobblers then?
The key words were 'wait a few seconds' v a need for cyclist to stop/unclip etc. Think of a car forced to stop, turn off engine and remove key to save a tiny impede of following traffic, get my drift??
In other circumstances, where hold up might be extensive I'd be pulling into a passing place or layby, something often doable without stopping.
I'm not taking lectures on consideration for other road users from somebody who, last time this came up, boasted of pushing into what was probably a marshalled charity bike ride. Not only that but doing so even though he was stopping down the road and had to push through the line again.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 14 May 14 at 12:15
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It's interesting both arguements are coming from the point of not wanting to be too inconvienist. The only difference is the time.
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>> I'm not taking lectures on consideration for other road users from somebody who, last time
>> this came up, boasted of pushing into what was probably a marshalled charity bike ride.
>> Not only that but doing so even though he was stopping down the road and
>> had to push through the line again.
Your memory is playing tricks with you Bromptonaut... either that or you are making things up to suit your argument..again.
I was driving down an 'A' road approaching a hill. To my nearside was a junction serviced by a 'Stop' line.
A large group of cyclists, say 60+, approached the Stop line as I drove along the main road... most failed to adhere to the Stop line and allow me my right of way and then of course slowly pedalled up the hill. There were already cyclists ahead of me pedalling up the hill, slowly.
I carried on going as is my right and desire.
Some 300 yards or so later, I wished to turn left on a merge left road...so I indicated left, chose my moment, merged with the cyclists and went left.
There was a continuous stream of them.
There were no marshals, that's a figment of your imagination, there was no obvious indication that a charity was involved, so again a figment of your imagination and I was not planning on stopping further up the road, again you've made that up.
Even if you were correct, if someone else came up with some sense, are you seriously saying you'd automatically ignore them.. just because in your view they did something you disagreed with in the past?
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WP,
I looked for the exchange but couldn't find it. My recollection was of you describing a former trunk road - the sort where the main route has been dualled and diverted well away so it's now a village/town link rd. I also thought you mentioned an outrider attempting to stop traffic, obviously I got that wrong
The 'charity ride' bit was my surmise from your description.
You were turning off again rather stopping but same difference in terms of your interaction with this group ride.
The point you came up with didn't strike me as sensible so much as what I've said before - an expectation that riders will part for your car like Moses was commanding back the seas!!!!
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>> I looked for the exchange but couldn't find it. My recollection was of you describing
>> a former trunk road - the sort where the main route has been dualled and
>> diverted well away so it's now a village/town link rd.
That's correct. It's actually the B3372 Exeter Road through South Brent and old 'A' road that the A38 now bypasses. The road I merged into was Plymouth Road.
>> The point you came up with didn't strike me as sensible so much as what
>> I've said before - an expectation that riders will part for your car like Moses
>> was commanding back the seas!!!!
>>
I chose my spot where there was a sort of gap, indicated left and started to gently merge, at a very slow pace, some cyclists changed their route slightly and overtook me, which allowed me to merge left as they were no longer there.
Last edited by: Westpig on Wed 14 May 14 at 22:20
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>> 'compulsory 200 miles a year on a bike for drivers'? <<
Perhaps when all cyclist do a compulsory 20 miles in Central London in rush hour in an artic we may get a bit of understanding.
Ian came home last night and remarked that the 'summer serious death wish cyclists', as he calls them, are out in the City again as the weather has warmed up.
He's there most days with multidrops and before anyone has a go at me just realise that I worry to death about the odds of him having an accident (and if a death is caused, he will end up with a custodial sentence).
I don't worry when he's in any other part of the country.
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Tue 13 May 14 at 14:41
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Bikes can cars don't mix. There should separate zones for them as much as possible.
That will encourage more people to ride bikes.
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Brompty....Did you know the Jowett man in Bugbrooke ? His name was Bill Lock and he always had a couple of Jowetts in the garden. Made some spares for the club and still does although he moved South after his wife, Sue, died.
I visited a couple of times to take him some surplus stuff of mine when I stayed occasionally at my cousins in Newton, Rugby....just up the A5.
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I knew the name Ted and might have nodded to him in the shop but cannot say I knew him as such. I could place his house though as I saw the cars outside. His neighbour. Colin Nuttal (ex army known as Colonel Nuttal) was active on local footpaths committee of which I was a member for a bit.
Most long termers here have contacts though 'cos of kids (daughter was active in Guides up to going to Uni and lad did football etc) or Mrs B teaching at the senior school.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 13 May 14 at 15:27
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Lived in The Paddocks...just looked it up. Here is the Streetview with a Javelin, a pre-war 8HPunder the tarp and a mint Allegro estate next to the Javelin
www.google.com/maps/@52.210145,-1.011938,3a,75y,165.05h,82.15t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1slmCjzOF2VfHF-TMZTgBM_g!2e0
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>>
>> Lived in The Paddocks...just looked it up. Here is the Streetview with a Javelin, a
>> pre-war 8HPunder the tarp and a mint Allegro estate next to the Javelin
>>
I certainly remember the Allagro being parked up there. Not sure present occupier doesn't have an interesting car too.
When we first moved to village we looked at a house down there. Four bed, double garage job next to Brook. It was a repo and had been empty for some time with asking price of £80k in 1990.
We decided that although we could probably get a loan to cover that it was too much. Wish I'd gone for it now - enough space to keep the caravan at home!
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>> Bikes can cars don't mix. There should separate zones for them as much as possible.
>>
>> That will encourage more people to ride bikes.
>>
>>
>>
That would be fine if, when such facilities are provided, people used them accordingly.
And I'm not referring to cars driving on cycle tracks.
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>> Ian came home last night and remarked that the 'summer serious death wish cyclists', as
>> he calls them, are out in the City again as the weather has warmed up.
Mostly students and seasonal catering etc people I suspect, though a smattering of younger professionals too. A difficult to reach audience unfortunately. They certainly gave me a few heart in mouth moments but proffered advice was not always welcome.
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I think you've hit the nail on the head there Bromp, certainly the all weather ones are more sensible!
Pat
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We've discussed this sort of thing before (on many occasions?) and generally concluded that it all comes down to respect and consideration.
Anyone who has found themselves having to walk along a country lane without a footpath will know that some drivers slow down and give you a wide berth, while others will rush past as though you weren't there, missing you by a yard. It'll be the same folks every time - I guess many of them won't have walked anywhere lately, let alone got on a bike.
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>> rush past as though you weren't there, missing you by a yard.
I'd say a yard was quite considerate for a country lane. Six inches is pretty rude at anything over a crawl.
The fact is too that people have different standards. Some are comfortable jousting as pedestrians with big-city traffic, others are slower-moving and less alert. Those cars that rush past a whole yard away don't necessarily think they are being rude. They are just used to a tighter, more athletic standard of road behaviour.
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"I'd say a yard was quite considerate for a country lane"
When was the last time you stood in a country lane and a car came past a yard away doing 50mph?
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When I'm going that quickly I will cross to the other carriageway. But look, country lanes are tight and one is often doing only 30 or 40. As people have pointed out there's always the option of slowing further... I don't think I scare people these days.
The hard-edged traffic behaviour by everyone, cars, bikes and peds, that I was talking about is really London stuff. Standards are a lot tenser there. I'm sure Bromptonaut knows what I mean.
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>> I'd say a yard was quite considerate for a country lane.
The thing is that most drivers consider a yard to be fair regardless of the road environment - not unusual to see a procession of cars passing a cyclist on an empty road without even troubling the white line.
Fine, so we say a yard is "quite considerate".
Let's take away a foot for the wing mirror. Down to two feet. How about another six inches for the fact that cars are wider since many people learnt to drive? 18 inches.
Hang on, the handlebars on bikes (especially mountain bikes) are now about 6 inches wider than the past. One foot.
And - the most important - humans are useless at judging distances at high speed. Brain isn't wired for it. You only have to sit on a motorway to realise that no one can keep their car central in the lane.
Would you be willing to stand in the road and have cars try to drive exactly three feet from you while you stick your arms out to the side. Oh, and you've got to have your back to traffic, too.
On the bike I now develop a wobble in busy traffic. The wheels track true but I appear drunk, and it's a very reliable way of getting a bit more room while not inconveniencing drivers by sitting in the middle of the road.
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I find a walking pole held to one side tend to make drivers give you a wider berth. Running into a soft squidgy pedestrian is one thing but scratched paintwork is another.
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>> The plan is nothing to do with cycle safety - it is part of Agenda
>> 21.
>> www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=agenda+21&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=x3xyU6-sG4OZ1AWQ_IGgCQ
Conspiracy theory alert!!
Look, the government can't even agree their policy on something straightforward like funding schools. How on earth are they going to organise an agenda like that?
It's cock-up every time!!
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Never ceases to astonish me how stressed some seem to get about using roads. It's just part of modern life however you happen be propelling yourself at the time. It's almost never worth any emotion. Just get on with it in the sure and certain knowledge and anticipation that someone else will inevitably do something stupid or rude without getting het up about it.
Bigger fish to fry usually.
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Possible fines for overtaking cyclists - Bromptonaut
