From the mail.. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2674803/Mother-22-died-85mph-car-crash-driving-toddler-son-modelling-photoshoot-15-days-passing-driving-test.html
>>>PC Paul Standish, a forensic collision investigation officer, who examined the car said: ‘Although the MOT was met, a mixture of tyres, half winter and half budget tyres, and general wear and tear, may have compromised the handling of the car. ‘The tyres were significantly 36 per cent deflated.
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Tragic, tragic.
But was this a BMW Mini or a BL Mini?
I'm a bit suspicious of a car that needs £1200 spent on it to get it through the MOT...
In days even before Gladys Emanuel, drivers had to be able to use a choke control properly during the warm-up phase, not have synchromesh on 1st gear, use unservoed drum brakes and crossply tyres - and not crash.
Nowadays anyone can jump into something with 150hp and assume that the modern radials, ABS, traction control and stability-control will look after them. And they've been brought up on PlayStation games.
I took my stepson onto a large vacant area of an industrial estate on a Sunday to have a little go at driving, in a figure-of-eight: It took him several minutes to learn the clutch control to be able to set off, then he did a few loops. Two or three minutes after that, he was deliberately accelerating on the approach to the turns and then RAGGING the steering wheel round in order to 'try to get the back-end out'...
...Ten minutes from first ever being behind the wheel...
No wonder teenage drivers are such a liability.
I don't know what the solution is. Modern cars have all the safety features to keep you safe, but it does tend to mean that when they DO let go, it's likely to be a big accident. Perhaps there really should be some kind of power/speed restrictor for new drivers for the first year?
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>>
>> I don't know what the solution is. Modern cars have all the safety features to
>> keep you safe, but it does tend to mean that when they DO let go,
>> it's likely to be a big accident. Perhaps there really should be some kind of
>> power/speed restrictor for new drivers for the first year?
>>
>>
I'll agree with that. My old Marina would creek, groan and howl like a banshee long before you reached the point of no return, modern cars go from hero to zero in an instant.
And the computer generation are used to pushing a button to initiate a sequence of events, they start driving without having developed the feel for coaxing something to operate using manual skills.
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My first car, a Wolseley Hornet, would of course do more if asked nicely, but it wasn't very happy much above 50mph, crossply remoulds all round too so not much grip in any direction. In fact all my early cars would now be considered painfully slow by today's standards.
Probably no bad thing until you get a feel for it all. If I had been in charge of a modern Mini Cooper a fortnight after I passed my test I'm sure I might have found it a bit much to handle. Or, if not, I might have been tempted to believe I could handle it...
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>> I'm a bit suspicious of a car that needs £1200 spent on it to get
>> it through the MOT...
>>
I thought the same, and it had that work AFTER the long trip to Cambridge.
>> Nowadays anyone can jump into something with 150hp and assume that the modern radials, ABS,
>> traction control and stability-control will look after them.
I wonder if that car would have had ESP - I don't think it's even standard on all new cars now (if they've been in production for a while), but it is on all newly introduced models. MINI could well have always fitted ESP, I don't know.
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>> But was this a BMW Mini or a BL Mini?
It says BMW mini a couple of times in the article
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So it does! Strange, I don't remember that from yesterday. I think that's what made me so puzzled - that a BMW Mini would need £1200 spent on it to pass the MOT. Maybe BMW parts are even more expensive than I thought..
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>> So it does! Strange, I don't remember that from yesterday. I think that's what made
>> me so puzzled - that a BMW Mini would need £1200 spent on it to
>> pass the MOT. Maybe BMW parts are even more expensive than I thought..
The oldest MINI will now be 13 years old so plenty scope for worn bushings/shot shocks etc. Doesn't take long at dealer rates (or those of a specialist) to knock up a bill of £1k.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 1 Jul 14 at 10:09
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I have just seen a dealer estimate (big dealer group, does a lot of used as well as franchises) of £1800 for MoT work on an 8 year old Peugeot 307 IIRC.
It was given to the chap who looks after our cars who says it would be c. £600 if he does it all.
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Yep and it's not just the main dealers. Late teens girl just down the road bought a £1500 Clio as her first car with 6mths MOT remaining. After the 6mths she put it in for a test and the bill she paid at a local indy was just short of £1000 for MOT/Service/tyres/clutch/suspension bits.
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>>a mixture of tyres, half winter and half budget tyres, and general wear and tear, may
>>have compromised the handling of the car.
>
>>‘The tyres were significantly 36 per cent deflated and in the circumstances it is possible
>>that as Georgina managed the left hand corner she under steered.
>
>>‘A combination of an excess of the speed limit and maintenance of the car and a lack of
>>motorway driving experience may have led to this tragic accident.’
I'm sure they're correct somewhere in there, but that's a bit of a shotgun blast of possible reasons which "may" have had some effect....
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A friend of ours had a Mini estate ( can't remember what they call them ) anyway, they had trouble with the tyres failing to keep pressure...
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>>>shotgun blast of possible reasons which "may" have had some effect....
I'm sure they had a big effect on a curve at possibly 80+.
36% under on the tyres means perhaps 21psi not mid 30s... that would have a big effect... particularly if just the rears were soft.
I agree that "our" generation who had the experience of dreadful handling is perhaps better equipped to cope with driving modern cars quickly. However if my daughters had the choice now of driving my 1960s Herald or an airbag/stability control/ABS equipped mid 2000s car I'd see them in the modern one every time.
And as my experience of stability control grows I think it will save more lives than it takes which is what the stats are showing. My 525 for example is so fail safe it's close to boring.
But really I was saddened as that girl was little older than my eldest and had she had someone like me as her Dad she may well be alive today.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Mon 30 Jun 14 at 18:41
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Front wheel drive, inexperienced driver, speed, dodgy tyres or dodgy tyre combination.
Throttle off or brake around a corner = oversteer, exacerbated if road is wet.
That's why she died.
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I agree with your assessment WP.
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Of course no untuned original Mini could do 85.
What a sad story, poor girl, no sense of priorities, rough badly maintained motor, obviously appalling driving role models, recipe for disaster really.
It's awful to me that things like that can happen. She didn't know a single person who could straighten her out about cars, or anyway try to! Unbelievable, and makes your blood run cold.
Girls can be wild, don't I know it... but it's hard not to look askance at the dad and the partner.
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>> Front wheel drive, inexperienced driver, speed, dodgy tyres or dodgy tyre combination.
>>
>> Throttle off or brake around a corner = oversteer, exacerbated if road is wet.
>>
I'd lay odds the winter tyres were on the front - to most people it seems the logical place to put them on a FWD car - and the budget tyres on the back.
Few people realise just how dodgy a set-up that is.
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I think the lack of air in the tyres and excessive speed were probably bigger causes than the mix of tyre type.
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>> I think the lack of air in the tyres and excessive speed were probably bigger
>> causes than the mix of tyre type.
>>
I strongly think that a number of the crashes that young lads have where the car just spins off the road for no apparent reason are caused by having grippier tyres on the front. There are any number of videos on YouTube showing it at quite low speeds.
You can't tell 'em - they think they can use FWD to "drive through" any skid. I guess it doesn't happen so much with girls as they're usually that bit more cautious.
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It's surprising how low a modern tyre's pressure can be before it 'looks' flat.
Last weekend I had a slight suspicion about the o/s rear on Mrs B's Berlingo. Not even nearly flat but just a tad unusually bulgy in sidewall. On checking it was around 1.6 bar and should have been 2.4.
Re-inflated at nearest air pump and on 24hr watch until I could get it to garage.
Turned out to have a nail in it but only found after removal from rim. Now repaired and back on road.
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Interesting, if not more than a little concerning if you read the public feedback comments, no one I can see makes any reference to the low tyre pressures.
I know for sure that many people of my acquaintance never check them relying instead on them being set when tyres are fitted or when a car is serviced.
Anyone who actually uses their own ( accurate ) pressure gauge will know that tyre fitters never set them correctly and that a year or more between a garage checking them is way too long.
If the driver was too inexperienced or unconcerned to check them it does seem sad indeed that it appears no one of her acquaintance thought to remind her or in fact just do it themselves.
Too late of course to help this poor girl but you would hope that it triggers some readers of the sad tale to check their own and their loved ones cars. I wouldn't hold my breath in anticipation though.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Mon 30 Jun 14 at 22:09
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Now there's something you don't see everyday, measuring car tyre pressures in bar.
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Now y'see I've always used bar pressure measurements. Don't know why. I measure things in metres too. Don't know why I do that either. Tread depth in mm as well.
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Oh I'm quite familar with bar, I use it everyday for pressures into the hundreds of bar. Just unusual (to me) to hear people talking of car tyre pressure in bar, nearly always psi. Which I always use for car tyre pressures, psi that is.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Mon 30 Jun 14 at 22:15
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The précis of your last post in the margin would lead the unsuspecting to believe you have an alcohol problem !
"Oh I'm quite familiar with bar, I use it everyday... "
;-)
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Mon 30 Jun 14 at 22:20
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Nothing wrong with a stiffner everyday, after all the sun is past the yard arm at some point around the world all the time. Just ask AC ;-)
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Can't I'm afraid, he'll be well away by now...
;-)
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>> Can't I'm afraid, he'll be well away by now...
>>
>> ;-)
What? Off with the fairies?
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Maybe, I think he's tried most things at least once.
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>> Now there's something you don't see everyday, measuring car tyre pressures in bar.
They're in bar in the handbook and on the stickers on the doorpost. As my gauge shows bar there's no need to convert. I'm sure most people don't check them regularly and freely admit to not doing so myself even though oil/coolant etc observations are a weekly item.
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Now you see I check all our car tyres and all our bike tyres every week. Sad but true. Wouldn't count it as a hobby or anything. Just a habit.
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Now I come to think of it, I check the car tyre pressures in bar and the bikes in psi. I've never been concerned by or particularly aware of that before. Going to bug me now.
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...car tyre pressures in bar...bikes in psi...Going to bug me now.
Don't let it. They're just numbers really, like the settings on my coffee grinder. You don't have to calculate anything from them (unless you're NC and he's not here) so you just need a value to remember.
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I do try to, manage it most weeks on the cars along with all the under bonnet stuff.
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I'm a bit crap at keeping the cars clean but oil, water, screen wash, bulbs and tyres are never neglected.
My neighbour seems to be the opposite. Forever washing his cars but I've never seen him lift the bonnet.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Mon 30 Jun 14 at 22:46
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Yeah I'm the same with the cleaning. I've no garage or drive have to park on the road under some trees. Naturally it seems to have bird muck on it all the time, I can't get too worked up about it though. Under bonnet stuff though different matter come sunday afternoon.
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I'm not good at putting it through car washes or entrusting it to Rumanians either, basically it gets washed by the garage when it's in for a service or by me if there's an equinox or a solstice in the month.
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'washed by the garage when it's in for a service' Both cars are home serviced, no chance of such main dealer luxury ;-) I think it's been 10 years since any car I've had set foot in a main dealer.
Been to the E Europeans for a wash a couple of times, not too bad. But I'm not super fussy.
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I swim most nights so if the windows, door mirrors, lights and number plates get too grubby I give them a wipe over in the leisure club car park with my damp swim shorts when I come out. The shorts get cleaned up the next night when I go for a swim. Kinda works for me.
Annoys her though. Especially if I dry them off with my swimming towel. She has a thing about that. Not sure why. I see it as recycling.
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I believe you have a french car? I'm surprised it's not in Kpa just to be even more different.
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New driver pulling an estimated 85 MPH on the Motorway in a car that despite having a wad spent on it was to all intents and purposes unroadworthy = total recipe for disaster.
Perhaps an unsuitable car for a new driver in respect of it being a fashion accessory and perhaps in hindsight bought cheap because of it's overall condition but still a Mini. I doubt whether insurance would be at the lower end of the scale either but she got her Mini.
One of Fullchat juniors at 17 recently passed first time and completed Pass + at my insistence. Capable yes, experienced absolutely no way and she knows her limitations. But she will build up her experience slowly.
Already costing me £120 to sort out someones car where she has pulled out of a parking place and "kissed" the rear bumper. T cut sorted hers out.:(
Anyway it is an absolute tragedy.
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>> Already costing me £120 to sort out someones car where she has pulled out of
>> a parking place and "kissed" the rear bumper.
Doesn't she have any money of her own?
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>> Now there's something you don't see everyday, measuring car tyre pressures in bar.
>>
On one of the cars in our family, I think it's the VW, they pressures are only given in bar.
I've seen several reports of people confusing bar and psi - 2.0 bar in the Golf and the tyres being inflated to 20PSI.
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Did I notice my handle being taken in vain higher up? I thought I had stated a clear, rational position even higher up.
I repeat: the tragedy is the absence of a competent person to get the car in order if possible, otherwise make sure it didn't get bought in the first place. And I repeat, I would tend to look askance at the dad and the so-called partner.
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Why are her female relatives excused? Anyone who uses a car has a duty to keep the basic maintenance up to date. My driving test (1988) included questions on this stuff; does it still?
It's not - or has no right to be - a male-female thing. We no longer tolerate the idea that cooking, housework and child care are things 'you need a woman for'; there's nothing about a car that a woman can't learn to manage. The symbol for equality is symmetrical.
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I believe there is a underbonnet bit to the driving test, identifying the dip stick etc. Saw neighbours son get instructed on this.
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>> identifying the dip stick etc. Saw neighbours son
That's not a very nice way to describe him ;)
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That's not a very nice way to describe him ;)
Grrr, he's a nice lad, cuts my hedge etc.
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>> I believe there is a underbonnet bit to the driving test, identifying the dip stick
>> etc. Saw neighbours son get instructed on this.
Still there. Both my kids, who've passed tests in last five years had to do it. Daughter's just recently 'gone solo' in her boyfriend's Pug 107 but had me check levels etc before a recent long journey.
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Well said WdeB, a liberated man at last.
Pat
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Yeah, right...
I can see men doing some cooking and cleaning and ironing and childcare - but how many of you's wives are actually left completely to their own accord to check their car's oil / coolant / brake fluid / tyres etc, and would attempt to change to the spare wheel on entirely on their own when some miles from home?
Very few, I'd suspect..
;-)
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I remember trying to teach changing a wheel to my mother. Although the act itself was a failure, pointing out to her that she had to know where the stuff was and how it should be used was accepted.
She has now stopped driving due to eyesight problems but the only time a car of hers broke, I was driving and my father was rather grateful I was. Brake failure is not to be sneezed at.
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It's the gender thing I fail to understand.
Mail or female surely car ownership should come with the responsibility to look after it and understand how it works?
Again, surely parents of both genders who allow their children to become car owners and don't make them do their own basic maintenance are nurturing a generation who never will understand a motorised vehicle.
It's the same sort of situation we encountered the other day down a very narrow country lane where we came across a young female driver who had past a test but couldn't reverse her car in a straight line for more than 10 feet. She caused a traffic jam of at least a half a mile in both directions but everyone refused to do it for her (despite her tears)....how will she ever learn if that happens?
Having said that the driving test should cover both basic maintenance, motorway driving, skid pan and reversing more thoroughly.
Pat
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>>>It's the gender thing I fail to understand.
Well just look around you at the lives people of both sexes live.
The reality is most women are still not interested in the oily bits and there should be no issue with the guys that understand such things, and care about them, filling the gaps.
Having said that as I mentioned above my perception is guys are getting a bit useless too. Last week eldest daughter was acting in a 19yr old media student lad's terrorist film being made locally after dark. He did a scene with his car headlamps on full beam over a long period of time and the battery went flat. He had no concept of a bump start (yes I know not ideal for CAT and voltage might have been to low for ECU anyway) or any other starting method... a far as he was concerned it just "wouldn't go".
Left it where it was and the next morning a teen girl came round with her car and jump started for him... with the jump leads her dad had equipped her with when she got her car of course.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Tue 1 Jul 14 at 11:59
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>>The reality is most women are still not interested in the oily bits and there should be no issue with the guys that understand such things, and care about them, filling the gaps.
<<
You seem to have completely missed my point Fenlander!
As far as I'm concerned car ownership comes with a responsibility, not a choice, of what if any, oily bits the owner may be interested in.
It's an obligation to maintain it safely and one we should all encourage the OWNER/DRIVER to do whatever the age or gender.
Pat
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>> we should all encourage the OWNER/DRIVER to do whatever the age or gender.
However encouraging one is, the pathetic sight of a girl with her hair hanging down into the works and a tiny smudge of oil on her lily-white right paw, staring aghast at the thick layer of oil and road dirt all over a steaming, puzzling, terrifyingly incomprehensible mass of metal and wires and stuff, will melt a heart of stone. Especially a heart that doesn't want to see the girlie dead or maimed and doesn't want to have to pay for another car.
Evidently from what others say much the same applies to gormless boys. As one would expect. The competent person still has a duty of care to pretty well anyone less competent (he boomed sententiously).
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>>It's an obligation to maintain it safely
Surely, "It's an obligation to ENSURE IT IS maintainED safely"?
My wife has no interest in anything to do with the car other than driving it and reporting when it "sounds wrong". However, she is not lazy, nor adopting a "girlie" role, nor particularly worried about getting mucky. She doesn't like messing with cars and knows that they interest me.
I don't really see the issue.
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>> she is not lazy, nor adopting a "girlie" role, nor particularly worried about getting mucky.
Nor mine, far from it. But there's a big difference between earth from the garden and a whole lot of filth from the outside of an old engine in nails and cuticles. No lady wants that, and herself is certainly one of those without making a song and dance about it.
There are two other problems. One is an unfamiliarity with the components under the bonnet, so that it all looks a meaningless tangle. The other is a matter of coordination and wrist strength. Herself understands that an airline has to be pressed onto a tyre valve at the correct angle and held there while the tyre is inflating, but she finds it so stressful trying to do it that it's cruel to make her try. As well as counter-productive, if she's going to let air out of the tyre while mucking about with the airline. It's easy to do.
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>>But there's a big difference between earth from the garden and a whole lot of filth from the outside of an old engine in nails and cuticles.
>>No lady wants that, and herself is certainly one of those..
>>
I thought one must wear surgeons gloves these days?
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>>
>>Herself understands that an airline has to be pressed onto a tyre valve at the correct angle and held there while the tyre is inflating, but she finds it so stressful trying to do it that it's cruel to make her try.
>> if she's going to let air out of the tyre while mucking about with the airline. It's easy to do.
>>
I have a Ring brand electric pump.
Plug it in the cigar socket, SCREW it on the valve, press GO and it inflates to the dialled in pressure and then switches off..
If you have a wagon that has different pressures front and back, set it to the higher pressure , then either switch off early or my unit has a little round knob on the tube to allow deflation.
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My wife has a single tool which she expects, rightly so it appears, will resolve all issues whether or not urgent, immediately.
A cell phone with my number and that of the local garage. And woe betide me if she has to ring the local garage.
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>>>You seem to have completely missed my point Fenlander!
>>>As far as I'm concerned car ownership comes with a responsibility... It's an obligation to >>>maintain it safely and one we should all encourage the OWNER/DRIVER to do whatever >>>the age or gender.
Oh by all means encourage... as I'm doing this very minute as my daughter is going through Autotrader to find her own car this week and we discuss the potential maintenance consequences of the various car makes/types/ages/mileages/prices.
But be realistic that in every village/town/city there will be a huge proportion of the female population, as well as a proportion of the guys too, who will never check a tyre pressure or oil level in their lives.
And those we should help... as AC has put it... and in a rather nicely written piece.
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>>And those we should help... as AC has put it... and in a rather nicely written piece<<
Now there's where we differ!
It should be a part of the driving lesson course as well as being tested, to have a basic knowledge of car mechanics and walk round checks. Perhaps we wouldn't see so many with only one headlight or no brake lights then. Every driver should be able to change a wheel in an emergency...it comes with the privilege of having a car to drive instead of using shank's pony, surely?
Are we doing young drivers a favour helping them? I don't think so, a broken nail will regrow, mucky hands will wash and surely lessons will be learned.
Pat
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Pat, does it matter who does it, provided it is done?
And one needs no car knowledge at all to know if a headlight is working or not. That's a matter of being awake, which is a difficulty far beyond that of a driving test.
However, how we teach parents to ensure that *someone* takes responsibility, I have no idea.
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Is there perhaps a generation thing wrapped up in all this too though? Certainly my early cars absolutely required more ongoing basic maintenance than most modern ones.
Many burned oil at an alarming rate so woe betide you if you didn't keep a check on it. Crossply remoulds wore out very quickly so again you had to keep an eye on them. Radiators or their hoses leaked and likewise it was necessary to keep them topped up. Spark plugs needed re-gapping, points re-setting, carbs re-tuning, batteries topping up, bulbs failed regularly and needed to be replaced, electrical connections worked loose, fuses blew, locks jammed, rust pervaded and was patched up with filler etc etc
Anyone who owned an old car and was on a tight-ish budget had to make do and mend or walk.
Now that even a 10 year old car is often quite capable of working perfectly well with minimal maintenance ( of the amateur variety ) for extended periods there is just less incentive to learn or appreciate the advantages of learning how to carry out the basic jobs personally.
The things which tend to immobilise modern cars would seem to be mainly beyond the scope of the untrained enthusiast and therefore mostly people won't even attempt to fix them on their own.
When I was at school someone had donated an old Triumph Herald to the purpose of each year group of 16 year olds dismantling it and re-assembling it to the point of it being roadworthy again.
I fear it wouldn't be allowed now due to risk of injury or exposure to carcinogens or something, unless everyone was issued with the ubiquitous hi-viz vest, a pollution mask, protective gloves and safety glasses. And only then if it could be proven it would not offend any minorities.
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We've been here before, but a large number of cars aren't really maintained at all, they are just repaired when they break down, or at best given some oil when a light comes on.
Not just the young or female either. My uncle, a highly intelligent and generally sensible 84 with little interest in things mechanical, set off a couple of weeks ago on a 200 mile journey. The 'oil light' (pressure, not level) was on intermittently. He didn't have much oil, so he put in what he had and set off.
I met him at the other end. The light had "just started blinking" again. It took over 3 litres to get it showing on the dipstick.
To be fair, unc. does have an annual service - but he had got into the habit of relying on that after finding he used very little oil in the past (before the car was 11 years old with 115,000 miles).
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>> there's where we differ!
>> It should be a part of the driving lesson course as well as being tested, to have a basic knowledge of car mechanics and walk round checks.
Pat, you are a professional trucker, an unusual profession for a woman, and like the lady van driver who delivers my oxygen sometimes you are physically stronger than most of the women one meets.
The thought of herself or one of my daughters (apart from the youngest who's been to Alice Springs in an old VW) trying to change a wheel on a grass verge on a rainy night using the car's awful tottering little jack, with commuters haring past six inches away, is terrifying. I can actually do it but it scares the bejasus out of me.
It's never a simple mechanical operation. There are quite complex and subtle things to take into account. It comes more or less naturally to you and me, but to the seriously ignorant there's a threat of actual injury, perhaps serious injury.
That's why the competent should try to look after the less competent. I bet you agree really.
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>>but to the seriously ignorant there's a threat of actual injury<<
Now you have it AC, in my ideal world after passing a driving test there would be no 'seriously ignorant'. I'm not saying they should always have to do it themselves, but just now how to do it should they have to. Protecting the next generation from dangers and pitfalls mean they don't even look for them, or consider them.
>>That's why the competent should try to look after the less competent. I bet you agree really<<
Actually I don't.
If you had said less able, I would have agreed wholeheartedly but there is no earthly reason why anyone isn't competent given time and guidance. If you haven't the strength you develop technique just as if you have no-one to do it for you, you find a way.
I agree with FMR regarding being awake but half the cars with lights out are because the driver never bothers to check them. That is so wrong.
In the original post, or at least one of the early ones, it was mentioned about mixing winter and summer tyres.....I'd like to bet 50% of all drivers on the road have never heard of the difference, never mind the different driving styles needed to accommodate them.
Now how many youngsters buy a second hand car and would know if there was a lethal mix of tyres on it?
Dad will check them, I hear you all say. How about those with an absent Dad?
It's all about going back to basics and making the test harder but thorough and teaching some sympathy for that engine we all hear being revved to the limit with a slipping clutch every time they have to go out of their comfort zone.
Pat
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I don't know why you're going on at me Pat. Unless you are taking me to task for conflating 'competent' with 'able'. That seems the only fundamental point on which we might be said to have differed, purely by accident though. Sheesh!
Knowing how to do something might tempt an inexperienced person to risk their foot or arm trying it in difficult, dangerous circumstances. Any idiot can see that.
And you don't take the point about emergency car jacks on soggy ground. If you don't know how to do it from long experience, don't even try.
Stubborn old flying witch aren't you? Sorry, not old. Ouch!
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>>Stubborn old flying witch aren't you?<<
Yes:)
>>I don't know why you're going on at me Pat.<<
I wouldn't dream of going on at you AC:)
I'm still shocked by the female who blocked the road and caused chaos, resorted to tears, and then pleaded for someone to reverse her car for her. She wasn't under 30 either.
Grow some balls woman!!!
Pat
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>>
>> It's all about going back to basics and making the test harder but thorough and
>> teaching some sympathy for that engine we all hear being revved to the limit with
>> a slipping clutch every time they have to go out of their comfort zone.
>>
>> Pat
>>
>>
Everyone wants the test made harder - but only after they've passed it themselves.
As if tuition or the test has any bearing whatsoever on how a driver will behave once they develop their own driving skills. It is designed with it's only possible purpose in mind, to ensure you're initially safe enough to go out on your own and gain the experience needed.
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>>half the cars with lights out are because the driver never bothers to check them
I agree, and that's really the trouble. You don't need to know how to fix a light, but you do need to be awake enough to check that the lights are working and get it fixed if you can;t do it yourself.
The only way I can think of to bring that awareness is to have more traffic police. Because if your chances of being pulled over are high, then you become aware.
When I used to drive into town as a youngster, I might have been breaking a lot of laws, but none that you could see with the naked eye at a range of 50 yards.
Because there used to be eyes around.
Of course, this drives many more people to learn how to do it.
These days I don't know how else it can be approached.
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By and large, I know how my cars and bicycles work and can and do keep a check on their basic functions and can and do rectify them as required. Therefore I am admittedly intolerant of those who either don't, can't or won't do so.
Then of course I recognise my own hypocrisy. I have no idea how my computers or mobile phones work and wouldn't have the faintest clue how to fix them if they weren't working. And yet I use them almost as much as my car.
Some might argue that the failure of my computer is unlikely to put my or anyone else's life in danger of course.
That might be the comforting difference from my point of view, but it perhaps illustrates the attitudinal difference between me and someone who sees their car as a white goods transport solution or indeed fashion accessory as opposed to a vital component in enabling my daily life activities.
I would be devastated if the personal car was dis-invented, but if personal computers and mobile phones were, I reckon I'd learn to live without them fairly quickly again and might even embrace the notion.
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>half the cars with lights out are because the driver never bothers to check them
>> >>half the cars with lights out are because the driver never bothers to check them
>>
>> I agree, and that's really the trouble. You don't need to know how to fix
>> a light, but you do need to be awake enough to check that the lights
>> are working and get it fixed if you can;t do it yourself.
>>
>> The only way I can think of to bring that awareness is to have more traffic police.
>>My 98 Mondeo has a little display that lights up each time the ignition is switched on and shows if a bulb has failed. The same display doubles up and will also will show if any doors or the boot lid are not closed.
I think it is "KISS" rather than a LCD display of words in my X Type that can only show one problem at a time..
There is progress for you.
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I usually spot a missing bulb in the reflection on someone else's car.
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>> >>My 98 Mondeo has a little display that lights up each time the ignition is
>> switched on and shows if a bulb has failed. The same display doubles up and
>> will also will show if any doors or the boot lid are not closed.
>> I think it is "KISS" rather than a LCD display of words in my X
>> Type that can only show one problem at a time..
>> There is progress for you.
>>
Yes I remember similar set ups on cars from the 90s. Rover had one, told you exactly which light was out.
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I remember as a pedestrian politely telling a lady driver she had a light out. She listened, and did nothing, I regularly saw the car and it was months before all the bulbs worked. I assume it was serviced or MOTed.
My brother though noticed a bulb was out visiting me, and after borrowing a bulb from me (I've got spares of rather a lot of things), two minutes later had a full working set again.
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>> My brother though noticed a bulb was out visiting me, and after borrowing a bulb
>> from me (I've got spares of rather a lot of things), two minutes later had
>> a full working set again.
Moving Miss B and her b/f to new home at weekend involved a rendezvous at Frankley services to save his Dad 2 hours extra driving on the hired van dropping me back to Northampton.
During turnaround I spotted an indicatorlight out on my Berlingo.
Bulb from spares kit fitted while others were visiting the toilets!
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>> My brother though noticed a bulb was out visiting me, and after borrowing a bulb
>> from me (I've got spares of rather a lot of things), two minutes later had
>> a full working set again.
>>
I have always created my own spare bulb kit because I have found errors in the databases that bulb suppliers use. I thus ensure I have all the correct bulbs plus some fuses and a fuse puller. My Mondeo has some big square fuses ( 50A ? ) that are not available at filling stations.
I created a kit for my daughters Yaris. Of course it has not been required after several years.
I was pleased I did as the headlamp bulbs are push fit types and I have yet to see any of those in a filling station shop.
The EU could do something useful and mandate that all front and rear bulbs must be accessible and easily changeable without tools. Fat chance!
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>> I have always created my own spare bulb kit
I don't have trouble getting the bulbs from the motor factor, it's changing them that's the trouble. Grovelling around on one's knees with filthy, disintegrating plastic lids in the front wing liners I ask you. They don't make it easy.
There are reversing and fog lights inside the back bumper. Both the glasses are broken and the reflectors are rusty and useless, but the bulbs still go on when they are supposed to. So that's not really all right then.
:o}
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Some car designers need shooting.
Judging from what one sees on some vehicles a cars' lights are a styling tool and nothing to do with lighting the road, and the lights being seen. Changing bulbs, perhaps some cars are made deliberately more difficult to hand garages work.
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That's why the competent should try to look after the less competent. I bet you agree really.
In the immediate situation of someone we care about and/or are responsible for, yes of course. But in the longer term we do people no favours with persistent mollycoddling; they become either cluelessly dependent or, worse, wilfully ignorant, knowing that there'll always be someone else to redeem them.
My parents - despite sending me to a school that must have supposed I'd grow up to have servants to tie my shoelaces, so little attention did it pay to practical skills - made me do things for myself to the extent that I left home equipped to keep myself fed, my home and clothes clean and the machines I relied on operating satisfactorily. I had to learn about computers for myself, but they're now in the 'rely on' category for my children, along with the cooker and the washing machine.
This isn't about making everyone competent to do everything, but rather about being able to do the basics and to know when it's time to call in an expert. So I can fit a new ceiling light but wouldn't attempt a cooker fitting or consumer unit. I can change a wheel on a safe, level surface but probably wouldn't attempt it on a hard shoulder. (Never had to decide, fortunately.) And if something doesn't work, I can go through the simple steps of problem determination, which Mrs Beest (who would rather curse the darkness than change a lightbulb) treats as if it was a magical power.
I'm no mechanical, electrical or computer genius, but that's my point: anyone, female or male, can acquire the skills and knowledge to survive in the modern world. Anyone who doesn't is doomed to be an eternal passenger, and who wants to be one of those?
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>> It should be a part of the driving lesson course as well as being tested,
>> to have a basic knowledge of car mechanics and walk round checks. Perhaps we wouldn't
>> see so many with only one headlight or no brake lights then. Every driver should
>> be able to change a wheel in an emergency...it comes with the privilege of having
>> a car to drive instead of using shank's pony, surely?
>>
With the size and weight of some spare wheels it is quite difficult for many, especially older folk to change a wheel. would you trust that wheel nuts are correctly torqued ?
I recently had to make a mechanically adept friend aware of a "possible" way of freeing his road wheel after he had attacked it with a lump hammer. OAPs please remember that method.
The reality is that cars are "white goods" for many and treated as such.
I think that better/ more sensors should be fitted - like my old Mondeo has.
Tyre pressure monitors a must.
Perhaps the all seeing computer could log when a light fails and this evidence used to decide that the driver has ignored it for a year?
Maybe annoying warning sounds that need to be regularly cancelled might help?
How many folks know now to properly check slush box ATF levels or top them up.
A fraction of a percent is my guess.
Things have moved on rapidly and the whole scene needs to be reviewed with an open mind.
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I took the bathroom scales to the Defender 90 wheels. Roughly seven and half stone and one of the ladies I worked with at the time weighed less!
Lifting the wheel up and onto the rear door fixing is seriously hard work. Changing a wheel when both a on the ground though is not too bad, one just has to sit down and be a human monkey and lift the wheel into place with ones feet.
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Please don't think I'm getting at you slidingpillar, I'm not but a couple of years into my lorry driving career I had a slow (fast slow!) puncture in Fine Fare's depot at Aylesford. I had a Volvo F10 unit with a tag axle.
I got tipped and asked to use the phone to ring my boss in Cambridgeshire and let him know I was stuck. I was told in no uncertain terms to change the front wheel with one from the tag axle and lift the tag axle to run back home to base.
I was told there was a jack, a crowbar and a length of pipe to put on the wheel brace so I could jump on it, under the bunk. I did manage it by rolling the wheels and crowbarring it onto the studs after lining them up carefully. I jumped on every wheel nut as hard as I could but I'm 5' 2'' and weighed 10 stone at that time.
I knew I would lose my job if I hadn't done it and that was enough for me to get stuck in and find a way.
Now, I'm not suggesting by any means that every female or male should be able to do this but surely you can see how it makes me feel when people claim they can't/won't do any basic maintenance on a car such as checking tyre pressures?
The tyre size by the way was 12 R22.5 and interchangeable on front and tag axle.
Pat
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Pat - it's fine, I don't see it as criticism at all. To be a numpty on cars seems to be fashionable these days.
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>> Pat - it's fine, I don't see it as criticism at all. To be a
>> numpty on cars seems to be fashionable these days.
Just as some people seem to take pride in being carp at sums.
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>> Well said WdeB, a liberated man at last.
Raspberry to both of you. I said 'competent person' and that I am 'inclined' to look askance at th dad and the partner, to avoid any suspicion of sexism. Because I knew some smartass would say something like that.
If anyone came here and asked herself, or any female, for car advice they would get a blank look. From most of the men and boys too.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 1 Jul 14 at 11:19
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>>>there's nothing about a car that a woman can't learn to manage. The symbol for equality is symmetrical.
Oh true in theory but (as Enderman hints above) from the stats in my contact circle of girls/women from 17 to 70 in general the women are far far less likely to take the time or interest in something as "mundane" as tyre pressures.
Accepting that as fact I'm very happy to be that "old fashioned" guy who looks after all the basics of cars within my responsibility and also who will point out a soft tyre or offer to do underbonnet checks when a lone female is visiting here.
What is perhaps more worrying is the young lads I come into contact with seem to be going a bit "female" about any car interest too. We had 6 late teens/early twenties lads staying here over the weekend and not one had the slightest interest in the workings of a car other than its ability to transport.
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>> Oh true in theory but (as Enderman hints above) from the stats in my contact
>> circle of girls/women from 17 to 70 in general the women are far far less
>> likely to take the time or interest in something as "mundane" as tyre pressures.
>>
I think it's even worse than that - females just think you're being a bit stupid doing things like checking tyre pressures and oil levels. In their busy lives they haven't got time to wait around while you mess about.
>> What is perhaps more worrying is the young lads I come into contact with seem
>> to be going a bit "female" about any car interest too. We had 6 late
>> teens/early twenties lads staying here over the weekend and not one had the slightest interest
>> in the workings of a car other than its ability to transport.
>>
Both my son-in-laws are completely clueless about all things mechanical, and even computers. At least one (who is a teacher) knows his limits. The other thought the service reminder spanner illuminating meant the car needed oil.
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I keep looking at my car guiltily as I haven't checked the tyre pressures for a month or so. That said, it hasn't been above 30mph for that period, it hasn't been out of the congestion zone by more than a couple of hundred yards - but I'll always check before going on a long journey.
Oil and coolant, well I might check them a handful of times a year.
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Oddly I've just returned from looking at a 2003 Punto in a dealers... with winter tyres on the rear and Chinese on the front. Because they had a few miles left in them the guy seemed quite insulted when I said they'd be replaced immediately before daughter would be using it.
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Tyres are important - Tragic crash. - Enderman
