Reading these types of car forums ( fora? Pfori? ) you inevitably encounter posts which state something along the lines of, "I will never buy a car from X brand again, I bought one 20 years ago and it was rubbish, the dealer was rubbish, the salesman was rubbish, the service manager was worse etc etc"
Indeed I have a similar prejudice against a certain French brand myself for reasons now more than 12 years out of date.
The rational part of me recognises that whoever designed the car I had a bad experience with is probably now retired or dead, the factory it was made in has probably been closed, is under completely new management or completely re-equipped, the assembly line workers who failed to screw it together properly are also probably deceased having forgotten to eat, the suppliers of hooky parts for it have also prob'ly gone west, etc etc ( you see what I mean ? )
I was reminded to look in my own life mirror today when a chance conversation about a disappointing footwear purchase arose over the garden fence. My neighbour was asking for advice on a new shoe purchase and when I suggested a particular brand he almost threw his arms in the air in horror at the thought, having apparently bought one of their products a couple of decades ago and not enjoyed the resulting experience.
When I explained that the company in question had changed hands twice, that the factories it used were about as far across the globe from the one they would have made his shoes in, that the design, development, manufacturing and sales conduit the new shoes would arrive at his feet by would bear no relation whatsoever to the offending items of half a lifetime ago, I was met with a glazed expression and a firm and unshakable affirmation that he would never buy another pair of "their" shoes.
Such is the damage one bad experience can have on a brand even when the customer may have had several good ones.
This intrigued me by the way. It analyses why we remember bad experiences much more than good ones. science.howstuffworks.com/life/remember-bad-times-better-than-good.htm
So next time you say, or hear someone say, I shall never buy another VAG, Ford, GM, Renault or whatever whatever, remind yourself that all your reasoning might be just a rejection of a badge as opposed to anything which even vaguely resembles or has any commercial DNA which bears any discernible relationship to the product or service you were once disappointed by.
I shan't be buying another Renault mind ! No way !
;-)
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I must admit, I'll never buy a Champion spark plug again after buying a pack of four, where all four were defective.
Likewise, I'll never buy another Vauxhall product as I did once and it was the worst car I've ever owned and the dealers have to be threatened with GBH before they'll talk to Vauxhall. In both cases where this arose, Vauxhall knew the answer, the repair was covered by the new car warranty and didn't take that long to do either.
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There are lots of forged or counterfeit components sold at fat prices. Caveat emptor, but it isn't simple and life's often too short.
New cars always cause trouble. Better to buy whatever seems a good idea at the time and go with the flow. More relaxing, cheaper as often as not, and more fun with a bit of luck.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 1 Jul 14 at 20:36
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With me, it's how annoyed they make me.
If the company in question can get me rigged up enough, it matters not how good their product might become in the future, I'm not spending my money on it.
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>> it matters not how good their product might become in the future, I'm not spending my money on it.
Even if, hypothetically for example, that company may now be owned or managed by completely different people and their goods or services provided by completely different staff ?
I can think of several very well known brands in my industry where that would apply. Household names but where the only relationship with previous production and management, indeed even the continent of origin, is the label.
I do get why people might feel that way, after all, the brand name and it's perceived values are the only thing they really think they know about a product but so often, particularly in the modern world, it means very little in reality.
For example I could show you two different brands of trainers ( I won't name them for very obvious reasons but trust me on this one ) one brand is selling theirs for over £100 and getting it easily due to their massive marketing spend, the other is selling theirs for £30 a would struggle to get more because of that brand's perceived value.
Both products are made from identical raw materials on the same production line by the same factory operatives to the same technical and quality standards. They both cost exactly the same at the factory gate and differ only in terms of cosmetic badging and trim detail.
However, because one brand has a reputation for quality and serious sports technical performance and the other is seen as a bit old fashioned and downmarket, the price the two products can command is vastly different by a factor of more than 3 times the perceived value at the till.
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>
>>
>> I do get why people might feel that way, after all, the brand name and
>> it's perceived values are the only thing they really think they know about a product
I think that's it. People don't really know anything but the label. In 5 years it could have totally changed management, staff, factory or even country or could be exactly the same set up, but if unless you're in the industry how is one to know that?
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>> For example I could show you two different brands of trainers ( I won't name
>> them for very obvious reasons but trust me on this one )
Oh go on ;-)
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I could tell some tales for sure. Some might even be quite interesting and perhaps surprising/disappointing/pleasing to some. But I won't. Some of these guys have very expensive lawyers !
Suffice it to say, you can definitely not always judge a book by its cover.
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Won't you even tell us who the good-despite-being-cheap brand is, Runfer?
Surely the lawyers can't pursue you for good-mouthing their product?!?
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Not being unnecessarily coy I promise, but as it is a company in which I have a minor financial interest it would be inappropriate to comment on or promote them specifically here.
Sorry !
;-)
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Incidentally Enderman, you're new here right? Where are our manners !
Welcome, I hope you enjoy the chat and stick around. I think I know what an Enderman is. I have a son who plays Minecraft. Actually I have no idea what one is, I've just heard him mention them.
;-)
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Just found this for anyone interested - "Endermen are three-block-high mobs that spawn fairly uncommonly in the Overworld at light levels of 7 or less, and they densely populate The End. Endermen are neutral, but they will turn hostile when provoked."
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Sounds accurate on all counts!
;-))
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People seem to understand that a company's product can deteriorate and drop from their shopping list, but they do seem to find it much harder to allow one to improve and move onto their list.
As far as trainers and similar as concerned I am lucky, the girls have no interest in designer brands.
Unlike their Mother.
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Some "designer" brands ( oh how I loath that term, all products are designed by someone ) are indeed special. Most though have simply spent a lot of money pretending to be.
The difference is palpable if you know how to take their pulse.
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>>( oh how I loath that term, all products are designed by someone )
Me too, and I thought it as I wrote it. I let it stand though because I didn't know how else to describe the market I meant.
What would you have said?
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In common parlance, exactly the same to be honest. Don't like it though. "high profile" maybe but even that sounds dangerously poncy !
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>> The difference is palpable if you know how to take their pulse.
>>
Any tips you can pass on?
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Indeed there would be !
;-)
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Raw material quality in the main and of course how well it has been joined together, how accurately it has been lasted, any moulded components and their execution.
Oddly enough, leather content isn't always the best guide. There is some really naff leather out there, modern synthetics can often outperform cheaper natural materials.
Bear in mind that as with cuts of meat, the specific part of the animal skin used varies greatly in quality even from the same beast. Leather from the belly of an animal is not wonderful but still counts as leather and is cheap. Tough to spot it if you don't know how though. It's more of a tactile than visual thing.
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Tough to spot it if you don't know how though. It's more of a tactile than visual thing.
I thought it might be something like that, no matter even if you did tell me more I'd forget when it came to buying. Can't remember the last time I went shoe shopping.
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Then take heart that it must have been a successful and astute last trip !
It's a bit like the 'rules' for buying cars. If it's German or Scandinavian it'll probably be robust if a little bit safe in styling terms. If it's Italian it'll look gorgeous but might break. If it's Spanish it'll be ok but don't expect the highest of quality. If it's British and specifically British made, it'll be a bit expensive but it'll be very good in the main. If it's Chinese it'll be cheap enough and surprisingly well made but often from 'inexpensive' components. If it's American it'll be one of two extremes, either fabulous or utterly bogging.
I could write an essay, or a book in fact. No one one would buy it though.
Ultimately what most people say they want or think they want, they're not actually prepared to pay for.
All manner of crap sells if it looks ok and is cheap enough. Even more so if it has a label they attach some value to stuck on it. Way of the world now.
There are exceptions thank goodness, as in most industries. There are still consumers who buy a few good things less often because they tend to be expensive but there are far more who buy not so good things frequently because they are cheap.
Supermarket mentality I suppose. It's not the best but it's ok, it's cheap and it'll do sort of thing.
Who can blame them really. It's a more or less inexorable trend.
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>> Oddly enough, leather content isn't always the best guide. There is some really naff leather out there,
The reason people prefer leather shoes is that in principle they don't make their feet sting and smell bad when they have to wear them for a long time, as plastic ones do. But I know what you mean about naff leather Humph, from the velvet-trousers lace-shirt goddam Gulliver's Travels sixties.
Got a pair of Carnaby Street things once that were all leather, but the leather was like blotting paper and swelled and went dark when it got wet. I was outraged, but what can you do? Should have stuck to smart black Cecil Gee chiseltoes...
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Mercedes do a fake man made leather for seats which Humph hasn't got in his car. But I wonder what shoes made from it would be like? Artico leather shoes anyone?
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>> Mercedes do a fake man made leather for seats which Humph hasn't got in his
>> car. But I wonder what shoes made from it would be like? Artico leather shoes
>> anyone?
>>
I once had a pair of Vegan Doc Marten shoes made from something like this, they were OK but I'd admit leather is more comfortable.
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>> Raw material quality in the main and of course how well it has been joined
>> together, how accurately it has been lasted, any moulded components and their execution.
>>
These days comfortable shoes are very important and the ones I have several pairs of are Merrell Intercept. We are just back from the States and they have discontinued the Intercept over there so will have to stock up while they are still available over here.
I have tried lots of others but find them uncomfortable. I like a soft molded insole so it feels like walking on air. :)
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I wonder which of the two trainers makes most profit - i.e. what is the marketing costing for the more expensive one as a cost per pair of shoes.
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>> Even if, hypothetically for example, that company may now be owned or managed by completely
>> different people and their goods or services provided by completely different staff ?
Oh yes, definitely. 'P' me off and that's that, no custom.
Tesco is a good example for me. I won't cut my nose off to spite my face, but if I can possibly avoid them I will.. and do.
What started it was a local Tesco Direct introduced a policy of 'encouraging' customers to use the self service till ..which I point blank refuse to use, I want SERVING.
I went in there a number of times and it was like a ghost ship, God knows what their stock loss must be like ..I'd roam around the place looking for staff ..and once even went out the back to the staff area (which went down like a lead fish)...other customers were always moaning and some would abandon all their shopping on the counter, inc freezer and chilled products....eventually I wrote to Sir Terry Leahy the then CEO...and got a most bland fob off response from some Executive, which started an e-mail ping pong, until she eventually half admitted they were trying to get their customers to use the self service machines... well the one I caught looking at me in the reflection of the freezer cabinet, rather than come and serve me stood patiently in the queue for assistant service was the last straw (silly cow, if she could see me, why wouldn't I see her) ..they can corporately stuff it where the sun doesn't shine.
I'll go occasionally to the big super store if I need something out of hours or from their extensive range ..but other than that it's a Westpig boycott ...and I care not if they've had a complete change of senior management team ..they've 'P'd me off.
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Funny that, I have similar feelings about the Police...despite the fact that the individuals concerned are probably now long since retired or shuffled off their mortals.
Being systematically beaten up by a bunch of them for something which was nothing at all to do with me and then when they realised it wasn't, being threatened with further bother if I reported the incident did rather and has rather coloured my judgement for these past nearly four decades.
Pretty unreasonable of me eh? You'd think I'd have got over it by now.
;-)
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I once worked for a Scottish company that seemed to want to manage by motto.
In every office there was a little strut card that had seven short homilies on it. Things like "People will continue to do business with their friends". I can't remember them all now, but one of them was
"Reputations are made by many acts, and lost by one".
How true.
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I don't think we can always assume that 'new management' means that the resulting product is certain to be an improvement. Often the new management is part of an even bigger organisation with even lower standards of customer care.
One of the benefits of forums like this one and HJ (it would be 'fora', Runfer, but 'forums' is fine) is that you can get a general (if unscientific) feel from people's comments as to what products have and haven't improved, in terms of reliability and customer care.
SWMBO has the same prejudice as you, only hers is about Fiats and goes back 33 years. A 131 estate, bought new, let her down 3 times in its first and only year with us. We cut our losses, she stopped doing the school run and got a trouble-free Renault 5. From forum comments I haven't seen anything to suggest that Fiat's quality control is all that much better than it was all those years ago (although the ones built in Poland seem to have been better than those manufactured in Turin).
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My dad will still not buy a Ford because they don't start in the wet.
His last Ford was a Mark IV Cortina.
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>> My dad will still not buy a Ford because they don't start in the wet.
>> His last Ford was a Mark IV Cortina.
>>
With one brief exception I have always bought S/H Fords. Cortina 1600E (MK II), Cortina Crusader Mk IV x 2, Sierra Sapphire, Mondeo II. The exception was a S/H Triumph 2000 II
Never ever had problems starting the Fords except when battery was well past its sell by date.
I always ensured that the leads and distributor cap were clean and avoided any form of magic spray on them.
My 1600E had a cold start coil ( 9v) so even a poor battery would work.
Fords for easy starting! Rust - Oh YES!
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My first two cars were Fords.... I never really liked Fords. I had a Mondeo MKIII in 2003 as well. Most uncomfortable seats in a car in Ghia trim IMO. The Fiesta on a C plate was better! The 48hr test drive didn't reveal that!
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 2 Jul 14 at 00:55
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I am guilty of this with respect to Vauxhall (and now Holden).
I had 6 Vauxhalls from 1989 to 2000 and upon reflection 3 of the 6 were absolute lemons and the other 3 were hardly peerless. The dealers were universally incompetent too.
Since then I've had a flaky Civic FN3, I now consider Hondas to be fragile and (I admit it) I'm not confident about my Golf DSG - but neither of these put me off the brand as vehemently as my Vauxhall experience has.
Upon reflection the 'most competent' cars I've had were some Fords (Mk I Focus and two MKIII Mondeos) and the 'best' car was my BMW 330d. I'm open to pretty much all brands having lost my previous badge snobbery (OK so maybe not the emerging Chinese brands quite yet) but I am unlikely ever to let my money pass to General Motors.
So, customer service matters - I see this in my industry but it is sadly lost on many people who can't see past the next sales quota.
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The BMW experience has been mixed for me, but a shining example of how a brand, carefully managed, can skew the overall experience to a positive one.
Judged purely on the facts, this car has hardly been a paragon of reliability and flawless Teutonic engineering. It had a replacement body control module at 3 months old to fix all manner of weird behaviour with the stop/start system and wipers, and there have been a catalogue of niggling issues since including random bulb outages that correct themselves, clonking front suspension, noisy timing chain, noisy fan blower motor, and numerous creaks and squeaks inside by 40,000 miles. My Focus mk1 was far better built than this car.
Despite all this, it is quick, good to drive, comfortable, well equipped, and ridiculously economical. The dealers too are quite frankly brilliant. Nothing is too much trouble. They will collect and deliver from any address, courtesy cars are available with no hassle, and they follow up with customer service texts or calls to check how they did. Issues get fixed first time every time, they call you with updates and news, and the car comes back sparkling clean.
The free biannual BMW magazine, and the regular (but not intrusively so) invites to dealer launch events and test drive days, free motorsport ticket draws and other stuff, although mostly marketing puff, does make you feel like part of a club.
I've never had that kind of experience with any other marque, and you can see why BMW enjoys such high brand loyalty.
It is a great illustration of the old adage that a company's handling of a problem is far more important (within reason of course) than the problem occurring in the first place.
Good experience with VW simply because the car is bulletproof and trundles flawlessly from service to service needing beer money spending in between.
Renault = disastrous cars AND disastrous support last time I experienced them. There's enough choice out there not to need to risk it again, even if as the OP rightly says, things have probably changed.
Generally good experiences with Fords. Generally good with Vauxhall but haven't owned one built in the last 15 years, and to be honest I find all the current range rather uninspiring. Sister has a 2009 Corsa and the car itrself has been good, but the dealer she uses is a liar, and breathtakingly incompetent.
BMW next time again for me I think. Not perfect, but I've enjoyed the experience overall.
Last edited by: DP on Wed 2 Jul 14 at 09:40
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[BMW] dealers too are quite frankly brilliant.
The Vauxhall dealer I bought my Astra from in 1993 was like that - family-owned and very helpful, especially when the car had some teething problems. But then I relocated and had to use a different one...
Nothing is too much trouble.
That's right, they did nothing and still let me know it was too much trouble.
And yes, I have been back more recently to investigate Zafiras and Astras. Uninspiring is the word, I'm afraid. And the sales staff deserve a stronger term.
No, thank you.
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It's the little things with the dealers.
My car goes in for some work / a service or whatever.
They collect it from my house or from the office car park.
I get a call when the car arrives at the workshop from Bob (for example). Bob introduces himself as being the person responsible for my car during its visit, and leaves a direct line number if I have any queries at all, or want a progress update. Bob promises to call at a mutually convenient time with an update.
If I need to call Bob, he answers the phone immediately, and knows instantly what the status is with the car.
Bob calls as agreed, usually with "all done, we will deliver it back at x o clock.
At x o clock, the fixed, serviced, fully valeted and polished car turns up outside.
A week later, I get a text message from the dealer to ask if everything is OK, and the contact details of a customer service person if I want to discuss anything relating to the service I received.
Simple, simple stuff, but when I think back to my experiences with Ford dealers for example, losing my locking wheelnut key then accusing me of lying when I said it was on the front seat with the service book, or insisting the car be there for 9am, but not being able to give me a time when they would even start working on it (depends on workshop schedule mate, dunnit?". Different world, different experience.
Last edited by: DP on Wed 2 Jul 14 at 12:17
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Different world, different experience.
>>
I wonder how different the price was ? Genuine question I've not used a main dealer in 10 years.
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>> I wonder how different the price was ? Genuine question I've not used a main
>> dealer in 10 years.
Difficult to say for sure, but I suspect any main dealer in this neck of the woods is going to charge £150-£200 per hour.
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Mondeo MKIII ... Most uncomfortable seats...
My experience, too, RTJ. And I think you and I are quite different shapes, so that's a real achievement to make us both uncomfortable. (Makes me wonder too what shape Humph must be if he fits and we don't.)
Didn't think much of the distant-letterbox view out of the back, either - so compromised on boot access and rear seat space and went for the S60 you all know about.
No problem with Ford per se, though; just didn't like that particular product.
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>> (Makes me wonder too what shape Humph must be if he fits and we don't.)
More or less perfect shape allegedly. Not for me to say of course but I can see why others might think so...
It's hard being an Adonis you know.
;-)))
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Wed 2 Jul 14 at 13:00
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I'll never buy another Hillman again as my Imp was dreadful.
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>> I'll never buy another Hillman again as my Imp was dreadful.
>>
Quite agree, my Dad had one and they were dire but from all accounts great to drive between breakdowns and before they rusted away.
Commers on the other hand...... :-)
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Odd that this thread should be initiated by someone who absolutely will not consider a "low rent " brand of car like Skoda. "Ah, well, ahem, um, a Skoda you say?" being the standard response to suggestions of a Superb to replace the blingy Merc.
Would you REALLY not buy a Skoda simply becasue of the badge Runf, or have I got it wrong?
Some good stuff to be had with Primark labels on it, too.
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>>
>> Some good stuff to be had with Primark labels on it, too.
>>
That's selling Skoda short. A Skoda isn't six inches shorter after you wash it for the first time. ;-)
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Runfer D'Hills flogs proper footwear one assumes to wholesale and retail purchasers.
Such people tend to have what in my book, and probably Humph's too, are galloping PITA attitudes to other marques and brands. They tend to be inordinately proud of the high earnings brought by their vertiginous insolence and even more vertiginous boredom thresholds, and would be mortified if gear or samples arrived in the back of a Skoda.
Even people who aren't like that are utterly moronic about Skoda, a great engineering company for 100 years or more in a country renowned for its engineering prowess. Its products are evidently still good and retain some individuality even under VAG ownership.
Don't worry Humph, some of us understand you.
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The evil that men do lives after them,
The good is oft interred with their bones.
So let it be with Skoda.
(William Shakespeare, Skoda, Act III Scene ii)
Nothing new here, Humph.
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Some would call it tragedy.
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Fascinating thread Runfer. The joys of human nature.
I would not buy another BMW as mine has been a proper 'Friday afternoon car' - although I appreciate with car building this day that inference is just not possible anymore. Too many electrical gubbins nowadays, but then I would not want to miss out on the toys they operate!
The reason why I would not buy another is (amongst others of course) the potential for criticism here at work should I get another one equally as bad, and the sheer hassle of returning it to the dealer each time. As a previous contributor has stated though, the service from the dealer I have used has been exceptional, and the car when working correctly is admirable in many respects. Once bitten, twice shy though....
Previous cars have generally been a delight in many respects, although I tend to remember them in a rosy light, and when I think how some of them fell apart or were poorly assembled, that pales against the fun I had in them - running a little counter to your thread's title of course!
Favourite of the lot? Citroen GSA. But that was traded in whilst just running on three cylinders, exhaust hanging off and all sorts of other economically disastrous problems, but I remember it fondly and would buy another like a shot if I could find a good one.
Oh and the Fiat 127 that threw a cam belt and was not a 'safe' engine and the head was effectively welded on........ (It did have opening quarter lights on the front side windows to drop a fag butt out of without risking it blowing back in though, so was forgiven all other faults!).
On the shoe-front I have 'invested' in some Loake shoes after spending a fortune on cheaper ones that last a year or less and then get thrown away, (including some expensive UK made shoes claiming to be 'the finest quality' that when they fell apart looked like they were made from cardboard...). Will see if this investment is wiser in some months!
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>> Some would call it tragedy.
Yes, a Jock having to shell out for a Merc just to keep the punters happy, when he could have a comfortable svelte Skoda Superb with ample pampootie room at half the price?
(I'm only teasing. I have a feeling Skoda Superbs are quite expensive, and I don't doubt that the right Mercedes estate in proper nick is a great, comfortable, hard-wearing jalopy. In fact I know it is from personal experience. Rich people in Nigeria and other places in Africa buy Mercs for preference, for good reason).
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The fact that a Superb happens to be a Skoda is neither here nor there to be honest. Even if it was made by Aston Martin it would still be a bit of a munter. It reminds me of one of my wife's aunts who has some false teeth which appear to be several sizes too big.
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Bit of black lacquer/grey primer - even that terra-cotta primer -can work wonders Humph. A lot of cars these days come on like Bugs Bunny. All they need is an anvil dropped on their heads.
I suppose the punters might jib at a bohemian looking motor though. Hard luck.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Wed 2 Jul 14 at 20:08
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In truth they wouldn't care if I arrived on the bus. I like my Merc. It's just a really nice drive coupled with a lot of practicality and so far, excellent reliability.
I would like to think anyway that I really don't give a stuff what anyone else thinks of my car. Maybe I do a bit, but not enough to exclude one on that basis.
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>Even if it was made by Aston Martin it would still be a bit of a munter. It reminds me of one
>of my wife's aunts who has some false teeth which appear to be several sizes too big.
I was alongside a Superb Estate in a metallic burgundy colour a few days ago and thought it looked quite smart. I didn't know what it was until I hung back to see the badges on the back.
Unlike some teutonic estates, it didn't didn't look like it had lost it's cortege.
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Parts of this thread remind me of an exercise many years ago when we went through the ISO 9000 process.
We employed an outside "consultant" to guide us through the process and one of the first questions he asked was:
"What is quality? Give me an example of a 'Quality' car."
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zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance
;-)
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>>
>> "What is quality?
We had that as well, the answer we (well not me personally...) came up with, and used, was 'fit for purpose at minimum cost'
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>> "What is quality?
>>
>> We had that as well, the answer we (well not me personally...) came up with,
>> and used, was 'fit for purpose at minimum cost'
>>
Surely, that would be the answer to 'what is value'?
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I wondered that too. Surely quality is 'more than fit for purpose'.
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According to NC when we did this a while ago, it's about repeatability and adherence to pattern. So a McDonalds burger is of high quality because it looks the same as the last and the next, whereas my made-from-scratch one is merely 'high specification'.
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Maybe so, but I didn't come up with definition!
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"of high quality because it looks the same as the last and the next"
We are straying into ISO9000 (? probably superseeded by now?) terrirtory. It does not matter if it is actually crap - as long as it always the same crap crap :)
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I can confirm it is crap.
I was collecting from Jakemans Cough sweets a few years ago when I asked to use their loo.
I was promptly pointed to the ISO9000 plaque on the wall and told their consistently high standards do not allow visitors to use their toilets.
I did resist watering the wheelnuts, but only just....
Pat
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Pat, that has nothing to do with ISO and everything to do with Jakemans implementation of the rules - some jobsworth banning everything when itv doesn't need to be banned, just to be seen to 'comply' - just like British beaurocrats do with EU regs, when the rest of the EU takes a much more relaxed stance.
And their procedures would have been at fault had they not had a mechanism for recording your non-compliance, had you just wandered in and used the facilties....
But you are right, it is all just crap - a few years ago I helped gain accreditation for a former employer in the capacity of 'Compliance Officer' and between the consultant who fudged the procedures as to be meaningless, the auditors whose main preoccupation seems to be learning where the scabs where so they could avoid picking them, management's refusal to pay anything other than lip service, and once it was acheived, it was forgotten for 363 days a year
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>> when itv doesn't need to be banned,
I'd argue that point.
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Yes borasport, I thought that was the case at the time but couldn't be sure enough to stand my ground.
Like a lot of firms, they want us to take the raw materials in and the finished goods out, but how we manage our own health, comfort and cleanliness along the way is of no concern to them.
Pat
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Pat
I was a bit narked the other day stuck in a jam on the M6 that seemd to be caused by nothing other than a lorry on the hard shoulder - it was visible that the driver had parked under a bridge and was relieving himself, and I thought at the time, if that's all he's stopped for, then he's well out of order.
But my job used to bring me into contact with the industry. At the start of the relationship your capturing requirements, it's all meeting the management, coming in the front door, warehouse foyers that could be mistaken for an upmarket car showroom. Then the project goes live and you get to see how little of the rest of the business is
like that. Then the project goes wrong, and your expected to be round the back doors when they open up at 6 am to get in and sort things out, and you see how drivers are treated, hanging about in a probably unheated small cubicle where the staff of the place you are delivering to snarl at you through a small glass window they slam shut at any opportunity. When it's open either they are wordlessly snatching bits of paper from your hands or equally soundlessly shoving them back - I couldn't be doing with that.
And I've seen someplaces that made me think that taking a leak by the side of the M6 was the healthier, cleaner, option - I can think of one customer on Liverpool Docks where you got the impression that the cleaner got called up in 1939 and they'd forgotten to get a replacment - if you had to use the place, it felt like a scrub down with carbolic was needed !
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Borasport you have described some of the places we got to exactly, but others are a dream and they treat us to showers, coffee and occasionally, the opportunity to park on site overnight.
The thing is lorry drivers are just the same as anyone else and only remember the bad toilets, the rude Goods In clerk and the endless, pointless H&S regs we have quoted to us as an example of why we can't use the canteen/toilets etc.
I remember the old Sainsbury depot at Buntingford and those days we all roped and sheeted loads. We had the worst toilet I have ever seen anywhere with a tap hanging off the wall and that was if you dare even go in! Ladies toilets were unheard of but now someone would photograph it on their phone and post it on Facebook so things may have improved a bit.
I stand in front of a room full of drivers now and have to counter these allegations about the treatment drivers get from back door staff.
I can only advise them to go in with a smile and a cheery Good Morning, as I always found it difficult to be ignored when I did that.
The problem is....I know it's true because I've been there:)
I think I've used those facilities on Liverpool Docks too when loading there;)
Pat
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Pat
T'wouldnt do to name the business, they went bankrupt 4 or 5 years ago, but they were on Alexandra Dock
Probably a different company in the premises these days, but I'll bet the loos are unchanged
And possibly the company directors unchanged as well, it was that sort business, went into liquidation twice when we did deal with them. The company couldn't pay it's way, but god forbid one of the management should drive a car over 6 months old
Last edited by: borasport on Fri 4 Jul 14 at 20:30
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I'm sure I know the one you mean so no need to name names!
Despite that I used to love loading at Alexandra Dock though, the dockers have a unique sense of humour but most have hearts of gold too.
Pat
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>> We are straying into ISO9000 (? probably superseeded by now?) terrirtory. It does not matter
>> if it is actually crap - as long as it always the same crap crap
>> :)
We did Investors in People sometime in the nineties. Loads of documentation, a plaque on the wall and several promotions gained on back of it.
Management were just the same. A few good, plenty fair to middling while the bullies carried on as they always did.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 3 Jul 14 at 11:13
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>>>> if it is actually crap - as long as it always the same crap crap
Not quite. If it is in the desired state, which may or may not be crap, and then consist - if it is accidentally crap, then it won't pass.
Say what you're going to do, do what you said you were going to do, record that you did it.
What people get wrong is the level of detail.
If you put in place a process for allowing visitors to use your toilet, then you have to follow it. However, you didn't have to put a process in place to start with.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 3 Jul 14 at 15:17
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A firm, receptionist, doorman or whatever that won't let even a random passer-by use the bog is a damn criminal, whatever the company rules may be.
My experience is that if you ask politely people politely allow you to pollute their spotless porcelain. Can't remember ever being refused. Perhaps it's my anxious, hunted demeanour... they don't want a puddle or worse in the reception area after all. Better safe than sorry innit?
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>> Surely quality is 'more than fit for purpose'.
Spot on slidingpillar. But like 'value' and other portmanteau terms 'quality' comes in all shapes and sizes. There are different sorts of quality.
That variety is what makes cars, and indeed complex fabrications in general, so endlessly fascinating to a grubby nerd like me (although of course not like you sp).
:o}
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And that's before we even start on 'perceived quality', which seems to be a recent coinage - and used, as far as I can tell, by people who can't afford it (whatever it is) and need to convince others, but mostly themselves, that it's not worth having anyway.
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Of course WDB perceived quality is a crucial aspect of the, er, quality continuum might one call it? To put it crudely there's no quality if people don't perceive it...
Heh heh...
I like to think I'm still handy with this carp from my market research days in the middle ages, when I wielded them all the time.
Trouble was, the internal market consisted of marketing spivs and pseudo-classy company directors, a more reactionary, wimpish and moronic bunch of chancers you couldn't hope to find. My pearls were served up to swine.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Fri 4 Jul 14 at 16:55
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>> And that's before we even start on 'perceived quality', which seems to be a recent
>> coinage - and used, as far as I can tell, by people who can't afford
>> it (whatever it is) and need to convince others, but mostly themselves, that it's not
>> worth having anyway.
Perceived quality is often the best form of value you can add to a product. It sells them by the bucketload.
It's often achieved by a combination of higher price point (carefully managing the distribution of course) and sustained, well planned advertising and brand management.
It provides genuine utility to buyers which as any 'O' level economist knows is all people pay for.
An awful lot of people have been happier with Persil than Square Deal Surf, because they are, in effect, prepared to pay for the constant reinforcement of the message that it is highly developed and super effective.
Not much else matters for a premium (i.e. high priced) brand than perceived quality.
It follows that actually having an outstanding product is a rational way to maintain the perception, but it's not the only way by any means, and nigh impossible with stuff like shampoo - "because you're worth it".
Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 4 Jul 14 at 17:17
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>>Perceived quality is often the best form of value you can add to a product
Really, its a "perceived bargain" that one sells. That can be an excess of function, feature, quality, fashion or any other desirable factor in relation to the requested price and/or availability. It need not be all factors, or indeed more than one - Ask Fortnum's or a Poundshop.
>> higher price point / advertising / brand management
That is one strategy for one market placing. It is not the only approach, nor the only place.
>>Not much else matters for a premium (i.e. high priced) brand than perceived quality.
Fashion?
Service?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 4 Jul 14 at 18:41
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No one is listening to me.
My corporate days were in the tobacco industry which is wholly image-dominated, the product being the same old addictive carcinogenic carp in all forms and brands.
Brand management and advertising are the very things I'm talking about. The brand managers were chancers from other corporations or company men with shares. None of them gave a damn because an addict is an addict (the carphounds were already giving up smoking themselves!). The directors were even worse.
Some of the advertising company people were quite agreeable, but of course they were in total thrall to the damn corporation and couldn't be trusted.
I tried quite hard to inject some rationality and taste and radical sixties aesthetic into pack design and ad campaigns, but got nowhere. Rightly perhaps because the conservatism and idiocy of the market itself is beyond belief. Believe me anyway, I've talked to it and I know.
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>> The rational part of me recognises that whoever designed the car I had a bad experience with is probably now retired or dead, the factory it was made in has probably been closed, is under completely new management
Often the philosophy of business remains the same even if people in management changes.
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Bad remembered more than good - Slidingpillar
