It struck me the other day that there are aspects of my last car that I miss in the new one, and then there are ones from even earlier cars that I would love to get back into a modern one. Is it just me?
The opening rear glass in the boot of the Beemer where the rear load-cover also popped up a bit to enable you just to drop a bag or jacket into the car was great.
Thinking back further then the adjustable suspension in the Citroen GSA enabled me to get across hugely rutted surfaces by lifting the car up, and as for the opening quarter-light in the front windows on my Fiat 127's was great at the time to flick out a bit of fag-ash from my smoking days, but also allowed a little fresh air in without having to drop the whole window.
Anything you miss from your old cars?
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The opening front windscreen on my Rover 16.. for those HOT days..
The fast - one half turn top o bottom - manual window lift on my Rover 16.
A freewheel - all Rovers till the 1960s.
Vacuum wipers - NOT - as on Ford Anglai.
A fuel guage which doubled as an oil level gauage at teh psuh of a button (Rover 16)..
Rear blinds for when you want privacy.
Reclining rear seats.
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Hand throttle?
Except that most cars are something like 3 turns lock to lock and my vintage car with hand throttle is only 270 degrees. So not that practical now I guess.
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The self levelling suspension from my BX/Xantia would be great for towing but I still want the space etc of the Berlingo.
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Hinged rear side windows on two/three door cars. My Saab 99 had them and had great ventilation in warm weather.
alfalfa
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Looking at the bumper-corners in the supermarket car park, quite a few people could benefit from those sticks with bobbles on the end that you used to see fitted to Beetles.
Unpainted bumpers might be a good idea for the same reason.
I liked quarter lights too, but I'm not sure they have much value in a car with air-conditioning that works.
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A cranking handle for when the battery dies without the courtesy of several days notice. As they so often do.
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Some kind of temperature indicator.
I notice the Honda Jazz has a blue symbol until the engine is warmed through. I have to run the Torque app on my phone to let me know when the engine has warmed through before extending it.
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Rubber front wings (very old moggie minor) would solve a lot of SWMBO's parking problems.
Also good for leaving big, black marks on mates cars ;>)
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We had a 1947 Austin 8 that had an opening front windscreen, floor mounted headlights dip switch and a string pull for the driver to put the rear window blind in place (yes Austin thought it was necessary, even for dim 6v headlights on following vehicles!!)
Always valued front window quarter lights as I was a smoker and you just had to flick the ash out with little or no risk of it coming back into the vehicle.
Had a 1960 Morris Minor 1000 for two years before discovering the rear seat could be folded down by releasing a hidden from view strap fastener....!!
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A full sized spare wheel and unpainted plastic bumpers would be nice.
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>> A full sized spare wheel and unpainted plastic bumpers would be nice.
Th salesman was quite apologetic that while mid model Berlingos have coloured bumpers/rubbing strips the XTR does not. He was a bit taken aback when I said I was pleased - both Xantia and older 'lingo had contact scrapes on painted bumpers.
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I genuinely can't think of anything... even including the stuff mentioned above.
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>> I genuinely can't think of anything... even including the stuff mentioned above.
Same here. I like to look at old cars and enjoy nostalgia as much as anyone but even a modest family saloon is now equipped with all the kit you need and more and could once only dream of.
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An engine which pushed out hot air within 100 yards (Triumph 1500).
The ability to push out a cloud of smoke at tailgating drivers (Granada 2.8)
Roll up/roll down of windows from the remote (Mondeo)
I think that's it - my current cars meet all my requirements except that one.
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I'd quite like some new tech in my old car.
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You can have my rev counter...
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>> You can have my rev counter...
Got one thanks.
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>> Rubber front wings (very old moggie minor) would solve a lot of SWMBO's parking problems.
>> Also good for leaving big, black marks on mates cars ;>)
>>
Showing your background there, BT! Only fitted on early 'Post Office Telephones (and Postal)' specn vans - (possibly on the even older series E as well?). The PO Tel vans still had the small engine (803cc) well beyond the introduction of 948/1098cc in the commercial versions, and some had a restrictor plate fitted on the inlet manifold. Lots of other detail specn issues you can find at
bmcexperience.com.au/bmce-issue2/royal-mail-morris-minor-van.html
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Being able to brim the tank from empty for 6 quid.
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>> Being able to brim the tank from empty for 6 quid.
>>
I can still do that.............
...... on me scooter. :-(
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>>I can still do that, on me scooter. :-(
And fall off it (like RP)?
Ps. With a moniker like yours, you admit to riding a scooter?
;>)
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>> Ps. With a moniker like yours, you admit to riding a scooter?
>>
>> ;>)
>>
Think of it as my contribution to the environment. ;-)
I live two miles from work; trip home involves a busy dual carriageway or alternatively a steep hill so that rules out cycling or Shanks' pony. Currently on me second Honda Lead; first one 53 plate, I bought it for £200 as a non-runner only needed a new battery and a tyre. It lasted me three years until the suspension bushes wore out and the exhaust pipe snapped due to the mounting bracket rusting through, a common problem but £100 to fix for the exhaust alone. Bought a 2008 model (water-cooled and quite a bit faster) nearly two years ago, stolen/recovered for £300, spent another £200 repairing the plastic which the scrotes had busted to steal it and have used it ever since.
Remember, riding a scooter is like riding a fat woman; great fun but never let your mates catch you doing it. :-)
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Proper knobs that I could locate by feel to tune the radio and change the waveband without having to keep my fingertip in a very specific place on a touchscreen while looking at the road.
I probably will miss, with my next car whenever that is, having sensible windows all round so that I can see out properly, and my car doesn't look like a drug dealer's favourite form of transport.
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I think touchscreens are a backward step Tbh for the exact reason Mike sets out. And they look manky once your greasy paw has been on them.
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I suppose they are though ever so slightly preferable to voice command systems. I get very very cross with mine. I've even tried bellowing at it in a German accent to try to get it to understand. Gets some strange looks when sitting in London traffic with the window down.
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>> I think touchscreens are a backward step Tbh for the exact reason Mike sets out.
>> And they look manky once your greasy paw has been on them.
>>
I don't actually have a plan to replace my car at the moment, but the Peugeot 308SW appealed until I discovered that even the heating & ventilation controls are touch screen, for goodness sake! My take is that they are simply dangerous, I cannot see how you can avoid taking your eyes off the road to operate them. At least with a knob, once you've located it, the rest can be done by feel.
Glad I'm not alone on this one :-)
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Not such old tech that I would like to have on my car.
Mk 1 Cortina type cold air eyeball controls always available to supply fresh air at face level.
I will forgo the pollen filter and suffer the odd leaf in the system :-)
Indicator stalk on the right ( proper ) side.
A headlamp flasher stalk that you pull for full beam and it then springs back.
A light switch that selects dip beam NOT main beam ( if that was the last used setting).
Be able to switch the radio on ( with a one hour timer) with out needing the ignition key)
"tool less" access to change bulbs ( I guess LEDS will eliminate bulb changing?)
Rear wiper on my saloon.
Front turn indicators just forward of the front wheel arch ( like some Austin 1100s)
An old tech I do not have is external aerials not even for Sat Nav. IMO the clean look without ( Look at my sharks fin on the roof - I have Sat Nav!!) is much nicer.
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I really liked the ability to decide whether the face vents blew out hot air or cold (BMW 330)
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>>>ability to decide whether the face vents blew out hot air or cold
That feature, independent diesel fired heater, residual heat mode and many other aspects makes the 525 climate system possibly the best I've experienced.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Mon 11 Aug 14 at 21:15
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I'd like A posts that didn't get in the way of seeing the kerbline to your right round a roundabout.
The Citroen C3 was bad for this with it's curved A post. The nearside one exactly obscured vision to the left whilst waiting at a 90degree 'T' junction.
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That's a good point re the C3. With Mrs F's we always took care to look with that obstruction in mind and it's only now she has the Polo the view is normal again.
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I'm with Fenlander and have a theory looking at the above posts.
Could it be that as we are both relative youngsters compared to the other posters, the lists are longer the older you are? :)
Pat
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I'd like a return to the days when a garage only needed to stock 6-10 different tyre sizes and that would cover most of the cars on the road.
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>> I'm with Fenlander and have a theory looking at the above posts.
>>
>> Could it be that as we are both relative youngsters compared to the other posters,
>> the lists are longer the older you are? :)
>>
>> Pat
>>
Older posters have dementia and can't remember things...
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>>Older posters have dementia and can't remember things...>>
Can you recall just why they all presumably have dementia?
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>> I'm with Fenlander and have a theory looking at the above posts.
>>
>> Could it be that as we are both relative youngsters compared to the other posters,
>> the lists are longer the older you are? :)
No, the longer the list the more of a whinging whining moaning luddite.
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I've a long list:-)
Not a luddite.. I would never go back to old cars: they were carp when new and get worse when they get old. Zero status and enjoyment...:-)
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>> Zero status..:-)
>>
Marketing victim?
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Cars of old were a a constant source of worry and unexpected expense. A frosty night would mean that a good proportion wouldn't start in the morning. Distributors meant they were out of tune in a few hundred miles after service. Breakdowns were a regular feature of life and cars needed servicing every 3,000 miles. All that combined with a lack of air conditioning and decent in car entertainment
Fine if you like tinkering around with things mechanical but if you want a car for it's intended purpose i.e.going from A to B a modern car wins hand down.
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To put another side to it, maybe this should be in the caravan thread, my current plan post retirement is to have a "balanced" pair of vehicles for SWMBO and I, consisting of the Commer campervan as leisure / holiday / "2nd car" use and a new(ish) reasonable spec VW Golf for day to day use.
Given no requirement any more for commute type journeys I do not anticipate any real issues, the Golf will do fine for the get in and go type journeys with ISO fix attachments for child seats for occasional grandchild use and for any long visiting family type journeys, and the Commer for trips to DIY shops, weekends away, trainspotting / steam fairs etc.
Anyway, back to the question at the start of the thread, I would like quarterlights although I know they are a theft risk. I also like the floor mounted dipswitch on the Commer and would like that in a modern car.
To turn it round a bit I have added a couple of upgrades to the Commer to make it more usable, namely electronic ignition, better lights, electric fan and better brakes. Once I get it running regularly I should not have any more breakdown problems than a modern car and they should be easier to fix if / when they happen. The servicing interval will be once a year as it has been for the last 27 years as I do not expect to do more than 3 - 4000 miles a year anyway.
Nice to have the option of both.
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As I was reading through this thread I was thinking much the same thoughts that Commerdriver has expressed so admirably.
I think back to my first car in 1969 - a much-loved Austin A50. There wasn't much to go wrong - and it didn't - but I only had it a year and some components would have worn out in time, and no much could be done about the handling (although the ride was superb).
Next car was an MG 1100, and following that an MG 1300. Now these handled very well, thanks to Alec Issigonis. Fit Commerdriver's list of updates, to which I'd add modern tyres, hoses and spark plugs, plus some decent anti-rust treatment - and you'd have a very reliable car.
SWMBO and I are about to retire to north Dorset. Of course we need a modern car to do distance work: the Octavia vRS is doing a brilliant job of the Berks - Dorset run 2 or 3 times a week at the moment. But just think how good something like an 1100/1300, enhanced as above, would be in the country lanes and small towns, with its narrowness and excellent all-round visibility - and easy and cheap to fix when needed.
Just a thought - necessarily tongue-in-cheek, not least because the few of these that survive will have been restored and will be priced accordingly.
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>> Cars of old were a a constant source of worry and unexpected expense.
Funny, that's never been my experience, and I have always had old cars as daily drivers since 1967.
I had a ride in my old Triumph Stag at the weekend. I sold it to my brother in law 20 years ago, and he has used it regularly ever since without any problems. Nothing has gone wrong, it starts first time, and still has exciting performance.
He was observing that the 40-year old electric windows still worked perfectly. So do the nifty knobs for opening the quarter lights.
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>>Be able to switch the radio on ( with a one hour timer) with out needing the ignition key)>>
Pretty sure that the Blaupunkt radio-cassette in my VW Jetta can be switched on just by pushing the volume knob if the ignition is off. Will check tomorrow...!
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Funny, were were discussing old stuff on my Harley club website t'other day. One thing that came up was that whilst reliability, easy starting and lack of necessary owner involvement weren't necessarily a bad thing, they did detract from the sense of achievement gained by using older and less reliable bikes.
Back in the mid-1990's my sole means of transport was a 1942 side-valve model WLA; still got one now and I do a considerable mileage on it, but I'm also thankful that I have other easier and cheaper methods of getting about.
As for things you'd miss; well up to a few months ago, quarter-lights but I've packed up smoking now.
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I'm a non-smoker but loved the quarter-lights that my first three cars had (mentioned above).
Open them a little in cold weather and you had a demister but not a draught. Turn them right round in hot weather and you had a blast of cool air in the face much more extensive than any air-con system can deliver.
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>> Pretty sure that the Blaupunkt radio-cassette in my VW Jetta can be switched on just
>> by pushing the volume knob if the ignition is off. Will check tomorrow...!
>>
I miss this feature which my 98 Mondeo has but the X type lacks.
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>>Pretty sure that the Blaupunkt radio-cassette in my VW Jetta can be switched on just by pushing the volume knob if the ignition is off. Will check tomorrow...!>>
Yes, my memory proved correct!! It's an RCD 300 model.
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Non self-cancelling indicators.
Self-cancelling ones are a pain in the neck. They cancel when you don't want them to, can't distinguish a bend in the road from a completed turn, and make ominous noises if you try to over-ride a cancellation at the moment it is triggering.
On the Landrover it's a simple adjustment to disable it. Then I make the decisons when to turn them off, when to leave them on.
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I don't miss:
hand throttles
Advance/retard on the steering wheel.
Starting handles.
Magnetos.
Carburettors
Side opening bonnets.
Wire wheels
And Lucas electrics.
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Not forgetting
Distributors
chokes
Batteries you have to top up
Rubbish headlights
Cassette players
Vinyl upholstery
Cross ply tyres
Non inertia seatbelts you trip up on
Non galvanised steel bodywork
Flaking chrome bumpers
Hub caps
Non laminated windscreens that explode and leave you without vision at 70mph
Radiators you have to top up
Adding anti freeze every year.
Locks every local tea leaf can open
Aerials that can be snapped off
Exhaust systems that rot through on an annual basis
Drum brakes
Wing mirrors
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 13 Aug 14 at 19:54
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I must be the only person here who misses contact breaker ignition. Once you know how to do it it doesn't take long, and there's some satisfaction in getting the jalopy tweaked up properly, quicker and more frugal than its average colleague. Most garages were quite crap at tuning. They just got it running and starting and left it at that. Sluts.
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On the Landrover it's a simple adjustment...
...with which size hammer?
I've used one of Madf's items, perhaps two. I won't say which.
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I'm seriously thinking of ripping the (aftermarket) CD/Radio out of the Suzuki. It's just got too many ' functions ' all to search for and play my two required channels.....one, really, Radio 4 is for the dragon ! Once she's fiddled around 'cos the ruddy Archers is coming on, my Classic FM is lost to the ether without stopping and using some serious brain and guess work !
I have a radio cassette in the garage which I used to have on the BMW bike. I also have some 200ish tapes stored away which I never listen to.
Seems a good idea to get them out and renew our acquaintance. Simple tuning for the radio, press a button, find your chosen channel. Pull the button out, it bleeps. Push it back and bob's yer nobs !
I like points as well so I'm wiv yer there Carmel .
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Have to agree about some of the more flashy modern audio units. This is my daughters... i1.adis.ws/i/washford/703443?$pd_main$
It's very hard to operate without really concentrating on what you're pressing and a real distraction when driving.
My BMW despite looking boringly plain is so easy to operate on the move... bmw.bazzi.biz/images/anleit/radios/BusinessKas_IRISG.jpg
(CD changer in the boot)
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Why? Both operate on exactly the same principle. Row of buttons 1-6 along the bottom for channel, a turning volume control at the left, and a up and down seek button.
Both look exactly the same to me when you look at the basics. Rarely does all the other functions the newer one can perform get used on the move.
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>>
>> ...with which size hammer?
>>
Small spanner. There's a rubber wheel on the indicator assembly which presses against the steering column. Slacken the bolts and move it out a bit on the slots, and hey presto, banish embarassing premature indicator cancellation frustration.
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>>
>> On the Landrover it's a simple adjustment to disable it. Then I make the decisons
>> when to turn them off, when to leave them on.
>>
Cliff, IIRC like me you live in rural Wales. As you well know use of indicators, in fact even the existence of same, is not obligatory here. I'm not convinced that they're even an MOT test item.
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One very important item that I forgot. It specifically applies to X type Jaguars.
A mechanical boot lock. i.e. the ability to unlock the boot with a key in a keyhole near the boot lid. You might find this a strange requirement.
From the Jaguar forums it seems that if the electricky operation fails it is a case of using a crowbar or maybe destroy the rear seat and then deal with the cross struts behind ?
Due to differences it the US spec they can just smash a rear lamp cluster to gain access.
Thank goodness for car specific forums as I now have a workaround this stupid design "feature".
I thought car design was /is improving :-(
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>> One very important item that I forgot. It specifically applies to X type Jaguars.
No it doesn't. It happened to my lads Insignia. We had to break and replace the rear trim around the boot lock switch to get it fixed.
Failure of the electric boot open switch is endemic across many brands.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 14 Aug 14 at 08:50
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>> We had to break and replace the rear trim around the boot lock switch to get it fixed.
>>
A lot cheaper and easier than using a crowbar on the boot lid.
I have seen the damage a crow bar does even when used gently.
Many moons ago we had a hire car on holiday and the boot lock failed.
The boot was stuffed with cases etc.
We had to resort to attacking the boot lid and peeled up the corner of the boot lid to gain access.
The plastic link between lock and catch had fallen out (a common fault we were later told).
It was easy to solve, without tools, once we had access. Not so easy easy on the X type.
For the maximum outlay of ten pence I have modified things so that I no longer have concerns if electrics fail or the lock fails.
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In the cases of most contributors to this site, the wetware in their modern cars is the old tech!
;-)
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Interesting to read the thoughts of others.
There is soooo much about new cars I am grateful for. Airbags, crumple-zones, aircon, remote central locking, better music systems, more comfort on long journeys, better sound insulation, power steering, mobile connectivity, ABS brakes, stability control, the much-reduced risk of breakdown, better fuel consumption, the fact you can jump in the car and drive across Europe with no concerns other than making sure you have packed OK, and not worrying about whether you will get there or not.
So much is better than it used to be, and if the pay-off is a few electrical gremlins, then in the larger scheme of things then that is a fair swop (and trust me, I had more than my fair share of electric gripes with the beemer.....)
Interesting that opening 1/2 lights are missed so widely.
The XJ-S convertible I had - whilst 'fairly' old-tech, was such a headache, and every few hundred miles something went wrong (the gearbox failing leaving me with just first gear made for an interesting 20 mile drive home with the V12 spinning furiously as I made my stately 30mph trip).
As was getting towed to a garage with the GSA when the engine died, leaving me with virtually no brakes, and certainly no suspension - also a challenge.....
Mind you, I did like the brakes on that thing. Good they were aggressive. You only had to think about the brake pedal and you stopped. Getting out of that car into a normal one always made the first junction a challenge / accident risk as you touched the brake pedal as normal and sailed across the cross-roads as nothing happened! Probably the most bonkers car I ever had, and fondly missed in many regards....
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1/2 lights? I mean 1/4 lights of course....
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>> GSA Probably the most bonkers car I ever had, and fondly missed in many regards....
>>
I had one too. I wholeheartedly agree. Sigh. A604 YJH why did I scrap you............I'm sorry............
Those brakes, why has no-one copied them? Or have they?
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>>Those brakes, why has no-one copied them? Or have they?<<
The system died out with the Xantia and that was dumbed down a bit after the BX
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>> Those brakes, why has no-one copied them?
Because they were ruddy stupid.
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Or looked at another way that braking system resulted in cars that could stop effectively in a way only matched by other makers some 30+ years later.
Superb system design causing the braking effort to be generated by the car and just needing the driver to release it rather than rely on the varying ability of drivers to put effort into pressing the pedal.
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>> Or looked at another way that braking system resulted in cars that could stop effectively
>> in a way only matched by other makers some 30+ years later.
Absolutely untrue, its braking was no better than any other car mainly because all the tyres on all the cars were useless at that time.
>> Superb system design causing the braking effort to be generated by the car and just
>> needing the driver to release it rather than rely on the varying ability of drivers
>> to put effort into pressing the pedal.
And dangerous in less than optimal grip conditions. Peoples memories are clearly phased by the passage of time and the belief that overly fierce brakes were better brakes They were infinitely less controllable by the driver than any other comparable braking system before and since,
And a system that looses power completely when the engine has stopped? Yes super safe that one.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 14 Aug 14 at 15:45
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>>>Absolutely untrue, its braking was no better than any other car
Actually the real life braking was far better because the immediately available braking effort often caused or allowed folks to take off significant speed early in the braking distance whereas it is a tendency with a normal old system for folks to brake too gently initially so the car carries too much speed into an ever closing gap.
>>> mainly because all the tyres on all the cars were useless at that time.
Well the cross plys still being fitted to Triumph 2000s and the like were... the Michelin XAS radials fitted to the Citroen DS for example were excellent.
>>>And dangerous in less than optimal grip conditions.
Not if you have any feel for a car.
>>>Peoples memories are clearly phased by the passage of time and the belief that overly fierce brakes were better brakes They were infinitely less controllable by the driver than any other comparable braking system before and since,
Wrong. In a normal system the driver is asked to produce the effort... and control the degree of braking. On the Citroen system all the driver had to do was effect the control.
>>>And a system that looses power completely when the engine has stopped? Yes super safe that one.
They had a reserve pressure vessel and a safety valve that allocated hydraulic pressure to the most important systems. I know it well as I've knowingly driven such cars through hydraulic pressure failure several times.
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>> >>>And dangerous in less than optimal grip conditions.
>>
>> Not if you have any feel for a car.
Ah yes - "the you can't drive it properly argument" Knew that one was coming.
>>
>>
>> Wrong. In a normal system the driver is asked to produce the effort... and control
>> the degree of braking. On the Citroen system all the driver had to do was
>> effect the control.
There was no little control over the effect due the very small amounts of movements of that control available to the driver.
It was a system that was so good, so well loved by the motoring public that every maker flocked to copy it, and Citroen kept it going for years.
Oh wait......
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I still stand by the point that it's better to have a system with a maximum of power available that may or may not take a little finesse to use... than a system that relies on the uncertainty of humans to produce the power.
And that is why Emergency Brake Assist was developed and widely introduced.... because it was realised (I think Mercedes were one of the pioneers in this research during the 90s) that the driver was a weak link in emergency braking situations. Research showed people do not brake early or hard enough to achieve a full stop in the distance available.
Strangely these short travel, light pressure systems you seem to have so much trouble with were managed without difficulty by a wide variety of very ordinary drivers for many years due to the popularity of the BX in its time.
Probably the best braking very modern car I've driven was my 2009 C5 with huge discs, powerful servo and EBA. A max effort stop from motorway speeds was awesome and without drama.... much like my CX Citroens.
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I agree with Fenlander. Must have done 400k+ plus in two BX then Xantia.
Only the latter had ABS but never had a skid or serious lock up on any of them. System was amply demonstrated test driving first BX from a garage in Berkhamsted when deer ran out in front of us near Ashurst college. Even if the system leaked you had effective brakes long after the STOP light came on and a front wheel handbrake operating on discs offered more effective back up than weedy drum jobby at back.
Why didn'y other mfrs fir power brakes? Largely I suspect because the whole hydropneumatic system was (wrongly) regarded as feindishly complex and expensive to fix.
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>> System was amply demonstrated test driving first BX from a garage in
>> Berkhamsted when deer ran out in front of us near Ashurst college.
SO you are saying that no other car with conventional servo assisted braking would have been able to stop?
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>> SO you are saying that no other car with conventional servo assisted braking would have
>> been able to stop?
I thought your point was that the BX et al had overpowered brakes making them difficult to drive.
What I'm saying is HP brakes stopped car very quickly with minimal pedal effort and no fuss or drama. Having come from an unservoed Mini 850 City it was a pretty dramatic demonstration. This was in 1989 in a 1986 BX.
I would say modern servo assist has moved nearer to the sort of power the Cit system produced - both our Berlingos feel that way.
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>I thought your point was that the BX et al had overpowered brakes making them difficult to drive.
They were easy to use if you wanted to squash your nose on the screen to avoid the deer, being about the only option they offered.
>> I would say modern servo assist has moved nearer to the sort of power the
>> Cit system produced - both our Berlingos feel that way.
Again, how much power do you need? Why is everyone obsessed with power on brakes? I was able to lock the wheels on my 1970 servo assisted Ford Capri - more than that is a waste.
As for the mini? that was a direct consequence of it being out of date design wise. Its like comparing a Sopwith Camel with Concorde.
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>> Again, how much power do you need? Why is everyone obsessed with power on brakes?
>> I was able to lock the wheels on my 1970 servo assisted Ford Capri -
Mind you, to be fair it would have been nice if the rear wheels had brakes as well and didn't try and catch up with the fronts under braking.
I guess as there was no grip aft, they figured it didn't need brakes there either.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 15 Aug 14 at 12:18
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>> Largely I suspect because the whole hydropneumatic system was (wrongly) regarded as feindishly complex and expensive to fix. <<
Having had a couple of old BXs - both equipped with ABS, the braking was probably better than (or at least equal to) any other modern car. Working on the hydraulic system just requires a different mind set - something that is difficult to find in the traditional car trade enviroment. Replacement of the 'dreaded ' Octopus was an enjoyable, if somewhat different, job, worth doing, providing you had the facilities available.
Plenty of braking effort available even if the HP pump fails, the height (and loading) on the rear suspension is effectively used to provide the pressure. However if you choose to ignore the STOP indication you do put yourself into a position of potential difficulty:)
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>> Strangely these short travel, light pressure systems you seem to have so much trouble with
Seems to me you are the one with brake issues, unable to provide enough pressure it seems.
The first argument of a severe usability issue is to blame the user - in effect
what you are saying is that you had to modify your driving style used in every other car to overcome the control limitations of the brakes in the Citroen.
And as for the MB research, you conveniently seems to ignore the point they made that efficient EBA is not possible without ABS.
Now tell me, where was the ABS on your citroen system,? Hmmm?
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 15 Aug 14 at 11:22
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>> Now tell me, where was the ABS on your citroen system,? Hmmm?
ABS came to Citroen at much same time as all other mass market cars - when it became (a) cost effective and (b) mandatory. Fitted to late model BX, at least in higher powered/higher range models and standard on Xantia.
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The Citroen system was never supposed to be EBA so ABS not essential (but of course they did adopt it along with others... and in some way that took the edge off a pure Citroen "feel").
Just making the point it is accepted folks (not me I'm a great driver with effective brake control) do not find themselves able to brake as hard as they need.
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>> (not me I'm a great driver with
>> effective brake control)
Of course (bows - we mere mortals are not worthy)
I don't get that, at most accidents the police used to measure the skid marks, how much more pressure do you need to apply than to lock the wheels?
On the same point, why was ABS invented if people were not locking up the wheels under braking and therefore supplying more pressure than needed?
There is nothing wrong with powered brakes, cars have had them for decades, the servo is nothing more than another form of powering the brakes, BUT I maintain it was a far more useable method than the citroen one.
And now, with electronic control and monitoring, there is no reason why pure powered brakes can't be employed, bit it won't be with a stupid on/off short travel rubber bulb on the floor.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 15 Aug 14 at 11:37
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> It was a system that was so good, so well loved by the motoring public
>> that every maker flocked to copy it, and Citroen kept it going for years.
>>
>> Oh wait......
>>
Did not Rolls Royce/ Bentley use the Citroen high pressure brake system ?
IIRC Citroen fitted a conventional brake pedal that operated the button as the poor old Brits could not adapt to the idea that all you needed was a button for the brakes as the effort to operate cable/rod brakes was no longer required ?
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I drove a Xantia twice. The braking system was easy to use. BUT you had to adapt.
Given that the average driver expects to get into a car and drive without having to adapt, the system was not suited to modern drivers..
The Jazz brakes are very finely adjusted and can be very fierce.. many drivers ask Honda dealers to adjust them... but I find them OK... almost instant reaction at low speeds when you touch the pedal.
Many conventional systems with age and miles have a lot of travel needed to take up slack in the pads before braking starts to happen... (yes I know pads are supposed to be next to the disk but rust on the slides means in the real world...they do not).
Most drivers cars are NOT maintained as far as braking systems are concerned.. Slides etc are not copper greased every 2-3 years so the free sliding of parts becomes jerky. MOT fails or worn pads are the only cause of anyy maintenance for most.
Last edited by: madf on Fri 15 Aug 14 at 14:33
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>> Did not Rolls Royce/ Bentley use the Citroen high pressure brake system ?
>>
Also used the Citroen spheres in the suspension.
I flicked over TV Channels lunch time and "The Garage" program was showing the units being replaced. A sealed spares bag with the Bentley logos all over it was opened and the mechanic showed to the camera the embosed Citroen logo on the contents.
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>> Because they were ruddy stupid.
>>
I quite agree. On my BX I experienced an hydraulic failure which not only dropped the suspension but left me having to stop it with gears and handbrake from 60 mph. Not an experience I'm willing to repeat; that and the experience of working on my ex-girlfriend's hideous little Saxo put me off "Lemons" for life.
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What you are accustomed to driving that makes a big difference. I used an Oldsmobile Delta 88 for six weeks in the USA during the 70s. It had over assisted power everything. On my return to the UK I jumped into a BMC MINI and found the steering so heavy and brakes so poor that I took it to a garage for a check, this had the mechanics puzzled as they found no fault with it. I have driven cars with obvious faults which the usual driver has not noticed because of gradual deterioration which they have subconsciously compensated for in their driving style.
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Gosh it's difficult to know how to put this without sounding glib but here goes anyway, cars are just machines designed by humans for use by humans. They are not difficult to operate safely given a bit of practice.
They all differ, sometimes slightly, sometimes more noticeably, but ultimately they all function at least similarly.
Given a mile or two of familiarisation anyone with a modicum of of ability and experience can 'feel' the dynamics of a given vehicle and adapt their input to its strengths and weaknesses.
I wouldn't like to guess how many different cars I've driven in all manner of circumstances but in the end they were just cars. Not space shuttles. Some slow, some fast, some large, some small, some with sharp brakes, some with almost none, some with good handling, some with a deficit in that department, but fundamentally just cars.
Like a musical instrument or a horse, you just have to get to know it a bit and take charge. It's not actually all that hard.
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>>Like a musical instrument or a horse, you just have to get to know it a bit and take charge. It's not actually all that hard...
Or, more likely, a female...:-)
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Are you really in charge, Stuart?
If so, it must be all those different things you do with different musical instruments.....
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>>If so, it must be all those different things you do with different musical instruments.....>>
Or on the back seat of a car with a female...:-)
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>> Given a mile or two of familiarisation anyone with a modicum of of ability and experience can 'feel' the dynamics of a given vehicle and adapt their input to its strengths and weaknesses.
You spend a lot of time on the road Humph, more than most I would think.
How come you haven't noticed that a quarter to a half of other car drivers on the road don't have that modicum of ability, however long they've been driving, or in many cases the brain power to go with it?
I think your inherent good nature is leading you astray here.
On another level, you appear to be in denial about your knowledgeable interest in the automobile as a machine.
You should smoke more comrade. I have your best interests at heart. A man should be mellow at 10.30, unless the TV news has been particularly annoying.
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>>>Given a mile or two of familiarisation anyone with a modicum of of ability and experience can 'feel' the dynamics of a given vehicle and adapt their input to its strengths and weaknesses
Wot e said...
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Old tech that you would like to have in a new car - madf
