www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-28834774
Long convoys of automated lorries with drivers relaxing and reading the Sun could be on a motorway near you soon.
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How long before employers decide we shouldn't be 'on pay' while doing this?!
Pat
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The long term economic logic is surely that you only need one driver to take a convoy of trucks from a depot in London to a depot in Manchester. The journeys to and form the depot could be handled by local drivers.
Makes economic sense
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>> Makes economic sense
To transport operators, not lorry drivers. And one wonders whether throwing Pat and her comrades on the scrapheap will really save money. Perhaps their wages will seem a bearable cost when compared to the open-ended contracts that offshore American-owned tech companies will require to keep those trucks bowling along on the curved but narrow.
'Sorry those petrol tankers ran off the road and barbecued that village and its inhabitants, but we warned you you needed an urgent hardware and software upgrade... '
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"And one wonders whether throwing Pat and her comrades on the scrapheap will really save money. "
They said that about factory workers, coal miners, dock workers, typists, retail workers etc.etc.
Don't personally like the idea but it makes economic sense and something like it seems inevitable.
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>> And one wonders whether throwing Pat and her comrades
>> on the scrapheap will really save money.
>>
They said that when the motor car and lorry came in.
"What about the blacksmiths, the ostlers, the coach men, the farriers, the postillions, the outriders, the grooms, old Uncle Tom Cobbley an all"
It's progress man, you can't stand in the way of progress.
Mind you, it won't happen in our lifetimes. Anyone like to have a small wager on it?
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Or you could put them on some sort of rail, with one very big engine at one end. I think I should patent this idea cos no one seems to have thought of it before.
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Yeah, yeah.
What are all Pat's bright-eyed bushy-tailed young apprentices going to do then? Drive forklifts at B&Q? Drink strong lager on the steps of the Albert Memorial?
Long-distance driving is a noble profession. But the modern world scorns that sort of thing, bad cess to it.
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>> Yeah, yeah.
>>
>> What are all Pat's bright-eyed bushy-tailed young apprentices going to do then? Drive forklifts at
>> B&Q? Drink strong lager on the steps of the Albert Memorial?
>>
>> Long-distance driving is a noble profession. But the modern world scorns that sort of thing,
>> bad cess to it.
>>
They said all that when the flying shuttle came in, the steam engine, the internal combustion engine, etc. etc.
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-28834774
convoy of lorries to travel just a few feet from each other, with just the driver at the front in control.
See that on the A14 any day of the week, only the driver at the front can see.
Sometimes two lines of them
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.... you only need one driver to take a convoy of trucks from a depot in London to a depot in Manchester....
Didn't that used to be called a Goods Train ?
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Pat will be able to do her knitting at work. :)
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One would assume that something like this could go pear-shaped in less than a second; a tyre blow-out, computer failure, turbo disintegrated, the list is endless. With that in mind, I hardly think that any of the drivers of the following vehicles would be allowed to be either eating or reading a book, and they certainly wouldn't be relaxing; well I certainly wouldn't.
The consequences of something like this going horribly wrong, simply do not bear thinking about. For the very same reasons I cannot see insurers being interested in covering the risks should the developers decide to go one stage further and dispense with all but one of the drivers. I would also think there might be legal niceties to consider.
It might look like a good idea on paper, and presumably accountants in their remote ivory towers in the fantasy land of overall cost reduction; will look favourably on anything which reduces the wage bill; but what happens at traffic lights for a start? This sort of thing couldn't possibly work efficiently on anything but the longest and most uninterrupted stretches of motorway.
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It won't be easy to match up the drivers hours of work and statutory breaks either.
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>> It won't be easy to match up the drivers hours of work and statutory breaks
>> either.
>>
Which leads us to another question; in the eyes of the law, would it be classed as double manning? For the benefit of others, this allows an extended working day.
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>> The consequences of something like this going horribly wrong,
Harrumph. I would refer everyone to my post of 17.30 above.
And to my lengthy piece on self-driving cars for clueless intellectuals, published in July 2013.
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>> One would assume that something like this could go pear-shaped in less than a second;
>> a tyre blow-out, computer failure, turbo disintegrated, the list is endless.
I watched 'I robot' last night.
I never did trust 'robots' of which a self driving vehicle is a type....
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I really don't think its economic. If you have a load of containers going to the same place you bung them on a train, trucks on the road are going to lots of different places.
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>> I really don't think its economic. If you have a load of containers going to
>> the same place you bung them on a train, trucks on the road are going
>> to lots of different places.
>>
The only logical use I can see for this sort of idea would base itself on the principle of slip coaches which used to be common on express trains up till about the 1950's; that is, the convoy would proceed for example from London up the M1 with vehicles in order leaving it at various points to deliver to places en route. I fail to see how it would gain much benefit in terms of cost and time saving; perhaps it might work better in mainland Europe or America where trunking distances are greater.
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If one vehicle is "attached" to the one a few feet in front by a virtual connection, that makes it a trailer surely? Aren't there rules about how long a trailer can be, and limiting the number of trailers?
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Seems very sensible. And no doubt the unions will be up in arms about the loss of jobs, much as luddites have always been against change.
Without mechanisation and the concomitant job losses, we would all still be living in mud huts - and there wouldn't be unions at all.
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Lousy working conditions created Unions.Change is good if it is done responsible.
People on the dole is not good.The way the world is going we all be living in mud huts soon.>:)
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I agree entirely.
I was just wondering about the legalities and practicalities of operating what will be in effect be "road trains". Surely the rearmost vehicle will have to display a warning sign, like Long Vehicle, or people are going to get caught out trying to overtake one and discovering half way along that there are actually a dozen inter-connected vehicles.
What about when lanes merge? The front half of the train will have merged, the back half still trying to cut across into a lane that has probably filled up with other vehicles.
What happens when it comes off at a junction and meets traffic lights on the roundabout?
The front mightl cross on green - what about the last lorry?
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Thera are of course all things that have to be worked out. That is why they need trials. I doubt that these convoys will be negotiating roads with roundabouts and traffic lights.
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They will have to leave the motorway somewhere, usually at a roundabout, often one with traffic lights.
If the convoy is going to break up at that point, then there will have to be a system for waking up the "driver" and telling him his services are required again. Or are the following lorries to be driverless - what happens then?
It's a fascinating prospect, these driverless vehicles, but some basic questions seem so obvious it's odd that they never appear to have been addressed. Oh well, I expect the first experiment will be interesting.
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You need to envisage a certain amount of change.
Imagine purpose built truck depots just off the motorway accessible by their own slip roads.
For loads coming from the London area say and going to the Manchester area are driven to the local depot by local drivers. They are then formed into convoys of perhaps twenty trucks and driven up the motorway. Only one driver is needed. You don't need 19 drivers sitting doing nothing. At the Manchester depot local drivers take over and drive them to their final destination. That is a huge saving in driver's time and wages which is the main cost involved in the freight industry.
Of course there are issues with rules and regulation as they are at present but anything can be changed. Even the roads themselves which could incorporate dedicated truck lanes.
The new technology will change the way we think about transport.
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>> You don't need 19 drivers sitting doing nothing.
Yes you do.
What happens in an emergency?
How do a dozen or so trucks change lane in concert?
How do people access the motorway when an unbroken line of trucks passes a slip road)
8o(
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If the system truly works and the trucks are connected virtually but just as effectively as if they were connected physically you would no more need 19 spare drivers than you do in a railway train.
There are certainly a lot of problems to be overcome but the potential for economic savings are huge so some system utilising this technology will surely be implemented.
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>>saving in driver's time and wages which is the main cost involved in the freight industry.
<<
Oh no it isn't, fuel is the main cost.
Pat
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This might be worth all the hassle if railways had not been invented. Anyone who has driven in Australia where you can get four trailer road trains on suburban main roads will know how difficult this would be on crowded UK roads.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 19 Aug 14 at 15:27
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>> Anyone who has driven in Australia where you can get four trailer road trains on suburban main roads
Australian trucks are the real thing, almost as good as American ones. If you choose the wrong motel in one of those Aussie wild-west-looking small towns you can be kept awake all night by their snorting exhaust brakes... 'Guh, are you snoring darling?' 'Uh, why did you wake me up?' All night long. Enough to put one off one's steak with fried eggs for breakfast.
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>> The new technology will change the way we think about transport.
Yes, 'by the mid-2020s, if not before' (AC on self-driving cars, NLR 82 July/Aug 2013, ponce ponce). Most of the changes will be unwelcome from a car person's point of view.
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In the UK you would need a dedicated road system, similar to the guided bus systems. The Australian suburban main roads I mentioned above are often better than our motorways but with junctions and traffic lights. I am thinking of the Great Eastern Highway, Tonkin Highway, Roe Highway, and Great Northern Highway to the East of Perth WA. Mixing it with road trains concentrates the mind on the task of driving!
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 19 Aug 14 at 16:28
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... Hey Pigpen, this here's Rubber Duck, and I'm about to go a'huntin' bear...
A lot of decent lines in that song, different ones from different parts of the (frankly thuggish and stupid, my sort of thing) movie.
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The sun must be well over your yardarm! :)
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I'm not a navy man ratted from morning till night ON. Never touch a drop until 6 and I've just sunk my teeth into the first very strong V8 and vodka b***** mary thing, no hot tabasco but the essential is enough vodka to taste through all the other flavours. Then you know you're all right.
While I was pouring it herself carped that I am a self-indulgent slob with no sense of moderation. On the contrary I am a person of iron self-discipline. Very rare for me to drink in the day, special occasions only.
They do say of course that self-imposed drinking rules are a sign of incipient alcoholism. It's just that I'm old enough not to find that too threatening.
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I know you're all longing to know.
The second maria sanglante using the other half of the lemon had some special hot pepper sauce thing plus a bit less of everything else including vodka.Even better, but smaller. Now I'm on the third, but orange juice as usual, another smallish one.
Will my iron discipline keep me to one more smallish one, even that risking going a bit over budget and forecasts? I have a feeling it may not. The flesh is weak. Pray for me, curse me or cackle harshly, as is your wont.
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I cannot but admire your capacity to imbibe Vodka, Lud. I'm not very keen on the stuff. I resisted the urge to have a beer with my meagre, pensioner's meal this evening but I'm happily settled in front of the PC with a small plate of crackers and Brie together with a large glass of Ardbeg. Will round off with a cup of tea later, though.
Salut !
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>> A lot of decent lines in that song, different ones from different parts of the (frankly thuggish and stupid, my sort of thing) movie.
There was jeeps and tanks and amoured cars and trucks of every size
And (something something something), and choppers filled the skies
...... and the Illinois National Guard:
They had (hum hum hum) and (hum hum hum)
They even had a bear in the air...
Sorry I can only remember fragments, and can't be bothered to google.
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When one is a certain advanced age, does it really matter if one becomes addicted to painkillers or booze?
It's not as though one will have a lifetime to regret it.
OTH I'm in one of my self-imposed codeine free periods and have resisted Tramadol for at least a fortnight!
(My GP won't prescribe the latter now - too addictive he says and I only have 40 left).
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20 odd years ago I was put on Temgesic for diabetic neuropathy in the feet. They also gave you another tablet to help if the Temgesic made you feel sick.
The painkillers seemed to be highly addictive, I found I was taking one when I felt low or tired. Awful things........chucked 'em all down the toilet and went onto Co-Dydramol which I've been on ever since with no ill effects.
I believe addicts would crush the Temgesics, dissolve them in water and inject.....ugh!
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>>
>> .chucked 'em all down the toilet
Someone else downstream is now drinking your recycled purified waste and getting hooked on your tablets.
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SQ
>> The new technology will change the way we think about transport.
You could not possibly run those things economically and safely on the existing road network, except between a few specific RDC's and even then they'd need convoy escorts to protect dozy car drivers from both the trucks and each other, thus cancelling out the manpower saving. You only have to observe what happens when a relatively unpretentious abnormal load goes along the motorway; I'm talking something as mundane as a mobile home, not those dirty great power station things.
Want it all you like. Unless new roads (or extra designated lanes) are built to accommodate these convoys, it simply will not happen because the topography of the UK will not allow it, and for that matter neither will the environmentalists once they've worked out how many great crested newts will be disturbed.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 21 Aug 14 at 10:34
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What happens at a junction, I drive down the sliproad to find a mile long line of trucks in the inside lane - difficult to filter in.
Similarly what happens at an exit . . . . .
Stupid and dangerous idea unless they are on a dedicated road and that is known as a railway.
Last edited by: IJWS14 on Thu 21 Aug 14 at 08:06
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>> Want it all you like. Unless new roads (or extra designated lanes) are built to
>> accommodate these convoys, it simply will not happen
Exactly.
It simply will not happen, at least not in our lifetimes!
Last edited by: Duncan on Thu 21 Aug 14 at 09:02
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Another piece of recycled info about 'Convoy' which may amuse some and may annoy others. Its star and central character was at the same Oxford College as me in the late fifties, a Marshall or Rhodes scholar I think doing a 2-year PhD or second degree. No doubt he completed his course (I certainly didn't complete mine).
I didn't know him but noticed his unusual name painted at the bottom of his staircase. No one should be fooled by that laid-back far west accent. Good ol' boys come in all shapes and sizes.
For some reason I am reminded of his cameo performance as a relatively kindly but unscrupulous rapist - featuring the laid-back far west accent - encountered by the central characters in 'Two-Lane Blacktop'. A few years in live theatre wouldn't surprise me at all, but I wouldn't know. Of course he got into movies after being first noticed as a folk singer, pretty bland I thought.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Fri 22 Aug 14 at 00:21
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Mercy sakes alive, looks like we got us a convoy - Pat
