This might qualify as technical, but I think this forum gets more traffic.. :-)
I'm just about to replace the drive chain on my old Suzuki 500. Most road bikes use O-ring chains (I'm getting a swanky X-ring one this time, but the principle is the same) that seal the main lubricant in and keep most of the crud out.
I have always used a fairly thick 'chain lube' which is a bit sticky but seems to quieten the operation, possibly at the expense of attracting dirt and making a fair bit of mess, and turning into a fine grinding paste at the same time.
It can be argued that the chain needs no additional lubrication, if the rollers roll as intended and everything stays reasonably clean. I read a comment on a bike forum to this effect, from someone who was using just an occasional squirt of WD40 to keep the rust at bay, but this met with a mixed response, and I thought I would canvas opinion here.
There are 'chain waxes' that are supposed to keep water out and smooth the operation, but I've no experience of those, having had the one tin of Silkolene grease for a decade! Any thoughts/experience appreciated...
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An acquaintance of mine swore by chain wax when he was riding, and I've inherited his leftovers now he's stopped having bikes.
It remains in the garage as yet untested while I finish my current tin of traditional "thick" lube, but my hopes are high for the future.
From memory the chain wax is supposed to be more fling resistant than other types of lubricant, so more stays on the chain rather than coating the rear wheel.
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Chain wax is the only thing that works on my cars sunroof external rails.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 20 Aug 14 at 18:08
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ON
Is that just for preservation, or is there something to lubricate..?
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>> ON
>>
>> Is that just for preservation, or is there something to lubricate..?
>>
Lubrication, the front glass section slides over the rear glass with two sliding runners (plastic or nylon blocks?) sliding in concealed external rails. Without lube the roof judders slightly, wax is the only thing that lasts.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 20 Aug 14 at 18:42
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"more fling resistant"
That sounds plausible. I think it's also meant to be better at shedding dirt, which is desirable. A long time ago, before O-rings appeared in chains, I used to boil them up on the stove in Linklyfe, which was a glorious combination of moly disulphide, grease and wax, and was probably a contributory factor in my first divorce...
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I switched to wax on my GSX-R750 last year.
A lot less mess and lasts longer too in my experience.
I did c.700 miles earlier this year in a oner. No need for chain maintenance unlike other chain lubes. Also handy for sealing car electrics rather than using tape in the boot cavity.
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What are those Scottoilers like he asks?
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You want a long distance bike ? Buy a shaft drive.
Scottoiler works but drops oil on the chain that flings. Give me wax on a sports bike or a 1400 Kwacker with a shaft drive and 160 horses any day.
Last edited by: gmac on Wed 20 Aug 14 at 19:31
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Clean with paraffin soaked rag and toothbrush or Muc Off chain degreaser and spray off with hose. Allow to dry. Then application of PTFE chain dry lube. I prefer it to those heavy grease lubes that catch the dirt and end up like grinding paste.
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Those are big thick chains on Blackbirds Fullchat. How long do yours last ?
I typically replace the chain and sprocket set every 2/3 years or less than 6k miles.
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I use spray grease on the chains on the Morgan. Don't know what size is on bikes, but mine is 3/4" British Standard - which is different to American chain, even at the same width.
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Funnily enough, modern chains are still Imperial, with 1/8" as the base, so a 520 chain is 5/8 pitch and 2/8 (1/4) internal width. Comforting, I find...
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FJR - shaft drive.
Triumph Sprint - changed at about 6K because the first keeper had neglected it. Approaching 11K and still in good shape.
But they are garage queens.
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Thanks to all for the feedback. I'll buy some wax, I think, as I'm not quite brave enough to rely on just WD40...
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WD will stop a squeaky hinge but it's not a lubricant. WD stands for water dispersant and that's what it was developed for.
No chains at Ontaltwin Towers. Velocette is a shafty and the Honda 600 has a belt drive.......going back to WW1 there !
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I see WD40 do chain wax - now I'm really confused: www.wd40specialistmotorbike.co.uk/product-range/chainwax/
I thought I'd grasped the concept of "O" and "X" rings, but "Z" rings are a new one on me.
Last edited by: bathtub tom on Wed 20 Aug 14 at 23:24
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I have an old Fireblade, and never use anything on the chain. It's a low miler, and doesn't usually get wet, and haven't had any problems. The chain links are plated anyway, and most of the lubes just get filthy and need cleaning. I work on the theory it's easier to replace the chain every 5 years, than messing about with lube and subsequent cleaning.
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Dave
That was pretty much the thrust of the comment I saw suggesting WD-40, which was only proposed to keep the rollers from rusting when not in use. I shall want to put something on it, though, as it's a very old habit!
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BT
Z-rings are new to me, too. I found this (there's a drawing just below the photo) but it doesn't look very Z-like - more like an X-ring that's been squashed!
www.cycletreads.co.nz/products/1443-regina_chains/9182-regina_o_ring_and_z_ring_chain.aspx
Incidentally, the principal component of WD-40 is fish oil, which presumably does have some lubrication properties and would certainly be water-resistant. I imagine that the distinctive smell is an attempt to disguise its origins...
Last edited by: J Bonington Jagworth on Thu 21 Aug 14 at 09:13
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"the Honda 600 has a belt drive"
That doesn't sound standard - is it a third-party one? I've often thought of modern belts as the ideal solution - clean, quiet, efficient and light, but not apparently popular, except with Harley-Davidson, whose products are probably more prone to chain snatch than most! Kawaski dabbled with it a few years back with their 305, but I did wonder if the chain-makers squeezed the market somehow. I'd have a belt drive tomorrow if it was an affordable option.
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Bog standard JBJ. FJS600....Power like a turbine and delivered in a smooth and gentlemanly manner.
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"FJS600"
I see now - it's a scooter... :-)
I'm still convinced that the chain-makers have the bike market in an arm-lock somehow!
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I clean the crud off with WD40 and usually lube with nice thick gear oil. I've tried wax, but it seems to collect grit and wear rollers and sprockets.
I've only changed the chain once on my '98 R1 at 25000 miles and it's currently on just over 100,000 miles on that DID replacement (although it's had two front sprockets in that time).
KTM single seems to destroy chains in 6000 miles, but worth it for the bottom end kick.
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I'm not a big fan of these chain waxes or dry lubes - I don't think they lubricate the chain enough. I have seen a couple of chains that have almost seized up on the links courtesy of using Wurth Dry Lube, my missus's bike being one of them and that was a not very old Tsubaki chain! Plus it also ragged the front sprocket, the wear on it was phenomenal.
Personally I have always used a proper chain lube (I have used Motul Factory Line for a number of years), okay they usually give off a bit of fling but I must be doing something right - I currently have put in excess of 24,000 miles on my R6, still on the original chain and still looking in good shape.
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Push Bike.
I assume the same principles apply to push bike chains as to motorbike chains?
No?
I degreased my hybrid bike chain this week and used some of the oil supplied with the Aldi chain cleaner tool. This is a device which clips onto the lower run of the chain, it has a degreaser in a little bath and three brushes to make the chain run through the degreaser. I oiled the chain with the oil supplied. Job done.
Or is it?
I am reluctant to purchase the proprietary chain cleaners - and chain oil, because I think they are a ridiculous price. Why shouldn't I use the degreaser that Screwfix stock and the motor oil, of which I have lots in my garage?
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I used to soak my push bike chain in engine oil, as it had got rusty and squeeked all the time. Major problem when trouser leg came in contact with chain, and eventually the damn thing snapped anyway, while climbing a steep hill.
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Push bike chains are the same (in principle) as non O-ring motorbike chains, which are now mostly used for off-road machines, on the basis that they will have to be cleaned after use and O-rings wouldn't survive for long anyway.
Road bikes now nearly all use O-ring (or XYZ ring) chains that seal the 'working' grease inside the rollers, but the question arises of what to do with the exposed elements, which theoretically don't need oiling. I think some grease helps, but wax may be less attractive to dirt, or WD-40 may be enough. There is some friction where the chain meets and leaves the sprockets, which I wouldn't want to leave completely dry...
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Whatever you use, do not use WD40 on it. Horace Ontaltwin has already said so, and I echo it.
WD40 works as a water displacer as it attracts water and any water on the site falls away with the excess WD40. Trouble is, the WD40 that stays behind carries on attracting moisture and the stuff is a very poor lubricant to boot. Just about any regular oil is better!
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>> Push Bike.
>>
>> I assume the same principles apply to push bike chains as to motorbike chains?
Push bike chains are relatively light duty compared to those on PTWs. Nonetheless they do wear and if ridden worn then in turn cause rapid wearing of chainwheels and sprockets.
As with PTW chains the lubricant is only needed within rollers and where plates meet. Excess elsewhere attracts grit which of course acts like grinding paste. Whatever lubricant is used whether 3 in 1, proprietary 'dry' lube or GT85* the excess should be carefully wiped off.
Cleaning is best done with chain off bike. For this you need either a chain with 'magic' join link or a rivet tool to break it. Chain is then placed in an old PET bottle (the sort that once held fizzy drinks or even bitter ale) along with 500ml of white spirit or paraffin. Shake vigorously. Drain bottle (decanting liquid as once the gunk has settled it can be re-used). Allow chain to dry then re-install and lubricate/wipe as above.
Filthy chains may need a second treatment.
* Although similar to WD40 this does lubricate as it contains PTFE. While others will decry its merit it works on my fleet.
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"KTM single seems to destroy chains in 6000 miles, "
Interesting. I suspect that engines with, shall we say, uneven power delivery are harder on chains, which is probably why Harleys now have belts!
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I've had a bike chain let go on me. It looked all shiny and new and used traditional chain oil.
I was lucky it missed my leg and only damaged plastic panels on the bike. That's why I now replace the chain and sprocket sets as part of regular maintenance.
Call me paranoid, I've had one lucky escape I'm not going to push my luck.
Last edited by: gmac on Fri 22 Aug 14 at 12:32
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>> "the Honda 600 has a belt drive"
>>
>> That doesn't sound standard - is it a third-party one? I've often thought of modern
>> belts as the ideal solution - clean, quiet, efficient and light, but not apparently popular,
>> except with Harley-Davidson, whose products are probably more prone to chain snatch than most! Kawaski
>> dabbled with it a few years back with their 305, but I did wonder if
>> the chain-makers squeezed the market somehow. I'd have a belt drive tomorrow if it was
>> an affordable option.
>>
They're fine till they go wrong. On the Sportster replacing the belt is an easy job which can be done by the roadside; big twins require major surgery, in some cases removal of the swinging arm and most of the transmission.
I find the belts a mixed blessing; they're certainly cleaner and require less intensive maintenance, but the downside to that of course is that inexperienced owners tend to ignore them. They do require re-tensioning, usually after a tyre change; this is where things can go wrong because the setting and wheel alignment, for obvious reasons, have to be more precise than would be the case with chain drive. Too loose and it will slip, too tight and not only will the belt snap but the extra forces put on the pulleys can cause transmission damage. a wise man would also replace the pulleys at the same time as the belt; this was also good advice back in the day with chains and sprockets.
Properly cared for (and this includes ensuring that the guards are correctly fitted) a belt can last for over 70,000 miles. The downside of course is that it can last for as little as 700.
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chain guards are unsightly but must be worth there weight in gold , honda 50/70/90 range?
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All I see here is 32 replies making a good case for owning a car rather than a bike.
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But if you like chains (ooh mummy) and cars, can I recommend the Frazer Nash?
i66.photobucket.com/albums/h254/Dinkel_photos/Spa30092006/P9302181.jpg
Never driven one but have had a ride in one, went shopping for gin with the owner...
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Blimey SP, is the hammer for adjustment? At least you can change the final ratio with a mere 4 sprockets!
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Blimey SP, is the hammer for adjustment? At least you can change the final ratio with a mere 4 sprockets!
No idea, not my photo, but it was the nicest one that Google found when I looked.
They are a fast car for the capacity as a chain 'gearbox' transmits the power very efficiently compared with a gearbox and back axle. Coupled with weight saving (no differential either) they go rather well and I'm told are very enjoyable to drive, unless you don't like old cars and their weird controls.
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No need to mess about with the chains and sprockets to change ratios. Look closely at the front end of the chains, you'll see a sliding dog arrangement mounted just in front of the diff!
If there wasn't a diff it'd only need half the number of chains.
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No need to mess about with the chains and sprockets to change ratios. Look closely at the front end of the chains, you'll see a sliding dog arrangement mounted just in front of the diff!
I've tried and failed to find a good explanation of the Frazer Nash transmission. However, it does not have a differential and the back axle is a solid one. It selects the chain in use with a dog arrangement, so from that point of view, is the same as my 2 speeder Morgan.
Quite nice account of driving one here:
www.historicracer.com/features/elektron-frazer-nash-on-track/
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>>Traction for these cars (with no differential) was remarkable
I stand corrected, as I assumed the linkage that selects the chain was sitting on the nose of a diff.
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bathtub tom said
I assumed the linkage that selects the chain was sitting on the nose of a diff.
Apologies for not saying earlier, but the thing you thought was a diff is just a simple bevel box to turn the drive through 90 degrees. That part is very similar to the one on a Morgan 3 wheeler
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SP - thanks for the link. I like the matter-of-fact description of events: "However in the race the car selected two chains at once and instantly retired".
That must have been an interesting moment!
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>> Quite nice account of driving one here:
>> www.historicracer.com/features/elektron-frazer-nash-on-track/
Perhaps... but I was put off by the writer calling it a vintage car. Being post-1931 it's really a post-vintage throroughbred.
Apart from that, the link was slow to load and stuck about a third of the way down. That's probably a problem at this end though.
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>> But if you like chains (ooh mummy) and cars, can I recommend the Frazer Nash?
>>
>> i66.photobucket.com/albums/h254/Dinkel_photos/Spa30092006/P9302181.jpg
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>> Never driven one but have had a ride in one, went shopping for gin with
>> the owner...
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I wouldn't want all those chains thrashing round inches from my bum!
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>> I wouldn't want all those chains thrashing round inches from my bum!
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Parry-Thomas lost his head big time at Pendine Sands when Babs let go !
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>> All I see here is 32 replies making a good case for owning a car
>> rather than a bike.
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As long as it doesn't have a chain in the engine you might have a point.
Don't trust chains, work of the devil.
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Does your car not require maintenance then, Zero? Perhaps you mean that you don't do it yourself.. :-)
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>> Does your car not require maintenance then, Zero? Perhaps you mean that you don't do
>> it yourself.. :-)
I do, but I don't have to do it every 500 miles, and it does not thank me by chucking the oil back at me.
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"I don't have to do it every 500 miles"
Nor do I - 5000 miles more like, and the first one lasted three times that. In any case, fixing bikes is quite therapeutic and you can generally feel the benefit immediately, which is not so often the case with cars.
For further reading, see Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, by Robert Pirsig (who I was pleased to discover had been a fellow technical author).
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"chain guards are unsightly"
This is one of the better-looking ones (IMHO)...
www.jawamotorcycles.co.uk/retro.html
Shame they're not more popular (both the guard and the bike).
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Similar guards were fitted to Harley FLT's in the early 1980's, before the belt drives took over.
MZ was another who fitted enclosed chains as stock IIRC.
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Having got the new chain and attempted to fit, I now discover (rather belatedly) that there is more than one way of joining a chain. Hello to the riveted link :-(
Fortunately I was able to re-use the original spring-clipped link, although I had better replace it with a new one PDQ, but whose idea was it to make a link that needs a special tool to apply and an angle grinder to remove..?
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Bike chain lubrication - Mr PDA
