Police number plate recognition camera rules tightened
(The 4,000-strong fixed location ones)
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10504653.stm
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We're all going to die! ;-)
Wont somebody please think of the children! This move will make us less safe. It's tantamount to aiding and abetting terrorists!
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The police will fight this, without cameras to do a part of their work they will have to leave the office and do some real policing.
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ON,
Brunstrom's replacement in North Wales is decidedly cool towards speed cameras both fixed and mobile - in particular he's keen to re-build bridges with motorists - presumably not making the news for the usual reasons. MCN ran a story a couple of weeks ago saying that the camera partnerships will be axed next year.
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>> The police will fight this, without cameras to do a part of their work they
>> will have to leave the office and do some real policing.
>>
Earth to ON..when an ANPR camera is activated, how do you think the car gets stopped.
ANPR is a fantastic tool. Sadly, many of the success we achieve either are not reported or cannot be made public. There are many serious criminals behind bars because of it. My only regret is that we simply can't stop every car that activates it. There are thousands of hits every day in the area where I work. If anybody thinks that the ordinary Joe is somehow being 'tracked', they need to replace the tinfoil on their head.
Last edited by: midlifecrisis on Mon 5 Jul 10 at 09:45
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..they need to replace the tinfoil on their head...
Isn't natural selection a wonderful thing?
Somehow or other, only intelligent people become policemen and the rest of us are all stupid.
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So do you think we're all sat there tracking the millions of car on the roads every day?
If you can't see the point I was making, then perhaps an extra layer might be appropriate.
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i think ifithelps can see the point much clearer than you can to be honest
the clue is in his words
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Hate to be a party pooper but I like the idea of ANPR when used for all the right reasons and don't really care whether I'm being tracked. I have no connection or contact with the police (except for one recent camera van ticket, and another I got away with, and watching Road Wars) but it does seem to bring a much more scientific approach to the apprehension of some real villains.
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smokie that's fine for now.
And MLC i'm 100% sure you are all very nice, decent folks (near enough my whole family's 'in').
But the next folks might not be.
I'm not completely anti ANPR, i think it's a fantastic tool if it were implemented properly.
When a "hot" plate goes by, record it, timestamp it, flag it up etc. etc. yes, but when joe punter goes by, there is absolutely no reason for his number to be logged and time stamped, that database, just flat out plain should not exist.
EDIT: *that database of joe punters, not the hot ones
Last edited by: CraigP on Mon 5 Jul 10 at 11:04
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The ordinary Joe is not, IFAIU, being tracked in the sense of followed at every turn but ANPR can be set to 'ping' the movements of a suspect vehicle in real time. I'm not too bothered about that.
OTOH how far back can it go? If my car came under suspicion retrospectively I'd have trouble accounting for where it was reported as being on the 5th July 2008 (or proving it was elsewhere).
How far is there any real evidence (even a Daily Mail story will do!) of state run ANPR being abused.
Frankly I'm more bothered about the private sort that sends out 'fines' for overstaying at Focus DIY or wherever!!!!
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>> I like the idea of ANPR when used for all the right reasons and don't really care
>> whether I'm being tracked.
Here are two points.
a) The use of ANPR (or any other such data-gathering system).
b) "Tracking" ordinary people.
I have no problem at all with, for comparison, the use of video (cctv) for recording people (including me), as long as the film is used only for investigating particular incidents, rather than for "tracking" of the population at large.
I have no problem with ANPR used similarly.
I have a big, big problem with centralised databases used for purposes other than sorting out particular incidents, especially when these are linked - these are very undesirable indeed.
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>> We're all going to die! ;-)
>>
>> Wont somebody please think of the children! This move will make us less safe. It's
>> tantamount to aiding and abetting terrorists!
>>
>>
No, we're not all going to die but, yes, no doubt this will aid criminals including terrorists.
People bleat on about crime and the police not doing enough but then, a decade into the 21st century, we still despise the use of technology because of some vague liberal nightmare of shadowy governments and power crazed police forces.
People should stop buying into such twaddle and spend a bit more time in the real world, where people's lives are often blighted by crime.
What we need saving from is the modern day Luddite...
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Oh, and another thing...while I am on a rant :)
People seem to suggest that terrorism doesn't cost many lives (you're more likely to die choking on cornflakes etc). Well, if you want to see how many live 9/11 took, you need to start counting all the people that have died from the violence in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Yeah, maybe we didn't need to attack those countries but, if anybody believes that the next big attack won't trigger a war or two they are kidding themselves.
For all his fine speeches, Obama's military is still chucking missles all over the place in Pakistan, and there hasn't been a major attack on US soil in almost 10 years.
Just wait until a big attack on the West does get through...about 0.01% of the people who die because of it will be in the West.
Last edited by: SteelSpark on Mon 5 Jul 10 at 11:35
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what does worry me about ANPR is when it is used outside it's intended scope.
for example, an old couple were on a program some years ago (I can't remember the program), they would be pulled at every ANPR section as they had a 'marker' placed on their car.
As they had been to a few protest marches they had a section 51 (I believe its called) placed on their car.
They had been marked as a threat to the security of this country.
I.E. they were labelled as terrorists.
How stupid.
Freedom of speak down the drain there.
Or another example that would worry me, what if the vehicle is marked on the ANPR database yet the vehicle has been sold on to another owner ?
Do they get tugged every time they go through an ANPR, yet they are the new owners and have nothing to do with the time when the marker was placed on the vehicle ?
How easy is it to have a marker removed if placed on the car.
Other than that ANPR is a good tool and certainly catches criminals
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>> no doubt this will aid criminals including terrorists.
How so?
>> we still despise the use of technology because of some vague
>> liberal nightmare of shadowy governments and power crazed police forces.
No, we jolly well don't "despise" the use of technology, but we certainly do, quite correctly, need safeguards against the misuse of it.
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>> >> no doubt this will aid criminals including terrorists.
>>
>> How so?
Reducing the number of cameras and reducing the time that the data is kept would certainly seem to reduce the chance of using that information as evidence and as a way to identify patterns of criminal behaviour.
>> >> we still despise the use of technology because of some vague
>> >> liberal nightmare of shadowy governments and power crazed police forces.
>>
>> No, we jolly well don't "despise" the use of technology, but we certainly do, quite
>> correctly, need safeguards against the misuse of it.
What exactly are we safeguarding against?
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>> >> >> no doubt this will aid criminals including terrorists.
>> >>
>> >> How so?
>>
>> Reducing the number of cameras and reducing the time that the data is kept would
>> certainly seem to reduce the chance of using that information as evidence and as a
>> way to identify patterns of criminal behaviour.
Reducing the number of cameras seems only to be taking place in one area. Reducing the time that these data are kept may or may not affect matters. Do you disagree with proper regulation?
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This seems to be a very good thing. "Proper accountability and safeguards in the use of this database" are indeed overdue. This government seem to be doing the right thing, which is laudable.
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On a purely personal level, the inception of ANPR has been a bit of a nuisance. Formerly, one could tootle about for a couple of days after your tax or MoT had expired safe in the knowledge that, as long as you sorted before the week was out, you'd be grand.
Now, though, sod's law dictates that you'd be pulled before you'd got too far. Don't get me wrong, people who don't renew their tax at all (especially those with big, posh, expensive cars) or those that don't bother with an MoT because they know that their car will fail, really annoy me and they deserve to face the consequences. However, the measure put in place to combat these people place inconvenient restrictions on the majority of generally law-abiding people.
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Am I bothered about this surveillance / snooping society of ours ? As the Churchill Insurance dog might say - Oh Yes.
Safeguards, not using the data inappropriately, supposedly destroying old data and the rest of it are all OK if it actually happens. The problem is that once the power to monitor people exists those in control are addicted to it and will never give it up.
Maybe 10 years ago whoever thought that by owning a car and logging your details with DVLC that a private individual or company could retrieve those details just by showing some alleged good reason e.g supermarket car parks etc.
Take look at history and WW2 in Europe - wouldn't the Nazis loved to have tracked all those races that didn't suit them. Even today local councils are abusing powers to snoop on you in case you might be applying to a school outside your area or maybe you've tossed a yoghurt pot in the wrong bin.
The justification for all this seems to be the fight against crime and terrorism.
Take a look, this time at 1984 by George Orwell - the nation was always at war with someone or other in order to permit the government to control and put down the population.
Scared ? - dead right I am.
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>> Take look at history and WW2 in Europe - wouldn't the Nazis loved to have
>> tracked all those races that didn't suit them.
They did a pretty good job without ANPR. Just because you don't have ANPR, or have it well controlled, won't stop the rise of such groups to power. The Nazi party was the problem, not technology. The current coalition is going to have a big problem rounding up and exterminating 6 million people, just because it has ANPR.
>> Even today local councils are abusing powers
>> to snoop on you in case you might be applying to a school outside your
>> area or maybe you've tossed a yoghurt pot in the wrong bin.
If you are trying to get your child into a school around the corner from you, you might not think it is so bad that they are stopping people 20 miles away from going to your school just because they can afford to rent a flat next to you for a few months.
>> The justification for all this seems to be the fight against crime and terrorism.
>>
>> Take a look, this time at 1984 by George Orwell - the nation was always
>> at war with someone or other in order to permit the government to control and
>> put down the population.
>>
>> Scared ? - dead right I am.
We are currently involved in two wars, which have probably killed hundreds of thousands of people. ANPR didn't cause these wars, but if it had picked up the right people at the right time it might have stopped them (no 9/11, no wars in Afghanistan and Iraq).
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>> Maybe 10 years ago whoever thought that by owning a car and logging your details
>> with DVLC that a private individual or company could retrieve those details just by showing
>> some alleged good reason e.g supermarket car parks etc.
To be fair, vehicle registration data has always been available to those who can show cause. Very useful if somebody damages your car and legs it but is caught by a witness (or CCTV) so the reg is known.
I'm ambivalant about it's being disclosed where the allegation is trespass or breach of a one sided 'contract' but where do you draw the line? If somebody persistently abused my parking space in say a block of flats I'd want to trace him.
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Tax and MOT databases are given a very low priority due to the volume of traffic hitting cameras. You've more chances of winning the lottery two weeks in succession than be stopped because your MOT is two days out of date. There are hundred of thousands of cars passing through m/way cameras each day. It's impossible to shout out every single hit.
Unfortunately, the people who are making the most noise don't actually have a clue how it works. But then, what's new.
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Thanks for posting that, mlc. It's always good to have something explained by thems that know.
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Midlife - I'm sure you are right that those looking at screens or sifting data cannot possibly deal with everything they see. That unfortunately doesn't mean that it couldn't be done. More manpower or more computer power and then every pass of a camera is logged against you and saved.
Trivial example: Say one day in 2050 you're late for work and give the boss an excuse about a bad tooth and visiting the dentist. The boss, having "good reason", checks out the system and finds you were shopping instead.
Even now some employees are tracked by the company in their vehicles and phone calls are recorded for "training" and guess what - security.
The masses are blindly walking into a terrifying future without realising it. Often, who even needs snooping - how many are happily posting intimate details of them themselves on networking sites.
Why, why are people contentedly giving up their privacy ?
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>> Midlife - I'm sure you are right that those looking at screens or sifting data
>> cannot possibly deal with everything they see. That unfortunately doesn't mean that it couldn't be done.
>>
>> Trivial example: Say one day in 2050 you're late for work and give the boss
>> an excuse about a bad tooth and visiting the dentist. The boss, having "good reason",
>> checks out the system and finds you were shopping instead.
>>
The only way every hit could be read out is if they re-employ all those Public sector workers about to be chopped and recruit some more. There are tens and tens of thousands every day. Imagine a TV screen with constant scrolling text. Every minute of every hour of every day. Each hit deemed worthy of a broadcast is checked against PNC before circulation. It's physically impossible. There's then the problem that (in my area) there's 500 miles of m/way and only 8-10 cars patrolling. That's before any arrests are made.
As for the 'late for work' example. I'm assuming the boss has invested millions in the necessary technology and cameras, because he certainly wouldn't be given access to Police databases. Lots of petrol stations have signs saying 'ANPR cameras in force'. I have no idea what they are, but they certainly don't have any connection or access to ours.
If I feel someone is snooping on me, I'm the first to cry foul. (I've refused to fill out certain forms that relate to my job because I don't feel the requested info is any of their business). ANPR however, is nothing to be afraid of. It's a marvellous crime fighting tool and is a great 'force multiplier'. We can be in the right place at the right time and get some pretty nasty people off the street.
Neither I, nor the people I work with care if your playing hookey from work or getting your end away with the local vicars wife. It's a different matter if you've just raped the vicars wife or held her up at gunpoint.
Last edited by: midlifecrisis on Mon 5 Jul 10 at 14:55
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>> Lots of petrol stations have signs saying 'ANPR cameras in force'. I have no idea
>> what they are, but they certainly don't have any connection or access to ours.
It's basically Optical Character Recognition (OCR) which is the same core technology used by ANPR, but without the police / DVLA database back end. As far as I can work out, it just captures an image of the number plate from the CCTV, and converts the registration number into text for ease of recall if the driver doesn't pay.
That said, our local filling station has the system screen clearly visible behind the counter, with a multiplex display showing the image captured by each camera at that moment, and the system's text interpretation of that plate underneath each image. I always chuckle to myself that at least one of the images on screen at any one time has an incorrectly captured reg number. Most of the time it's just one character out, but some of the numbers it comes up with don't even make any sense. I hope the police system is more accurate.
Last edited by: DP on Mon 5 Jul 10 at 15:52
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Some supermarket car parks have them, and some McDonald's, for logging cars in and out for an attempt to charge for overstays.
Nothing to do with the ANPR system.
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Midlife,
We're not really in disagreement - what truly frightens me is the mis-use of data collected.
You say ....because he certainly wouldn't be given access to Police databases. That's the problem - the information exists and I just don't have your trust in it not leaking out one day.
(1) Imagine, I buy plonk in Tesco and use a loyalty (joke) card. One day the data gets linked to a cash strapped NHS database. Soon after...sorry DE we can't treat you as our information shows you have abused your body and as such you are ineligible for treatment.
Or,
(2) Our system shows you have driven in excess of the allotted rationed green miles last month. Do it again and your carbon footprint will be forcibly reduced by a stay in HMP.
Or,
(3) Dear parent ,our photographic evidence shows your child is fed a bad diet - kindly improve it.
Only one of the above three is true today. Who knows about the future ?
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>> (1) Imagine, I buy plonk in Tesco and use a loyalty (joke) card. One day
>> the data gets linked to a cash strapped NHS database. Soon after...sorry DE we can't
>> treat you as our information shows you have abused your body and as such you
>> are ineligible for treatment.
A lot of scaremongering here, if you don't mind me saying DE.
Firstly, the reality is that there is only limited cash to spend on the NHS. Would you be happy that, with limited cash and limited organs, an alcoholic who refused to quit was giving a liver and had the money spent on surgery, at the cost of another donor?
Might not be fair, and maybe you wouldn't want to make the judgement, but somebody has to - because money and organs are limited - we can't just say that nobody has the right to judge, because someone has to balance the books.
However, you are never going to be stopped from having surgery because you have bought a single bottle of plonk, and they wouldn't use your loyalty card anyway, they would give you a medical.
That is why I say scaremongering because, yes, we can make up loads of doomsday scenarios of living in a Totalitarian state, but that doesn't make them real.
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>> >> (1) Imagine, I buy plonk in Tesco and use a loyalty (joke) card. One
>> >> day the data gets linked to a cash strapped NHS database. Soon after...
>> >> sorry DE we can't treat you as our information shows you have abused
>> >> your body and as such you are ineligible for treatment.
>>
>> A lot of scaremongering here, if you don't mind me saying DE.
www.jrrt.org.uk/uploads/Database%20State.pdf (again)
There's a pretty good example of what can happen now in there.
>> Firstly, the reality is that there is only limited cash to spend on the NHS.
Yes, and most of it is (60%) spent on wages.
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>> >> A lot of scaremongering here, if you don't mind me saying DE.
>>
>> www.jrrt.org.uk/uploads/Database%20State.pdf (again)
>>
>> There's a pretty good example of what can happen now in there.
Yes, it is perfectly possible to dream up all kinds of Dystopian scenarios. Nobody ever made any money or increased their reputation by publishing reports entitled "Things are pretty much OK, so no need to worry".
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>> >> Firstly, the reality is that there is only limited cash to spend on the
>> NHS.
>>
>> Yes, and most of it is (60%) spent on wages.
Not sure what your point is here. 60% on wages doesn't exactly sound huge, I would expect it to be at least that considering that the majority of the service is people treating people.
Still, let's say that savings can be made (which they no doubt can). There is still a finite amount of money (and organs), so there are still decisions to be made on how it should be spent.
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>> Midlife,
>>
>> We're not really in disagreement - what truly frightens me is the mis-use of data
>> collected.
>>
>> You say ....because he certainly wouldn't be given access to Police databases. That's the problem
>> - the information exists and I just don't have your trust in it not leaking
>> out one day.
The only re-assurance I can give is that we have huge difficulties trying to get info from Forces that are immediately next to us. Data protection is taken very seriously, to such an extent it hampers what we do. Anybody found even sniffing at the database without reason finds themselves down the job centre very, very quickly.
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Fothers - 'I saw it on the net so it must be right' syndrome appears. This is no different to any other self-serving 'report' published anywhere else. And I quote:
''In the wake of the HMRC fiasco, and all the subsequent data losses that came to light in the
months that followed, the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust sponsored a meeting of academics and
activists with an interest in privacy. These experts attempted to map Britain’s database state,
identifying the many public sector databases that collect personal information about us. The task
proved to be too big for one seminar, highlighting the need for a more in-depth study of the
‘Transformational Government’ programme. The Trust, therefore, commissioned the Foundation
for Information Policy Research to produce this report, which provides the most comprehensive
map of Britain’s database state currently available.''
Loss of data files does not provide evidence of continued misuse by data holders. carelessness, yes, repeated misuse for illegal purpose, no.
And while I'm here, there don't appear to be any reports of damage caused by the loss of the HMRC files. And please don't start quoting 'identity theft'. No such thing exists.
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>> Loss of data files does not provide evidence of continued misuse by data
>> holders. carelessness, yes, repeated misuse for illegal purpose, no.
I didn't say it did, and I don't think that report does, either, does it.
Loss of data is not necessarily misuse, although it could be a pointer to such. Misuse
for illegal purposes - e.g. on the police national computer, which happens from time
to time - is of course different.
>> And while I'm here, there don't appear to be any reports of damage caused by
>> the loss of the HMRC files.
If you're going to change tack, and start talking about the effects of data loss, then there's no need to limit discussion to HMRC's.
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The report (that you posted!) opens by talking about data loss. The general point about regulation, which is what the Government proposes, is that regulation prevents misuse of data. Isn't that the general thrust of this discussion?
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Rowntree Foundation is pretty well respected.
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...Rowntree Foundation is pretty well respected...
Yep and the fruit pastilles cannot be beaten.
I just wish they'd make a tube of orange, red, and black, and bin the green and yellow ones.
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Police number plate recognition camera rules - Skoda
