Yesterday I was coming back from Northampton and heard that the M1 was blocked in two places southbound due to accidents so we decided to cut across country on the A45/A14 and come down the M11. Added 15 minutes to the predicted journey time but no problems there.
My son mentioned that he'd heard there had been problems on the M11 southbound at Harlow so it might not be best option so checked before leaving to see that the closure had now gone and that there was one lane still closed but that was expected to re-open within the next 30 minutes and traffic was clearing OK. Still left me with the option of leaving at M11/Jcn 8 and taking the A120/A131 route if necessary if M11 hadn't cleared when I got closer.
Anyway, set off and had good journey bang on predicted time all the way down M11, got to decision time just before Jcn 8 and saw one of the overhead matrix signs reading 'Jcn 6 (M25) 15 miles 16 minutes'. I then made one of the stupidest decisions in a long while, I believed the sign and decided to stay on the M11 to the M25; after all 15 miles/16 minutes, an extra couple of minutes more than optimum, versus an extra ten minutes on the journey for the alternative route factors in nicely.
Passed Jcn 8 and the next sign promptly shows 40 limit and Caution for queues, by the time I reached that sign the traffic was three lanes of stationary/stop/go.
IT THEN TOOK OVER AN HOUR TO PASS JCN 7 AND ONE AND A QUARTER HOURS TO JCN 6.
If the matrix sign had told me the truth I would have taken the alternative route and I would have been home before I even reached the M25.
So the question is, what is the point of the matrix signs if they can't be trusted to be giving correct information?
I don't expect then to be perfect to the minute but closer than five times the journey time would be nice. After all, they didn't come cheap, I don't suppose....
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They are a waste of space, usually wrong or telling me not to drink and drive while tired. Fantastic idea, appallingly operated.
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As they are operated by the Highways Agency whose wombles cause most of the delays you would think that they had up to date information for the signs. Or maybe it is a policy to hack people off to the point that they use our wonderful railway service.
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>> They are a waste of space, usually wrong or telling me not to drink and
>> drive while tired. Fantastic idea, appallingly operated.
>> operated by HA wombles....
Curmudgeon's corner........
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 4 Jan 15 at 14:30
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>> >> They are a waste of space, usually wrong or telling me not to drink
>> and
>> >> drive while tired. Fantastic idea, appallingly operated.
>>
>> Curmudgeon's corner........
Not at all, you needed to use the A1 to see the ones stuck with a warning of a non extant roadworks for 4 MONTHS! or the ones on the M11 that warn of and slow down non existent incidents or fail to warn of real ones.
They are rapidly becoming useless because people are learning not to trust em.
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>> Not at all, you needed to use the A1 to see the ones stuck with
>> a warning of a non extant roadworks for 4 MONTHS! or the ones on the
>> M11 that warn of and slow down non existent incidents or fail to warn of
>> real ones.
There will always be egregious examples and I rarely use A1 or M11.
With kids at Uni in Sheffield and Liverpool, a daughter now in Plymouth and Mum less active than she was in Leicester I'm doing more miles than I ever did. Mostly it's M1 and M6 but M40/A34/M4/M5 feature too.
Now if I leave Liverpool and the M56 matrices say problems after M6/J15 then I'm off onto the A50 without further ado. No idea if the message turns out to be wrong. They're often used on M1 to slow southbound traffic past a northbound inident and vv. Quite sensible given the public's tendency to rubberneck. Ditto for a fire or other incident just off the M/way.
Of course they're not perfect but M/ways are much better with than they were before.
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>> Not at all, you needed to use the A1 to see the ones stuck with
>> a warning of a non extant roadworks for 4 MONTHS!
>> They are rapidly becoming useless because people are learning not to trust em.
>>
That makes a change, it used to be object/person in the carriageway. It was on nearly every Sunday night, week after week. Never once saw anything like the warning on the A1. Probably still flashing up now.
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>> They are rapidly becoming useless because people are learning not to trust em.
>>
I had one in Dec on the M5 telling me of long delays on the M40. Sat Nav in the car showed it was clear, but that's not always correct. Avoiding the M40 would mean a lengthy diversion.
Took a chance and it was absolutely fine. I wonder how many people took notice and wasted a lot of time and fuel?
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>> They are a waste of space, usually wrong or telling me not to drink and
>> drive while tired. Fantastic idea, appallingly operated.
>>
As an M27 / M3 power user I agree totally, they are worse than useless; I shudder to think how much we paid for them. Local radio is by far the best source of up to date traffic information.
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Any idea what the problem actually was Cockle? My experience on the M1 over the holiday period is subject of another thread (see the 50 How Difficult ). People who lack M/way experience very easily create bunches and slow/stop waves even in a 50 limit. Everybody except education will be back at work tomorrow so yesterday and today will see massive numbers of folks on the move.
The x miles/y minutes prediction is, AIUI, based on tracking a random sample of vehicles using ANPR. There will be a minimum period of time between and incident occurring, being reported and the control centre being able to react and flag up a diversion or speed limits. I suspect you were just unlucky.
I've usually found them pretty good to be fair. Particularly helpful when they warn of major closures up to 100 miles in advance. If travelling Leeds to Southampton knowing the A43 is closed by passing Chesterfield gives options of A38, A42/M42, A5/A361 etc. Others also complain of spurious warnings, often I suspect it's their own lack of observation of a real event.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 4 Jan 15 at 14:27
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>> There will be a minimum period of time between and incident occurring, being
>> reported and the control centre being able to react and flag up a diversion or
>> speed limits.
No there wont, the HA control centre have FULL CCTV coverage of all the sections, they have complete control over and visibility over what the lights say. They have the capability to to be up to date and accurate to the minute. ANPR speed sensing is a tool they can employ, for smart motorway control, in this case some tit didn't turn off the advisory.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 4 Jan 15 at 14:37
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For most of my trip back up M5 and M6 yesterday the matrix signs said Salt Spreading in Progress. I did not see one gritter in 130 miles.
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>> For most of my trip back up M5 and M6 yesterday the matrix signs said
>> Salt Spreading in Progress. I did not see one gritter in 130 miles.
And?
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>> >> For most of my trip back up M5 and M6 yesterday the matrix signs
>> said
>> >> Salt Spreading in Progress. I did not see one gritter in 130 miles.
>>
>> And?
The signs were wrong.
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The gritters were there but the Alistair never saw one.
Not unusual, if they move along at 50ish albeit in middle lane and re-treat each section once an hour how many will you see?
The sign's just telling you to be prepared to encounter one.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 4 Jan 15 at 15:25
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>> Not unusual, if they move along at 50ish albeit in middle lane and re-treat each
>> section once an hour how many will you see?
>
As many as that were there, pretty difficult to miss especially if you keeping an eye out for them.
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>> The gritters were there but the Alistair never saw one.
If they were there, he would have seen one. Unless of course they warned the whole motorway for one section, which lets face it more likely to have happened. As I said they have cameras, they have control, they could track the progress of the spreaders. In fact the spreaders have GPS.
Its just another example of the signs losing currency in the mind of the traveling public.
And you really think each section gets retreated once an hour? Thats laughable.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 4 Jan 15 at 15:33
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>> If they were there, he would have seen one. Unless of course they warned the
>> whole motorway for one section, which lets face it more likely to have happened. As
>> I said they have cameras, they have control, they could track the progress of the
>> spreaders. In fact the spreaders have GPS.
If there are teams out salt spreading then I'd expect the signs to say so. I don't though expect them to be turned on and off to mark the progress of each gritter. It's also a warning that there's grit/salt on the road and that it may be thrown up and/or affect the surface.
>> Its just another example of the signs losing currency in the mind of the traveling
>> public.
If the public are stupid enough to think 'Salt Spreading' on the overheads means there's a gritter just ahead then I give up. It means they're out and about and you MAY encounter one. Do you think the low flying aircraft sign at M1/J24 looses currency just 'cos there's never a plane landing as you pass?
>> And you really think each section gets retreated once an hour? Thats laughable.
It was an illustrative example as to why you don't see one. I've no idea what the re treatment frequency actually is.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 4 Jan 15 at 15:53
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>> If there are teams out salt spreading then I'd expect the signs to say so.
so would I If i see the sign I expect to see them, otherwise why put up the sign?
>> I don't though expect them to be turned on and off to mark the progress
>> of each gritter. It's also a warning that there's grit/salt on the road and that
>> it may be thrown up and/or affect the surface.
Not its not, its says "gritting in progress" not "grit on road"
>>
>> >> Its just another example of the signs losing currency in the mind of the
>> traveling
>> >> public.
>>
>> If the public are stupid enough to think 'Salt Spreading' on the overheads means there's
>> a gritter just ahead then I give up.
Exactly how could we be SO stupid as to believe what the signs say.
>> It means they're out and about and
>> you MAY encounter one.
I'll tell you what it means in practise and in my experience, it means you have NO chance of seeing one.
>> It was an illustrative example as to why you don't see one. I've no idea
>> what the re treatment frequency actually is.
Ah I see, you made it up to try and defend the indefensible. I'll tell you whats happening in the real world, people are losing faith in the signs, making it dangerous to those who rely on the real warnings they give when they are accurate.
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I have limited experience of motorways but use M3, M25 & M40 or M4/M40 to Oxford and sit in a queue with the signs reading e.g. 16 miles in 15 minutes when there is a gantry 40 limit showing.
Go figure!
No wonder the signs are not trusted. Add to that the distraction and irritation then what is their aim ? Oh! Now I understand it as the next sign says " take a break do't drive tired."
Google seems to know what is happening re traffic.
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>> If there are teams out salt spreading then I'd expect the signs to say so.
>> I don't though expect them to be turned on and off to mark the progress
>> of each gritter. It's also a warning that there's grit/salt on the road and that
>> it may be thrown up and/or affect the surface.
>>
Something similar might be a good idea, show people the signs and what they see in the road can match up.
Personally speaking I've found them to be pretty poor, showing infomation too late or non exsistant problems frequently, such those on the A1 I mentioned above.
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>> The gritters were there but the Alistair never saw one.
On the subject of motorway gritting. I've lost count of the number of times I've been held up because a group won't pass a gritter and sit there being plastered in the stuff, creating a jam.
It's not very pleasant being blasted as you get past, but surely it's preferable to following immediately behind for miles?
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>> It's not very pleasant being blasted as you get past, but surely it's preferable to
>> following immediately behind for miles?
Word of advice - never overtake the snow plough. TBH I'll happily stick behind the gritier, its not as tho they hang about.
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>> It's not very pleasant being blasted as you get past, but surely it's preferable to
>> following immediately behind for miles?
>>
Yes. And I've had to do that on a motorbike before, trust me it's even less pleasant.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Sun 4 Jan 15 at 17:19
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>> The sign's just telling you to be prepared to encounter one.
>>
At this time of year I'd be prepared to encounter one anyway.
I do agree that those matrix signs are only good at stating the bleeding obvious.
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>
>> No there wont, the HA control centre have FULL CCTV coverage of all the sections,
>> they have complete control over and visibility over what the lights say
There is full CCTV coverage on managed/smart motorway, much less elsewhere eg the M6 northwards from J15 to 20 or the M1 round here. Still got matrix signs though.
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>> Any idea what the problem actually was Cockle?
Apparently it was a five car prang at the slip road at Jcn 6 southbound, Bromp, probably caused by one of the usual suspects who manage to miss, or are too important to be like the rest of us, and/or heed two miles of warning that if you want the M25 then you need to be in the inside lane in two miles time and then dive in at the last moment.....
According to the Fire and Rescue site they were called at 12:58 and left the scene at 14:41.
Updated traffic report at 17:45 stated that one lane was now open and traffic was slowly clearing with full opening in 30 minutes.
So when I came through M11 Jcn 8 at 19:30 I was prepared to take either the straight through or divert option, a decision I based on the matrix sign. Looking at some comments elsewhere it seems some people were delayed by over three hours so I got off lightly. But going on all that the last time traffic could have been achieving what the matrix was displaying would have been well over SIX hours earlier......
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I suspect the problem is "noise" The signs are used extensively to convey largely useless information, IE don't drink and drive, don't drive sleepily. We don't need to know 100 miles away about the dartford tunnel charge, We don't even need to know the next 16 miles will take 16 minutes. As a result the traffic control desks are permanently lit showing the signs are on, and the accuracy and timeless of the valid information gets lost "in the noise"
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On long journeys I check my phone.
Dial 177 with Orange and you get trafficmaster.
Saved my bacon loads of times.
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If you want to check what the roadside sign messages are or for that matter lots of other useful information regarding roadworks, delays etc the The Traffic England site is worth looking at.
www.trafficengland.com/map.aspx?long0=-403.4613960041688&lat0=3276.6173111324606&long1=173.3223076995351&lat1=3027.4688365561897&navbar=true
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>> www.trafficengland.com/map.aspx?long0=-403.4613960041688&lat0=3276.6173111324606&long1=173.3223076995351&lat1=3027.4688365561897&navbar=true
Exactly my point. Look at all those boxes saying signs are on, at a glance you think there are loads of issues, but in really only about 10% of them are giving you information you need to know.
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>> >> www.trafficengland.com/map.aspx?long0=-403.4613960041688&lat0=3276.6173111324606&long1=173.3223076995351&lat1=3027.4688365561897&navbar=true
>>
>> Exactly my point. Look at all those boxes saying signs are on, at a glance
>> you think there are loads of issues, but in really only about 10% of them
>> are giving you information you need to know.
>>
You beat me to this point.
In response to their " How can we improve things?" I replied Turn of the rubbish and leave the possibly useful info. p.s. I am reading this at home so 15 miles in 16 minutes when I am 100 miles away is unwanted!
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To be honest that's what irked me last night.
I knew there'd been a problem on the M11 and that it was only recently clearing so I was quite prepared to take the alternative route and was going to, until I saw the sign. So, in my case at least, if the sign hadn't been there, or on, it would have saved me best part of an extra hour on a two hour journey. Just felt I'd been suckered into it.
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>> Exactly my point. Look at all those boxes saying signs are on, at a glance
>> you think there are loads of issues, but in really only about 10% of them
>> are giving you information you need to know.
I don't just want them to give me information I need. I'd quite like stuff that's useful to know like grit spreading, fog patches ahead or some indication of traffic flow. It adds to what what I can actually observe and the messages on the radio to provide hat flyers call situational awareness. A like a full picture....
Road safety messages i an take or leave, can't get excited over their presence or absence. Keep left when not overtaking might just get a few clots to move over. Don't drink and drive is just like a roadside poster really.
And it's not just us. The French show journey times too and safety messages, par brise nettoye = securite being my favourite.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 4 Jan 15 at 17:28
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"par brise nettoye = securite being my favourite."
Glad to know you still like it - you mentioned in on HJ's site in April 2006!
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>> radio to provide hat flyers call situational awareness. A like a full picture....
Massive case of insecurity sounds like to me.
I need to know when things are not normal. I know I can do 60 miles an hour on a motorway unless otherwise informed. I know there is no fog unless otherwise informed. I know what a normal motorway looks and operates like, I just need to know when its not like that.
Oh and fliers call it information overload, not situational awareness.
One of the problems is that some dumb ass civil servant in the DoT probably thought that saying they could cut down the number of drink driving deaths would add to the business case for approving the installation of the signs.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 4 Jan 15 at 17:47
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One "safety notice " which did make me smile once was on the Briton Ferry flyover on the M4, warning drivers to "beware of diesel thieves". As most will know if they've driven over that flyover, on the seaward side is a travellers camp. I'm minded to wonder if any of them complained about the sign, assuming that is that they could read it.
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If you use a smart phone for navigation, or backup, I have found the Waze app quite useful.
www.waze.com/
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Really? I've found it unadulterated junk on multiple occasions.
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I have not seen this informative matrix sign before.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-30691090
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>> I have not seen this informative matrix sign before.
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-30691090
Fantastic example. A stopped motorway, a sign saying traffic needs to be u-turned, yet the same sign giving a 40mph max speed limit.
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>> Fantastic example. A stopped motorway, a sign saying traffic needs to be u-turned, yet the
>> same sign giving a 40mph max speed limit.
>>
I know it is irritating but is 40 the minimum setting for speed limits ( apart from lane closed which is also ignored)
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why have the speed limit up on that sign at all!
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I ventured down the M4 to Wroughton ( Swindon ) yesterday.
On the way back last night in very twitchy windy conditions there was a 40 limit sign and congestion ahead sign.
No other signs, no congestion on the M4 or the slip road at the junction. No wonder regulars ignore so many signs.
Saw the usual antics en route. On my return, traffic was very light so I was making "good progress" in lane one when I was overtaken and nearly lost my bonnet as the idiot exited left across the hatchings. Expect the unexpected? I suspect he/she was probably caught out , not expecting a lane vehicle making progress.
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>> I ventured down the M4 to Wroughton ( Swindon ) yesterday.
>> On the way back last night in very twitchy windy conditions there was a 40
>> limit sign and congestion ahead sign.
>> No other signs, no congestion on the M4 or the slip road at the
>> junction. No wonder regulars ignore so many signs.
Now that's the attitude that puzzles me.
You state that it was windy and there was a 40 limit (presumably the advisory sort). I certainly would not have wanted to be towing the caravan under conditions here. Doubt it was much different further south and guess 40 would be good advice for anything high sided or twitchy. Even solo the 'lingo needs care in crosswinds.
The matrix signs warn of things that MAY affect your journey. They are a 'be prepared' warning not a statement of absolute fact. Just because you saw no congestion it doesn't mean it wasn't there. 'Wave' bunching and resultant recurring short term congestion comes and goes in minutes.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 10 Jan 15 at 10:45
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>>The matrix signs warn of things that MAY affect your journey.
>> They are a 'be prepared' warning not a statement of absolute fact. Just because you saw no congestion it doesn't mean it wasn't there.
>> 'Wave' bunching and resultant recurring short term congestion comes and goes in minutes.
Yes but!
Approx 75 miles of M4, M25, M3 light / very light traffic and this was the only speed resrtiction sign I saw. No nanny signs either or even " beware side winds."
IMHO it was a faulty sign , a screw up a long delayed cancellation of the sign or finger trouble.
The result was that I saw nobody hitting the brakes or slowing down.
With such sign management comes even greater " ignore em" attitude.
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>> The result was that I saw nobody hitting the brakes or slowing down.
>> With such sign management comes even greater " ignore em" attitude.
I think some of you are too literal with these signs.
Congestion? Hit the brakes now
Salt Spreading? There's a gritter a quarter mile ahead.
They're just saying, in the words of the old song, 'There May be Trouble Ahead'.
Up your attention and anticipation by a point or two and you'll be fine. OTOH trouble may have resolved itself.
The OP OTOH should be writing to the HA to complain. If there was a long standing major incident causing significant delays not signed well ahead of the obvious diversionary route then the matrix displays are not earning their corn.
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>> I think some of you are too literal with these signs.
I know fancy expecting to see an object in the road when it's sign posted. What crazy expections some people have eh? ;-)
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>> I know fancy expecting to see an object in the road when it's sign posted.
>> What crazy expections some people have eh? ;-)
There's an object in road and we're in process of moving it; it may be gone soon but be prepared.
What's difficult?
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>> There's an object in road and we're in process of moving it:
It may take 4 months according to the signs on the A1
The signs HAVE to be literal. They have to be Accurate, up to date, and appropriate if the HA expect people to take notice of them
They fail on all three, regularly. So regularly its almost the operational norm.
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>> >> I know fancy expecting to see an object in the road when it's sign
>> posted.
>> >> What crazy expections some people have eh? ;-)
>>
>> There's an object in road and we're in process of moving it; it may be
>> gone soon but be prepared.
>>
>> What's difficult?
>>
That must be it, yeah missed all those objects in the road every sunday. I must have missed the road being closed so they can collect all those objects. Oh and all talebacks from those road closures while they collected all those objects. All those are so easy to miss, I get it now ;-)
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sat 10 Jan 15 at 21:12
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The site has now been updated.
A motorist was killed when their car crashed into a wild boar on the M4 in Wiltshire and was then hit by a lorry.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-30691090
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Whilst I was aware of the wild boar that inhabit the Forest of Dean, I didnt realise we had large wild boar in Wiltshire much less the chance of them blundering onto the M4
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>>we had large wild boar in Wiltshire
The size of a the back of a bus.
Oh sorry, you didn't see that!
;>)
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www.traffic-answers.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9775.0
This goes some way to showing why the never ending criticism is unjustified in many cases.
Pat
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>> This goes some way to showing why the never ending criticism is unjustified in many
>> cases.
No, that explains why the signs are inaccurate, it doesn't justify the inaccuracy. What that gives us is a catalogue of inefficiency and lack of overall control. It tells us that the system is almost inevitably doomed to uselessness.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 11 Jan 15 at 08:57
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Uni run today, Northampton to Liverpool (Aigburth) and return via A5>M1>A50>M6>M56 etc. Not a single gantry showing anything other than time/distance info. No incidents not shown either.
Well actually there was a blockage on the M1 s/b in the roadworks J19>16 around 16:00; 45mins+ delay. It would have been nice to see signs ahead of A50 advising that as an m1 avoiding route via M40 would be possible. Counsel of perfection to expect such a thing though and anyway it was clear by 17:00 according to Radio 2 traffic after Sounds of Seventies.
Unfortunately I've got to do it again in a few days 'cos Nobb Edd forgot his Cornet. I'm not entrusting it to the post and he's not getting an excuse to drop Uni orchestra.
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>> No, that explains why the signs are inaccurate, it doesn't justify the inaccuracy. What that
>> gives us is a catalogue of inefficiency and lack of overall control. It tells us
>> that the system is almost inevitably doomed to uselessness.
What was it I said yesterday about your comments on the NI situation? This is sub biscuit but in same mode.
Evidence there but ignored in favour of blinkers and prejudice.
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biscuit but in same mode.
>>
>> Evidence there but ignored in favour of blinkers and prejudice.
There was no evidence there of Sign accuracy merely reasons why they were not. The only blinkered person on here is you, who steadfastly refuses to believe the experience of EVERYONE else on here.
EVEN THO THERE WAS A BLOCKAGE FOR YOU THAT WASNT SIGNED!
Now that HAS to be blinkered.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 11 Jan 15 at 20:53
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This evening, on the M25 at J9 clockwise was a sign telling me that the A1 was closed after the A606.
Useful, that is probably 130 miles away
Useful, how many people know the road numbers? (as it happens I know that one, most people wont)*
Now why wasn't that one signed before the M1 - which is a natural detour. That diversion is 40 miles further up the M25!
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>> Useful, that is probably 130 miles away
>>
>> Useful, how many people know the road numbers? (as it happens I know that one,
>> most people wont)*
The junction number would be more useful but are junctions on A1 (as opposed to A1M) numbered?
Similar experience locally where the A43 or A45 are affected but junction numbers are not universal there either.
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Well, you've answered your own question there.
It is signed early to allow >>Useful, how many people know the road numbers? (as it happens I know that one, most people wont)*<< those people to pull off the motorway and consult a map for an alternative route to their destination.
If it was signed too late then the *panic* we see with the lady (idiot) with the fuel light comes into play.
Pat
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>> If it was signed too late then the *panic* we see with the lady (idiot)
>> with the fuel light comes into play.
>>
>> Pat
No-one needs to know about a problem, 130 miles away.
As for maps.
How about "A1 Closed Stamford?"
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>> No-one needs to know about a problem, 130 miles away.
>>
You're at it again.
Say the clockwise M25 is jammed due to a crash in Holmesdale Tunnel. Surely better for M1 traffic to cut over to A1/M11 soonest, even as far away as Yorkshire, rather than carry on in ignorance.
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>> You're at it again.
>>
>> Say the clockwise M25 is jammed due to a crash in Holmesdale Tunnel. Surely better
>> for M1 traffic to cut over to A1/M11 soonest, even as far away as Yorkshire,
>> rather than carry on in ignorance.
So are you. you are now trying to invent facile pretend scenarios to justify it.
Let me throw this FACT (sorry shouting again) at you, I joined the M25 near Dartford. that for your information is closer to the A1 closure. If I had been going up the A1 I would have gone anti clock there, but no mention of it. And don't tell me "it might not have happened when you were there" It had happened because it was planned road works.
You can wriggle as much as you like, you can postulate and make up ridiculous pretend scenarios to try and justify your point of view. At the end of the day, my experience, and others experience is such that the UK motorway information sign system is inaccurate enough to cast severe doubt over its usefulness, to the point where they are rapidly becoming ignored. I don't make this stuff up, I didn't suddenly wake up and think "I will diss the signs" Miles and miles of driving and experience has led to this undeniable conclusion. The whole birth of this thread is because someone was complaining about them Are they lying?
Even you, the HA apologist, had to admit you were not provided with useful information yet still you try and defend it against the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Tell you what, I'll add this to the Bromp 101 room, the one where safety and visibly clothing for cyclist is useless. The Bromp 101 room where undeniable stuff gets shoved conveniently down the hole.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 12 Jan 15 at 09:11
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>> >> At the end of the
>> day, my experience, and others experience is such that the UK motorway information sign system
>> is inaccurate enough to cast severe doubt over its usefulness, to the point where they
>> are rapidly becoming ignored.
>>
Absolutely true.
M6 yesterday, near Preston. Signs warning of "Incident", speed restricted to 50. Some people slowed down, others tried to ignore it but bunched into those who had slowed. After a few miles, the signs said "Clear".
There was no incident, apart from dangerous bunching of traffic caused by a rogue traffic indicator.
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>> So are you. you are now trying to invent facile pretend scenarios to justify it.
It was addressing your specific assertion that nobody needs to know about stuff miles away.
Fatal>Investigation>Repair&resurface closing part of M25 for 12 hours is facile/pretend? Yeah right. Tell that to the people stuck in the jam.
All I'm saying is that the signs usually work for me. Not seeing the M1 delays north of Stoke yesterday was actually consistent with the link Pat posted as the incident was being cleared as planned and would not affect.
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>> Fatal>Investigation>Repair&resurface closing part of M25 for 12 hours is facile/pretend? Yeah right. Tell that to
>> the people stuck in the jam.
huh? what are you wobbling on about, who mentioned that?
Right, Let try a wee experiment then. I have just appointed you head of the HA.
This is your first press interview.
"Zero - Chief motoring writer on the Monday Argus"
"Sir Bromp, do you accept there is a public perception issue with the UK's road sign information systems, and if so why do you think that is"
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 12 Jan 15 at 09:55
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>> "Sir Bromp, do you accept there is a public perception issue with the UK's road
>> sign information systems, and if so why do you think that is"
An observation from me:
As head of the HA (I hope!) I'd have access to some meaningful customer survey information. Posts above from a self selected sub set of a self selected group overwhelmingly composed of middle aged curmudgeons blokes may not be representative.
Adopting my 'Sir Bromp' persona:
- Accept we're not always 100% but use that info to put 'perception' into some sort of context.
- Investing in new kit on smart/managed section
- Recognise we can improve but set out limitations of 'old tech' infrastructure elsewhere
- We'd like to replace that stuff but austerity etc...
- Working with staff to improve performance and get most out of old kit notwithstanding limitations
- If we get it wrong tell us
- Commit to public information (web, leaflets at MSA's) on what system does/does not do
- Above would also cover meaning of standard messages like 'salt spreading' and 'congestion'.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 12 Jan 15 at 11:18
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"Sir Bromp, the public is telling you that you have it wrong, but tyour answers appear to be that you don't accept that, instead telling them you want more money for your department in order to educate the public to meet your requirements"
"Surely as a public body dedicated to providing a meaningful service you should be trying to meet the public expectation, not making the public fit yours?"
Sir Bromp, it has also been reported that in private, you were heard dismissing first hand reports as "unrepresentative". Would you care to comment upon that, and would you like to comment on the dangers of senior civil servants and politicians using social media?
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Zeddo,
Me here not my knighted alter-ego; limit to how far I'm taking that one!!
I didn't say the public were wrong but (hypothetically) the HA's own feedback contradicts media assertions. Minsters and senior public servants need to 'grow a pair' and stop pandering to the agenda of the Mail etc. That might though be difficult for the Tories as there's a symbiotic relationship between Conservative Central Office and the Harmsworth press where latter is fed stories that sustain the policy agenda of the former.
The reality is that you have to manage public expectation whether in transport, the NHS or even (outside govt) the CAB. Again, growing a pair would be useful.
Civil servants using social media need to be very careful, as the Business Secretary's Private Secretary has just discovered. Frankly if he's so stupid as to t***ter in his own name with his job title in his profile and then tweet on matters of political controversy he's far to unworldly to be a Minister's PS. Like a lot of Senior Civil Servants these days I suspect he's reached that level while still wet behind the ears.
He's lucky not to be on a gross misconduct charge. His career cards should be well marked though.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 12 Jan 15 at 11:58
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>> Zeddo,
>>
>> Me here not my knighted alter-ego; limit to how far I'm taking that one!!
>>
>> I didn't say the public were wrong but (hypothetically) the HA's own feedback contradicts media
>> assertions.
Two points there, it appears you have doubts about the HA's public feedback or you wouldn't have added the "hypothetical". On this point anyone here been asked, invited or participated in feedback? On the HA web page there is no easily apparent method for feedback apart from a link to a complaints procedure.
As far as the reference to "the mail agenda" in this case there isn't one, merely experienced road users expressing comments about the poor performance of the HA. There is no agenda. Disappointment maybe.
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I added the word hypothetically because, not being the real Sir B, I didn't know what they do. The website should offer a contact us facility for complaints or incident specific feedback Wouldn't expect a user survey to run direct from a web link though as the sample would be self selecting. A pop up maybe?
My former employer's parent used an outside body to contact users as part of an annual feedback cycle. There were also user groups in the main public facing organisations. The cost of the annual survey was a big issue and I'm not sure it's still done in same way.
I'd expect HA to have a user or stakeholder group and to commission some sort of survey as above and indeed they do.
There's one here for 12/13:
www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/336434/2013_-_06_NRUSS_Annual_Report_and_Appendices_2012-13.pdf
While quoted responses include the sort of thing you complain about general satisfaction seems quite high though with surprising level of regional variation.
The media generally have an agenda for stuff that sells papers. Government fails is much more likely to fit that bill than government succeeds. The Mail, as we regularly note here has long form for distortion and outright lies in pursuit of its commercial (and political) agenda. Other press organs/agendas are also available though Mail is winner summa cum laude on that score.
I simply observe that Ministers and Senior Public Servants should be less cowed than at present in responding.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 12 Jan 15 at 13:03
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>> I added the word hypothetically because, not being the real Sir B, I didn't know
>> what they do.
Neither do I, and that indicates that both of us have never been offered or had the chance to offer feedback.
>>The website should offer a contact us facility for complaints or incident
>> specific feedback Wouldn't expect a user survey to run direct from a web link though
>> as the sample would be self selecting. A pop up maybe?
A simple "how are we doing" link is sufficient. Don't expect a full blown survey.
Two items that suggest to me that public perception is being disregarded
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 12 Jan 15 at 13:06
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>> Neither do I, and that indicates that both of us have never been offered or
>> had the chance to offer feedback.
Whatever the meaningful sample size for such a survey, even if it were 100k users, the probability of one of us being called is very low.
>> A simple "how are we doing" link is sufficient. Don't expect a full blown survey.
I agree that would be useful. Complaints are a source of free customer feedback and should be seen in that light rather than as something to be fought off at all cost.
They are though a different thing from a satisfaction survey.
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Your world is so small...the M25 to be precise.
If I'm heading south on the A1 heading south at Wetherby and there is an accident on the M1 at Leicester then I want to know about it. I can then keep on the A1 instead of adding to the congestion for those who can't avoid it.
I could give so many examples of this.
Pat
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>> Your world is so small...the M25 to be precise.
Don't be such a tit Pat you know thats not the case.
>> I could give so many examples of this.
Answer this question then, why this particular incident was not signed when I joined the M25 at Junc 3. A much more logical place to do it?
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>>I can then keep on the A1 instead of adding to the congestion for those who can't avoid it.
>>I could give so many examples of this.
>>
I too can give examples . Cambridge to Surrey, well off peak - North Circular closed for planned overnight works. NO warnings so I am stuck in it for almost an hour with no option of out.
You know there are many alternatives so you can see why I am not happy about it.
Perhaps I am a very unlucky driver ? I do not venture very far, 100 miles from home is normally the most but I do use motorways - M3, M25, M40, A1(M), M11 mostly and find problems with the signs.
We read the so called reasons but a lot consider the signs are not working well so as is said above folks are ignoring them.
It might help is new drivers were educated to understand some of the limitations of these signs but be aware not to trust them too much ? :-(
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>> EVEN THO THERE WAS A BLOCKAGE FOR YOU THAT WASNT SIGNED!
No need to shout old boy, I'm not deaf.
The M1 incident was mentioned as current on Radio at 16:00, at which time I was on Runcorn bridge, but cleared on the 17:00 bulletin - on A50 near Rocester. Even if it had been shown earlier information may have been removed by time I joined was rounding Stoke and hoping for a pointer.
Indeed that would be consistent with stuff posted by the HA 'mole' in Pat's link.
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>>
>> >> EVEN THO THERE WAS A BLOCKAGE FOR YOU THAT WASNT SIGNED!
>>
>> No need to shout old boy, I'm not deaf.
Indeed you are, albeit selectively.
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Touche (not).
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 11 Jan 15 at 23:39
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No need to shout old boy, I'm not deaf.
Thread drift - do not, ever shout at the deaf. It does not improve understanding, and is quite likely to have the effect of making you less easy to understand. Just use proper diction, speak a little slower and imagine you are reading the news on the BBC World Service.
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>> Just use proper diction, speak a little slower and imagine you are reading the news
>> on the BBC World Service.
Do we need to wear a dinner jacket?
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I've a foot in both camps to be honest. Like many here I've found the matrix warnings to be sometimes ( possibly often ) woefully inaccurate, but on the other hand, I do regularly set off on quite long journeys and if I'm given a warning about a potential problem a long way ahead, it can help me to decide whether to reroute or reschedule.
By and large, the national traffic broadcasts on BBC radio tend to be quite useful and more accurate, although they are also not infallible. But the combination of information, from the radio, the matrix signs and from the smart sat nav in my car does tend to lead you to a sensible conclusion as to what to decide to do next in most instances.
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>> the radio, the matrix signs and from the smart sat nav in my car does
>> tend to lead you to a sensible conclusion as to what to decide to do
>> next in most instances.
That's pretty much my attitude. The matrix signs are one of several pieces of information. If they say 'congestion' or 'salt spreading' I'm not disappointed if I miss a jam or don't get my car pebble-dashed.
Neither do I expect the warned of congestion to be round the next bend. The system that tracks a sample of cars is prone to being occasionally misled by a few bunches. The TrafficMaster Oracle in my Xantia used same technology and sometimes gave spurious warning.
Matrix signs prompt to up the observation a notch or too and think what options are if it gets bad. They're no more an Oracle than TrafficMaster was.
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Isn't the rather boring truth that the Highways Agency try to do their best, usuallythe information is useful and relevant but occasionally, for a number of reasons, it's not?
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>> Isn't the rather boring truth that the Highways Agency try to do their best, usuallythe
>> information is useful and relevant but occasionally, for a number of reasons, it's not?
No
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Or to put it another way
Yes
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>> Or to put it another way
>>
>> Yes
Except of course its not Yes.
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So we can take that as a maybe?
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I know nothing, I come from Barcelona.
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Conclusion approaching 100 posts is YMMV.
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That something like the YMCA?
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No its civil service speak for "I am in the minority but i wont accept it"
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 12 Jan 15 at 14:30
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>> No its civil service speak for "I am in the minority but i wont accept
>> it"
I'm in a minority amongst those in this set of mostly middle aged males who've chosen to comment. Flying in face of facts to say otherwise.
Doesn't mean I'm wrong. Pat CG and to some extent Runfer are not following your line of doom.
EDIT See Pat below who admirably summarises the case.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 12 Jan 15 at 14:36
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For me, it's something I don't have any expectations from them so I don't really need my hand holding for every mile. I'm not middle ages either ;-)
If people want to use them of whatever level, then it's not a major drama. Me I find/found them to be of little use so just ignore them, but them being of little use doesn't really bother me.
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>> being of little use doesn't really bother me.
Nor me, I've made a decent living out of it for years.
;-)
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>>If they say 'congestion' or 'salt spreading' I'm not disappointed if I miss a jam or don't get my car pebble-dashed.
If I've contemplated making a 50 mile detour on account of them, and eventually decide not to make the detour, and discover there is nothing to see when I eventually get there, then well, no I'm not disappointed if the jam has disappeared, I am however disappointed with the duff gen.
Case in point. I drove to London from the North West on Saturday 27th (in pretty atrocious, sleety, weather). Having avoided the entirety of the M6 as far as Stoke on account of various incidents, I joined it to be warned of a jam just outside London. When - two or more hours later - I got there, there was a bit of light congestion, much as you might expect two hours after an accident. Certainly not worth diverting down the M1 for.
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Surely the conclusion of this discussion is that those who use the matrix signs as an aid to common sense feel they are of some help.
Those who want their hand held every mile feel they don't perform to standard.
Have we forgotten that as drivers we are expected to use our noddles as well?
Have we forgotten that the matrix network has to cater for the lowest common denominator, and thankfully there a none of those on here either.
I face lorry drivers consistently moaning about the HA, or wombles, as we call them until such time as a rock knocks a tap off a brake chamber in the centre lane of the M25 and the lorry stops.....suddenly, and won't move again.
The Wombles turn up, cone off the lanes, decide if the driver is capable of a 'bodge repair' to get it on the hard shoulder then stay until recovery has been sorted.
Suddenly, just for a couple of weeks the wombles are the best thing since sliced bread, but it never lasts.
People have short memories, prefer to follow like sheep and do the 'in' thing.
Criticise.
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Mon 12 Jan 15 at 14:35
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>> I face lorry drivers consistently moaning about the HA, or wombles, as we call them
I've not had any dealings them so no personal view, but I know quite a few coppers who did. Generally thought of in a poor light, one in particular was continously surprised more weren't knocked down on the mways. He found they had poor awareness when working on mways.
Like I said no experience of them, but their view was pretty consistent.
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>> Those who want their hand held every mile feel they don't perform to standard.
Is that your description of me?
>> Have we forgotten that as drivers we are expected to use our noddles as well?
I do - I now ignore them unless I have another form of verification.
>> Criticise.
With justification.
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>>>> Criticise.
With justification. <<
Yes, but predictably boring because if at some point you get stranded in the middle lane, you'll be praying someone has you on camera and will switch the lane closed sign on, as well as the 'Caution Obstruction' sign.
In fact that's a good description of you.....caution, obstruction, I like it!
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Mon 12 Jan 15 at 15:00
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and will switch the lane closed
>> sign on, as well as the 'Caution Obstruction' sign.
>>
And if it's on the A1 they can leave it switched on for a few weeks ;-)
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>> In fact that's a good description of you.....caution, obstruction, I like it!
And you wonder why people tend to get personal with you and snap back at you. Wont be long now before you start whining that you don't like posting in here because of the atmosphere.
4 entires and you have turned a lively discussion personal and sour.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 12 Jan 15 at 15:12
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>> And you wonder why people tend to get personal with you and snap back at
>> you. Wont be long now before you start whining that you don't like posting in
>> here because of the atmosphere.
Come off it Z. You're first to respond with personal digs, not least in this thread.
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>>
>> >> And you wonder why people tend to get personal with you and snap back
>> at
>> >> you. Wont be long now before you start whining that you don't like posting
>> in
>> >> here because of the atmosphere.
>>
>> Come off it Z. You're first to respond with personal digs, not least in this
>> thread.
And expect responses for those I had a dig at, not those I didn't.
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I have no personal dealings with Wombles that I can remember, but I've seen them at work often enough. What they do sometimes is very high risk and they seem strangely gung-ho about it. Pat seems pretty correct I'd say. Chapeau, really.
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Oh for goodness sake Z, don't expect to have a go at me and me not to have a go back.
Surely if I can take a bit of straight talking from you the least I expect you to do is brace those broad shoulders in return.
I don't agree with you, tough, it happens.
I say so, and tell you why, live with it.
Pat
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>> Oh for goodness sake Z, don't expect to have a go at me and me
>> not to have a go back.
I said nothing to you to justify "have a go back"
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Look, I'm not used to pussyfooting around blokes, you know that.....and I'm not about to change now.
Pat
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>> Case in point. I drove to London from the North West on Saturday 27th (in
>> pretty atrocious, sleety, weather).
Not sure I follow that MM. Surely the M6 leads to the M1, or do you use M6/M40 for your end of London.
M6 J15 to M1 J16 is almost exactly same mileage via Birmingham or via A500/A50, joining M1 at J24.
Bit longer via toll road but pretty much no congestion so maybe faster.
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A thought ?. The first image is maybe a response to the OE ?
( Please be aware of the language on the site )
everyonesanidiot.co.uk/tag/motorway-signs/
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>> A thought ?. The first image is maybe a response to the OE ?
>> ( Please be aware of the language on the site )
>>
>> everyonesanidiot.co.uk/tag/motorway-signs/
He does exactly what I do. Reads the information and files it. If he doesn't want to know heavy rain is expected then that's fine, just ignore it.
Why get ranty about information he can use/ignore as he wishes? Does he rant at the TV news because he thinks none of it is relevant to him?
Personally I'm quite happy to know that heavy rain or snow is expected. It might impact on my journey time or lead me to consider an alternative route.
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Liverpool and back again today to deliver that b cornet.
Took M6 from J1 rather than M1/A50 on way out only. Most signs just showing time distance. VSL was in operation on the elevated section along with a (wholly justified) warning of side winds.
Salt spreading was apparently taking place in Staffs, thought temp marginal for it TBH. Actually saw a gritter too, albeit going other way.
One sign on A50 advised of delays on A38 northbound.
A counsel of perfection would have welcomed a side wind warning on the M1 as by 15:00 it was more than breezy.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 15 Jan 15 at 17:46
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Late last night I did a run to Oxford and back.
I checked traffic England before departing.
Quite a few matrix signs warning about gritting and quite a few showing
RED X MEANS LANE CLOSED.
A sad reflection on folks that they have to post this information ?
On my way back some were showing this information.
I saw no gritters but was a little surprised to see a 20 mph speed restriction on the reduced to single lane exit from the M25 to the M3 north.
The M3 south exit was totally blocked off but with two red Xs over the top.
The M3 south approaching the M25 had 40 mph amber signs which were being noted but no one slowed down. A very bright flashing light ahead turned out to be a traffic car travelling slowly (40mph?) on the hard shoulder. Trying to hint about speed ?
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Liverpool and back yesterday.
Also saw the RED X = CLOSED message. There must be a campaign on it as there were also posters on subject at Sandbach services. Needed too. Mentioned in the Dartford Crossing thread just before Xmas seeing vehicles pouring into the offside lane of one of the tunnels even though the cross and wig/wags were showing.
Otherwise they showed:
Congestion and queueing M56 to S of Knutsford - accurate
Congestion J9 to J5 on M6; ducked off onto A50 as consequence
Delays on M1 J20 to J19 - accurate; took A426/A5 from J20 M/way was visibly slow/stopped before and after J19.
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The Lad and his g/f were off back to Liverpool today. Awful driving weather on the M1 and M6. The A50 was a more pleasant interlude. Like everywhere else he drives too fast in rain and lacks anticipation.
Matrices were displaying only road safety messages northbound except for salt spreading on last few miles of M6 - after rain had eased.
Returning, approaching the M6 on M56 they announced 'M6 J21A to 17 - Long Delays'. First though was that we could have done that sooner when use of A roads through Cheshire was still a possibility.
In fact, although it was slow and 'bunchy', with advisories between 40 nd 60 with 'Queue Ahead' we kept moving until it cleared after the roadworks J17>16.
Plenty advance warning of congestion round Brum so default of A50 was used again.
Satnav got a bit confused 'cos it kept trying to get me to turn back to M6 until after Britannia Stadium so miles to destination were a bit fluid - I think though A50 is, at most, 4 miles longer than 'classic' M6 through West Mids.
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>
>> Returning, approaching the M6 on M56 they announced 'M6 J21A to 17 - Long Delays'.
Had rellys over for lunch today. They live in the City of Thelwall and noted the M6 was chokka as they passed over it at the Lymm interchange.
That's a long way to crawl...21 to 17. I wonder what it was..there was nowt on the NW news.
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>> That's a long way to crawl...21 to 17. I wonder what it was..there was nowt
>> on the NW news.
I think it's a capacity issue Ted. Perhaps made worse by the roadworks and 50 limit 17-16. Was bad on Friday too.
This weekend was the return from Feb half term so weekend traffic well up on winter normal. It was bad pretty well all day yesterday, the Traffic England website showed it as slow before I left here at 14:15. Was bad as we passed through opposite direction around 16:30.
Beginning to ease off by time we were homebound round there c19:00.
Is that section scheduled for conversion to smart/managed running?
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>> >> That's a long way to crawl...21 to 17. I wonder what it was..there was
>> nowt
>> >> on the NW news.
>>
>> Is that section scheduled for conversion to smart/managed running?
>>
Not read anything in the paper...certainly part of the M60 is.
M6 both directions flowing freely at 1145 and 1750 today. Mind you ,We only crossed over it just South of Knutsford services and we were on 24 wheels with a driver !
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>> The M3 south approaching the M25 had 40 mph amber signs which were being noted
>> but no one slowed down. A very bright flashing light ahead turned out to be
>> a traffic car travelling slowly (40mph?) on the hard shoulder. Trying to hint about speed
Wednesday morning, M25 Northbound, 08:15
Between Heathrow T5 and M4 junctions, One sign saying "gritting in progress"
No there was no gritting in progress, no other signs about gritting and gritting does not take place on a very slow congested motorway in rush hour.
There was however a stationary queue, caused by an accident in the opposing carriage way. The speed limit signs indicating an issue started some mile or so after you had joined the back of the queue.
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caused by an accident in the opposing carriage way.
>
Probably caused by someone watching for gritters ;-)
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Are M-way matrix signs totally pointless? - Zero
