Title is a bi misleading but I could not fit a longer on one.
I am looking into new cars, I am not going to buy one this year but I don't want to be driving a car I bought in my mid 20's (well 27) as I approach my 40's!.
I was thinking next year might be a good time to change, it will be six years old and still worth something come p/x. However I will probably end up still keeping my Panda as usual.
I paid £6100 for my Panda back in 2010, it was the base spec but with metallic paint which bumped up the price. For that I still get electric windows, airbags (only two), ABS, CD player, central locking and power steering. I think the list at the time was about £7800. I am staggered to see the list price of the new base spec Panda is £9800!! Yep £10k for a poverty spec Panda, while I know I could get a discount it is still going to cost at least £8000. Imagine some poor sod that does pay £10k for it, it would loose about £3k just leaving the show room. My car has lost £3k in 5 years.
This brings me on to what cheap cars you could buy. The obvious choice would be a £6600 Dacia Sandero, not the £6000 base version but this £6600 comes with all the basic modern essentials like electric windows and a CD player etc. It has the bullet proof 1.2 16v Renault engine and from what I have seen looks like a very decent honest car that isn't trying to be something it is not, unlike the new Panda.
The Citygo looks like a great choice at £8200, but again the base spec is just too basic even compared to my 5 year old Panda and a 5 door is essential for me, so by the time I spec it up it will cost £10k.
Even the Hyundai and Kias are a lot more expensive than they were a few years ago. All this answers the question why I have seen so many Dacias on the road lately. They are the true Lada of the modern day but only time will tell if they rust like one.
So are FIAT, Hyundai, Kia etc now missing the point? The new i10 for me is still a much better proposition than the Panda because of the warranty and general what seems to be decent dealers that don't rip you off. They seem to be about 2/3 of the price of the FIAT dealer for the same jobs.
Even Skoda are at it, the Fabia used to be a great value car that was reliable and well made. Now it is so expensive a good car value for money car it probably still is, but it is just like every good mainstream small car.
And the next car I might be driving? Well it is good news, You've guessed it, the Dacia Sandero.
If I wanted to spend £10k on a car, it would be a Polo or a Fiesta etc, not a budget car with an inflated price.
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>> Title is a bi misleading but I could not fit a longer on one.
>>
>> I am looking into new cars, I am not going to buy one this year
>> but I don't want to be driving a car I bought in my mid 20's
>> (well 27) as I approach my 40's!.
If you keep spending money on new cars every 4 years to replace perfectly good ones, you'll still be living at home in your 40s rather than in your own home.
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Rats, what does a Dacia Sandero do that a FIAT Panda doesn't?
Both can fit four passengers, both have small boots. The Dacia may well rust (the Dusters do, anyway) whereas the Panda won't. And you've paid off the Panda.
I passed our old 2003 Panda on the road last Sunday. I was surprised to see it - it's was bought by a gent living some distance from us - but it still hadn't a mark on it and was keeping pace with motorway traffic nicely - and it must have done 100,000 miles at this stage. We'd still have it only we needed five adult sized seats...
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As I thought I mad clear I was only half looking, and I am not even considering it until late 2016, by which time the car will more than six years old. The size is the main issue of the Panda I keep all my kit in the boot (not worth anything) so it means having to put shopping on the back seats etc.
It has needed some fettling lately but a new battery has cured a lot of the 'issues'. Next job is to clean the connectors to the ECU and the earth straps. The only real reason I would want to change it is boredom. Lets not make this topic go off topic though, my question really was why there are now such a lack of properly cheap new cars compared to a few years ago.
My car does have a big scratch, been there for a year now (was a leaving present from a neighbour he helped get evicted) but as it has been there for so long I am reluctant to get it done before I am worried a new dent will appear the week after if I do!.
As I said I probably won't change my car, but there is nothing wrong with having an interest in what is out there.
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Well, if you're a new manufacturer to a particular market, or an existing manufacturer trying to break into a new sector, than the least difficult way of achieving it is to start at the cheap end of the market, so punters are attracted to your good value for money products. Not just talking about cars here, applies to just about anything.
Then once you've established some market share you gradually rack the price up, on the assumption the 'value for money' tag will stick for a while; and hopefully allowing for an increased profit margin. Eventually the product is just one of the crowd, competing on level terms with the established players.
Datsun did it in the seventies, the reborn Skoda did it more recently, then Kia and Hyundai.
Now Dacia and Ssanyong will probably go down the same path.
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So, in other words you are thinking of changing in 18 months time at the earliest - a lot can happen to you, your financial circumstances and the car market in that time so I really don't think its worth you wasting your time at this stage looking at what is available.
However regarding your point of cars being overpriced etc, I agree that the i10 still seems to be the car of best value at that range - in fact I have recommended that to my daughter if she is serious about trying to get a cheapish running costs car.
But you also refer to being modern with a CD player - I think it is 8 years since I last played a CD in a car !! Don't think my daughter even possesses any CDs!
A must have nowadays is an aux input / Bluetooth streaming, even for a base car.
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I agree it is just something to pass the time away etc, my car has a CD player and no AUX, but it was the base spec, I could easily change the head unit but I rarely listen to music when driving anyway.
The i10 has gone wrong more than the Panda, but everything has been fixed under warranty, it has been a very very cheap car to run, what happens when the warranty runs out in two years time is another matter though. The i10 seems very prone to suspension bush wear but that is covered under the 5 year warranty.
The i10 has a CD player too, but it does have 3.5mm and USB aux inputs.
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Just looking at i10s on Auto Trader. What does Cat D mean? Some sort of insurance write off?
Looking at the photos, I couldn't see what was wrong?
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>> What does Cat D mean? Some sort of insurance write off?
More than likely.
>> Looking at the photos, I couldn't see what was wrong?
A category D car is one that has sustained sufficient damage for the insurance company to decide it would be uneconomical to repair it.
It might well be repaired economically but written off because of other factors. This might be as simple as the cost of a hire car for the owner while the work is being done that makes them too expensive for insurers.
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I think this is the car that I was looking at last night.
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201502120896591
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 18 Feb 15 at 10:03
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It might well have been a previous accident damaged car, repaired and put back on the road. There will be a record of it somewhere, eg a HPI check. It won't appear on the V5c though, IIRC. Cat C will appear on a V5c though, along with when the VIC test was carried out.
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Rattle - if I understand your situation (from years of your posts) you shouldn't even be looking at cars. Are you still doing the "pocket money" PC repairing?
There's nothing wrong in having an interest yes. If you financed your Panda on a monthly payment (loan) and have don't have much capital to spare, then I suggest running your Panda another 4 or 5 years.
I've been there, most of us have. Were the same age and in the same profession, use your skills intelligently and apply them to a secure job - that is all I can say.
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Never mind the price of new Pandas - have you seen the eye-watering prices of ordinary FIAT 500s?
EEEK!
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Here's your target price for the current base model Panda
preview.tinyurl.com/pssv8uw
They are asking £7195 but have some delivery mileage cars for £6495.
I've driven both your Panda and the newer version and the latter is without doubt a big improvement.
However the true spiritual successor to the Panda Active 1.1 is without doubt the Dacia Sandero. I have driven both the 1.2 and 0.9TCe petrol versions and, through my wife, experienced ownership of one of these cars for nearly 2 years.
The interior is much bigger, including the boot, when compared with the Panda. The 1.2 engine is all you need for city driving but the middle spec Ambiance is worth paying a little extra for.
I see no evidence of the corrosion that plagued the Indian-built Dusters and my feeling is that the body will last as long as a Panda's will.
I don't view the Dacia Sandero as the Lada "de nos jours" as the former is properly engineered and the components competently manufactured. The engineering is, however refreshingly simple and likely to be reliable.
I know you are only browsing at the moment but that is an enjoyable pastime and in no way a waste of your time. I do it all the time and have purchased some wonderful cars in my imagination (best place for many of them).
I've spent a motoring lifetime buying and enjoying utilitarian cars. It has saved me a lot of money which can then be spent on actually driving the things to places you want to visit and doing what you want to do. Much better than having an expensive ornament outside your house that you can't afford to use and are terrified to let out of your sight.
We all now know how hard a city Manchester is
preview.tinyurl.com/mqvvfwp
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Lol cheeky git :).
Another thing I like about the Sandero is the high suspension, with all the pot holes round here that sort of durability is a lot more important than a sports suspension setup found on a lot of modern superminis.
One concern about the Dacia though would be the dealers, this by far the worst thing about my Panda, although it is now at an age where I can completely avoid them. I still cannot get over the fact they wanted close to £500 for a service, brake pads and one tyre!
I have a friend who had a Clio MK2B with a 1.2 16V engine, she took it to 130,000 miles with dodgy servicing and even rolled it over (just on its side). The car is still on the road with 170,000 miles on it!
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Keep the Panda and run it into the ground. Far cheaper option than px 'while it's still worth something'.
I'll be starting a 150,000 miles in a Berlingo thread later this week to show you the way to go.
On 149916 now but I'm not tempting fate until the magic number actually comes up. Should happen on Thursday when we go to the caravan show at the NEC.
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Dacias are sold from Renault dealerships. I would imagine there's more choice of those in your area than Fiat offered.
There's good and bad Renault dealers, ask around for local opinions. My experience of buying Dacias from dealers in Sunderland and Bristol has been largely positive.
Basic servicing is around £160.
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Personally I like the look of the Dacia Duster, a decent holdall of a car. One of those, with the biggest petrol engine option, decently undersealed, might well be my sort of off-the-peg new runabout. Buy it from a dealer but get it looked after by a decent indy mechanic (haven't you found one yet Sheikha?).
I agree with others about the Panda. Lots of life in it yet. Why move it on at vast expense if you aren't going to change to something better?
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>>If you keep spending money on new cars every 4 years to replace perfectly good ones...
Yes, there's plenty of better ways of spending your hard earned cash. I bought my first new car when I was 35, and didn't part with it until I was nigh on 50.
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And no offence Sheikha, but these terms 'budget' and 'premium'... we might be talking about ready meals or cheapo clothing. What's wrong with 'cheap' and 'expensive'? Or even 'obviously rubbish' and 'overpriced but decently pretentious'?
New cars, even lousy ones, cost thousands of pounds. 'Budget' sounds like 79p past-sell-by-date pizza.
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So, I shouldn't offer advice since I've probably 'wasted' (depends on your definition of waste I guess) GBP50K on cars over the years - probably less than supporting a smoking habit though.
Since most of that 'waste' goes on early deprecation (how about GBP10K in 2 years on a Golf VI) - why not buy a newish 'better' car ? With longer warranties you'll probably get the peace of mind that you (perhaps) seek whist getting to drive something more substantial - a Focus, Astra, Golf, i30, Ceed or whatever ?
Having said that, at 27 the world is your oyster, maybe think about going out and exploring it, then maybe you won't need a car for a while ? Stupendously arrogant of me to offer such advice I know but there you have it....
Last edited by: idle_chatterer on Tue 17 Feb 15 at 23:23
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Since most of that 'waste' goes on early deprecation...
People are rude about your new car? S'pose that's Australians for you.
};---)
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>> Since most of that 'waste' goes on early deprecation...
>>
>> People are rude about your new car? S'pose that's Australians for you.
>> };---)
>>
Whoops, depreciation - autocorrect, hmm.
However, they are rude about most things 'Pommie' (I enjoyed their wit at the MCG watching the cricket on Saturday for instance) but not my new car (an Outback) since that's (for good reason) considered a sensible choice around here.
The dreadful depreciation on the Golf was due to the reputation of the DQ200 DSG, VW residuals have tumbled here - best to stick with a Mazda 3 or a Toyota Corolla if in the market for a small car over here I'd suggest.
Last edited by: idle_chatterer on Tue 17 Feb 15 at 23:41
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'Cheap' and 'expensive' don't really do the subject justice, though, AC, once you look at cost of ownership. You may think I have an 'expensive' Mercedes - and in some ways I do - but for the £16,000 I paid for it at three years old, I could have had my pick of the Vauxhall range on some sort of pre-reg wheeze. That would have been effectively a new car, and looked 'cheap' at that price.
Three years on, my car is probably still worth £10,000 or so, while I might get 50p for the imaginary Vauxhall (not actually a bad price for an imaginary car, unless you've previously paid £16,000 for it.) Even with a couple of hundred extra for insurance and services (plus it's not the most fuel-efficient, even with the airport taxi engine) I reckon it's cost me less to own than a £16,000 Vauxhall. So which is the cheap car?
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Tsk, WdB... just talking about the offensively genteel terms budget and premium, and the prices of cars new. I didn't say anything about perceived or real quality, longevity and so on. I'd rather have the right sort of Mercedes than most Vauxhalls (there are exceptions, e.g. Vauxhall-badged Holden V8s, Commodore). I'm not a total philistine.
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I am not 27 now, I was 27 when I bought my Panda, which I bought to last me for four years, I've had it five years nearly now.
You need to look at the total cost of ownership too, I figured by buying a new car because I do low mileage in the first three years I would not have to spend a penny on consumables. Even now the total maintenance cost has been less than £300 per year which includes the usual service at an Italian specialist, brakes, tyres, wipers, batteries etc.
I also have no off road parking, so I wouldn't anything too flash, although a neighbour drives a 62 plate Audi A6 and another has a brand new Mito.
I would never spend £16k on a new Vauxhall though, the point of a £6500 'budget' car is although they do depreciate they cost so little you loose quite little. I am amazed at how much people spend on say 8 year old Golfs etc.
If I was in the market for a motorway mile muncher then I would not buy brand new, but I would buy something on the used market.
The cost of parts and the cost of repairs has to be a major part of budget car, as does insurance. The insurance is very cheap and I would say the cost of repairs is average but there isn't that many expensive parts to go wrong and a decent brand tyre is £45 a pop.
Top Gear actually did a feature a few years back, why buy a £6k Pixo new when you can buy a V12 Merc for the same money? I think small basic cars do make a lot of sense to buy new, because the used price isn't actually that much different.
Back to my original statement I was thinking of this thread when I was driving before, my car sounds brand new, there is no clunks or rattles, the idle issue is now fixed since changing the battery and it is still a joy to drive. Only the lack of power and the small boot bother me.
I saw an MG3 for the first time today, now that looks like a budget car I wouldn't want to buy . An engine based on the K series (the N series), panel gaps wider than the Thames and it looks like it belongs in 2005. Too little too late but if they are cheap enough I bet they offer quite a lot of power the money.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Wed 18 Feb 15 at 00:13
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rats keep the car you save the 4k on something else if you still desire another car instead of buying new get a two years old motor which has already done the depreciation and new car gremlins dealt with the first owner.
since you do low miles, have a look at petrol's not diesels, what with dpf, unless you buy a civic 2.2 ctdi which i have lovely motor and got the punch compared to the jazz i had previously.
i can understand driving the same car for 5 years as i drove the same car for 7 years a jazz, but if you like not go for new, but go 2nd hand then there are a wider choice and bargains.
if you worry about reliability then buy approved used by dealers.
if you worry about the future cost then dont change but keep the fiat
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>> my car sounds brand new, there is no clunks or rattles, the idle issue is now fixed since changing the battery and it is still a joy to drive. Only the lack of power and the small boot bother me.
Sheikha you are a total mystery to me. Why does the lack of power bother you? You have always underlined the great caution of your driving style. Has there been a change of heart?
:o}
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>> 'Cheap' and 'expensive' don't really do the subject justice, though, AC, once you look at
>> cost of ownership. You may think I have an 'expensive' Mercedes - and in some ways I do - but for the £16,000 I paid for it at three years old, I could have had my pick of the Vauxhall range on some sort of pre-reg wheeze. That would have been effectively a new car, and looked 'cheap' at that price.
The facts are, that over the last few years most manufacturers have improved the quality of their cars no end, where as Mercedes have reduced it.
Ten years ago, there was no comparison between, say a Ford and a Merc, but today?
The spec and build quality are much closer than one would expect.
Last edited by: swiss tony on Wed 18 Feb 15 at 06:41
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If you'd said 20 years, ST, I'd agree. But 10 years ago puts you in MB's darkest period for quality and reliability - SBC brakes, Valeo radiators, rust - whereas my 2009 car feels and has been pretty solid, dodgy rear parking sensor apart. As noted elsewhere, I don't like the design of many of its current models, but that's a different discussion.
I think you have experience in the trade, which I don't of course.
The last Ford I drove was probably an S-max in 2007, although I came home from the airport last week in a Galaxy. The Toyota we bought new was very well made but still cost us £10,000 to own for four years - almost as much as the Volvo we still have has cost us over 12.
There's certainly an effect from the way the 'premium' has spread into the everyday; MB, BMW and the rest have had to adapt their manufacturing methods to satisfy the increased demand made possible by increasing affluence and easy credit. And the depreciation we see here is largely due to the cheapness of new cars; other parts of Europe (Denmark is an extreme example) don't see anything like it.
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A friend of mine has just bought a three month old Ford Fiesta demonstration car (he had the choice of three, all about the same mileage), received the "full" PX price he had in mind and paid quite a lot less in the end than his original budget.
He's as happy as a pig in muck.
Got to be better than forking out additional money unnecessarily for a new car...:-)
Last edited by: Stuartli on Wed 18 Feb 15 at 13:23
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I bought my car as pre reg, six miles done, and saved thousands. I can live with it technically being a used car, it certainly offset the first years depreciation.
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We are seriously considering personal lease deals when we replace the Golf later this year.
We were offered a completely ridiculous deal in the run up to Christmas on a Fiesta ST-2 which I got as far as filling out the paperwork for before deciding it wasn't the right time. The total payments, including the deposit, would have barely covered 2 years depreciation if I'd bought it outright, never mind the maintenance, RFL and tyres it also included, plus interest (or loss of interest) on the capital.
If you accept that buying new and getting rid after 2-3 years isn't the most sensible thing to do however you finance it, and of course you can live without your name on the V5, leasing is very attractive at the moment.
Last edited by: DP on Wed 18 Feb 15 at 14:14
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Old Navy - That is how the Hyundai was bought. No messing around either, bought it on the Thursday and it was ready to collect on the Monday with just 6 miles on the clock. The saving was around £2000 from list or about £1300 from the real list.
What I don't like about those PCPs or leasing deals is the car never feels like it is yours, when I paid my car off I could finally feel like the Panda was mine and I could do what ever I want to it. In reality the car is still 100% unmodified.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Wed 18 Feb 15 at 14:46
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>> What I don't like about those PCPs or leasing deals is the car never feels
>> like it is yours, when I paid my car off I could finally feel like
>> the Panda was mine and I could do what ever I want to it. In
>> reality the car is still 100% unmodified.
If you plan to keep the car indefinitely, I absolutely agree with you. It makes sense to get it paid for and owned, and you can move on and do other things with the money. It is the most financially prudent way to do car ownership.
Buying a new car and changing it before it has reached the end of its reliable service life is, in cold logical terms, a waste of money, the level of waste being inversely proportional to the age of the car when you sell it. I fully accept replacing a car at 2-3 years old is financially pretty imprudent, but once you decide to do that, leasing feels like a very effective way of doing it. The primary advantages being you know up front exactly what the car is going to cost you during your 'ownership', and you don't have to free up (or finance) a large sum of money at the beginning. Also you avoid the not inconsiderable hassle of running around trying to get a decent price back for it in a market of time wasters.
It's one view. I'm not saying it's right, but for me the name on the V5 doesn't really matter, certainly in the context of the above.
We are currently running an 11 year old car that we've owned for 7 years, and which owes us nothing, so it is going to be a big adjustment if we do go the lease route. The other way we are looking at it is that it gives us an easy way to try some different stuff out over the next few years.
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>> There's certainly an effect from the way the 'premium' has spread into the everyday; MB,
>> BMW and the rest have had to adapt their manufacturing methods to satisfy the increased
>> demand made possible by increasing affluence and easy credit. And the depreciation we see here
I hire several cars a month so get to drive a few different models. Recently I've had a couple of Focus which have been unusually high mileage for daily rentals from Europcar - both around 25 - 30K on them. One in particular had led a very hard life, but what did stand out was that they still felt very well put together - no squeaks, rattles, knocks etc.
Thinking about it the only one I recall having recently which didn't feel quite as well put together was a Pug 2008, but that may be more because I just didn't like it
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>> If you'd said 20 years, ST, I'd agree. But 10 years ago puts you in MB's darkest period for quality and reliability - SBC brakes, Valeo radiators, rust - whereas my 2009 car feels and has been pretty solid, dodgy rear parking sensor apart. As noted elsewhere, I don't like the design of many of its current models, but that's a different discussion.
>>
>> I think you have experience in the trade, which I don't of course.
No, I disagree.
The darkest times were 1998 - 2002.
SBC was on the way out 10 years ago - the facelift 211 lost it.
Valeo rad issues, was about 2005, I'll give you that.
Rust issues mostly sorted by 2003.
Yes, I do have considerable experience in the trade....I started in it in 1977...
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I thought the new C class was supposed to be well screwed together, a return to the old days. My experience of MB has been very positive. An ex lease huge mileage 4yo L reg E200 estate which we ran as a van with windows and part exd for stock with a supplier. The other an R reg C180 estate, bought at 3yo from a friend. Again, used mostly as a van. Both were used and abused, arthriticly slow, but fine work horses which served us well.
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e 4yo L reg E200 estate
The other an R reg C180 estate,
E class... a 124, well known to be the last of the 'built to design, not to a price' ie a proper Merc...
R plate C180...not a bad car, with a relatively problem free engine.
New C (205) yup, the quality of materials is good, some horrid interior design (bluetacked Ipad!! etc) bit cramped cabin, especially in the back.
Thats all I will say at the moment...
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I was out playing in an AMG A45 turbo yesterday. Aside from anything else, the build quality seemed superb.
It certainly felt a cut above most things.
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I know someone who has one of those as well, seems very happy with it. I quite like the interior of the A class doesn't seem overly fussy to me.
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FWIW What Car A3 v Golf v A180 group test:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkpqkopooTA
(they prefer the A3)
EDIT: 2013
Last edited by: Focusless on Thu 19 Feb 15 at 12:32
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Budget cars that are trying to go premium - Zero
