While I'm having my little Dyspeptic Friday (see brakes in Bromp's Berlingo thread) can we look at something that's often asserted here that I have difficulty making sense of?
When we've discussed DRLs and their increasing prevalence on our roads, someone often says that it's bad for motorcyclists because it will make them harder to see. I can see that when a motorbike is one light among several it will be harder to pick out the motorcycle as an individual, but that would matter only if there was a particular motorbike a driver wanted to hit. If the greatest hazard to motorcycles is drivers failing to spot them before emerging from a junction then DRLs make no difference at all; not even the most a***witted driver will fail to see a host of golden DRLs bearing down on him, and it won't matter what kind of vehicles they're attached to.
The only motorcyclists I can think of who might have a problem here are those who insist on making motorways a menace by using the Hogwarts Express lanes at full motorway speed. But since they seem happy to do that in darkness, when (almost) everyone has lights on anyway, I can't see that a bit of extra illumination in daylight will make them think any harder.
What am I missing?
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Fri 20 Feb 15 at 09:39
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>> What am I missing?
A motorbike with no lights on in daylight (##) vs car with DRLs on = car is easier to spot than motorcylist is.
A motorbike with no lights on in daylight vs car with no DRLs = biker is easier to spot when other motorists around him/her aren't lit up like Christmas trees.
## yes, you still get a handful who don't ride with their lights on.
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I think the point is that lit m/c amongst unlit cars are most noticeable, but m/cyclists now probably feel there is less they can do to stand out.
M/c are frequently overtaking or filtering - so you might pick up an approaching car, but not see the m/c overtaking it as both come towards you.
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A motorcyclist with his headlight on full beam in daytime is unmissable, except when he comes up suddenly at 100 mph.
Whether the dazzled car driver finds the cyclist equally unmissable is another matter.
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The TRRL did some research into this a good few years when the only cars lit were Volvo Battletanks - their conclusion was that bikes became less visible. BMW and Honda are combatting this invisibility cloak now by providing mirror mounted LED DRLs....What I hate are the idiots in cars at dawn and twilight with no lights at all.
Three quarters of the bike fleet here have hard wired lights, the BMW ones can be opted out of quite easily...my next bike (probably another 1200GS) has an LED headlamp and a sideways U of DRLs around the headlamp.
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>> The TRRL did some research into this a good few years when the only cars
>> lit were Volvo Battletanks - their conclusion was that bikes became less visible.
WdB isn't disputing that - he just thinks it doesn't matter, because anyone who as a consequence doesn't see the bike will be keeping out of the cars that are hiding it anyway.
But I don't think that caters for the bike that is overtaking the oncoming traffic. Somebody could still emerge from a junction, or themselves pull out to overtake, into the path of the bike.
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...sideways U...
Is that a C?
}:---C
In what way 'less visible'? And with what consequences? This is the problem I came in with: repeating the assertion without supplying any context or clarification. It would be instructive to read the original TRL research, if anyone has a link.
Adding more lights to motorcycles isn't necessarily the answer. At night, a motorbike with two headlamps looks in the mirror like a distant car. Shaped DRLs, as on cars, are useful. As for M's filtering and overtaking, would motorcyclists consider behaving more like proper road users rather than imagining the things their machines can do they must be entitled to do?
Yes, I know it's not all of them, but it's enough to make them a bleedin' nuisance.
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The main benefit of a m/c seems to be getting in front, overtaking where a wider and/or slower vehicle can't.
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>> The main benefit of a m/c seems to be getting in front, overtaking where a
>> wider and/or slower vehicle can't.
>>
There has to be some payoff for the misery, cold and inconvenience of riding a bike!
Even my modest 600cc could do 0-60 in about 4 seconds.
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>> The main benefit of a m/c seems to be getting in front, overtaking where a
>> wider and/or slower vehicle can't.
Which is exactly the same benefit a pedal bike has in urban crawl. And likewise there are some here who think that benefit should be forsaken to save them the troubleresponsibility of looking out for filtering road user.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 20 Feb 15 at 21:23
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Read carefully, everyone, and you'll notice I reserve my disapproval for those who 'filter' at full motorway speed. That's antisocial, dangerous and illegal, and I can't imagine Tigger's police rider approving of it.
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>> Read carefully, everyone, and you'll notice I reserve my disapproval for those who 'filter' at full motorway speed...
In your original post, yes. I was responding to a later one which seemed more encompassing.
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>> Which is exactly the same benefit a pedal bike has in urban crawl. And likewise there are some here who think that benefit should be forsaken to save them the troubleresponsibility of looking out for filtering road user.
>>
Doesn't some of the responsibility of filtering (in fact most!) belong in the hands of the two wheelers operator?
As a motorcyclist I am fully aware of the fact may other roadusers will not see me, or expect me to be filtering, so I take that into account when deciding whether to or not.
I do recognise the fact, that on a mb I do have the added help of powerful lights, a horn, better brakes, and acceleration, but when on a cycle, I take even more care!
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>> As for M's filtering and overtaking, would motorcyclists consider behaving more like proper road users...
1. When I took my motorbike test, I was told I would fail if I failed to take the opportunity to filter. Even the examiner commented on that during the debrief
2. When I was filtering through the traffic on the A3, a police biker who had been at the side of the road waited for me to get close, then set off himself ahead of me, also filtering (and opening up a much bigger gap than the cars were giving me!)
Final point: Bikers ARE proper road users. Just because half the car drivers I meet are morons doesn't mean I rant about them!
(Now an ex-biker, who gave up ~4 years ago, partly because DRLs were the final nail in the coffin for me)
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Most Car drivers are insulated idiots. Devoid of any notion of their presence to others and certainly devoid of any realisation of what is happening around them.
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>> it's bad for motorcyclists because it will make them harder to see
>>. I can see that when a motorbike is one light among several it will
>> be harder to pick out the motorcycle as an individual, but that
>>would matter only if there was a particular motorbike a driver
>>wanted to hit.
Not really. Part of it is to be seen, but the other is to be identified when seen.
The behaviour, capabilities and implications of different types of vehicle are different, substantially so between a bike and a car. Lights on bikes was brought in given the amount of accidents caused partly when other drivers failed to see the bike but also when they failed to assess it as a bike.
As for motorcycles being annoying, I guess that I've been lucky. Because I get annoyed by cars frequently, cycles quite often but bikes substantially less.
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I don't allow myself to get annoyed by much when I'm driving. It's rarely useful.
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There must be something, go on you know you want to. ;-)
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No really, it just never seems worth the effort. You just have to accept that some people will do daft, aggressive or just plain stupid things most days. You can get anxious or annoyed, self righteous or angry about many of these things but those reactions almost never cure them. Like sounding a horn in retribution rather than as a warning it just doesn't make a nervous or inconsiderate road user any better and can make them worse.
Better just to mitigate your own actions in order to avoid them. Takes two to tango usually.
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>> No really,
A perfect Peter then :-)
There must be something, non driving then?
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A perfect cynic more like ;-)
Leopards and people rarely change their spots no matter how much we would like them to. The line of least resistance is just to let them carry on and make sure where possible they don't entagle you in their ineptitudes.
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>> The behaviour, capabilities and implications of different types of vehicle are different, substantially so between a bike and a car. Lights on bikes was brought in given the amount of
>> accidents caused partly when other drivers failed to see the bike but also when they
>> failed to assess it as a bike.
Exactly.
Heres a way of proving it.
disable one of your headlamps and sidelamps on your car.
now drive around for a while.
I guarantee more people will pull out in front of you!
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I always try to be aware of other vehicles blind areas while driving, a quick glance at a number plate or the language signwritten on the back of a lorry gives a hint at which side the driver is on. I think many urban two wheel tragedies, and other collisions could be avoided if two wheel users took more responsibility for their own safety and did not expect all other road users to be responsible for their safe progress. If you think that DRLs make you less visible, drive or ride appropriately.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 21 Feb 15 at 11:08
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>> I always try to be aware of other vehicles blind areas while driving, a quick glance at a number plate or the language signwritten on the back of a lorry gives a hint at which side the driver is on. I think many urban two wheel tragedies, and other collisions could be avoided if two wheel users took more responsibility for their own safety and did not expect all other road users to be responsible for their safe progress.
>>
Exactly.
Pity some people are too busy blaming others whilst not looking out themselves.
(Not just on pedal powered machines BTW)
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I have just been out in the car, it is a dull overcast afternoon here and many cars have their lights on. As I stopped at the end of my road (poor line of sight) I saw a scooter approaching from my right. My first thought was "No lights" as he got very close I realised that the scooter had DRLs on, they were like knackered glow worms, and almost as bad as no lights at all.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 23 Feb 15 at 16:34
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No doubt you retain a hawk-like seaman's long-sightedness ON. My own distance eyesight was terrific when I was young, but age withers all things and it isn't what it was.
I am sometimes dazzled by car headlights these days, especially at dusk. Modern car headlights are very bright. Tightly focused, but often set wrong one side or the other, and vehicles can change their stances with load e.g. at the rear.
Didn't bother me when I was younger, but now my gaze is drawn faffingly to the brightest thing it can see, like a moronic moth. Ghastly carp, getting old, losing hold...
Still manage of course, fingers crossed.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 23 Feb 15 at 18:11
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Not casting aspersions on the intelligence (or otherwise...) of Lexus drivers but less than half an hour ago I saw one of the hatchback variants being driven along the A27 towards Arundel (an unlit section of dual carriageway) on DRLs only!! No wonder they were going slowly :-0
Last edited by: PeterS on Mon 23 Feb 15 at 19:15
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I suspect that some people don't know the difference between DRLs and auto lights.
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Too true, Peter. See the same every evening on the westbound M4. If they had nice automatic headlamps (as, in fact, I presume Lexuses do if you leave the switch in the right position) it wouldn't be such a problem. I'd require all cars to have them.
};---)
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I expect there will be mandatory hard wired auto lights one day with an override for bright low visibility. That means no lights in fog. :)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 23 Feb 15 at 19:38
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Can't be impossible to devise a fog sensor to switch fog lamps on and off automatically.
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>> Can't be impossible to devise a fog sensor to switch fog lamps on and off
>> automatically.
>>
I'd like to see rear fog lights linked to the ECU, prohibiting the car from exceeding 40 mph if they're switched on.
It being a given that if you need fog lights on, that's the fastest you really should be driving.
Would have the added bonus of reminding retarded drivers (pun intended) to switch the damn things off.
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>> Would have the added bonus of reminding retarded drivers (pun intended) to switch the damn
>> things off.
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People just wouldn't turn them on, or wire another set in bypassing the ECU. If you wanted I doubt it would be hard.
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Thought I'd take a quick look at the Lexus website to check... Urghhh...what a mess! Couldn't find whether they do or not. But I'd be surprised if they didn't. So user error... Though they are surely only chosen by pretentious, but miserly, company car drivers who don't want to pay much BIK tax but won't drive a Toyota Pious and are under the misapprehension that Lexus is, basically, a Japanese Mercedes ;-)
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>> Too true, Peter. See the same every evening on the westbound M4. If they had
>> nice automatic headlamps (as, in fact, I presume Lexuses do if you leave the switch
>> in the right position) it wouldn't be such a problem. I'd require all cars to
>> have them.
>> };---)
I was just about to construe this as a great example of why auto lights should be banned!
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Hard wired auto lights should be easier to fit than auto indicators. :)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 23 Feb 15 at 20:13
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See I think the auto lights in mine are fine. I can't remember an occasion when they've been one when I wouldn't have wanted them to be, and bar the odd misty day they always turn themselves on when I would. It's not too much effort to manually switch them on on the odd occasion it's required. Interestingly there is no 'off' position for them, unless you go deep into the menus and actually turn the auto function off. The twisty headlight switch has positions for sidelights, auto and on, from memory.
The only thing to look out for if manually switching them 'on' is that, because auto main beam is set by putting the lights to 'auto' (my default setting) and main beam on, if you move the headlight switch from auto to on without dipping the main beam switch first you'll dazzle everyone in sight :-(
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DRLs and motorcycles - VxFan
