It's not often I read past the obits in the Manchester Evening News but tonight a full page of public announcements caught my eye.
It was from the city council and notified us poor proles that they were planning to make virtually the whole of central and south Manchester, within the city's borders...into a 20mph zone. There are a lot of such areas now, mostly near schools, but this seems to link them all up. Some not included....our road is not on the list in spite of being a rat-run with speed bumps, totally residential with two side roads meeting it. A cul-de-sac in the garden village where a friend lives will become 20 in spite of being about 100 feet long and having 6 houses. You couldn't get to 20 before you needed to put the brakes on !
A long, virtually straight road with no houses or junctions and very few pedestrians, having only the cemetery on both sides will become 20mph.
They're not going to police this lot...I'm sure. If everyone sticks to the law the whole city will grind to a big hairy stop !
But they won't !
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It's insane to have limits which the majority won't obey - it just builds a group of drivers who treat limits with distain.
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Same with us of course. Gradually more and more people are sticking to 20 even in roads you wouldn't think they would.
That might be due to the very occasional but highly publicised police activity - someone I think got caught doing 28 on the probably one day in 365 the police were trapping and the magistrate said, well that's 40% over the limit, so the penalty was not trivial.
So here you're very unlikely to get caught, but woe betide you if you do.
However, inevitably, we are now being told that all this slow traffic bumbling about is doing dreadful things for air quality, and we have for the past five years missed the targets for that. And one half of the council say tough, and the other half say that street cleaners etc are having their health put in danger and what are they going to do about it.
I just put another cd on and go with it, man. Ship has sailed.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Tue 10 Mar 15 at 06:16
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What happened to "roads of doubt" The scheme used in Holland whereby all priorities for anyone are removed, and its just shared space. No road, no markings. Seemed to work well over there, and was being trialled here, but no heard any more news of it.
HAs anyone any figures to suggest that 20mph speed limits work? before and after type numbers?
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I should have bought shares in road sign makers.
20 limit has just been extended in various places in Surbiton.
No idea re the logic. On one road it has been extended by a few yards and so it crosses a 30 mph road so more paint, many new poles / clutter.
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Edinburgh is going the same way with a mass 20mph ing of the majority of the city. Soon to be seen somewhere near you no doubt.
www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20243/20mph_for_edinburgh
www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20243/20mph_for_edinburgh/1240/map_of_proposed_20mph_streets
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 10 Mar 15 at 08:49
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>> HAs anyone any figures to suggest that 20mph speed limits work? before and after type numbers?
>>
tinyurl.com/nsz8y97
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Are the Greens running Manchester by any chance?
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It's not only the Greens...
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Greens in Manchester? Don't think so - unless mushy peas count.
};---)
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>> Are the Greens running Manchester by any chance?
It would be interesting to see any independent commentary on the political affiliation of Councils and the roll out of 20mph limits. Manchester is solidly Labour. We have plenty of 20 limits on residential streets in Northamptonshire too. Our Council has been Conservative since 2005 but is historically a 'swing' county with periods since 1973 where both major parties have held majority and others of no overall control.
I'd wager that most have been imposed following pressure from local residents. We've one in the High St - the Parish Council were involved and supportive. Ted suggests he's in favour in his own road and that Council might have got it wrong in some areas.
Like a few other things I suspect the nimby principle is in play. We like to be able to 'make progress' but don't want others doing it in our back yard.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 10 Mar 15 at 14:35
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There's no meaningful difference between 20mph and 30mph (please spare me the figures on impact speeds and the probability of injury or damage). I regard 20 limits as 30 limits.
Someone else can organise it, but I will happily put my name to a class action against local authorities for the damage done to suspension bushes by beastly speed humps.
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I am not going to be driving down Nell Lane at 20mph, but I think driving an indicated 25mph might be a compromise. I realistically probably drive down there at 28-29mph at the moment in real speed, so 25mph would be about 22-23mph.
There really is no logic to some of it, and it is going to cause major traffic congestion I fear. The worse thing is it won't make a blind bit of difference as the boy racers will still want to go down there at 40mph.
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>> the boy racers will still want to go down there at 40mph.
I don't know Nell Lane, but 40 is often quite OK in 30 or even 20 limits. But with attitudes like mine it's a good idea to keep a weather eye out for fuzz or civilian busybodies with radar guns, and allow your speed to trail off until it's within shouters of the limit when you see them. So far so good more or less. I've been doing it for 40 or 50 years with only one speed conviction and one speed awareness course (which I didn't need but which kept my licence clean and virginal).
I'm no longer a boy Sheikha and I'm certainly not a racer. Show a bit of respect for your elders or I'll set your leg on fire.
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There's a road near me, they put two chicanes with width restrictions to remove the alleged risk of accidents due to speeding. Prior to the traffic 'calming' measures there had never been a recorded accident, but after making the road 'safer', there were two!
Yes, the boy racers saw it as a challenge, and as you might suspect, one they couldn't beat. I used it for testing once... you could just hold the 30mph speed limit in my much tweaked and racing rubber shod Morgan 4/4. The chicanes have now been made easier and I don't think there have been any crashes since.
A few 20 limits do make sense, but to impose them widely just brings them into disrespect.
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I'd be happy enough with our road being 20..I don't know why it's not included.....I don't think it's because we have a Labour peer living a few houses down...and Mcr is staunchly red.
We do have a dangerous, almost 90 degree bend 150 yds down that used to catch people out..in both directions. Black/white chevron boards seem to have cured this but I still wouldn't park down there ! There was an aluminium lamp-post there which used to get flattened regularly. After a few times, the council replaced it with a concrete one...nice of them !
I suppose all the little cul-de-sacs have to be included en bloc as you would get the ridiculous situation of having to put 30 signs at the point where they meet the 20. It's all gonna cost a lot in signs anyway !
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Mayor of Bristol has been rolling out 20's everywhere - spent a couple of million doing it so far.
A friend who lives in the catchment area was bemused when his cul-de-sac of 20 odd houses was declared a 20 zone and the contractors arrived to install the signs. Traffic in Bristol moves so slowly I doubt it will have any real impact
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Our company is obsessive about speeding to the point of being anal; lorries fitted with telematics or whatever they call that carp, and points (not the nice sort) awarded to drivers who transgress.
Those points are on a percentage scale so it goes without saying that the lower the speed limit the less margin for error you have; for example if you're driving at a shade over 25 in a 20 limit you're into the 21% plus bracket which gets you more points and risks you facing disciplinary action.
Result is that drivers spend too much time watching the speedo rather than the road ahead, especially down a gradient with a full load on,, trying to keep their speed below 20; not conducive to safe driving in the built-up areas which normally house said 20 limits.
So if you are stuck behind a lorry doing a steady 15 mph through one of these limits; now you know why.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Wed 11 Mar 15 at 01:06
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If there are trucks on road that cannot safely comply with limit then I'd say that's a problem that the industry needs to address. It's not as if 20 limits are unique to UK - the 'metric' equivalent of 30kph is commonplace in France and doubtless many other EU countries.
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Had a proper look at the public notice this morning and found that our road is included together with all the other local roads. I'm not too bothered, by the time you've got to 20 from here, you're braking anyway.
The annoying thing is, the council have put us all into a different suburb which I just looked through out of interest.
They can't even get that right...how are they going to find us to put the signs up ?
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Well, they've bin and gorn and dunnit ! Council highways staff have been busy around our manor painting circles with ' 20 ' in them on the road and putting up signs at the begining of side roads with 20 on one side and 30 on the other.
A lot of road painting has been going on, white lines, cycle lanes, etc all being refreshed. They've even re-done the double yellers round a local crossroads for 30 feet in all directions in spite of the signs being removed years ago. The private school, in a large house situated on one corner was the reason for the restriction but closed down years ago.
One anomaly I noticed today...as you turned the corner to the right coming from Ted Towers, you encounter existing 20 mph signs due to the secondary school 2/300 yds further on. As I drove back, I noticed the 30 signs on the back of these were still there. I bet they never shift them. So, you can run out of the original 20 into the new 20 and pass a sign telling you it's 30 !
I don't know how it's all going to be policed...it seems all the main roads, which are B roads still seem to be 30 or 40.
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20 limits are everywhere. Since the difference between 20 and 30 is insignificant I pay no attention to them (unless I can see the fuzz pointing a pistol thing at me of course).
Faffing residents demand it and council villains then pay their contractor friends with our money to screw up the roads with bumps and bollards and smear paint all over everything. It's corrupt, disgusting and utterly stupid. Makes me almost ashamed to live here.
If the residents taught their children to cross the road in a sensible way fewer of them would be killed and injured and the ridiculous obsession with a few mph would die down.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 23 Jun 15 at 02:22
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Absolutely, AC. Slow-moving cars are a menace because they spend far too long in residential areas and shopping streets. If their mimsing carphound drivers would only show some balls and go at 95, they'd be gone before the kiddiwinks and old ladies could even get to the kerb. Safer towns for everyone; what's not to like? Tchah!
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We had a 20mph limit in the Village foisted upon us last year. I replied to the consultation that it was a foolish idea unless a means of enforcement was also implemented and suggested a couple of other things to improve road safety. One was double yellow lines on both sides of the road outside the school. This road joins the main road through the Village and teachers and others park there. Consequently, you have to move over to the other side of the road when you approach the junction. There is a hedge on the opposite side of the road extending to the junction and you cannot see vehicles turning left from the main road. I have had a few near misses when drivers turning left have not slowed down expecting the road to be clear.
Needless to say, the Council spent a fortune on road signs throughout the Village and totally ignored more pressing needs for road safety. Nobody seems to observe the 20mph limit.
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>> If their mimsing carphound drivers would only show some balls and go at 95, they'd be gone before the kiddiwinks and old ladies could even get to the kerb. Safer towns for everyone; what's not to like? Tchah!
You know quite well I wasn't saying anything like that WDB. You are guilty of 'wilful misunderstanding'. If my approach was anything like that I would have been banned years ago.
Tchah! yourself.
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You are guilty of 'wilful misunderstanding'.
Moi?
[Can't emoti-draw a Muttley snigger. Pity.]
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>> There's no meaningful difference between 20mph and 30mph (please spare me the figures on impact
>> speeds and the probability of injury or damage). I regard 20 limits as 30 limits.
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Sorry, got to bite on this.
Point 1: At 20 mph you stop almost instantly compared to 30. Take thinking distance out of the equation and even the old Highway Code figure show a stopping distance of 18 feet. That's probably down to one car length now with wide sticky tyres and advanced ABS.
Point 2: This won't apply to major roads which will remain at 40mph.
Point 3: There are barely any speed cameras on the 20/30 limit roads anyway so I can't see any issue with stepping on it at 5am if that's what you did in a 30 limit anyway.
Point 4: Traffic flow will probably increase overall; less bunching, easier for cars to pull out etc much like managed motorways.
Point 5: Like it or not, we have to share the roads. A decent cyclist can maintain 20 mph for short distances (ie between lights). So bikes no longer holding up traffic, less stupid overtaking, everyone happy.
Now all they have to do is ban minicabs from the Greater Manchester area...
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Tue 23 Jun 15 at 10:33
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There is a a 20mph zone near me and as a pedestrian certainly makes the area a more pleasant place to walk. The narrow pavement feels a safer place to be and whilst not everyone keeps rigidly to the limit it has certainly slowed down the traffic and restored the balance between car drivers and those on foot and on bikes.
A little bit of inconvenience for some has improved the lives of the many.
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>> A little bit of inconvenience for some has improved the lives of the many.
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A sound principle that could be applied to many other aspects of life.
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There are many such areas in towns and cities in the North West and more being added all the time.
The claim by the councils is that the public who live in the areas involved are consulted whether they want them or not but, no matter what objections are raised, it's already a done decision as has been made obvious so often.
The latest in my town has resulted in a key arterial road being included in the 20mph speed limit area, yet the roads that lead off it each contain on average about half-a-dozen properties. As one of the residents has just pointed out, it's a complete waste of money on the "consultation" papers and the additional road markings and signs that will be required for such short roads.
But, it seems, the council's Technical Services department will continue to keep itself in employment by gradually introducing such schemes, along with the now regular decisions to add double yellow lines to as many roads as possible.
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Councils have difficult priorities, obviously it is better to keep bed blockers on the NHS budget so that they can spend more cash on traffic calming, (flow disruption). They have to spend all the extra council tax from the new builds on something.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 23 Jun 15 at 15:14
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>> But, it seems, the council's Technical Services department will continue to keep itself in employment by gradually introducing such schemes, along with the now regular decisions to add double yellow lines to as many roads as possible.
Yeah, tell us about it.
Slight change of subject: saw two fuzz colour cars nose to side just outside the shopping precinct in one of our two small towns earlier today. Doors open, blue serge legs with big black shoes sprawling out of them, white shirt turnout with rolled-up sleeves, radios sizzling and farting... I didn't peer in but I think they'd pulled a drunk or wino (we have them here you know, frightfully urban and modern in West Sussex) and were trying to find out where to take him or her.
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Going quickly very close to pedestrians on the road or a narrow pavement is rude and dangerous. By 'quickly' I mean speeds down to 30 or 20.
A fluid driver will use more of the road to avoid having to slow down: give the pedestrian or cyclist or whatever a very wide berth, crossing white lines without hesitation when you can. It's a principle which has served me well.
Sometimes you have to go close to people. When that happens it behoves you to slow down radically. You soon learn what rural and urban bends you can barrel round with abandon, and which ones demand a cautious approach to be on the safe side. That of course is the default mode on unknown roads.
It's more complicated than rocket science, but within most people's grasp if they concentrate.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 23 Jun 15 at 17:35
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>> if they concentrate.
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And that is the key, as long as it is on driving and not all the other things that people find more important than controlling the vehicle they are supposed to be driving.
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I think they'd pulled a drunk or wino (we have them here you know,
Anyone we know?
;-)
Last edited by: Dog on Tue 23 Jun 15 at 19:43
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>> Anyone we know?
Tsk. Would a drunk or wino have managed to blurt out that account, complete with coppers' legs? Do me a favour Perro.
All I was doing was rejoicing in others' misfortunes, right? It's a difficult métier if you have scruples.
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I thought of someone who lives nearby. More Woking than Crawley.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 23 Jun 15 at 20:15
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20 coming...but not here ! - Tigger
