My clutch has taken some serious abuse today due to heavy traffic and I had to park into a narrow victorian culdesac where people had parked ilegaly on the other side. I had to park there to pick a computer up. Reversing out I had 5 inches either side of me so I had to reverse out very slowly using the clutch. It took me about three minutes to get out. What this cause damage to the clutch?
When something similar happened on my second car (the purple MK4 Fiesta) the clutch burnt out but it was probably very worn when I bought it.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 20 Jul 10 at 14:02
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Low speed manoeuvring at low (near idle speed) engine revs won't harm it. It's the screaming engine at low speed that destroys it.
Otherwise in normal driving the clutch pedal should be fully depressed or your foot should be off the pedal.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 15 Jul 10 at 16:34
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The clutch is there to be abused Sheikha.
The thing to avoid is slipping it for a long time at high rpm, or with a lot of drag on it (as when holding the car stationary with the clutch on a steep slope for more than a few seconds). But manoeuvring out of tight parkers using a fairly sympathetic foot won't do it any serious harm.
You have to remember that clutches are 'consumable', like brake linings in the sense that they wear every time you use them. But two different drivers in the same car on the same roads can wear it out in 10,000 miles or still have it working properly7 after 100,000. Try to be one of the latter.
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Ive never replaced a clutch in 13 years of driving and I wouldnt expect to very often.
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No, Stu - but you have replaced quite a few whole cars in that time.
};---)
Stop-start driving in traffic can take it out of a clutch, but even so you can be kind to it by using just enough right foot to prevent a stall as it engages. That way you minimize the kinetic energy that has to be converted to heat, and thus the amount of friction material you sacrifice each time. Practise it consciously for a while, Rattle, and you'll soon do it without thinking.
Oh and don't - which you won't because you're a recently trained driver, do what my F-in-L does and change laboriously down through the gears on the approach to every junction. Your clutch - and your passengers' necks - will thank you for it.
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Rats - As long as you couldn't smell any strange burning smells, and as long as the clutch didn't judder whilst you were "riding" it, then your low-speed manoeuvring has done absolutely no harm at all. It's a sub-1,000 mile, small, light weight car - driving schools use them and get 100,000 miles plus from their clutches and they get more "abuse" every day than yours had this afternoon. Relax.
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Rats I would say you have knackered it, the clutch will go very soon, best to get back on your bike?? :)
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You cannot be too careful. You should part-ex the car before the clutch finally goes, and buy a new car.
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Better chop it in for an automatic if it's taking that kind of abuse.
But then do you leave it in 'D' or put it in 'N' when the traffic is stopped?
Handbrake on when parked in 'P'? Won't the handbrake cable stretch if you use it?
WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!
Aaaaarggghhhh.
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>> But then do you leave it in 'D' or put it in 'N' when the traffic is stopped?
In 'D' with your foot on the brake pedal to annoy everyone behind you.
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Best buy a car with a low ratio box. I find mine very useful for such activity.
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Yes but ive already had to replace two brake light bulbs in my car this year already.
Do you think this is a fault during manufacture and could i make a claim under soga?
I am a lesbian with 3 children if that would help my case
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>> I am a lesbian with 3 children if that would help my case
>>
Apply for a taxpayer funded motability car, with 3 kids you will get a big one if it works the same way as houses. :)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 16 Jul 10 at 12:44
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I've had many different secondhand cars since passing the four wheels test in 1964 and, in that time, had to replace just one clutch.
However, I thought there was going to be a second occasion the other day when I jumped into the Bora on the driveway, turned the key, moved into reverse gear, yet nothing happened. Tried the other gears - nothing.
Got out, checked that nothing was blocking any of the wheels, had a second attempt at driving it and the car immediately began to go backwards as expected.
Checked the clutch a few times during the journey but all seemed well.
Eventually the reality dawned on me that it had been a truly senior moment -I'd turned the key the first time, but only enough to turn on the initial warning lights and not actually start the engine.......
Must be going deaf now as well as being daft.
Last edited by: Stuartli on Fri 16 Jul 10 at 13:18
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>>your foot on the brake pedal to annoy everyone behind you.
Does that *really* annoy you ? Can't say I care one way or the other, doesn't affect me and life's too short for such things.
(that's life, not No Do$h, he's not too short for anything).
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>> >>your foot on the brake pedal to annoy everyone behind you.
>>
>> Does that *really* annoy you ? Can't say I care one way or the other,
With the new hi-vis LED cluster lights, and in the rain, it is annoying.
Last edited by: Webmaster on Wed 4 Aug 10 at 01:15
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>> Does that *really* annoy you ?
Not at all, but from days gone past on HJ I know it annoys others.
I'm the one of many that leaves his foot on the brake pedal because I've got an autobox that drops itself into neutral after a couple of seconds of the car becoming stationary.
Perhaps we should start another thread asking why people stare into LED brake lights instead of staring elsewhere. No, hang on we've done that one to death already elsewhere.
How about a floormat question instead?
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>> How about a floormat question instead?
>>
Or a thread on the merits of mudflaps. :)
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>> >> How about a floormat question instead?
>> >>
>>
>> Or a thread on the merits of mudflaps. :)
>>
Or another boring thread on "Can you recommend a car for my, wife, brother, sister, aunt for about £2k" etc. etc. Or variations on asking complete strangers, here, as to which new car should I buy?
Typical fodder for car forums.
Last edited by: Webmaster on Wed 4 Aug 10 at 01:15
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"Which is the best" is always a good one too, without qualification, budget etc.
Surely a thread on dud threads has been done before? :-)
JH
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The annoying thing is my Cavalier clutch lasted over 130,000 miles and was less than an hour to replace - great design - no need to remove gearbox. My Zafira B has just had its clutch replaced at 82,000 (after 3 months of gentle slipping, gradually getting worse) at over £600 most of which is labour and the dreaded hydraulic slave cylinder in the bell housing.
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we havent done pink or blue screenwash lately?
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>> we havent done pink or blue screenwash lately?
>>
I use both to give me a rather fetching shade of purple.
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>> I'm the one of many that leaves his foot on the brake pedal because I've got an autobox that drops itself into neutral after a couple of seconds of the car becoming stationary. <<
But if you've just slowed down from great speed the discs will surely start warping where the failure to release the pads prevents them cooling evenly.
Don't you people understand how to make cars last for ever and ever ?
Yeah, life's too short.
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watch you dont wear the pawl out as you put the handbrake on of course
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>> watch you dont wear the pawl out as you put the handbrake on of course
Quite right bb. Drivers should obsessively press the button when applying the handbrake. With a bit of luck the pawl will come to rest point to point with one of the serrations on the ratchet, something guaranteed to cause wear or damage over time.
I have noticed many here are offended by the string of gentle clicks made by a handbrake being properly applied. The abuse outlined above will result, with luck, in a satisfying crashing and graunching noise once the damage becomes well entrenched. After all, those who pride themselves on their 'mechanical sympathy' have an emotional need for an abused mechanism to sympathise with. And this perverse button-pressing under all circumstances is one way to acquire one.
Raspberry.
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>> After all, those who
>> pride themselves on their 'mechanical sympathy' have an emotional need for an abused mechanism to
>> sympathise with. And this perverse button-pressing under all circumstances is one way to acquire one.
>>
>>
>> Raspberry.
>>
Oh you are so good at pressing peoples buttons AC.
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>> you are so good at pressing peoples buttons
It's kind of you to say so ON, but I am often disappointed by the response to posts of that sort. It's as if people didn't want to 'give me the satisfaction' of going red in the face and trying to justify their silly habits. 'Sticks and stones...' they think as they pass on with their noses in the air to a more interesting thread about people slightly exceeding 30mph on lightly-trafficked suburban dual carriageways.
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>> It's kind of you to say so ON,>>
It is bad practise to ratchet a handbrake, it wears out the ratchet. Probably not relevant in todays throw away society but was when I was taught to drive an HGV. These vehicles did huge mileages. I am afraid the training has become habit, and anyone who ratchets a handbrake is an insensitive mechanical vandal.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 16 Jul 10 at 16:06
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>> It is bad practise to ratchet a handbrake, it wears out the ratchet
Garbaggio my dear fellow.
It could be that HGVs even in your day had symmetrical ratchets though. I seem to remember that cars had them too. Perhaps they wore more rapidly if you didn't press the button.
Modern ones are asymmetric and not harmed by being applied correctly.
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>> Modern ones are asymmetric and not harmed by being applied correctly.
>>
Don't care, it makes a noise, that is caused by impact, and that indicates wear to me. (I did machinery health monitoring for years). I consider mechanical noise to indicate a problem. Anyway I am a sensitive soul and don't like noise.
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>> >> it makes a noise, that is caused by impact, and that indicates wear
>> to me. (I did machinery health monitoring for years). I consider mechanical noise to indicate
>> a problem. Anyway I am a sensitive soul and don't like noise.
>>
How do you wind a clock - just turn the key and listen to the ratchet clicking?
Or do you put your hand inside the works and release the ratchet for every half turn, taking care not to let the entire spring unwind?
Ever winched a dinghy onto a trailer, or tightened up a webbing strap?
Ratchets are everywhere.
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>> How do you wind a clock - just turn the key and listen to the
>> ratchet clicking?
Cripes. I've just been overtaken by a clock doing 130 on the M1.
No, that's a false comparison.
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>> >> How do you wind a clock - just turn the key and listen to
>> the
>> >> ratchet clicking?
>> No, that's a false comparison.
>>
In what way?
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>>In what way
A clock is designed to work like that. It runs like that (in reverse) - if I've understood you, so winding a clock doubles the wear on the mechanism; misusing the handbrake increases the wear infinitely.
A ratchet dragging a dinghy would be much happier if it didn't have to be ratcheted - but that is how it works, and a short life is acceptable as without the ratchet it wouldn't have to work.
A handbrake, however, is quite a different matter. It doesn't need to make a noise. A perfectly averagely weak person can put a handbrake on sufficiently tightly without needing to use the ratchet like that.
And handbrakes can wear out (apparently) if treated thus.
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>> A clock is designed to work like that.
And so is a handbrake ratchet.
>> It doesn't need to make a noise
What goddam noise? A brief succession of tiny clicks, described by more than one here as 'the height of automotive bad manners'.
OFFS! Bad manners to whom? The car? Passers-by?
A perfectly averagely weak-minded person can get their jock-strap in a twist about that.
Twozzers.
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>> >> A clock is designed to work like that.
>> And so is a handbrake ratchet.
No it isn't.
>> >> It doesn't need to make a noise
>> What goddam noise? A brief succession of tiny clicks, described by more than
>> one here as 'the height of automotive bad manners'.
That's funny - having reasonable hearing, I can hear these gonks pulling their habd-brake on from some distance away.
>> OFFS! Bad manners to whom? The car? Passers-by?
The mechanically challenged driver himself, the car, the car maker, engineers in general, the general public, passing dogs, etc.
>> A perfectly averagely weak-minded person can get their jock-strap in a twist
>> about that. Twozzers.
Q.E.D.
Last edited by: FotheringtonTomas on Tue 20 Jul 10 at 14:57
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>> Q.E.D.
Eh? I wouldn't call you 'averagely' weak minded FT, nor any of these brake button obsessives. You are all special, a cut above the average where weak-mindedness is concerned.
Tell me FT, when you hear someone applying their handbrake 'some distance away', how does it make you feel? Goose bumps? Red mist? Acute nausea?
For those of this very sensitive type, can I recommend a bit of earwax build-up, or even plugs? That way you won't have to hear the rubbish music you all claim to like.
Extra-loud, highly audible, deeply offensive juicy raspberry.
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Ratcheting a handbrake may, or indeed may not, cause any mechanical damage or wear but as has so often been pointed out it is, and always has been, the height of automotive bad manners.
It would fall into the same category as breaking wind loudly in the cinema which may indeed relieve stress and abdominal pain but a gentleman would never consider doing it any more than he would graunch his handbrake.
( silent, inoffensive mental raspberry )
Last edited by: Humph D'bout on Fri 16 Jul 10 at 16:31
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...Ratcheting a handbrake may, or indeed may not, cause any mechanical damage or wear but as has so often been pointed out it is, and always has been, the height of automotive bad manners...
The handbook of the CC3 advises applying the handbrake by ratcheting.
I suspect it's to make sure the lever comes to rest at a point where it is securely held.
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>> It could be that HGVs even in your day had symmetrical ratchets though. I seem
>> to remember that cars had them too.
>>
>> Modern ones are asymmetric and not harmed by being applied correctly.
What is an "asymmetric ratchet", AC?
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>> What is an "asymmetric ratchet"
One whose teeth are asymmetric, as it were 'lying down' somewhat and all pointing in one direction. The teeth on a symmetrical ratchet all point out radially from the theoretical centre of the circle of which the ratchet is a segment.
How anyone can hear the tiny clicks of the pawl on a properly designed brake ratchet as noise indicative of untoward wear beats me. But I have heard untoward noises from a ratchet someone is trying not to, er, ratchet by pressing the button while applying the brake.
Anyway, my post has served its purpose by bringing one or two of our prominent OCD sufferers out of the woodwork. Heh heh.
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OCD my.....um....foot !
Unless of course on this occasion it is intended as an acronym for "Only Courteous Driving"............
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>> Anyway, my post has served its purpose by bringing one or two of our prominent
>> OCD sufferers out of the woodwork. Heh heh.
>>
I thought OCD was a prerequisite for using this site.
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>>
>> >> What is an "asymmetric ratchet"
>>
>> One whose teeth are asymmetric, as it were 'lying down' somewhat and all pointing in
>> one direction. The teeth on a symmetrical ratchet all point out radially from the theoretical
>> centre of the circle of which the ratchet is a segment.
>>
>>
I don't see why a symetrical ratchet would grip. Isn't it the fact that the teeth are lying down that lets the paul (is that the right way round?) lock the ratchet? If the teeth weren't angled it would just jump out.
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>> If the teeth weren't angled it would just jump out.
No it wouldn't. All ratchets used to be symmetrical and they worked fine. But they probably wore out more quickly and damaged more easily.
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>> >> If the teeth weren't angled it would just jump out.
>>
>> No it wouldn't. All ratchets used to be symmetrical and they worked fine. But they
>> probably wore out more quickly and damaged more easily.
>>
>>
But surely only if there is a strong spring to keep it pressed into the valley of the teeth?
I thought the point of a standard ratchet and paul was that the paul (have I got thet the right way round ?- anyway, the moving bit) was self-locking because the angle of the teeth caused it to lock into position?
I was looking at an old windless in a mill last week, and admiring the way the paul clicked over the teeth by gravity alone, but as soon as the drum started to move backwards, the paul was pressed hard into engagement. It could only be released by winding on a fraction first, then lifting out of engagement.
But you seem to well up on these matters AC, so I'll defer to your knowledge. I just remember that my Meccanno cranes didn't work very well until I aquired the proper ratchet and paul set with sloping teeth. :)
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>> >> All ratchets used to be symmetrical
I will have to look into this, I am not sure it's true.
>> But surely only if there is a strong spring to keep it pressed into the
>> valley of the teeth?
"Into the valley of the teeth"... clanked the...
>> ratchet and paul
>> an old windless in a mill
>> the paul clicked
Have you been at the "speling checker" again?
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>> The annoying thing is my Cavalier clutch lasted over 130,000 miles and was less than
>> an hour to replace - great design - no need to remove gearbox.
There is no excuse for this piece of genius design not being present today. In fact, in today's cars with their elaborate front suspension designs, "refit it anything less than perfectly accurately, and it'll never handle and steer properly again" subframes and mushrooming numbers of "in the way" engine ancillaries, the need for it is greater still. The work involved in dropping a gearbox from most modern cars is the stuff of nightmares.
I'd wager a significant sum of money that even if you did need to remove the gearbox from a Cavalier to replace its clutch, you'd do it in half the time it would take to do the same thing on a new Insignia. But you didn't need to, and that's the point.
Is this really progress?
Last edited by: DP on Fri 16 Jul 10 at 15:46
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Bit of a performance to be mechanically sympathetic applying the old MB foot parking brake, extremely confusing pulling the hand release catch whilst pressing the parking brake with the left foot, and remembering to release the foot and hand at the correct moment for silent engagement of the ratchet....ambidextrous ratchet or otherwise.
Silent but deadly Raspberry.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Fri 16 Jul 10 at 23:02
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>>Is this really progress?>>
Only in the sense that it keeps main dealerships' service centres working to maximum capacity....
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>>Is this really progress?
Interestingly, most people never saw the full beauty of this design.
As well as being really easy to replace the clutch, these gearboxes were also really easy to overhaul. After removing the remote housing from the top of the gearbox, and undoing a ring of M6 and M8 bolts around the end casing, the end casing and the two gearbox shafts could be withdrawn from the end of the gearbox under the passenger side inner wing, and taken to the bench to be worked on.
On the 4 speed gearboxes, it was only then a case of drifting out a few detents, a couple of spring pins and releasing a couple of circlips, and the two gear shafts were completely released. You could have new bearings installed in about an hour without being in too much of a rush - nothing needed re-setting on either the suspension or the gear linkage. Removing the detents was very quick using a special tool on a slide hammer, but, the job could be done without.
I really take my hat off to those in GM who designed that gearbox - they were really thinking.
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Interesting, N_C. I never knew that either.
My toolkit still contains a set of clutch clips, a small slide hammer with the correct threaded adaptor for the input shaft, and a splined socket for the input shaft retaining bolt. Used once, and once only. The clutch clips and adaptor are still in their original blister pack! :-)
Useless information this may be, but I seem to recall the splined socket also fits the timing belt tensioner bolt on certain Ford Pinto engines.
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I recall doing a Cavalier clutch at the roadside for someone years ago.
The Mk 1 Fiesta was good, undo the bellhousing and swing the box out of the way...loads of room.
Cars with a bit of the flywheel exposed were also a good bet...small Renaults come to mind.
Likewise the Jowett. If the engine is out anyway you can use the box as an alignment tool, putting the clutch on the flywheel ' loose ' and then shoving the box through it. Then just tighten the 8 cover bolts. If doing it in the car, the engine needs sliding forward, but not a major jobby like today's stuff.
I still have a SP clutch aligning set, metric, but not now used for years.
We used to do a lot of Ladas and I kept a mainshaft for the purpose.
Glad I don't have to do clutches any more !
Ted
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Why did those Lada's eat clutches? My dad had two of them and got through a total of three clutches. None of the Fords apart from my purple one ever had any problem with clutches.
My dads Fiesta on 87k still has a biting point which feels as good as new on the original 1996 clutch too.
The Ladas would eat clutches every 30,000 miles. I seem to remember they had a habbit of needing new radiators all the time too.
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Poor quality, Rats.
Timing chain guides, heater valves, ignition switches, window regulators......the list goes on.
Russian lead was impure, battery terminals used to grow a black crust. the car would be ok once it was cleaned off....'til next time. Lead contacts in the ignition switch would burn themselves down and go black into the bargain. Sometimes the contacts would fall off and make the starter motor run all the time, burning it out.
Brake cylinders leaked all the time, ruining the shoes.
Lots of constantly failing items, washer pumps, alternators, plastic accelerator linkages...used to carry all these things on the van.
Too many to list.
Ted
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Timing chain guides,
Ted, once again you have called forth a memory, this time not a sentimental one.
By an insane accident, the only engine I have ever rebuilt completely was a Lada 1200. I did it on a concrete floor in a dark garage, got the block rebored, crankshaft polished, correct bearings and pistons, new camshaft and valve gear including the savagely worn ball posts and those absurdly weighty cast iron cam followers, the lot.
Among the filth, jetsam and seaweed in the sump was the skeleton of an earlier chain tensioner that had worn out and just been left there by a former mechanic. Ye gods!
My rebuild worked well but what a crap car it was. The nippers managed to break the gearbox in the drive, couldn't be bothered to work out how.
A crap car, but a car nonetheless with a sort of absurd Russian toughness. The heater was extremely effective.
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The heater was only effective before the blower motors bushes worn to nothing which they often did :). Oh and even as a young kid e.g 13 years old I remmeber constantly being in that fuse box weith my multimeter trying to work out which fuse has blown that morning.
Always had memories of my grandad having to come round to start the car, my grandad knew how to adjust the points or change plugs which was a regular thing.
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I remember the points constantly needed replacing but that was probably normal in the old machanical distributor cars. I also remember the car constantly needed brake fluid but it never failed the MOT for it. And I remember lots of comedy moment when the window would fall into the door at high speed. It is no wonder the Punto SX seemed like a Rolls Royce after seven years of Lada Riva 1200Ls.
I remember my grandads ate his flywheel and my dads would often eat startor motors. I am amazed theys old as many as they did but I suppose the Riva 1200L was about 20% cheaper than the Fiesta 9xxCC Popular was much bigger and was of much better spec. You got rear heaters and reclining seats on the Lada when head rests were an option on the Fiesta.
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>> Why did those Lada's eat clutches?
>> Poor quality, Rats
You could say the same about Subaru, and they're not cars you associate with bad quality. OK, there is more stress on the clutch due to four wheel drive, but Audi, Land Rover, Toyota e.t.c seem to be able to get reasonable life out of them. Why not Subaru? And I would think it's a fairly expensive job to replace one. No doubt someone like Legacylad could tell me.
Last edited by: corax on Sat 17 Jul 10 at 18:44
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The worst offenders are some of the most expensive cars on the road. Take the AWD Lamborghinis for example. It is apparently almost unheard of to get much more than 20,000 miles out of a clutch, and they're often toast at less than half that.
In any other class of car, this would be deemed unfit for purpose.
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>>a small slide hammer with the correct threaded adaptor for the input shaft,
As an aside, it was an odd thread - M7 !
Happily, the clutch cable adjuster thread was also M7, and so, I made up my own tool for my slide hammer from an old clutch cable end.
My record time for chaning a Vauxhall clutch was 15 minutes - including taking the car from the car park, and putting it back afterwards. I wasn't the fastest in the workshop by any means.
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>>Thread pitch 1.0 mm?
No idea L'escargot - but, M7 isn't a preferred thread size in any pitch - it's the same pitch as the clutch cable end though!
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>> >>Thread pitch 1.0 mm?
>>
>> No idea L'escargot - but, M7 isn't a preferred thread size in any pitch -
>> it's the same pitch as the clutch cable end though!
I've been told that M7 x 1.0 is very common on Alfa Romeos. The actual word used was "ubiquitous".
Last edited by: L'escargot on Wed 21 Jul 10 at 13:06
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>>very common on Alfa Romeos
That sounds about right - different, difficult, expensive, and perverse just for the sake of it.
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>> >>Thread pitch 1.0 mm?
>>
>> No idea ........
You do surprise me! If you didn't know originally, at least I would have expected you to have found out!
;-)
Incidentally, when I was working I got fed up with asking designers what thread pitch they meant when they hadn't specified it.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Wed 21 Jul 10 at 13:12
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>> record time for chaning a Vauxhall clutch was 15 minutes - including taking the car from the car park, and putting it back afterwards
A place in Stevenage once changed a MkII Cavalier clutch for me in about 15 minutes, they told me their record was 6 mins on a Nova.
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My clutch is very tolerant, it puts up with little kids jumping on it and pulling it's tail and all sorts, makes a great family pet..... ;-)
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How tolerent is the clutch? - Old Navy
