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The Ted Connolly column in Novembers Car Mechanics magazine relates a story about his brother in-laws Lexus 450h. Taken to a dealer because of increasing fuel consumption he was told that the batteries were not holding their charge causing the engine to to run more frequently and for longer. Replacement cost £5,000! More journalistic padding in the story but you get the drift.
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A new Lexus battery pack might be £5K BUT there are 3rd parties that test individual cells and replace only the faulty ones. I have heard it is still around £3,000 steep but £2,000 less than Lexus.
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£5k is the going rate for a new ICE for that sort of marque. Expensive cars are (generally) expensive to run!
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A bit of the padding mentioned was the £25,000 loss over four years when he traded it in. Another ouch. :-)
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I think induction charging is the only real long term future for electric cars. Once people realise the batteries are so expensive to replace etc. Most hybrids are bought for fiscal reasons but as soon as the tax rules change there will be little benefit.
Give me a good old fashioned simple four pot petrol engine anyday. Nothing too complex to go wrong, no expensive turbos etc.
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Agree with that but a five or six pot would do for me.
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When we had the Office Honda Hybrid ten years ago - the replacement of the battery pack was big question mark over long term viability. Thankfully I retired before it became a problem...one reason I wouldn't want one unless the battery pack was leased or something.
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>> A bit of the padding mentioned was the £25,000 loss over four years when he
>> traded it in. Another ouch. :-)
Well he didn't buy it new, the batteries are under warranty for longer than that.
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The Honda's batteries were guaranteed for 10 years if I remember correctly.
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The 450h was released in 2009. So it's six years old at most.
Unfortunately, for whatever inscrutable reasons you want to imagine, Toyota at the time was offering 8 year 100k warranties - but only on Toyota badged cars. On the Lexus, they offered 5 year 60k warranties, so they were worse. And now someone has fallen foul of that.
But as said up thread, a car of that list price attracts huge costs, if you just go to the main dealer. There are indeed third party companies that will replace however many of the cells needed, probably for way less than that 5k.
If the air suspension on my Lexus 430 had needed attention, the main dealer price was £2500 per corner way back in 2008.
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Both Toyota and Lexus offer Hybrid Health Check (HHC) which extends the battery warranty by 1 year/10,000 miles. Free with a main dealer service or chargeable if one has servicing carried out elsewhere - £39 for Toyota and £59 for Lexus. Hybrid Health Checks can be carried out up to the car's 10th birthday, and can extend the battery warranty to almost eleven years.
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>> A bit of the padding mentioned was the £25,000 loss over four years when he
>> traded it in. Another ouch. :-)
Hes a bit of a dick ed really, you could lease a brand new one for 4 years for £24k
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Yes, but where's the "Woooooo, scary new technology" sensation story in that? Got to keep ON and his Luddite cronies amused somehow.
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I agree that I am a luddite, but as a mobile phone with a decent battery life has yet to be invented I do not hold up much hope for cars.
I was using hybrid submarines 50 years ago, they used proven lead acid technology and diesel engines (without a DPF). :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 2 Nov 15 at 19:49
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Did I call you a Luddite? I only suggested you knew some.
};---)
But a magazine whose readership consists of retired blokes in sheds - and whose income derives from adverts for those sheds and the tools to put in them - isn't going to publish anything that even hints that everything they know about cars is obsolete or heading that way, is it?
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The agony uncle (help) pages certainly indicate that.
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Very little evidence of Li-ion batteries in pure electric cars dying prematurely in great numbers.
Plenty of Teslas and some Leafs well past 100,000 miles with only a few % reduction in battery capacity.
Cost is still the major limiter for batteries.
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Battery powered cars are only a stopgap to appease the treehuggers until fuel cells become viable. Ideally a micro nuclear reactor.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 2 Nov 15 at 20:19
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Guy should have taken advantage of Lexus Hybrid check.
Carried out for free every time you have a service performed, or can be done for just £59 at any time........
From the lexus website
You will benefit from an extra 1 year or 10,000 mile (whichever comes sooner) hybrid battery warranty extension with each Hybrid Health check. This is available up to the 10th anniversary of the vehicle’s registration with no limit on total mileage
Fifty nine quid a year is pretty cheap insurance against a 5K bill
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I can't see fuel cells ever been cheap enough. 10 years ago we were told by 2010 we would have then it still doesn't even look like they will be on commercial sale by 2025.
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>> I can't see fuel cells ever been cheap enough.
The infrastructure will be a problem and you would only be transferring the pollution to the hydrogen producing site, just a electric cars transfer it to the power station.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 2 Nov 15 at 21:59
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>>just a electric cars transfer it to the power station
I still don't get it.
You can make electricity and send it with around 90-95% efficiency to someone's house to charge their car.
Or you can use the electricity to hydrolyse water and get some hydrogen at much lower efficiency, then transport this stuff at -200c/under mahoooosive pressure around the country, storing it in fancy fuel stations, then using the hydrogen to produce electricity to run electric motors.
I don't see the fuel cell as serious mass population tech, either by energy efficiency or overall cost.
The oil companies will need it though, to justify their infrastructures and so they can switch their refineries to chemical plants of making hydrogen other than by hydrolysis.
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>> >>just a electric cars transfer it to the power station
>>
>> I still don't get it.
>>
>> You can make electricity and send it with around 90-95% efficiency to someone's house to
>> charge their car.
And then only able to use for short journeys, whereupon they get stranded because it takes hours to charge
>> Or you can use the electricity to hydrolyse water and get some hydrogen at much
>> lower efficiency, then transport this stuff at -200c/under mahoooosive pressure around the country, storing it
>> in fancy fuel stations, then using the hydrogen to produce electricity to run electric motors.
Where after traveling for 300 miles, they can refuel in 5 minutes.
>> I don't see the fuel cell as serious mass population tech, either by energy efficiency
>> or overall cost.
Like petrol isn't now you mean?
>> The oil companies will need it though, to justify their infrastructures and so they can
>> switch their refineries to chemical plants of making hydrogen other than by hydrolysis.
Indeed
Get it now?
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 2 Nov 15 at 22:41
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"I still don't get it."
Storage is the answer. Hydrolysing water is a way of storing energy. On e of the criticisms often levied against environmental energy production is that it is often produced at times when demand is lowest, for example solar energy during the day.
Hydrogen can be transported by pipeline in the same way as natural gas and the loss of energy in transport is actually lower thatn the in the transmission of electricity.
www.altenergy.org/renewables/hydrogen_and_fuel_cells_transportationdistribution.html
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>>
>> I was using hybrid submarines 50 years ago, they used proven lead acid technology and
>> diesel engines (without a DPF). :-)
>>
>>
But heavy ballast is usually an advantage in a ship, especially I'd have thought one designed to sink.
Applying the same principle to a road vehicle you end up with a milk float.
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>> Applying the same principle to a road vehicle you end up with a milk float.
>>
Which is what an electric car is unless you buy a Tesla, not Ford Focus territory in either case.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 3 Nov 15 at 11:04
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>> Which is what an electric car is unless you buy a Tesla, not Ford Focus
>> territory in either case.
>>
Oi! Lots of Focus hatchback models, about 11-12 seconds 0-60, one or two 14. Zoe is about 13.
0-30, Zoe Considerably Quicker.
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Try driving an electric car (Zoe) from Edinburgh to London on one fill up, refueling in five minutes and driving back on that fill up. My Focus 2.0 TDCI could no problem.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 3 Nov 15 at 11:19
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But that does not make the Zoe useless does it? Out of interest how often do you drive to Edinburhg and back in one day?
The Zoe is designed for local trips and for that it fulfils its purpose admirably.
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I don't quite understand; the point seems to be that because an electric car won't do something you don't want to do anyway, it must not be a very good car?
Along the lines of "a Focus is a POS because it can't drive around the Andes like my Dodge pickup"?
I really fancy an electric car.
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Were you on the run? Or in need of a particular title of gentleman's literature sold only in London? Seems a bizarre trip to make otherwise. Pointing out that something won't work in certain very specific circumstances doesn't discredit the whole idea.
Stay in denial all you like. It may indeed not matter to you, but those of us a generation or more younger will be using electric vehicles for everyday transport one day.
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>> Were you on the run? Or in need of a particular title of gentleman's literature
>> sold only in London? Seems a bizarre trip to make otherwise.
I live near Edinburgh by choice, originate from London, and have many relatives there. As I am now a dinosaur I no longer drive to London in one go but split the journey over two days. Usually done bi annually plus family events. A glorified milk float would not have survived my recent few days in the lake district or any of the other pensioner roaming we enjoy.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 3 Nov 15 at 11:39
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"Stay in denial all you like. It may indeed not matter to you, but those of us a generation or more younger will be using electric vehicles for everyday transport one day."
If ON cares to glimpse around whilst refuelling in London before immediately returning to Edinburgh he will find that a considerable number of people are already using electric vehicles for everyday transport in central London.
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>> If ON cares to glimpse around whilst refuelling in London before immediately returning to Edinburgh
>> he will find that a considerable number of people are already using electric vehicles for
>> everyday transport in central London.
>>
I don't live my life within a few miles of my house although I could, an electric car is not a viable option for my lifestyle.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 3 Nov 15 at 11:50
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>> I don't live my life within a few miles of my house.
Not a very nice area?
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>> Not a very nice area?
>>
Good try, it is a very nice and sought after location, houses sell in an average of five days.
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>> Good try, it is a very nice and sought after location, houses sell in an
>> average of five days.
>>
Strange criterion. Houses like everything surely sell quickly if they are competitively priced.
You could price anything to sell in five days if you wanted, slum or mansion?
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>> Strange criterion. Houses like everything surely sell quickly if they are competitively priced.
>> You could price anything to sell in five days if you wanted, slum or mansion?
>>
It is neither slum or mansion but you seem to have forgotten location.
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Fine and no doubt you have the right car for your needs. What you don't seem to be able to grasp is that your requirements are not every one else's requirements. A modern electric vehicle exactly fulfils many person's needs at present and as technology move on it will in all probability fulfils a lot more people's requirements.
Although I drive a diesel myself I rather think that for private cars at least that technology is ultimately doomed.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 3 Nov 15 at 11:56
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>> Although I drive a diesel myself I rather think that for private cars at least
>> that technology is ultimately doomed.
>>
I agree, I have owned diesels exclusively for 25 years, this one will be my last, my next car will be petrol.
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>> requirements. A modern electric vehicle exactly fulfils many person's needs at present
Problem is, they dont. A modern purely electric vehicle meets very few peoples requirements. If they did, and given the great deal that CC got, we should be drowning in the things. We aint.
They are still simply too impractical as an only car.
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> Problem is, they dont. A modern purely electric vehicle meets very few peoples requirements. If they did, and given the great deal that CC got, we should be drowning in the things. We aint.
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>> They are still simply too impractical as an only car.
>>
I think for people with low miles they could be quite useful. And as a second car for many. I think the slow take up are down to a few factors, people are wary of new technologies and cost. I think one world suit us but are still new so pricey. It'll be interesting to see how they go on second hand market.
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I rather suspect that thre would indeed be a huge uptake of elecric cars if they were comparably priced to ICE vehicles. Price is the real inhibitor at the moment not range. Of course they are unlikely to be the choice if you need a single all purpose vehicle but as a a second vehicle used do the drive to the station or Tescos they are pretty much ideal.
It's a chicken and egg situation of course without sales the price is not going to fall and without a price cut they are not going to sell.
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>> I rather suspect that thre would indeed be a huge uptake of elecric cars if
>> they were comparably priced to ICE vehicles. Price is the real inhibitor at the moment
>> not range.
Judging by the price the OP has got, that suggests its not the case, he has a cheap deal in anyones books.
>>Of course they are unlikely to be the choice if you need a single all purpose vehicle but as a a >>second vehicle used do the drive to the station or Tescos they are pretty much ideal.
Which of course means there will never be a huge uptake of electric cars, you are merely reinforcing the fact that they are of secondary use only. Electric cars will NEVER be taken mainstream until they have the range and recharge time sorted.
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Depends what you mean by a huge uptake. The second/third car market it pretty big.
Most electric cars cost around twice the cost of their petrol equivalent.
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The small electric car featured by Crankcase is unsuited for shopping unless :
1. you buy very little
2. You use the back seats for shopping
3. Your back is strong enough to lift stuff in/out of teh back seats..
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Is it that small in the back? I thought they were clio sized?
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>> The small electric car featured by Crankcase is unsuited for shopping unless :
But that's the case with plenty of small conventional cars - my daughter's Pug 107 is but one example. My own test is whether a folded Brompton fits and can be lifted in without requiring manual handling training.
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I'm quite enjoying the slightly odd and apparently increasingly desperate attempts to rubbish EVs (half range in winter? That's just wrong, simple as that). The good things about that is fewer people will buy them so there will be less queuing for my free electricity if I choose to use it.
I wouldn't bother to reply to such a nonsense statement about boot size, but it's so egregious that I would just say:
We used to have a Toyota Aygo - and that was a seriously small boot. But we got our shopping in most times, or spilled onto the back seat if required.
We now have a Volvo S60 and the boot is perfectly fine with plenty of space for the shopping, never had a problem
The Zoe has the same sized boot as the S60. Ok well actually in truth the S60 is 339 litres and the Zoe 338, but the design is such it's easier to get stuff in it.
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>> 0-30, Zoe Considerably Quicker.
>>
How many times before you have to walk? :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 3 Nov 15 at 11:26
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>> How many times before you have to walk? :-)
There's a possibility - oh well, it will be good for my health if I do. As someone else pointed out, as I have no axe to grind, if/when events like that occur I shan't refrain from putting the bad news as well as good in the other EV thread - I'm doing this for all of you, darlings.
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If Toyota says it needs a full set of batteries it must be because they are all cream crackered. Or get a second opinion.
They can check individual cells and replace as required. My wife's car required a new cell in April after two months. It was never showing fully charged on the display.
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I see a few Mark 1 Toyota Prius (saloons - remember them?) pottering about still. I can't imagine anyone is going to throw £large at the batteries in one of those so they must be OK.
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All electric cars have half the summer range when it's winter.. And if you use the heater,even less..
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>> I see a few Mark 1 Toyota Prius (saloons - remember them?) pottering about still.
>> I can't imagine anyone is going to throw £large at the batteries in one of
>> those so they must be OK.
>>
Yes, saw one on a 'Y' plate the other day; I did wonder how much time it actually spent running on battery.
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>>.. saw one on a 'Y' plate the other day; I did wonder how much time it actually spent running on battery.
>>
I had a look at Autotrader and there are two X reg 80K mileage options for £1.6K or £2K
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I bet those would make a tremendous little local runaround for someone. At £1500 I'm sure they'd be a great buy.
Future classic? First hybrid? Maybe in 10-20 years time.
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Why one needs to replace the battery at all?
Can it not be driven as normal car if battery is removed?
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>> Why one needs to replace the battery at all?
>>
>> Can it not be driven as normal car if battery is removed?
>>
I would guess that the electronic control systems would get very confused if there was no battery, but I suspect these ancient Priuses are running around on petrol, with the battery just a (big) bit of extra weight to drag around.
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>> I suspect these ancient Priuses are running around on petrol, with the
>> battery just a (big) bit of extra weight to drag around.
>>
I would guess otherwise:
www.autoblog.com/2011/03/29/toyota-prius-reliability/
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SQ 4 LB
>> I would guess otherwise:
>> www.autoblog.com/2011/03/29/toyota-prius-reliability/
Crikey, that is is impressive. I eat my hat. :-)
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 4 Nov 15 at 01:34
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>> Why one needs to replace the battery at all?
>>
>> Can it not be driven as normal car if battery is removed?
err.. You would have lots of warning lights and no go..
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 4 Nov 15 at 01:33
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SQ 4 another LB
>> err.. You would have lots of warning lights and no go..
>>
True, that was the first sign something was amiss with our hybrid. Press start, lights are on but no 'Ready' light. Without that the petrol engine will not start.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 4 Nov 15 at 01:33
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If my understanding is correct the 12v conventional battery does little more than start the hybrid computer.
The 'traction' battery does everything else.
I've just completed 10K in mine over the last 6 months - nothing to report except 2 headlight bulbs and an average 53mpg - best tank was 58.
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>>an average 53mpg - best tank was 58.
>>
Nearly as good as my diesel.
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Don't confuse "series" hybrids with "parallel" hybrids-series have no mechanical connection between IC engine and drivetrain.Parallel do.
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Hybrid ouch! - Falkirk Bairn
