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It's a Which? car reliability poll BTW, taken from '26,000 new owners'.
Last edited by: Focus on Thu 22 Jul 10 at 09:01
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>>It's a Which? car reliability poll BTW, taken from '26,000 new owners'.<<
Yes, I noticed that Focus, so its not to be taken with 'a pinch of salt' as it were.
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Most dependable? Possibly.
Most dull? Certainly.
For me there's more to life than a 'dependable' car.
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Where is full league table?
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. Mod please delete
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 22 Jul 10 at 12:49
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>> . Mod please delete
>>
>>mint
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>> . Mod please delete
>>
Foot in mouth, or shot it ?
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What do you expect from a Magazine called What Washingmachine? It is interesting that the in the surveys done by the car magazines the Panda always scores much more highly than the Picanto. The seven year warranty may be great, but then so is seven years in Strangeways.
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>>Where is full league table?<<
In the Which? magazine.
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Most reliable new cars
1 Kia Picanto (98.1% reliability score)
2 Mazda3 (97.6%)
3= Daihatsu Sirion (97.0%)
3= Honda Insight (97.0%)
5 Honda Jazz (96.2%)
6 Toyota iQ (96.1%)
7 Toyota Prius (95.4%)
8= Volkswagen Golf Plus (93.3%)
8= Mercedes-Benz SLK (93.3%)
10 Mazda2 (93.2%)
Least reliable new cars
137= Ford S-Max (77.6%)
137= Volvo S80 (77.6%)
139 Citroën C4 Grand Picasso (77.4%)
140 Ford Focus CC (77.2%)
141 Jaguar S-type* (76.0%)
142 Volkswagen Eos (75.7%)
143 Land Rover Range Rover Sport (75.8%)
144 Renault Mégane CC* (75.7%)
145 Hyundai Santa Fe (75.0%)
146 BMW 3 Series convertible* (73.9%)
147 Land Rover Discovery 3* (67.8%)
Although some models have been in production for many years, the scores above only relate to cars from new up to three years old. *These models are now discontinued.
Which? say the following about the Kia Picanto:
The Kia Picanto is the most dependable car of 2010, clocking up very few faults and earning a reliability score of 98.1%. The Korean supermini’s safety features (a low Euro NCAP crash test score and a lack of stability control) aren’t quite so impressive, however, so Which? Car doesn’t recommend it.
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A man walks into a car dealer and asks if he can buy the used BMW out front at $15,000 ?
"Why spend all the on a used car when I can fix you up with a brand new KIA for less ?" asks the salesman.
"I don't want a pfd KIA" say''s the man.
"Tell you what" say's the salesman, "You take the KIA home for 2 weeks and if you don't like it after that you can bring it back and take the BMW for no extra charge"
"Ok" say's the man and drives away.
2weeks later he brings it back and say's "This car is rubbish ! ... You know the big hill south of town ?"
"Yes" said the salesman.
"It will only get to 75 going up that hill" he say's.
"75 isn't bad for a small compact family car on a hill like that you know" said the salesman.
"It's no pfd good to me mate" said the man ... "I live at 90"
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 23 Jul 10 at 01:28
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Would Dog, Focus, Boxterboy, movilogo, Zero, Bellboy, Rattle, and CGNorwich care to tell us their experience with the new generation of KIA cars.
The Soul, Ceed, and 2010 Sorrento.
Just miles driven will do.
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kia is just another brand but with limited availability of spare parts when needed
try ordering some anti roll bar links and see if they arrive within a week from the dealers
(they didnt)
picanto
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>> with limited availability of spare parts when needed
That is true. My 2007 Ceed's seat height adjuster had a design fault so it was going down of its own every 2-3 days.
Dealer said they'd fit a modified lever under warranty.
It took 14 days against initially promised 4 days!
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ON, my rental car for first week of my holiday in Vancouver earlier this month was a Kia Forte automatic which I think is the North American sedan version of the Ceed. Verdict - adequate urban transportation but desperately dull to drive. Underpowered but that probably the automatic transmission combined with a small engine sapping the power. Drove about 700 miles in it. Swapped it for a Jeep in the second week - lots more fun!
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I drove a Hyundai Pony in 1975 and a Hyundai Stellar in 1983 and that was enuff for me :D
Seriously though, I've got nothing against Kia or Hyundai really, enough people speak well of them, inc. HJ.
Whoever he is (or was)
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>> I drove a Hyundai Pony in 1975 and a Hyundai Stellar in 1983 and that
>> was enuff for me :)
>>
>> Seriously though, I've got nothing against Kia or Hyundai really, enough people speak well of
>> them, inc. HJ.
>> Whoever he is (or was)
>>
I can think of some real horrors that I have owned over the last 40 odd years. Cross ply tyres, heaters and radios as options, a service required every 5,000 miles, power steering and aircon unheard of. The good old days ? No chance.
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>> Would Dog, Focus, Boxterboy, movilogo, Zero, Bellboy, Rattle, and CGNorwich care to tell us their
>> experience with the new generation of KIA cars.
Eh? I don't remember ever saying anything negative about KIA, but correct me if I'm wrong. If I have, or one of my posts comes across that way, I'd be happy to clarify/apologise.
F
EDIT: I suppose I'm only assuming you think I have said something negative about KIAs, and apologies if I've jumped to the wrong conclusion.
Last edited by: Focus on Thu 22 Jul 10 at 15:03
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Sorry Focus, I splashed you with some tar from the brush. :-)
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>> Sorry Focus, I splashed you with some tar from the brush. :-)
No probs. Never driven one, but I'd be happy to give one a go. SWMBO is less logical though and might need more persuading :(
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Drove a 2009 Ce'ed hire car for 200 miles in Scotland.
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Old model, the new one is improved. And the apostrophe goes between the "e"and the "d".
Cee'd.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 22 Jul 10 at 15:14
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You mean it was so bad it had to be improved after 2 years?
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you can stick the apostrophe where you like, its a stupid ludicrous name that needs an apostrophe anyway.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 22 Jul 10 at 15:18
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To be honest, apart from in jest to ON, I dont think I have ever said anything nasty about the c'e'e'd'
I dont like it, its not for me, but its capable enough.
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I found this publicity waffle in a KIA document.
Conceived, created, and available exclusively in Europe, the cee'd represents Kia's commitment to fulfilling the specific needs of
sophisticated European consumers with Kia's distinctive mix of quality, confidence and dynamism. The cee'd name is an acronym:
"CE" denotes "Community of Europe," while "ED" represents "European Design." The word is also a homonym of "seed," symbolizing
Kia's growing engagement with and focus on Europe.
The name is short and innovative, with the unconventional lower case “c” to reinforce the car’s image of breaking the traditional
automotive rules, delighting its drivers and surprising the competition.
What a load of bull excrement !
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that can be shortened a bit.
The cee'd name is an acronym:
"CE" denotes "Community of Europe," while "ED" represents "European Design." and we couldnt think of anything else to call it because all the good names have gone so we made one up and got an advertising agency to flower it up.
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And if the name is a mix of CE and ED, why put the apostrophe where they have?
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English, (or European) isn't their first language ? Or the badge maker screwed up.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 22 Jul 10 at 15:39
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Just as well they didn't call the Hyundai i30 a stee'd :)
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>> Would Dog, Focus, Boxterboy, movilogo, Zero, Bellboy, Rattle, and CGNorwich care to tell us their
>> experience with the new generation of KIA cars.
>>
I haven't driven any of them.
But there are some things in life that you just know are going to be dull, and I have better things to do with my time than trying them, just to prove myself right.
Like eating a Big Mac, beige cardigans, plastic sandals, watching Eastenders.
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Like eating a Big Mac, wearing beige cardigans and plastic sandals, and watching Eastenders.
Brilliiant Boxterboy - That's exactly what driving the Kia Forte was like - very succinctly put :-)
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I haven't driven one first hand, but my mate drove one when he was looking around and found it to be awful. This was the Picanto he said the steering was vague, the engine was slow and brakes were too sharp but with no feel. He said it was like a noddy car. He found the Panda to be completly different.
The Picannto is very much an old school Kia though and is not the same generation as the Ce'ed.
The only other Kia's I have been in are the old Taxis like the Mentor and they were all falling apart inside but again these were the old Kias when it was very much a budget brand. These cars would have sold for nearly half the price as the same size Ford.
I very nearly bought the i10 but I just found the Panda was a much better package for my needs and had much better insurance costs. I also didn't want to be tied into the dealer network for five years.
What worried me aboutt he Picanto is my mate was driving a MK3 Fiesta at the time! The i10- which ias based on the Picanto does it so much better, it has much better engines and apparantly the brakes have been sorted so there is more feel and isn't the on or off feel you get in the Picanto.
I am not sure if Bellboy's point was valid but I know when I was speaking to a mechanic at the time he basically said he found it hard to get hold of Kia or Hyundai parts. Parts will become much less of an issue the more of these cars are sold.
Would also like to point out I have nothing against these brands, I have been half looking at a Rio for a replacement for my dads Fiesta but mainly because they are so cheap on the used market.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Thu 22 Jul 10 at 16:32
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Would you folks say that my current Golf MK6 1.4TSI 'SE' is a worse or better car than the Kia Cee'd or Hyundai i30 or that the latter two are better value for money, only?
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No idea, but I quite like the odd big mac.
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...t I quite like the odd big mac. ...
So do I, and the good thing about the drive thrus is they have vehicle height restrictors which means no damn lorry drivers.
No, I must stop it, this is becoming an obsession.
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It's becoming tiresome and childish.
Pat
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...It's becoming tiresome and childish...
Said the lorry driving pot to the CC3 driving kettle.
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>> Would you folks say that my current Golf MK6 1.4TSI 'SE' is a worse or
>> better car than the Kia Cee'd or Hyundai i30 or that the latter two are
>> better value for money, only?
>>
No better or worse, but better equipped for the money.
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Hey Ifi, you seen what is near the bottom of that list......... :0
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...Hey Ifi, you seen what is near the bottom of that list......... :0....
Well, to demonstrate how easy it is to twist things:
The Focus CC is above the Eos and BMW 3 series convertible.
So I will say, according to a recent survey, the most reliable medium sized convertible is the Ford Focus CC.
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>> Well, to demonstrate how easy it is to twist things:
>>
Is the CC as rigid as a shoe box with no lid ?
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...Is the CC as rigid as a shoe box with no lid ?...
Doesn't suffer too badly from scuttle shake.
Some surfaces can set it off, but generally it handles well with the top down.
According to the reports I read, the CC is about the best of the bunch for scuttle shake.
Saabs are chronic, so I'm told, probably because of their size.
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These sort of surveys are usually biased. I could have the most reliable (or unreliable) car ever made, but I just couldn't be bothered to take part in a survey. The list probably says as much about the mentality of the owners as it does the reliability of their cars.
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L'escargot - the middle sentence in your post is quite true. As for the rest . . .
Reliability is somewhat difficult to define, and even more difficult to measure. There are several different surveys of car reliability, and most offer some useful information. They do vary in quality a lot. The sample size (and methodology) in the Which? survey is pretty impressive, which means that we can be pretty confident that the results tell us a lot more about the reliability of cars than about the mentality of owners.
Quote: "Between December 2009 and March 2010, Which? Car received information from 64,467 Which? members about 66,699 cars up to eight years old, creating a comprehensive whole-life picture. The data is split into two categories: 'new' cars aged up to three years old, and 'older' cars aged between four and eight years old. There were 26,480 'new' cars and 40,219 'old' cars."
Remember, we are talking about Which? members here - not just people off the street. Which? members do have a certain mentality - and they do tend to be people who are interested in accuracy of information. I think that it is extremely unlikely that the mentality of Which? members who drive Kia Picantos is very different from those that drive (for example) Vauxhall Astras.
However - the sample size for individual models, particularly for models such as the Picanto, that it would be highly unwise to say that the Picanto is the most reliable car in Britain, or that it is more reliable than the Mazda3 or the Daihatsu Sirion or the Honda Jazz. We can, however, be pretty confident that the Picanto is considerably more likely to prove reliable than a Land Rover Discovery, or one of the other cars at the bottom of the list.
There is, however, another reason for taking this survey result cautiously. In the Spring 2010 edition of Which? Car, we find that the Kia Picanto, while being very reliable for cars first registered from 2004 to 2006, is merely above average for cars registered from 2007 to 2009 - and in fact trails the Honda Jazz, Ford Fiesta, Hyundai i10, Daihatsu Sirion, and Fiat 500 for reliability. Clearly the survey results that have come in during the last few months have somewhat changed the overall picture.
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Remember, we are talking about Which? members here - not just people off the street.
>>>>>>.
>>>>>>>>>.which makes the information biased and worthless
they are not a good cross section of the general public are they,they are all middle class .
Put it another way, man retires buys a picanto as his retirement present to himself, hes hardly going to sign up to which and give his feedback as they take their payments ofF the credit card he doesnt have are they after the 3 month trial
non starter ..........
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which makes the information biased and worthless ...they are all middle class .
:-)
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...The sample size (and methodology) in the Which? survey is pretty impressive...
I note the convertible versions of the Focus, Golf, BMW 3 series and Renault Megane are all near the bottom.
Yet most people would accept the tin-top versions of these cars are fairly reliable.
This suggests it is complaints about the folding roof which has dragged the convertible versions down.
A leaking/poorly functioning roof is not acceptable, but does it make a car unreliable?
The roof on my CC3 has been fine - so far - but the dealer was honest enough to concede some still leak.
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A leaking/poorly functioning roof is not acceptable, but does it make a car unreliable?
Some people would say that it does, some would say that it doesn't. As I said above, "Reliability is somewhat difficult to define."
Which? says "Survey questions encompassed all aspects of motoring. Reliability is scrutinised by splitting problems into three categories: breakdowns, faults and niggles, with the highest priority given to breakdowns as these are the most inconvenient. Each car's reliability score is based on this information."
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>> Quote: "Between December 2009 and March 2010, Which? Car received information from 64,467 Which? members
>> about 66,699 cars up to eight years old, creating a comprehensive whole-life picture.
There are approximately 2 million new cars sold in the UK each year, that's 16 million over 8 years. The 66,699 cars sampled by Which? therefore represent a sample size of 0.4%. That certainly doesn't create a comprehensive whole-life picture for me. More like statistical irrelevance.
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There are approximately 2 million new cars sold in the UK each year, that's 16 million over 8 years. The 66,699 cars sampled by Which? therefore represent a sample size of 0.4%. That certainly doesn't create a comprehensive whole-life picture for me. More like statistical irrelevance.
I take it that you have never studied statistics.
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tyro,what is your profession please?
:-)
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My 4 month old KIA Ceed is totally unreliable, a tyre went down yesterday.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 23 Jul 10 at 10:21
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Better reject that shambolic motor then Old Navy. You could have a reliable Renault instead.
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I still can't think of the circumstance under which I'd consider buying a Picanto... e.g. a decent used Focus (or Fiesta) is available for a similar price from Ford Direct which (in my experience) provide a good warrantee. Or even perhaps a used I10, I20, I30 or a Ceed ?
Last edited by: idle_chatterer on Fri 23 Jul 10 at 11:23
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>> I still can't think of the circumstance under which I'd consider buying a Picanto>>
Neither can I, even if I never ventured more than a few miles from home I wouldn't have a car smaller than a Focus, (Ceed).
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 23 Jul 10 at 13:59
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<<(Ceed).>>
>>(cee'd)<<
- - - > :-)
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>> <<(Ceed).>>
>>
>> >>(cee'd)<<
>>
>> - - - > :-)
>>
OK cee'd, pedant. :-) But your font is wrong.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 23 Jul 10 at 15:37
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tyro,what is your profession please?
Middle class white collar worker.
:-)
Last edited by: tyro on Fri 23 Jul 10 at 10:34
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>> Middle class white collar worker.
Social classes are now as follows.
Group Description Old equivalent
1 Higher Professional and Managerial A
2 Lower Managerial and Professional B
3 Intermediate occupations C1 and C2
4 Small Employers and non professional self-employed C1 and C2
5 Lower Supervisory and technical C1 and C2
6 Semi Routine Occupations D
7 Routine Occupations D
8 Long term unemployed E
The terms "upper class, middle class, working class" etc are obsolete.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 24 Jul 10 at 06:54
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The terms "upper class, middle class, working class" etc are obsolete.
No they aren't. Bellboy used the phrase "middle class". If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for you.
:-)
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>> I take it that you have never studied statistics.
I have actually. Many years ago as part of my degree in Engineering. Probably one reason why I never take any of these car reliability surveys particularly seriously. They are interesting discussion material, especially as people always love lists, and entertaining as they always bring out the "My car's better than your car" discussions.
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If you have had an experience with any product or service which significantly exceeds your expectations, or similarly significantly falls below them, you are surely more likely to want to communicate this in some way than if you've had an experience which broadly met your expectations.
As a car enthusiast, it's easy to lose sight of this. I will happily come on here and chat about my car, and others cars because it's a subject I enjoy. But I wouldn't do the same about my fridge or my vacuum cleaner. But to a lot of people (I suspect most), a car enjoys no higher status, or evokes no more enthusiasm than any other appliance in the house.
If my fridge freezer breaks down constantly I want to tell someone about it. If it has some fantastic feature such as the capability to freeze an entire chicken in 30 seconds flat, I may do likewise. If however it works like every other fridge I have owned in the past, cold or frozen food comes out when I expect it to, and it generally does what it says on the tin, I am not likely to go out of my way to tell anyone about it. I believe this also applies to cars.
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I have actually. Many years ago as part of my degree in Engineering.
Interesting. I did a fair amount of statistics (many years ago) as part of my degree in biology - a lot more than my fellow biologists did. One thing that struck me at the time was that a sample size that very small - much, much smaller than 20,000 - could actually be relied upon to give a surprisingly accurate picture of a very large population. A sample, randomly selected, of a few hundred, will give an accurate picture of a population of millions. So even if the sample size is only 0.00001% of the population, it can still give very significant results.
The key words there, of course, are "randomly selected". These surveys have problems, as we all acknowledge. One is that people make inaccurate statements. Another is the way the data is treated and analysed. And of course there is the way that sample is chosen.
I think that the main point to be borne in mind with the Which? survey is that there is no reason to believe that the differences between people who buy different models of car are going to be so significantly different with regard to a) the accuracy of their response to the survey and b) whether they actually respond to the survey, as to materially affect the accuracy of the survey.
No car reliability survey should be taken as gospel. But some are methodologically superior to others - ADAC and Which? are (IMHO) superior to JD Power, which in turn is superior to Warranty Direct, which in turn is superior to the AutoExpress survey. To view any of them as gospel truth is simply naive. But to write them off completely as a load of rubbish is almost as naive.
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p.s. I tried to edit that, but was too late.
I'll just add - Yes, I know that a lot of surveys you read about in the press are, statistically speaking, a load of tripe. But it is a mistake to write off all surveys because some are methodologically speaking, rubbish.
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>> No car reliability survey should be taken as gospel. But some are methodologically superior to others.
I agree. I've also done projects with the car industry, particularly in Germany and the US. In Germany the surveys that have them quaking in their boots are the ones from TUEV and ADAC.
In the US, in the past anyway, it was JD Power though mainly because this had such a high profile compared to the thousands of other surveys that they have there. When watching US telly I sometimes have the impression that every product on sale has been declared the winner in some survey other.
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Remember this post? And indeed the whole thread?
"This all gets very tedious.
The Which? survey is based on 80000 randomly sampled CA members. I think the results for VW were based on over 1000 cars - pretty good statistics I think!
The Which? survey is probably the best source of car reliability information were have in the UK and is not just based on breakdowns (minor faults and 'niggles' each account for 25% of the total). The latest results seem to mirror quite closely results from both the ADAC and DEKRA in Germany (which are not based on voluntary reporting - the organisations return figures based on their call-outs and inspections, respectively)."
tinyurl.com/35orwqt
I agreed with Aprilia then, and I have not changed my mind. "The Which? survey may not be perfect, but it is probably the best source of reliability information we have. To call it 'tosh' is simply ignorant. "
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I'm upper lower middle class, have owned over 40 cars, worked in the motor trade, bake me own bread,
sleep on the LH side of the bed etc., etc.
I also used to subscribe to the Which? mag, for some years actually,
I used to use the Which? car buyers guide in conjunction with Parkers + Autocar and Car magazine when looking to buy a used or new car, and I have the greatest respect for The Which? survey.
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i know my place
......................................................................
......................................................................
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I'm working class and Which bored me to tears.
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Haven't got a clue what class I am...
And don't care...
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My wife tells me I have no class......
:-)
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...Haven't got a clue what class I am and I don't care...
That means you must be either lower or upper.
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Just picked up on Dog's observation re the Qashqai. Interesting to note that it didn't fare wonderfully well on the survey. Well, these things may or may not reflect reality but I thought I'd lob in my tuppence worth.
Some of you will know that I have a habit of praising my old Mondeo for its resilience to its years and miles of hard work. Indeed it does not surprise me in any way as three similar predecessors took much the same abuse without problems.
However, the Qashqai I have had for less than a year but which has already exceeded 40k miles is not standing up to the punishment quite so well. It is by and large a very reliable car but a number of irritating small things have let it down.
Trivial stuff in isolation but not what I have become accustomed to. For example, the passenger door window no longer opens. The parcel shelf no longer clips on one side. The internal rear door trim loosens and falls off periodically. The interior has developed a few squeaks and rattles. ( the Ford is silent in that respect at nearly five times the mileage ) The Bluetooth connection to my phone randomly drops out for a few hours. The front headlamp washer sprung a leak mid-winter losing all my screenwash when I most needed it on long salt infested journeys. The car is an automatic but occasionally stalls when reversing. The handbrake is not and never has been very strong. Thankfully being an auto there is a "park" setting. The plastic trim around the door lock falls off sometimes when you open the door, its quite easy to clip it back on but, well...
So, of course most of these things are easily sorted and cause only minor inconvenience but as you can probably gather from my mileage, my car is first and foremost a tool for my work and dodgy tools are not recommended for daily income generating activities.
It is a great piece of kit in bad weather being a 4x4. It's fab in London being an auto and quite compact. It is reasonably comfortable ( but not as comfortable as my old Mondy ) The xenon lights are good. I hate the auto lights and auto wipers though. They never quite do what I would.
In summary, I don't think it'll take the miles like my old car but it's OK and of course it has the serious advantage of being someone else's cost as a company car unlike the Fords which were mine.
Another trivial thing occurs to me. My employers insist that it does not get fettled by anyone other than a Nissan dealer. They are a bit dopey frankly. For example when I told them about the dodgy headlamp washer they said they couldn't find anything wrong with it until I demonstrated pouring water into the washer bottle and asking them to comment as its entire contents flowed gracefully out of the headlamp washer on to their forecourt. Conversely, my Fords have never seen a main dealer despite having been bought during their warranty period. I chose to take them to a locally respected indy and have never felt like I've had anything but good service at a fair price. He'll even loan me an old Astra ( very old actually ) if I need it.
My wife likes the QQ though and wants one.
Hey Ho.
Last edited by: Humph D'bout on Fri 23 Jul 10 at 23:23
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>>Just picked up on Dog's observation re the Qashqai<<
It must be due to The Frence Connection Humph!
My 05 1.8 Almera auto. hasn't missed a beat since we've had it, the trim is all ok, no squeaks or rattles (or smoke!)
Its always gone to the pain dealer for servicing but I know I could get it done more proficiently (and a tad cheaper) by an indie I know,
The occasional stalling you experience would be big issue with me though because my wife drives the car and she hasn't got a fully functioning brain I'm afraid,
I've been thinking along the lines of what to replace the Almera with, which btw I have been 100% happy with, most modern cars bore the t*ts orf me if I'm honest but ...
I've been thinking that the Hyundai i30 4 speed auto would be (almost) a direct replacement for the Nissan.
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>>I've been thinking that the Hyundai i30 4 speed auto would be (almost) a direct replacement for the Nissan<<
S'funny that - so have I.
europeanmotornews.com/2010/04/14/the-public-has-voted-%e2%80%93-hyundai%e2%80%99s-i30-is-the-most-satisfying-car-in-britain/
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"Just picked up on Dog's observation re the Qashqai. Interesting to note that it didn't fare wonderfully well on the survey."
(DT: The most reliable new supermini was the Kia Pacinto, with the Seat Ibiza coming bottom. the Mazda 3 was most reliable medium sized car, with the Nissan Qashqai coming bottom of the table.)
Humph (& Dog)
You may be interested to know that in the Which? Reliability Survey that came out two years ago, the Qashqai was the second most reliable medium size car (out of a total of 21.)
Why has it fallen in the past couple of years? I don't know, but I have a suspicion. The 2008 survey was sent out in January 2008. Since the Qashqai went on sale in Britain in Feb 2008, every Qashqai included in the survey for that year was under a year old. All the info that I have seen says that two year old cars (the survey was for cars up to two years old) almost always have more faults than one year old cars. Naturally enough, cars that were introduced in 2007 tended to do rather well in the 2008 survey.
Here's another interesting thing. In the 2008 Which? survey, the Kia Picanto was above average among superminis in terms of reliability at 92% - joint 10th out of 31 models - but didn't show up as spectacularly reliable. The trusty old Ford Ka actually came out above it at 93%. (Feel free to delete the 't'.)
I'm not one to rubbish these surveys, of course [ ;-) ] - but it's best not to read one survey in isolation.
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>> ...Haven't got a clue what class I am and I don't care...
>>
>> That means you must be either lower or upper.
No, it just means I'm intellegent enough to realise that it doesn't matter! ;-)
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No, it just means I'm intellegent enough to realise that it doesn't matter!
That makes you an intellectual then :-)
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It all depends on who takes part in the survey. If all the (possibly few) owners who have had a reliable example of a particular model take part, and all those (possibly the majority) whose car has been unreliable don't take part then the survey will say that that model is reliable. Or vice versa.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 24 Jul 10 at 10:08
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...replace the Almera...
Motorpoint has something called a Tiida which is listed under Nissan Almera.
Think it might have been/is being sold in the rest of Europe.
tinyurl.com/22urqo3
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I saw a Tilda on the motorway the other day funnily enough. Don't think I'd conciously noticed one before. Not my kind of thing really but probably an honest enough car I expect.
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Tilda is marketed in the US/Canada as the Versa. Quite popular as a basic city car in Vancouver. Comes in sedan and hatchback versions .
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>>Motorpoint has something called a Tiida which is listed under Nissan Almera<<
Yes - I am aware of the Tilda ifih, the Motorpoint ones are most likely shipped over from Eire at that price,
I be a'reckoning that the Tilda is 'more French' than the Almera,
its based on the Clio/Dacia floorpan and shares their engines, petrol & diesel.
Perhaps I'll keep the Almera for now, or buy a bright yellow Seat Leon :)
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...I be a'reckoning that the Tilda is 'more French' than the Almera...
Agreed, I thought it looked more like a Pewjot or one of them Renalts than a Datsun.
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can you have a waltz in a tilda i wonder?
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For what it's worth it's a Tiida.
www.nissan-tiida.com/
Looks like a Megane at the front and a Peugeot 307/8 at the back.
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"It all depends on who takes part in the survey. If all the (possibly few) owners who have had a reliable example of a particular model take part, and all those (possibly the majority) whose car has been unreliable don't take part then the survey will say that that model is reliable. Or vice versa."
This is true. However, the probability of that happening is somewhat lower than the probability of me winning the national lottery.
And I don't do the lottery.
Equally, it was entirely possible that an opinion poll just before the election would have shown 100% support for Labour, with all other parties being wiped out. But no opinion poll showed that. They all showed roughly the same thing. And they were all roughly, if not precisely, correct. In fact, the exit poll turned out to be startlingly correct. The Consumers' Association isn't run by idiots, and they use people who know about statistics when they design and analyse their surveys.
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Virtually every car reliability survey I've seen over the past few years has Skoda in the top three and that includes those listing the customer care and attention standards provided by Skoda dealerships.
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Of course it may well be a good indicator of the truth, probably isn't too far wide of the mark in reality. However.......a cynic, perhaps a misguided, bitter, twisted, immature, ill-informed cynic could argue.......... that those who buy Skodas and Kias and the like just could or possibly would be keen to justify their actions given the, albeit residual and undoubtedly misplaced scorn which attends to their choice and may score them just a tad more highly than they actually deserve.........
Of course that would never happen....Preposterous notion.
:-)
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>> Of course that would never happen....Preposterous notion.
>> :-)
>>
What ever do you mean ? My cee'd could not be better if it was hand built by craftsmen to aircraft standards. :-)
If you want to hear about the problems, (although they are few), read the owners forums.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 24 Jul 10 at 16:55
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Had a look on actual Which? magazine today.
Just look at the sample size for Picanto and the Jazz. The sample population for Jazz is more than 10 times that of Picanto! Yet, the rating is just 2% different. With such unequal sampling population, result could be quite misleading.
Car SampleSize Rating
Kia Picanto 60 98.x%
Honda Jazz 693 96.x%
Had just one or two survey respondents responded differently it might had placed the Jazz in overall winner and this thread would not have existed then :)
PS: I'm myself a Kia owner (not Picanto though)
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>> read the owners forums.
There is a lower limit to my interest in things automotive ON. That would, I'm afraid, fall rather a long way below it......
:-)
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>> There is a lower limit to my interest in things automotive ON. That would, I'm
>> afraid, fall rather a long way below it......
>>
I agree to a certain extent, but you tend to get the people with problems.
Along with the boy racers (of all ages) who want to fit spoilers like ironing boards, and fancy software to blow up their engines. Then of course there are the "sun shines out of my xxxxx's exhaust pipe" and "it does 100mpg if I drive at 15 mph" brigade to weed out.
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>>..that those who buy Skodas...keen to justify their actions given the, albeit residual and undoubtedly misplaced scorn which attends to their choice..>>
Try looking at the prices of used Skodas, especially the Octavia, and think again...:-)
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Virtually every car reliability survey I've seen over the past few years has Skoda in the top three ...
Are you sure that you don't mean "car satisfaction survey"? Skoda actually comes out as pretty average in most reliability surveys.
e.g. The just published Which? Reliability league table for manufacturers put Skoda 12th out of 34. Warranty Direct rated Skoda 8th out of 32. And the ADAC results show the Skoda Fabia as being of below average in the supermini class, and the Octavia as being about average in its class.
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ADAC Pannenstatistik 2008 (came out in spring 2009): tinyurl.com/334t3eq
ADAC Pannenstatistik 2009 (came out in spring 2010): tinyurl.com/3xhm7mb
The results bear curiously little resemblance to the Which? results ...
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Das QQ tat ziemlich gut in dieser Übersicht, verbessern als das cee' d tatsächlich.
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blutige Hölle Dog, sprechen Sie bitte die Queens Englisch!
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blutige Hölle Dog, sprechen Sie bitte die Queens Englisch!
Wie erhielt das Vergangenheit den schwörenfilter?
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die swearfilter darf nur in Englisch eingestellt werden, ich frage mich, was Obszönitäten konnten wir damit durchkommen?
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>>بھاڑ میں جانتا ہے......? <<
Nice one! I know its Urdu but that's about it :)
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I always thought that this site had a very cosmopolitan Schwörenfilter.
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"Das QQ tat ziemlich gut in dieser Übersicht, verbessern als das cee' d tatsächlich."
Yup. When looking at reliability surveys, it's always a good idea to get a second opinion. And a third.
Though in the end, I reckon that the reliability of most* modern cars is so much-of-a-muchness that I wouldn't be overly concerned about reliability when buying a car.
*There are, however, a few exceptions which seem to come at the bottom of every league table that I would be wary of.
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>>..that I wouldn't be overly concerned about reliability when buying a car.>>
Perhaps it's the shattering of some people's beliefs about the standards or otherwise of marques such as Kia that gets them so upset?
Remember Skoda used to be in a similar position yet, only a few weeks ago, a pal who worked in the motor trade for many years before retirement, went out and bought a brand new Octavia in preference to his usual Japanese make.
Last edited by: Stuartli on Sat 24 Jul 10 at 23:31
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I think there is very little difference in the mainstream manufacturers when it comes to reliability.
Any new car is likely to give years of faithful service.
Modern cars are way, way, ahead of those that were being sold 20 years ago.
Durability is a tougher call, and I wonder if some of the Japanese/Korean stuff is not still a bit lightweight in terms fixtures and fittings.
Hunph's post about his Qashqai falling to bits without it ever feeling as if it will break down sums the point up well.
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Our Sirion certainly hasnt developed any rattles yet and it may not be a heavy car but actual controls are substantial enough. The Picanto it replaced was noticably more cheaply made though on the inside.
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>>Our Sirion certainly hasnt developed any rattles yet<<
I could live with a 1.3 auto. in black, don't like the Picanto, I'd rather walk :)
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The Picanto is OK, but its from another era compared to Kias newer products. They handle really very well indeed, better than a Sirion, but then the sort of people who buy these cars arent really after that. The boot is also stupidly small and it needs a bigger engine. The Rio is a better bet really, for me id have the diesel.
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A car has to look right, to me, and the Sirion fits that requirement, interesting that a 1.5 is available.
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>>The Rio is a better bet really, for me id have the diesel.<<
Aitchieboy speaks highly of sed 1.5 chain cam jobbie, reminds me of a DERV 1.4 Citroen AX I once owned in a parallel universe.
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...the Rio...
Sat in one once, very plasticky, and it felt very last generation.
Good, cheap, reliable transport for someone who genuinely has no interest in motoring.
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>>...the Rio...<<
Doesn't look unlike a cee'd :(
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ifithelps, I beg to differ.
Some fun can be had in the diesel Rio, Straight line performance is quite quick.
Climbing hills can get interesting leaving other 1.8l and 2.0l cars in the shade.
The Rio understeers too early, however even when understeering it never feels unsafe and the feed back through the steering is actually quite good.
the turbo pull always puts a smile on my face.
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...ifithelps, I beg to differ...
diddy1234,
Fair enough
A lot of the competition drives and handles very nicely, although I'm not sure what the best comparison would be.
The likes of the Focus, Astra and Golf are a bit bigger than the Rio aren't they?
And a Fiesta, Corsa or Polo is probably a bit smaller.
The fact you are leaving other cars in the shade on hills proves you've got your Rio properly run in and performing as it should.
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>> yes i know its 6 years old but still funny
>>
Typical dealers sleight of hand, that's the old model, totally different car.
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yes i know its the old model
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I know you know, thats the point, does joe public ?
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does the public what?
most public need guidance on how to cross the road im sure even they could tell that the link was from 2004,i even posted the fact
2004/2004/2004
can you see it old NaVY?
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...its the old model...
His remarks about a cramped driving position still hold true for the current model.
I wonder by how much this car was updated, as I said earlier, the inside felt 'last generation' to me.
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>> ...its the old model...
>>
>> His remarks about a cramped driving position still hold true for the current model.
>>
>> I wonder by how much this car was updated, as I said earlier, the inside
>> felt 'last generation' to me.
>>
The current one is a new bodyshell, completely different car. Other than that I dont know, not even sat in one.
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'Led Lobbo' - hehe! excellent article from JC (no, not THAT one)
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Kia is voted car of the year - Focusless
