Behave like it's on a different planet to the rest of retail?
The Stick/Twist thread www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=21123 describes my efforts to replace the older of my Berlingos. By 3:30 this afternoon we'd both driven both cars and could have been happy with either. Plan was to ask each dealer for a 'best/final cost to change' figure and make a decision by tomorrow. Skoda dealer did just that - ctt £4690 based on £600 CAP value for my car. Can sweeten the deal with a spare wheel to replace the goo can and some mats.
My request for confirmation of interval to replace cambelt/waterpump was met with a quote of mileage/time and a 'menu' price.
Try same in Citroen dealer - having already been mildly disappointed by a mis-description of the potentially troublesome 16v engine as the less problematic 8v. The cambelt interval is a 140k miles/10yrs. Instead of just giving me the cost to replace salesman gets a guy from service reception over and we go through a pantomime about why I might possibly want this information. Apparently if the belt goes prematurely I'll be in a strong position for 'goodwill' from Citroen!!!! Eventually got a grudging quote of "about £500".
On cost to change they refused point blank to give me a 'best/final' figure. All the salesman would quote was screen price, less £600 for my 'lingo and a suggestion he might have another £100 to play with. But then he wants me to (a) somehow confirm I really want the car and (b) tell him my budget or bottom line figure - in other words we have haggle. Suspect, at cost of giving up another hour on another day I might have got ctt below £5k but no way were they giving me a better price now.
I'm not asking him to price match 'cos I'm buying either an apple OR a pear.
They failed to sell me a Berlingo two years ago for similar reasons although on that occasion I was asking them to price match though I'd have cut them some slack for having the right colour and bing more local than Perrys in MK.
Why mess a customer about like that? Maybe some customers enjoy the haggle. I don't, it wastes my time. I just want to cut to the chase...
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>> Why mess a customer about like that? Maybe some customers enjoy the haggle. I don't,
>> it wastes my time. I just want to cut to the chase...
>>
It's unprofessional.
The reason they do it, is because they want you to conform to their system, they've got a game plan and want you to comply.
Instead of rigidly sticking to it when a certain percentage of customers don't play ball, they should adapt and play each one as it's needed.
Presumably though, enough people do conform, otherwise they'd sink.
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They want a 'conversation' in which you can be offered a loan, gap insurance, extended warranty and all that carp. They are also hoping you will say "I'm probably going to buy it anyway..." which makes it harder for some people to backtrack especially when they then offer you a trivial amount off.
But basically he's just a carp salesman.
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>> But basically he's just a carp salesman.
I don't blame the 'sales executive' one bit. His appearance and some things he said on the test drive lead me to believe he was under 20. If I'd got his confidence and ability to engage in conversation etc now, never mind at 20, I might have had a more remunerative career.
The issue was with his manager and/or the firm's sales paradigm.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 26 Nov 15 at 21:09
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>> The issue was with his manager and/or the firm's sales paradigm.
Sorry, a good salesman will smooth over the sales paradigm (Jesus when did american corporate speak hit the CS?) in the face of the customer. There is no 20 year old on earth who will be a good closer.
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>> There is no 20 year
>> old on earth who will be a good closer.
And how will he ever learn if everything has to go through the manager?
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you clearly don't know "the manager" sales gambit.
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Quite. If you have to talk to the manager then why am I wasting my time talking to you
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>> Quite. If you have to talk to the manager then why am I wasting my
>> time talking to you
Up to a point yes.
OTOH I'm quite capable of giving a CAB client various assisted information - leads to source of help. I can also refer them to other outfits and give subject specific 'discrete advice'.
I still need to get supervisor sign off lest I've missed something about their circumstances or solutions.
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>> you clearly don't know "the manager" sales gambit.
Well not as sales maybe but call it departmental policy or 'that would be a judicial decision' and I'm on the same page.
Either way it's about management control v empowering the staff.
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>> Either way it's about management control v empowering the staff.
It might be, or it might be a proprietary system. Look up Pendle system / Pendle Consultants.
It's evolved a bit since the 80s but basically there is a 'customer journey' in the jargon. In the 80s a 'Pendle' showroom wouldn't have any prices on the cars; nor would they give you a price list. All the junior salesman wanted to know was which car you wanted, how much you wanted for your part exchange, and what monthly payment you had budgeted.
The idea was to present you with a 'deal' that matched your criteria, and not necessarily a good one! The variable they played with was the number of payments.
The other trick was to get the keys to the part exchange so it could be taken into the workshop to be evaluated 'so as to make sure we give you the best allowance'. The car would be disappeared round the back while you were being plied with coffee, making it very difficult to leave!
The 'deal' would be worked out by the senior sales guy and communicated back by the junior. This opened up all sort of theatrical possibilities - your sympathy being with the junior guy who was doing his best for you and getting audible barrackings from the senior one within earshot, for being too generous.
Prices could be made up. Often the standard cars on show would have tacky add-ons like wheel arch trims, pop-up sunroofs etc which appeared on the invoice as an extras package adding £1000 or more.
The close of course was to match your numbers, if necessary switching you to a cheaper car along the way.
You could spot a Pendle operation advertising for the junior sales staff - "experience not required". They would turn down experienced salespeople who couldn't be re-programmed.
I don't know what it's morphed into now, it's decades since I had anything to do with motors, but it still goes on in some form even though consumer legislation has made it slightly more difficult legally to rip people off.
Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 26 Nov 15 at 22:36
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>> >> you clearly don't know "the manager" sales gambit.
>>
>> Well not as sales maybe but call it departmental policy or 'that would be a
>> judicial decision' and I'm on the same page.
>>
>> Either way it's about management control v empowering the staff.
Nope - its a sales technique.
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>> Nope - its a sales technique.
One that lost them this sale.
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>> >> Either way it's about management control v empowering the staff.
>>
>> Nope - its a sales technique.
>>
Bit of both really, but in the big, process driven, dealer groups, the sales manager has to approve everything. How often that back and forth happens depends on how much you keep pushing.
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And yet......
Good few years ago (06) I had an 03 Berlingo which I was buying over a (I think!) a five year deal (with 2 years to go) which seemed at the time I took it out to be a very good deal - low interest etc.
Then, in 06 got a phone call from local Cit dealer, "We have a new interest free deal on Berlingos, and with the right deposit (just about the value of old one) you can have a brand new one (06) with repayments over 2 years at the same as you are paying now." Seemed too good to be true - pay same for 2 years and get new car, but he was right. Still don't really get it!
So into Cit to get new Bling and the salesman introduced us to a couple with couple of young kids who were there looking for a Berlingo but were finding the 03 ones a bit expensive. But ours was ideal at the right price!
Look says salesman, you sell your Berlingo to this couple, you will get £1000 more than we would give you for trade-in and they will pay £1000 less than if they bought same model from our forecourt!
Deal done there and then! I had new Bling and couple had their desired car for £1000 less than they thought!
P
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Last but one time I bought a new car, we had the obligatory 'try to sell finance' bit where the senior salesman said, and appeared to believe "that using your own money is more expensive". Could have been true if they were offering 0% interest, but no, they were charging.
Bonkers really.
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I have yet to meet a car salesman who knows his product or who seems to care. Oh! And don't they just hate it when one has a bit of knowledge. Big like mechanics really.
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You'll get a better deal over the phone than face-to-face.
You also immediately weed out the crap salesmen.
I've generally found the dealer principal will talk turkey straight away (well they don't have a manager to 'talk to')
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Try reading this.It lets you in on all the tricks they are up to....
www.carbuyingguide.org.uk/
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>> You'll get a better deal over the phone than face-to-face.
>>
I just used Car-Wow - dealers send offers for the car you want - and it worked well, although I was glad a couple of local dealers bid, the others were long distances away and buying a car remotely fills me full of horror.
Exisiting car was going to a family member so no p/x issues, although last time I p/x'd a car the dealer used WBAC to value it, so you've always got that if all else fails. On that car I just used the DriveTheDeal price as a reference point and got close enough to it.
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>> I have yet to meet a car salesman who knows his product or who seems
>> to care.
I bought my landcruiser from one. I got exactly what I wanted. The deal included a towbar, and he even threw in (for free) a number plate for the caravan. I hadn't thought to ask for it - that was just him thinking things through.
He told me he used to work for the local subaru dealer, and when he moved to toyota many of his long term customers did too.
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It's funny you detail this experience, having been through it last weekend myself.
Car buying is a little different in Australia, it's harder to get data on book values, target prices etc.The brokers will only give you a quote if you specify the car etc.
So, we traipsed around the Honda, Subaru, VW and Mazda dealers. Since you have to wait for delivery here if you want anything so esoteric as a manual gearbox we were interested in near-new or demo cars.
However, with the end of year (manufacture date is the key factor here) there are good manufacturer backed offers on new cars just now. This means that dealers want more for registered cars with 2000km on them than they do for a brand new vehicle. Add to this that people want maybe 50% of new cost for a 4 year old car you can see how bizarre things are.
So, the Subaru dealer tried to convince me that paying list price was a bargain and I'd be lucky to get a car, the Honda dealer wouldn't give the manufacturer discount on a manual (making it more expensive than an auto), the VW dealer was arrogant and clearly unaware that his dealership was empty, no recognition of their predicament in his pricing either. Then the Mazda dealer, no shortage of customers and a good product. He calculated a price based on manufacturer support and it was less than list including sensible additions like mats and a 5 year warranty. We did negotiate further on price but it was very good natured, no high pressure tactics. Might have been just down to the individual sales person I suppose, obviously I realise that the dealer had margin left in the car but I wonder whether the others had less margin or were just being greedier ?
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Interesting for me to read of others experiences here. For what little it's worth I've been in sales all my life. Literally all my life. My dad had a wholesale business and I used to help him out in the school holidays from a very young age.
I went on to go down a mildly corporate route working for some pretty big companies first as a trainee, then doing it for real, then managing sales people, a marketing director for a PLC, a spell self employed and indeed as an employer, and now as a sales director for another large-ish company.
In that time I've seen and worked closely with numerous sales people. Many of them were, and are really professional while some were not. Ultimately, the ones who grasp the necessity to get to a position of 'win win' are the ones who remain consistently successful. The ones who understand that all parties in a transaction need to feel comfortable with it. There's no point in short term gain if it leads to a customer who feels aggrieved and equally there's no point in allowing yourself to be talked into a no profit situation either.
Many sales people are paid a minimum amount which they top up with commission. Every time they 'give' something to the customer they are reducing their own income by the percentage of commission applicable, so naturally enough they are just as interested in the final price as the customer is. However, the wise ones know it's better to close a deal on a thin return than lose it in the pursuit of a fat one.
In the long run the best deals occur when both parties are happy with the outcome, when the customer gets what they they want at price they feel comfortable with and the seller makes enough of a return to cover their costs and make a margin to continue their business with.
I've tried most approaches over the years and oddly enough total transparency can be detrimental to the relationship with the customer. If you lay your cards on the table, bare your commercial soul and give your best price first they will almost always try to beat you down further, and even if it's the most fabulous deal, will feel aggrieved if you don't give them their luckpenny. You almost always have to keep a little something back to give it away later. Human nature I suppose.
I genuinely wish it were not so.
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I would be hopeless at sales, yet strangely both my ex's excelled in the sales field. No1 could sell any old stock in our shops to almost anybody, always at the right price for them and after ascertaining it would not be wasted. No2 consistently had the best sales figures of her 5 UK colleagues. She used to sell to me....talk about family, holidays, weather, then go away with large orders. The only problem being that translated into ever higher sales targets compared to her colleagues.
I'm so glad I don't work in sales.
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There's a minimum price the seller can live with, and a maximum that the buyer will pay. If there is no overlap, there's no deal. If there is an overlap. a good salesman will help to find that range.
Lots of sales negotiations fail before they find the common ground that existed all along,either because one party or the other has painted himself into a corner and won't back down or because they have simply peed off the other one.
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>> There's a minimum price the seller can live with, and a maximum that the buyer
>> will pay. If there is no overlap, there's no deal. If there is an overlap.
>> a good salesman will help to find that range.
>>
I'd say for consumer sales it's a mistake to assume the buyer has a maxium. The salespersons job is to get the buyer to pay the price that the salesperson wants them to.
I bet many people end up spending more on a car than they intended, particualrly with highly profitable add-ons like GAP and paint protection etc. Hence you'll find car salespeople are useless at selling cars but will evangalise finance and insurance products like there's no tomorrow.
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There's always a maximum. It's just that it might not be the one the buyer planned for, or admitted to. Part of the skill of negotiating is finding out where it is.
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Good post Humph.
One thing that's always confused me, is how does the big outfit deal with prolonged customer loyalty combined with a salesman/woman wanting a good deal now.
In other words, bend a bit now and keep the customer happy, so that they'll keep coming back in the future, esp with servicing etc.
The junior sales staff aren't going to give much of a fig about that... but the owner might?
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>>>> I genuinely wish it were not so.
One place where it isn't so is Car Giant in London. Screen price is the price, no negotiations. I've bought a few cars there, suits me down to the ground as I hate haggling.
I worked in an export sales job for about three years and hated it. I wasn't much good at it either, so I jacked it in and did something else. I disliked the inevitable element of confrontation which comes with the territory.
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I love it, not because of the confrontation or getting one over on somebody, just in finding the agreement where there wasn't any. It should be a positive result for both parties (avoiding the term win-win!).
Often when there seems to be no resolution, it's possible to find or propose from the other side a concession that costs very little or nothing, but has great value to the other party. That's in win-win territory.
That is in my past work environments. I usually hate dealing with car retailers because so many don't have what I would call competent sales staff and/or it isn't easy to get to the real decision maker.
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That also interests me Manatee. We operate through the whole EU and have many sales staff servicing a couple of thousand wholesale customers.
Rightly or wrongly I pride myself that while I can't possibly handle the day to day transactions with most of them, that I have met or visited all of them at some time and do so regularly with the ones most important to us. Every customer has my contact details and if at any time they want my input I will personally give it. So many managers spend most of their time peering at spreadsheets and knowing their customers only as entries on them. I prefer to get to know the people. The good, the bad and the ugly so to speak. If you don't regularly go to the coalface how can you possibly expect to understand how the mine is working.
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Well said Runfer. The reason that you are doubtless very good at your job is that you are so strong on the mantra that 'every business is a people business'. A cliché maybe, but only because it's true.
I'm not a great fan of Investors in People (too much form-filling and box-ticking) but when they interview staff they do start with the vital question 'Do you feel valued?' A salesperson who is him/herself valued will treat customers as valued also.
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>> A salesperson who is him/herself valued will treat customers as valued also.
So true Avant. People who have a normal level of self esteem and receive a normal level of respect from their peers, boss and indeed their customers will normally conduct themselves properly with others whatever their commercial or personal relationship. However, if their boss treats them with disdain and or the customer does there is a distinct possibility of them responding negatively.
If you've ever however, inadvertently lurked near for example, a supermarket customer services desk and eavesdropped on how retail staff are addressed by aggrieved customers it must surely have made your toes curl with embarrassment. Retail staff are routinely abused by the public. Some may say that comes with the territory and maybe in part it does, but some people seem to rather enjoy, in effect bullying a junior member of staff. These people are often on the minimum wage and compelled to work within strict guidelines. I couldn't do that job for one shift without being sacked for pointing out a few home truths about the acceptable manner of communicating with another human being.
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>>If you've ever however, inadvertently lurked near for example, a supermarket customer services desk and eavesdropped on how retail staff are addressed by aggrieved customers it must surely have made your toes curl with embarrassment. Retail staff are routinely abused by the public
been there, wore those T shirts!!
There is a core of shoppers, and I swear this is true, enter a supermarket and know that they will not leave until they have found something to complain about. And they will do this in a way that leaves them feeling satisfied when they walk out.
Sadly in this customer service age, it is so much easier to give a refund to a customer than it is to argue the point, knowing that they will then ask to speak to the next level up who will then be annoyed at you for wasting their time. So much easier to smile through gritted teeth and just hand over the money. Sometimes you can get a perverse form of satisfaction from doing this - knowing the customer is ready for a fight and an argument and just offering them their money back actually annoys them. They wanted that fight, they wanted to feel superior to you, they wanted to teach you a lesson and they can't as you have given them what they were going to fight for up front!
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>> Sometimes you can get a perverse form of satisfaction from doing this
>> - knowing the customer is ready for a fight and an argument and just offering
>> them their money back actually annoys them. They wanted that fight, they wanted to feel
>> superior to you, they wanted to teach you a lesson and they can't as you
>> have given them what they were going to fight for up front!
>>
Imagine being of a complaint handling rank in the Police, where good for nothing's dad/mum wants to make a complaint every time he's nicked.
When all your soul wants to say "FFS, if you'd taught him some rules or manners when he was young, we wouldn't be wasting this part of our lives now".
You don't of course.
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I love the psychology of it too. Some people you cannot just coerce, they dig in and it takes forever to get things moving again. I nearly always offer something when I ask for something, even if it is a fig leaf to preserve the other party's pride. And I always have a list of wants that I can ask for when the other side wants something from me, even if it's something I would have been happy to do anyway - split into must-haves, and nice-to-haves.
When negotiations seem to be locked (I'm talking about things that take days or weeks here, not minutes in a car showroom) it gets even more interesting (as well as frustrating). I try to have a relationship with my opposite number's boss. Avoiding as far as possible undermining the other negotiator, I can find a reason to call his or her boss and when (inevitably) they ask how it's going, ask their advice. Surprising how often that mysteriously unlocks the situation.
I know that the more competent people I deal with are doing the same things, and I take it as a complement.
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One difficulty in sales, especially out here, is corruption.
A few years ago I was negotiating a deal where the "almost agreed" price was around £24m. It came down to the decision making Director asking for a car.
Now, a car was likely to cost me around £50k. 2% of the deal price. I'd have knocked 5% off the price and still thought I was winning, so the financial value of the car was completely immaterial.
Sales is quite a moral challenge at times. Integrity can be expensive.
Edit: and the deal had a 40% Gross Profit, or thereabouts.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 27 Nov 15 at 11:36
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0.2% of the deal price. Though I imagine the point stands, even though you probably wouldn't have jibbed at taking him, his wife and family for a very expensive dinner.
I have only personally experienced this on a smaller scale, but I always imagined it could lead to some sort of blackmail or coercion later. Not counting everyday corruption in central europe - small bribes to get the phone connected this week, instead of in 3 months, for example.
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>>0.2% of the deal price
As you say, sorry.
>> I always imagined it could lead to some sort of blackmail or coercion later
Not here. The philosophy being that if they jerk you around, nobody will ever bribe them again.
And if you dobb them in, you'll never be awarded another contract.
The only offence or danger is to make it obvious or public.
I was once asked for a bribe by the CIO of a very large UK PLC, on a negotiation in the UK. I was stunned at the barefaced and blatant nature. Absolutely stunned. I was stood in a meeting and he said in pretty much these words;
"You find a way to pay me personally £x, we can call it anything you want like services or support, and you've got the deal. If you don't you'll never get a contract with this company".
I've never* paid a cash bribe, that's a step too far for me. But I've sailed pretty close to the wind on favours, services, add-ons, trips and the like.
Note:[well, not for work or professionlly, I have bribed the odd policeman here or there]
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As I'm sure you know, there are some very explicit laws now around bribery in the UK, and one can be locked up for offering or soliciting bribes never mind taking or paying, and fines for companies are unlimited.
Most businesses will have a policy now that employees must sign agreement to. It's made people think about the scale of 'hospitality' a bit more, I think.
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>>It's made people think about the scale of 'hospitality' a bit more, I think.
Which is a shame, because IMO hospitality works and is mostly harmless.
I am more usually on the buying side, and consequently get treated quite a lot. Quite honestly it has never influenced my buying decision directly.
However, I have most certainly done more business with people I have good relationships with. And one builds good relationships with people one socialises with.
Although i can think of two idiots that I would never deal with because of my hospitality experiences with them. Why do people drink at these things?
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>> Most businesses will have a policy now that employees must sign agreement to. It's made
>> people think about the scale of 'hospitality' a bit more, I think.
Indeed Employees are reminded annually about bribery and accepting gifts and hospitality. However when you get to very senior management that all goes out the window where hospitality excess are expected.
one rule etc.
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>> I've never* paid a cash bribe, that's a step too far for me. But I've
>> sailed pretty close to the wind on favours, services, add-ons, trips and the like.
>>
>> Note:[well, not for work or professionlly, I have bribed the odd policeman here or there]
>>
Not moralising, I'm interested why cash is verboten but not the equivalent in goods or services?
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I don't know.
I just couldn't take the step of handing you an envelope of cash, but sending you on a client reference visit to the Bahamas or giving your son a job might not be right, but it doesn't trip my alarm the same way.
Entirely subjective.
But it is difficult.
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For the avoidance of doubt, I have never taken a favour, never mind a bribe.
Although on the occasions I have dealt with a salesman I don't like for some material reason (normally because he's slimy), I have screwed him for every bit of hospitality going before dumping his a***.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 27 Nov 15 at 13:20
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>> Although on the occasions I have dealt with a salesman I don't like for some
>> material reason (normally because he's slimy), I have screwed him for every bit of hospitality
>> going before dumping his a***.
Thereby having to spend extra time with somebody whom you really don't like...
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>> Thereby having to spend extra time with somebody whom you really don't like...
Hardly. The last significant occasion was a Salesman who intentionally tried to undermine before before I was actually contracted.
He paid for me to go to Miami for 3 days and then up to the Waldorf in New York for a further 3 days, paying for all flights, hotels, food and booze.
He did not accompany me.
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>> I don't know.
>>
>> I just couldn't take the step of handing you an envelope of cash, but sending
>> you on a client reference visit to the Bahamas or giving your son a job
>> might not be right, but it doesn't trip my alarm the same way.
>>
>> Entirely subjective.
>>
>> But it is difficult.
Fair enough, thanks for answering.
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>> I just couldn't take the step of handing you an envelope of cash, but sending
>> you on a client reference visit to the Bahamas or giving your son a job
>> might not be right, but it doesn't trip my alarm the same way.
Because in the teeniest eenist way it can slightly be justified or explained away after the event, certainly enough to muddy the accusation of bribery.
A thick brown envelope never ever can be, no way no how. And besides, it really really lacks class to demand cash. You have to despise someone like that.
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I guess that's part of it. One just feels totally 100% wrong whereas the other feels like playing havoc with the rules.
If I was working in a bank would i take money that wasn't mine? Absolutely not. But a couple of pens or a notepad from stationery? I mighy.
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I can remember being at a bored meeting ( yes correct spelling ) when the then FD ruefully mentioned in the passing that our office with 60 staff were getting through averagely nearly 300 pens a week. They all had PCs...
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My old company just did away with the concept of the stationary cupboard. All you got was reams of paper for the printer/copier. Anything else, Pens/pencils/pads etc you supplied yourself.
Oh and Flip charts. Cupboards and Cupboards of Flip chart paper. They did away with white boards because we all used our flip chart pens that we bought ourselves on them. Permanent ones of course.
Besides you can't take a white board away and make up, sorry I mean accurately transcribe, the meeting notes later.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 27 Nov 15 at 16:46
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Ah flip charts! Ok people let's have a bit of blue sky thinking, let's look outside the box and run a few things up the flagpole to see if they flutter. Let's go after the low hanging fruit while not ignoring the windfalls and see if we can't push the envelope into the next dimension.
I almost wanted to shoot people with flip charts. Or at at least pelt them with some of the riper examples of their low hanging ruddy fruit.
;-)
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My old company just did away with the concept of the stationary cupboard.
Yes, I remember. It was much harder to pinch pencils from a moving one.
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As an aside, is...
" averagely nearly "
.. another one of those local colloquialisms you were in about the other day?
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No, it was just something I heard a consultant say once...
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I doubt it, its a bit too precise.
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>> 60 staff were getting through averagely nearly 300 pens a week.
>>
I remember regularly amassing numerous pens at home, which I would round up from time to time and return them to the office. Staedtler sticks, I think.
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300 pens @10p each = £30 a week.
Why does piddling expenditure on stationery always concern señor management so much?
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Because if they're stealing pens, what else are they taking...
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>> Because if they're stealing pens, what else are they taking...
The P mostly.
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>> Because if they're stealing pens, what else are they taking...
>>
I remember a lady calling a radio 'phone-in, complaining that kids at school were nicking her sprog's pencils.
"Annoying that you have to buy replacements" the host said. "Oh no," the lady said "my husband gets them from work."
There was then a lengthy discussion where she just wouldn't have it that her husband was also nicking them!
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>> 300 pens @10p each = £30 a week.
>>
>> Why does piddling expenditure on stationery always concern señor management so much?
Because its measurable, and it can be cut.
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Most nicked office requisite = Sellotape.
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Yeah, they tried to prosecute someone at a place I worked for stealing sellotape.
Couldn't make it stick though.
Yeah, I know, coat...
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It was a nasty shock at home, some months after retirement to find out we had run out of post it notes*, and I was expected to buy them myself.
*conversations between Mrs Z and I completely dried up.
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>>
>> *conversations between Mrs Z and I completely dried up.
I'm not surprised if you are as acerbic at home as you are here!
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>>
>> >>
>> >> *conversations between Mrs Z and I completely dried up.
>>
>> I'm not surprised if you are as acerbic at home as you are here!
Mr F is full of acerbity, and you lap that up.
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Its different when your hero does it. Love can make you blind.
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>> Most nicked office requisite = Sellotape.
How do you pronounce that word?
Seal O Tape?
or
Sell O Tape?
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>> Seal O Tape?
>> or
>> Sell O Tape?
The latter, never heard anyone user the former. Why would you?
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 28 Nov 15 at 17:36
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SQ 4 TLB
>> The latter, never heard anyone user the former. Why would you?
Because, because, What it does is 'seal'.
What it doesn't do is 'sell'.
Onomatopoeic Shirley?
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 28 Nov 15 at 17:36
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SQ
>> Onomatopoeic Shirley?
Its not two words, its not trying to be descriptive of its function, its a brand name. And it does not just seal. Its pronounced SELL o Tape, not "seal o tape", not "stick on the wall o tape" not "stick two pieces of paper together o tape" not even "put round your cut finger because you can't find a plaster o tape"
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 28 Nov 15 at 17:37
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I've always supposed - but never confirmed - that it's because it's made from cellulose, and that 'Cellotape' might have confused people - well, musicians and Italians, perhaps - into calling it 'Chellotape'.
Edit: or sort of what Tigger said.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Sat 28 Nov 15 at 09:50
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>> Seal O Tape?
there is no "a" in it. Sell o tape. Unless Its the USA where Sell o tape is pronounced Scotch Tape.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 28 Nov 15 at 17:38
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>> >> Sell O Tape?
>>
>> there is no "a" in it. Sell o tape. Unless Its the USA where Sell
>> o tape is pronounced Scotch Tape.
Or Australia where it was allegedly known as Durex tape with inevitable merriment when Ozzie girls working in UK offices used the term.
True or has Snopes debunked it?
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>> Or Australia where it was allegedly known as Durex tape
I remember a South African joined our team. Back in the days of 5.25 and 3.5 inch disks, the south africans had copied us in calling the larger ones floppy disks, but they called the smaller ones 'stiffies'.
Our new recruit called across the office asking if one of the men had the stiffy he promised her.
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>> Or Australia where it was allegedly known as Durex tape.......
No allegedly applicable. :-)
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>> >> Most nicked office requisite = Sellotape.
It comes from the material it's made from Cellophane. Should really be Cell-o-tape, but I guess the marketing people adapted it!
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Every evening when I come home from work and get changed, I take the pen out my shirt pocket and put on my bedside table.
Every morning I go into work and steal a pen from someone's desk cos mine is still on my bedside table.
Every so often I take all my pens back into work and leave on my desk. And they quickly disappear as others steal them off me! b***** tea-leafs!!
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Do all of your shirts have little blue/ black marks above the pocket, or have you purchased a pocket protector?
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>> Do all of your shirts have little blue/ black marks above the pocket, or have
>> you purchased a pocket protector?
Or have you ruined shirts by putting the gel ink variety in your pocket with the cap on the top?
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I've exclusively used the same ballpoint pen for more than 30 years. It's not posh one, just a Parker jotter with a black plastic barrel and a steel top. Obviously it's had countless refills but the outer bit is original. Worn the same watch ( a Tag ) for more or less the same amount of time.
Can't say why, just no reason to change either until one of them stops being a valid pen or watch.
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There's no point in me having a posh pen. The longest I've ever owned the same pen is about a week. So a cheap bic for me.
Watches, on the other hand, I do look after. I switch between a few quite often, and I also have a Tag which I wear often. It was my first "nice" watch (i.e. not Esso, not £1.99 and not digital) in the late 80s.
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I think I get it from my dad. He always had a view that with anything you buy get the best you can afford at the time and look after it. His entire stock of clothes fitted in a small single wardrobe but they were always good quality. He at any time would have 6 suits. Always bespoke and he would have a new one made every November for some reason and the one which was now 6 years old would be thrown out when the new one arrived. Same deal with shoes.
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>> Every evening when I come home from work and get changed, I take the pen
>> out my shirt pocket and put on my bedside table.
Where does your clip board go?
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So you work each day with a different pen but the same shoes? My guess is your colleagues aren't so keen to steal those.
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>> Why does piddling expenditure on stationery always concern señor management so much?
To be fair Runfer didn't say this particular FD was concerned.
However, the answer to your question is simple; a manager, of.any level of seniority, will manage the most complex item he understands. He is in charge and he wants to be in charge but he feels threatened and insecure on stuff he's not that clear about. Frequently when the business is too complex, an incompetent manager will resort to focus upon time keeping, petty cash, stationery, and similar matters.
I am.sure that you will have met examples.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 27 Nov 15 at 17:13
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He wasn't that bothered to be fair, it was just a passing remark over the coffee break.
He was a good pal actually. He did this thing with a calculator in meetings where he'd be talking about something else entirely while punching long strings of calculations into the machine without ever looking at it.
Then he'd peer at the readout and announce the result of whatever it was he'd been totting up. I never could get him to admit whether that was showboating or not. I strongly suspected that he knew the answer in advance and was just bashing in random keystrokes but maybe not. Looked good anyway.
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Yep. I knew the answer.. It was more of an observation.
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>> 300 pens @10p each = £30 a week.
>>
>> Why does piddling expenditure on stationery always concern señor management so much?
>>
Because dealing with problems that are actually important to the company is often rather tricky, so they'd rather just annoy the workforce and avoid the important issues, whilst actually convincing themselves they're doing something. From the same school of 'thinking' as clean desk policies and making engineers wear suits, and just about anything described as an 'initiative'
My current client has centralised stationery dispensing at reception, so I get to burn my hourly rate walking there and having a few moments interaction with the stunningly pretty Polish girl on reception. My walk costs them far more than the biro, but it's 'win win' from my point of view.
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Like emailing stuff to staff to make them print it themselves rather than paying somebody in the printing department to print it and then somebody else to take the printed missives around the office. "Saves money, innit." No it doesn't, it just irritates your fee-charging staff and reduces the amount of billable time they can do.
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Ok a question for you.
Let's take the example above, it's as good as any.
60 workers using 300 pens a week at let's just say 10p each
That's 260 pens a year per employee ( assuming they all take the same amount )
Let's also assume that they actually only need two pens a month each leaving 236 pens unreasonably taken by each employee.
That's a theft of £23.60 each, hardly worth bothering about eh?
Now let's look at another employee who doesn't steal pens but who steals £23.60 out of the petty cash tin.
Then let's look at the employee who doesn't steal pens or raid the petty cash but who fiddles his expenses for fuel by putting some £23.60 worth of petrol in his wife's car and putting the receipt through as fuel for his company car.
Or the other employee who takes £23.60 out his boss's wallet while the boss is out of the room.
Are they all reasonable perks or are they all theft?
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>> Are they all reasonable perks or are they all theft?
its all about intent
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>>Are they all reasonable perks or are they all theft?
There's no comparison, Humph. Office pens are accidentally accumulated, unless you are selling them on a market stall. Theft from a boss's wallet is a different kettle of fish altogether.
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As Zero says, all about intent and thought process.
None of them are perks, but unconsciously accumulating pens is hardly deliberate.
The rest would warrant attention and some level of action.
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Aye true, but what about those who consciously accumulate pens on a regular basis? The ones who accumulate them to give to their kids for school use etc.
Trivial stuff I know and I'm really not trying to have an argument on a subject I'm really not that aerated about but it is at least a reflection on human nature where we can happily and willingly separate different kinds of theft from the same place, more or less justifying one as a result of absent mindedness while viewing another as unacceptable.
Bit like degrees of lies I suppose. I confess I've always had trouble with that one too. Either someone is or isn't.
Anyway, I've had enough on this one as I'm sure everyone else has. Happy to leave it there.
To be absolutely clear, I dont care if people nick a few Biros. Really I don't !
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If they go to the stationery cupboard and take a box of pens out to take home, then I would have an issue.
If their child asks for a pen and they always have a few lying around from work, then that's different.
You need really to understand intent, for that you need to know the person and the rest of their behaviour.
Theft is intentionally permanently depriving and all that.
Either way, pens involve a quiet word. Money theft or fiddling requires rather more focus.
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>> Theft is intentionally permanently depriving and all that.
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>> Either way, pens involve a quiet word. Money theft or fiddling requires rather more focus.
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Agreed.
I've never been able to put up with liars or thieves though.
I once had a relative contact me and offer me some hookey goods that had been touted around their local pub... and they then got the hump when I declined stating I didn't want anything to do with stolen goods.
They couldn't quite grasp the 'stolen' versus 'handling' bit of the equation i.e. one has to go with the other.
From the relative's perspective the handling bit was sort of o.k.
Where did they think the damned stuff came from?
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"Not moralising, I'm interested why cash is verboten but not the equivalent in goods or services?"
Fear not - that isn't the case. Bribery is defined in the Bribery Act 2010 as:
"Offering, promising or giving a financial or other advantage with the intention of inducing a person to perform a ‘relevant function or activity’ ‘improperly’ or to reward that person for doing so."
Thus excessive corporate hospitality can be a bribe. The difficulty, one which will keep lawyers in clover for some time to come, is determining what is 'excessive'.
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>> >>>> I genuinely wish it were not so.
>>
>> One place where it isn't so is Car Giant in London. Screen price is the
>> price, no negotiations.
But you know prices there are as keen as they are likely to get. Which is why you arrive at the place in the first place.
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>>Why mess a customer about like that?
Because he's been on a training course.
There are courses to help goods Salesmen become better salesmen. They teach tactics and approaches, methods and perspectives etc. etc. Essentially, to use the cringeworthy vernacular, they put tools into your toolbox.
There are other courses aimed at people who are not salesmen, or are bad salesmen. These courses lay down a route and rules.
First say this, then ask that; if the customer says this, then say that. Never answer this. etc. etc.
This second bunch are found in bad dealerships, bad financial advisors, bad double glazing salesman and most of all in timeshare and similar sales.
I would guess that if you met/knew the Principal at that dealership you would find that he is not a very good salesman, or sales manager perhaps, and thus wants everything done on a roadmap.
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I deal only with the Motor Trade on my own terms if at all possible.
SO buy when they need to sell.
Usually out of season (cars in winter, 4x4s in summer) and end of month (targets to meet) and slow moving stock.
If they are not prepared to strike an amicable deal I just walk away. A desperate buyer is an expensive buyer.
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We had a bit of a clamp down on stationary in our office about 2 years ago. Apparently we were getting through what was considered to be an excessive amount.
The soloution was that the cupboard would remain locked and the key would be retained by the vice presidents PA necessitating you having to go and ask for access.
She was very approachable and would just hand the key over - there was no checking up on you, but the process of having to ask appeared to deter people as she tells me the consumption fell considerably.
The ethics team have also just started a campaign on expenses fraud - one recent example was a senior exec who had claimed for 1500 quid in taxis.........but the company were providing him with a car and driver
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Even intelligent people do some really stupid things. A young guy who worked for a company I was at showed real promise. Good at whatever was asked of him, got promoted twice in quick succession and looked like he was set to fast track to a senior role.
Except, it was back in the days when his company Cavalier could be filled to the brim from empty for around £20 and so it was noticeable therefore when he was regularly submitting petrol receipts for £30.
Turned out he was filling his car up and then getting his wife to park close enough so he could stick a tenners worth in hers too before putting the nozzle back.
Lost his job and any chance of a reference. Never heard of him since in a very close knit industry.
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>> Even intelligent people do some really stupid things
Like the fund manager who dodged £43,000 in train fares. No excuse or reason.
I have slightly more sympathy for people in a difficult situation. Otherwise honest people will do the most bent things under enough stress.
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Whenever I am involved in a car buying transaction, I always do my homework, very quickly let the salesman know there is a deal to be done and make it clear that I know what I am talking about with cars. Not patronising or arrogant, but enough to gain respect to cut out all the bull.
I once bought a car from a salesman and we hit it off straightaway, the next 3 cars I bought were from him, with prices agreed over the phone before I had even been into the showroom.
I find that the lure of an end of month deadline, and a debit card on hand is a very powerful weapon. Will be putting this to the test tomorrow with my dad!
However it doesn't always work - last week was out with a friend who was looking at a Leon. Motorpoint had one for £13799 but there were huge queues. Jumped along to the Seat dealer who was 5 mins away who is always very expensive windscreen prices. Equivalent car was nearly £2k dearer there. Told him about the Motorpoint price and he just shrugged his shoulder and suggested that we just go back there!
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>> However it doesn't always work - last week was out with a friend who was
>> looking at a Leon. Motorpoint had one for £13799 but there were huge queues. Jumped
>> along to the Seat dealer who was 5 mins away who is always very expensive
>> windscreen prices. Equivalent car was nearly £2k dearer there. Told him about the Motorpoint price
>> and he just shrugged his shoulder and suggested that we just go back there!
At least he was honest, some places just can't price match.
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I think the Leon ST estate is a nice looking car, and could be tempted by the Cupra 280 if I didn't have my heart set on replacing the 330Ci with a 328 Touring. I have heard good things about the VW Group 1.4 tfsi 150 petrol engine which has plenty of torque, is economical and sweet revving.
Out of curiosity what model was your friend looking at for £13799?
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A Leon FR 1.4 ACT 150 hatch. Very nice! Jan 2015 plate
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Just seen a couple on the Motorpoint website. Nice blue colour with that 1.4 150 engine, possibly the CoD variety? Now if I could get a Cupra 280 estate for that money the 330Ci would be away tomorrow, despite it just being serviced and given the thumbs up from my mechanic friend.
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Why Does The Motor Trade..... - Westpig
