www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36434184
Be amazed at the number of driving test attempts.
Of course before that the theory test.
" Topping the list was a 30-year-old woman who has sat the theory test 113 times at the Ilford centre."
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Now hang on a minute.... I had a 'distress call' from a potential HGV learner driver the other day who has failed numerous times because he can't read.
There is provision for deaf people, people who can't speak fluent English, yet there is nothing for those who struggle to read much more than a delivery address.
People don't always feel comfortable admitting just what the problem is, even though they know deep down what it is.
Pat
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>> There is provision for deaf people, people who can't speak fluent English, yet there is
>> nothing for those who struggle to read much more than a delivery address.
You may have to admit to a disability but help is available:
www.disabilitydrivinginstructors.com/driving-advice/first-time-drivers/special-needs-and-the-theory-test/
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I'd have thought the poor reader's problem is one to be addressed through adult education rather than by the DSA. After all, he needs to be able to understand 'Merge in turn' or 'Another train if lights continue to flash' because not everything can be conveyed in a pictogram. To be dealt with compassionately, of course, but appropriately too.
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I train three drivers who can't read WdeB, all have held down HGV jobs very successfully for more than 20 years accident and complaint free.
They try harder because they are aware of their 'failings'.
I adjust my training to accommodate their inability to read and none of their colleagues are aware of the fact, that's how it should be.
The DVSA should do as much for non readers as it does for non English speaking drivers.
Pat
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>> The DVSA should do as much for non readers as it does for non English
>> speaking drivers.
In what way do the present arrangements that I linked to above not do that?
Not looking for an argument, I'm genuinely curious.
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The link you posted does do that but you need to be able to read well to find it and it is what a potential car driver would look for.
My contact started here (after failing it 3 times) www.gov.uk/become-lorry-bus-driver/getting-qualified.
Struggling to read it isn't easy to keep following links to find what is available and it requires the courage to admit the problem as well as getting another suitably qualified person to endorse it.
Pat
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>> The link you posted does do that but you need to be able to read
>> well to find it and it is what a potential car driver would look for.
The question I asked was picking up your suggestion that DVSA did less for people with literacy problems than it did for non English speakers. I'm looking for evidence to support that. How easy it is to for non readers or non English speakers to access that help is a different question.
My daughter's partner's sister has serious problems reading due to dyslexia. She got help with spoken questions and a Pearson employee to assist. Not sure how much more they can do.
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I repeat ....>>and it requires the courage to admit the problem as well as getting another suitably qualified person to endorse it.
<<
Do non English speaking people have to do this? No, which means they don't have the embarrassment or need to provide proof.
I think you're looking for the equality angle again Bromp.
I'm not.
I'm looking for the compassionate angel and as HM has said, it's quite a common problem but not one often admitted to.
Pat
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>> Do non English speaking people have to do this? No, which means they don't have
>> the embarrassment or need to provide proof.
>>
>> I think you're looking for the equality angle again Bromp.
Of course I am.
Your post said that UK born/bred folks who struggled with literacy were receiving unequal treatment compared to those who did not have first language English. I asked you to stand that claim up. In spite of above I don't think you've done so.
Non English speakers can have the questions spoken in their own language. The same service is available in English. Neither requires any prior notice or proof. Both are treated equally.
People who have more serious issues can get help including extra time for the test and a centre employee to act as facilitator. Disability legislation sees that as a 'reasonable adjustment'. As such it needs a gate-keeping process to exclude those who would lie to get (eg) the added time. If the extra time is needed by a Polish dyslexic he too will need to prove his condition, Again, both are treated equally.
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I repeat
>>I'm not.
I'm looking for the compassionate angel and as HM has said, it's quite a common problem but not one often admitted to.
<<
Despite the benefit culture which some would say abounds, pride does not like admitting to a disability.
Pat
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Despite the benefit culture which some would say abounds, pride does not like admitting to a disability.
Absolutely, same as many folk will not respond in the affirmative to being disabled, but will grudgingly if pushed, admit to a disability.
The BBC generally gets this right these days, because their HR department will always refer to disabilities in the correct manner. I can't claim to to be the sole voice on this matter several years ago when they did not understand the point, but I was certainly one of the voices that caused this policy.
Being disabled is a state of mind - not the possession of a disability or disabilities.
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>> I train three drivers who can't read WdeB, all have held down HGV jobs very
>> successfully for more than 20 years accident and complaint free.
Why didn't they take the trouble to learn to read in 20 years?
Was it not staring them in the face that they had a serious deficiency?
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>>Was it not staring them in the face that they had a serious deficiency?<<
Have they?
They would argue not.
They have led a fully law abiding, hard working life for the last 40+ years, never been out of work, never claimed benefits, own their own houses, have nice cars and are thoroughly nice people.
Why would I be so rude to ask them that question?
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Fri 3 Jun 16 at 06:10
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>> They have led a fully law abiding, hard working life for the last 40+ years,
>> never been out of work, never claimed benefits, own their own houses, have nice cars
>> and are thoroughly nice people.
>>
>> Why would I be so rude to ask them that question?
Not suggesting you should ask them that question.
Shouldn't they have asked themselves that question?
They couldn't read - and presumably couldn't write either. In all that time did it not occur to them that it would be a good idea to take themselves to adult literacy classes!
I am really amazed.
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>>
>> They couldn't read - and presumably couldn't write either. In all that time did it
>> not occur to them that it would be a good idea to take themselves to
>> adult literacy classes!
>>
>> I am really amazed.
>>
It's by no means as uncommon as you might think. Many of the travelling community, for example, especially the pre-internet generations, are almost completely illiterate anmd it's nothing to do with dyslexia, quite simply that they've never been to school.
My own father-in-law ( only 4 years older than me cos Mrs HM is 20 years younger than I am) had to be taught to read by my m-i-l after they met; he was the "white sheep" of a rather notorious family, and apart from being dyslexic hadn't had much formal schooling. And he's a lorry driver!
Like any other disability, which dyslexia is whether you like it or not, most people learn to get by without drawing too much attention to themselves. Ditto those who didn't attend school.
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Some years ago I was at an evening meeting at Ayr racecourse and went down to the rails to put my £2, as usual, on the one with the good odds that was only ever going to win a race inside a greyhound.
As I left the bookie I was stopped by chap who asked if I had a racecard and could he look at it, so of course I handed it to him. He pointed to one of the horse's names and said "is that [horse's name]?", and various other seemingly odd questions.
"Thanks" says he, peers at the form again and off he went to the bookie. He produced a large wad of notes from his inside pocket and said "£700 to win...". He won.
I turned to my somewhat more worldly pal and asked what that was all about. "He can't read".
It seems almost impossible that people can get by and prosper without being able to read, or that they don't absorb it without trying after a lifetime surrounded by the written word. But they do. And I realised that there are a whole lot more at the margin of illiteracy when I took more notice after that experience.
I wouldn't recommend illiteracy, but there is quite a lot you can do without being able able to read.
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Many years go I use to work in motor insurance.
Now because insurance its compulsory one of those areas you can't avoid if you are illiterate. I was always surprised as to how many people can't read a simple form. They often claimed to have forgotten their glasses and asked you to read the form out to them. Used to have to dictate the form and get them to sign a declaration to that effect. Most could manage their name but occasionally you got an X
I still find it surprising that someone can one can go through ten years plus of education and not be able to read and write at the most basic level
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>>I still find it surprising that someone can one can go through ten years plus of education and not be able to read and write at the most basic level.
>>
That is assuming that they did go to school.
Recently I was waiting at the reception desk at our doctor's surgery and I suggested to the women in front that she might like to use the touch screen to check in
The response from this traveler woman was " I can't read"
I was a little taken aback at the instant honest response.
It is very noticeable that they attend surgeries en mass. I wonder if that is to do with having one who can deal with paperwork ?
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>> Why didn't they take the trouble to learn to read in 20 years?
Bit of an oversimplification in words 'take trouble'. Most of us take to it duck>water style but for those who struggle it's a real mountain. They need specialist help, choice of methods or learning, patience and a non judgemental approach.
Dogma about phonetics and a constant emphasis on pass/fail tests, the recipe under governments of both stripes, is not helping.
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It won't take the topic forward, but reading this reminds me of one of Mary Portas's programmes where she tried to turn round a failing supermarket. The owner hadn't or couldn't train his staff properly, so the whole place was a shambles. In order to show the staff how they should behave towards customers, she arranged for them to wait on diners at an up-market restaurant for an evening. One young man on the staff threw a wobbly when she gave him a notepad to take orders and soon admitted that he couldn't read or write. Mary was instantly empathetic, put her arms around him and then helped him to cope with the rest of the evening. Afterwards she found a adult literacy class and persuaded him to go to it.
The programme was really memorable for me because Mary Portas often comes across as a bit of a bully - not so in this instance. Just thinking about it makes me damp around the eyes, so I hope I'm not romanticising about what actually happened.
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Worst learner drivers test attempt numbers reveale - Pat
