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As the title suggests, a place to discuss Formula One, and all other types of motorsport (excluding MotoGP, which has a section of its own).
PLEASE NOTE:-
To try and maintain some kind of logical order of discussion, if you start a new subject then reply to this post and remember to change the default subject header.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 24 Jan 17 at 10:23
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The fans get good value today?
It seems that both Hamilton and Alonso just need to do just one reasonable lap each to qualify and then put their feet up.
The fans should get an interesting race day.
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I'd be surprised if Hamilton did only one lap - he'll want to practice the lap which will be quite important tomorrow.
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He had plenty of practice yesterday and this morning, might as well save the tyres.
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After they had put in engine 3 for today I'd have thought he'd want to make sure all was okay.
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I don't understand, didn't he get a 35 lap penalty? So if he'd got pole he'd have expired 20 or so of those places, and presumably the rest carry over to the next race. Being at the back of the grid anyway this time, how's he eating into the penalty?
Stupid of Berkshire...
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>> I don't understand, didn't he get a 35 lap penalty?
No, the penalty is loosing places on the grid and any excess penalties beyond the current max (21 other drivers ) are just forgotten. The balance of penalties are not carried forward to the next race.
As Alonso only did 500 yards of his first lap he is deemed even worse than Hamilton who had completed a lap within 107% of the time of the slowest driver. This means that Hamilton is now last but one on the grid. Assuming he starts well that is one less "quick-ish " driver he does not need to overtake in his charge through the field.
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Yeah I meant grid penalty, sorry.
Ah, so the key is that any balance is forgotten.
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>> After they had put in engine 3 for today I'd have thought he'd want to
>> make sure all was okay.
>>
He did that in the one hour of P3. Only Massa did more laps (one more) than Hamilton in P3.
Check out P1, P2 and P3 times and laps here
www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/125864
www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/125870
www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/125882
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I suppose they have setup his car to be good in the race and not for qualifying.
I think they have taken the wee with taking so many penalties at one race when the worst that can happen is to start at the back. Surely they needed to replace one engine not three.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sat 27 Aug 16 at 20:05
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But he (Hamilton) needs the other engines to finish the season. One is supposed to have at least two engines in hand at this point in the season, not be on the last gasp of the last engine.
It's true being able to take more grid penalties than cars of the grid is a bit mad, but thems the rules and you'd have to be a fool not to take advantage.
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>> But he (Hamilton) needs the other engines to finish the season. One is supposed to have at >> least two engines in hand at this point in the season, not be on the last gasp of the last engine.
I realise that. And one engine is 25 grid places as a penalty... so he's used 3 engines in one weekend to get 75 grid places as a penalty. Shouldn't it have been three races he got a penalty for? Could he have had a few gearboxes as well?
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As I said, thems the rules.
You can of course argue the rules should be changed. However, you don't want a driver to be told at the end of race 5 with 16 races still be run, 'for you, the war is over'. Some teams would just go home in that scenario.
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I actually think it's the rules that are wrong. They're there because smaller teams cannot afford to buy so many engines so this punishes the teams with their own engine suppliers.
But with the current rules, I think they are being circumvented. But that's F1 for you.
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Circumvented implies breaking the rules. They're not, the rules are being used in their most advantageous way to the driver/team. I don't think anyone would dispute it leads to some odd situations, but motor-sport has always thrown up oddities. And for some situations, that will cause the rules to be changed - for next season.
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>> I realise that. And one engine is 25 grid places as a penalty... so he's
>> used 3 engines in one weekend to get 75 grid places as a penalty. Shouldn't
>> it have been three races he got a penalty for? Could he have had a
>> few gearboxes as well?
>>
This silliness started last year. Look at what McLaren did LAST year at Spa in 2015:
www.crash.net/f1/news/220689/1/honda-granted-extra-engine-penalties-set-for-overhaul.html
www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2015/8/mclaren-set-to-start-at-rear-of-spa-grid.html
"With untaken grid drops no longer converted into in-race penalties following the recent rule change, it raises the likelihood of McLaren taking the opportunity to use a further, eighth engine on both cars on Saturday. Such a change would incur further penalties, but these would have little or no impact on the team's starting positions for Sunday's race.
More importantly it would make two upgraded engines available to them for each car for the season’s remaining rounds, without the risk of further engine change penalties."
Rules
www.formula1.com/en/championship/inside-f1/rules-regs/Power_Unit_and_ERS.html
Last edited by: BrianByPass on Sat 27 Aug 16 at 23:59
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Good luck to Verstappen today.
Also Rosberg both likeable people let it be a good race.
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Like a lot of folk I tend to get bored after the first lap, unless it's a wet race whereby anything could happen and anyone win. How the heck they manage to see through their visors with that spray I don't know! - respect!
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Another procession ...yawn.
With rules unintelligible to anyone without access to a computer, a list of all teh elements and details of who has done what.
Makes crown bowls look exciting...
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Actually, the daft thing overall is the secret squirrel nature of the race numbers these days. You used to have (and still do in UK clubmans classes) a white roundel with black numbers - all nice and big. OK the timing etc is now computer run, but there are such a thing as spectators...
TV coverage has gone down in quality too. They seem to think their toys will impress but all too often, they don't follow the right cars to get the battles for position.
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Yes, F1 has become a bit boring.
Except that the cars go so incredibly fast. They are so dependent on downforce aerodynamics and huge great slick tyres that when anything at all goes wrong with either they are instantly up a tree or in the fields with the driver a helpless passenger.
I feel very nostalgic for a time when the cars were, er, cars instead of inverted aircraft. They went at half the speed but gave twice the spectacle. They were of course also four times as dangerous to the drivers.
Putting the engine in the back started the rot. Ferrari led the way but Lotus perfected the idea and made it work properly. Now they tread on each other's toes and cover the track with flimsy bits of aerodynamic tat... Shovel-nosed idiots of cars. It's awful.
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Deutcshland Ũber Alles was played quite rightly after the race.
Toto Wolf is a charming cat considering.
Our Anglo-Spade racing hero did incredibly well to get from the very back of the grid to third place, I mean Chapeau, really!
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I fear that I'm not going to like this, but what does "Anglo-spade" mean?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 28 Aug 16 at 20:50
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In Yorkshire it'd be 'Anglo-Shovel'
I'll see thi
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>> I fear that I'm not going to like this, but what does "Anglo-spade" mean?
>>
www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/09/19/224183763/is-it-racist-to-call-a-spade-a-spade
UK take on it
www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/call-a-spade-a-spade.html
Last edited by: BrianByPass on Sun 28 Aug 16 at 21:05
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I don't know any term here that is not derogatory in some circles and no offence is intended, implied or otherwise spoken.
Person of mixed race parents, would historically be called a half-breed or a mulatto. The former usually applies to any race of parents whereas mulatto is generally from black and white parents. Latterly though, it is fashionable for mulattos to refer to themselves as black. And probably the highest profile person who does, is Barak Obama...
I do not know of any circles though where the term 'spade' is in polite usage.
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>> I do not know of any circles though where the term 'spade' is in polite
>> usage.
>>
....well, there's my Bridge Club......................
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Ok, ok... The meaning of the person of colour then.
Goes and hides from hordes of angry gardeners and card players
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Sadly another example of racism I think. Dog would probably call Lewis Hamilton brown.
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I may be wrong, but I think you have all missed the meaning there, which was a passing reference to the off-track persona that Lewis has adopted. AC is usually very deliberate and economical with the words he chooses, being a real writer.
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How kind of you Manatee. I am all blushes!
I feel OK about the term Spade which has been made respectable to me, more or less, by a black Trinidadian long-term friend, now deceased and greatly missed by me.
It's a bit risky to use it in racially mixed company because some people are oversensitive, or like to pose as such. One doesn't always get away with it. Bit of a minefield.
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I am 78 today.
Just saying... :o}
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>> I am 78 today.
>>
>> Just saying... :o}
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Congratulations.
Is that physical age or mental ?
Just asking :-)
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>> I am 78 today.
>>
Happy birthday, AC! It's good to see you're not the old bloke in West Sussex who's in an armed standoff with the fuzz. He's said to be only 72.
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>> I feel OK about the term Spade which has been made respectable to me,
But what does it mean? Black? Is there any implication other than colour?
>> It's a bit risky to use it in racially mixed company because some people are
>> oversensitive, or like to pose as such.
Do you discount the possibility of someone actually being offended? Because some might be - depending on what it actually means, of course.
Doesn't sound very polite to me, but I'm not clear on what it means, or what is meant by it. It did seem an unnecessary comment, so I wondered about it.
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>> But what does it mean? Black?
'Black as the ace of spades' lay behind the term I think.
As I said above, Ofays can't always get away with it; and while some black people are cool with the term and use it themselves, others can be jumpy or severe if they imagine it is being used disrespectfully. So, 'bit of a minefield'.
If in the slightest doubt, don't use it. Indeed the safest and politest thing is to avoid it altogether.
In the Notting Hill of my youth the black people were tolerant if they knew you, but there were real nasty racists in those days and it was quite easy to put a foot wrong with people you didn't know.
A few years ago walked into a pub with an old black friend, both of us making free use of the much-execrated 'N word'. The white barman was horrified, rolling his eyes and so on... tee hee!
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 29 Aug 16 at 13:11
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>> Ofays can't always get away with it;
I had to google that. Sounds just as offensive as anything else.
I must admit, I don't really understand the need for such words. Offensive when used against someone it applies to, and pretentious when used by someone it applies to.
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>> >> Ofays can't always get away with it;
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>> I had to google that.
Me as well, never heard of it. I thought he'd mispelt something at first reading it.
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Offensive and/or pretentious when you use them perhaps FMR, but not when I do.
The more words there are in general use the better, it seems to me. I refuse to be censored even by you in po-faced mode.
Think about something else if you can't cope with this stuff (he added rudely).
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You're such an a***. I merely asked you what it meant, I certainly have no interest in censoring you, there's no need.
You are one of the most pretentious people in here, although not generally offensive. Pretty much how your usage of such words comes across. As for how they sound when I use them, well its difficult to know. Because I don't.
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>> You're such an a***
>> one of the most pretentious people in here
Ah shaddap, mo'fo. Don't like heat, stay out of kitchen.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 29 Aug 16 at 13:38
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[Sigh]. Didn't sound like me who was suffering from the heat.
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Oh do stop it FMR. Wish me a happy birthday or something. Untwist your knickers, there's a good chap (I know you are one really).
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>> you, but there were real nasty racists in those days
>>
there are real casual racists these days.
>> black friend
>>
casual racists have plenty of those.
>> It did seem an unnecessary comment,
It got the reaction intended, even if subconsciously.
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The thing quite a few of you are missing is quite a lot of derogatory terms are ok if uttered by a member of the community the term refers to, but most definitely not ok, if uttered by somebody else. It's a very fine line to walk.
All of this is not helped by the fact that language and usage moves on, and several terms that were widely used in the 1960s, are most certainly not acceptable these days.
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>> It's a very fine line to walk.
Yes.
I don't expect to be misunderstood, and seldom am.
It may be hard to believe this, but even I miscalculate or get careless from time to time.
I have usually found that when I am misunderstood, a careful explanation does the trick. But there are people who want to find fault or enjoy being offended. You can't do anything with people who are stupid and don't like the cut of your jib. Takes all sorts.
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An artistic cousin-in-law gave an exhibition the other day. I bought a collage of Charlie Parker for Herself and a rather splendid one of Christine Keeler for me.
Haven't paid yet. There was muttering about a special rate for extended family members, so yeee-hah!
Used to meet Christine and Mandy R-D back in the day. They were tough cookies but the Gate in those days was very cosmopolitan (for want of a better word). See my memoirs of poor old Priest and of the charming Rene (pronounced Reeny, not Renay). I was lucky to be there at that time.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 29 Aug 16 at 15:11
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Christine Keeler's daughter was in one of the "After Dark" late night discussions which Channel 4 broadcast live in the 80's and 90's. She was very beautiful, but I was really bowled over by how dignified she was. Did you ever meet her, AC?
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I don't think so JB.
I did meet Christine a lot later in life, just a few years ago. She had married and was a respectable middle-aged lady.
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>> I don't think so JB.
I asked the question, AC, because I googled Christine Keeler recently, after someone I know made a crass remark about her. I found no mention of a daughter. I've just read the Wiki page for the After Dark series, however, and realise I'm probably thinking of Ruth Ellis's daughter who appeared in the discussion broadcast on 18 June 1988.
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>> someone I know made a crass remark about her
Crass remarks (unless maliciously intended) wouldn't have upset those girls back in the day. Indeed they were quite capable of making crass remarks themselves.
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>> Used to meet Christine and Mandy R-D back in the day.
An interesting exercise to google those two womens name followed by 'now'.
Quite some difference!
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>> ... See my memoirs of poor old Priest and of the charming Rene (pronounced Reeny, not Renay). I was lucky to be there at that time.
Does that refer to something I can read, AC?
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Both posted here years ago... 'Evenings with Rene' and 'By way of Kensal Green'. It's conceivable the moderators may be able to find them, but if they can't I still have them in electronic form. Anyway I think so. Don't really fancy digging them out.
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I looked, and I can't find them. I also checked HJ.
So if you're fairly sure that you used those phrases, then I think they've gone.
If you can think of another phrase that you may have used in either, preferably something a little unusual, I will have another look if you wish.
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I have usually found that when I am misunderstood, a careful explanation does the trick. But there are people who want to find fault or enjoy being offended. You can't do anything with people who are stupid and don't like the cut of your jib. Takes all sorts.
Most of the time these days, the loudest objectors to a word or phrase are those taking offence on behalf of others. For a perceived - not an actual slight.
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''Putting the engine in the back started the rot. Ferrari led the way but Lotus perfected the idea and made it work properly.''
Ahem. I think the Cooper company of Surbiton may have had a significant hand in it. (ducks below the parapet again)
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Ahem indeed.
You won't be getting any brickbats from me Mike. No need to duck!
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>> ''Putting the engine in the back started the rot. Ferrari led the way but Lotus
>> perfected the idea and made it work properly.''
>>
>> Ahem. I think the Cooper company of Surbiton may have had a significant hand in
>> it. (ducks below the parapet again)
I believe Auto Union preceded Cooper.
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>> Auto Union
Wow, yes, some sort of high-revving multi-cylinder monster of an engine, set high in the chassis, and with a bowel-loosening swing axle back end.
Only for the very brave or totally insane, and with lightning fluid reactions to keep the Reaper at bay. There were a couple of drivers who campaigned the monsters successfully, but I think they killed some good drivers too.
Oversteer is all very well, but what a sane person needs is predictable, controllable fun oversteer, not a couple of tons of expensively worked metal grating angrily: 'Think you can drive, do you? Try this...'
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7 litre V12 I think. Terrifying beast.
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Not quite, but 550bhp and no aerodynamics must have made it fun to drive.
See wikipedia here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto_Union_racing_car
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No, V16 God help us.
How did those cats do it? No doubt they guzzled speed...
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Very, very fancy fuel. Not the sort of thing you'd find at your local filling station.
Pretty sure the Auto Union had toluene in the mix but the same period Mercedes race car ran on 85-percent methanol, 10-pecent nitromethane and five-percent acetone. Anyone who has run model aero engines will be familiar with adding up to 1% nitromethane, but 10%... we're not talking put a tiger in your tank, more like a bomb.
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More likely to end up as a high speeed version of Robot Wars?
www.bbc.com/news/video_and_audio/headlines/37214619
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He's retiring from F1 after Sunday's Abu Dhabi Grand Prix.
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/38092740
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Nice guy. Ex F1 drivers often pop up in touring car racing e.g. at Le Mans, from where Webber has just retired. There was a rumour earlier this week that Alonso might drive at LM next year.
EDIT they become much more approachable at LM. There is an obligatory autograph session for the fans, but also at scrutineering earlier in the week you can easily catch any driver and most will stand and chat for a few minutes. And you can often catch them by chance at the back of the pits area.
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 24 Nov 16 at 13:46
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Lewis Hamilton says he is going to minimise his appearances at news conferences over what he says is a lack of respect from the media.
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/37583862
Winding up the press a good idea?
Stop moaning and concentrate on the day job?
Is he in the right frame of mind to give a good performance on the track?
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All the signs of someone who has lost it for the moment.
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All the signs of a narcissist who has hung about too much with international oxygen thief, Kanye West.
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Maybe he's just fed up with being knocked for whatever he does. Fairly typical behaviour by the media and the public.
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Hamilton has, over the years, alienated his support base by his moaning, whining and hanging out with a crows who are - let's be blunt - just one step up from street hoodlums.
His wannabe gangsta lifestyle, and the company he keeps, seems to have been orchestrated by a certain Mr Bernie E, who maybe saw the 'association'as a way in to a whole new audience of F1 fans.
It is notable that as 'BBC sports personality of the year' in 2014, his popularity dropped in 2015, when he gleaned less than 5% of the vote...
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Ian, would they be the hooded crows he's hanging out with?
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Hmmm the youth of today eh?
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Sounds like he is beginning to believe his own aspirations of being a "celebrity"
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He must be a celebrity - just look at his tasteless, but expensive, ear studs.
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz eh? eh?
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And the results were/are/are/are
1. LH
2. NR
and
3. MV
no make that
3. SV so quick jump on the podium
but hang on
no make that
3. DR (too late for the podium but now 1916 3rd in the championship )
so before retiring for the night
!.LH
2.NR
3. DR
4.MV
5.SV
6. KR
so the all finished in pairs by manufacturer.
I think I understand it. I hope it is still the result when I wake up :-)
but who is top of the swear box championship ?
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Too many rules and regs, not to mention all the inconsistences from the race stewards. Just let them race.
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Race starts and finishes in same order for top 2.
That was BORING.
(No wonder it is going down the tubes for audience numbers)..
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Almost all football is boring to me, but millions love it, I know very little about it, and my opinion of it is irrelevant.
I am however a fan of motor racing. It was a boring race, decided by penalties given or not to Vettel, Max Max, Hamilton and Rosberg.
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>> Race starts and finishes in same order for top 2.
>> That was BORING.
But at least the TV producers didn't concentrate on Lewis's and Nico's race, but chose to show the rest of field racing, having a few scrapes, and near misses. I bet all the advertisers for the AMG Mercedes team were chuffed about that - not.
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Once, they sought sponsorship so that they could afford to race. Now Formula 1 exists to pull in fans', sponsors' and broadcasters' money to create a return for big investors.
Is that the difference between F1 today, and F1 in the days when Ken Tyrell's cars were made in a shed by a handful of people? Was it inevitable?
Maurizio Arrivabene is an odd one. Following Ferrari's rather disappointing performances in qualifying and in the race, he declined to give interviews, passing up the chance to get his sponsors' names on screen.
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I wonder how good a driver Lance Stroll will be as a replacement to Massa? And I wonder what makes the son of a billionaire a target for such an F1 team ;-) Driving ability or buying a seat?
Okay I did read he was the European F3 champion but were there better drivers available? Maybe he's the next Vettel/Rosber/Hamilton?
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Amazing what a little bit of rain does.
Hamilton takes it to the wire. Rosberg just needs a 3rd place to win it.
Verstappen driving far better than his old man did. Great car control.
Vettel whinging yet again "he tried to force me off the track"
And poor old Massa at his final home GP. Still it was nice of the pits to give him a standing ovation on his walk back to his garage. Quite a moving touch I thought.
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At the Dubai GP I was told that the locals didn't understand The Flintstones
But those in Abu Dhabi do
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 28 Nov 16 at 01:26
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>
>> And poor old Massa at his final home GP. Still it was nice of the
>> pits to give him a standing ovation on his walk back to his garage. Quite
>> a moving touch I thought.
>>
Button's just had to walk back to the pits on HIS last G.P !
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 28 Nov 16 at 01:26
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What will the response be this time for LH trying to get the right result for him and ignoring all requests to drive faster ?
Plonk him on the naughty step to watch the next GP ? :-)
A little competition for all now that the season is over?
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Mercedes should take some realty medicine. Lewis was only doing what any decent racer would have done. Actions were legal and arguably far more decent than has been done by others in the same situation.
I'm surprised a team with Lauda among them even asked.
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His only chance of winning was to be enough places ahead of Rosberg. He broke no rules.
If Lewis did let him past then that would have been wrong. I suppose what they really wanted Lewis to do was speed up but maybe he just wanted to make sure his tyres lasted. And who knows what might have happened to Rosberg's car.
I hope nothing comes of this and nobody is punished.
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Nothing will come of it. The team / Toto will conclude that they created the problem by asking him to do something which would put them in a corner if Hamilton, as he was likely to, ignored it.
Or...
The team will decide that whilst what Hamilton was doing to try to win the drivers'championship was understandable, he was nevertheless actually trying to make the team result worse which cannot be condoned. SO he will be fined half a crown by Mercedes and given a stern lecture which he will ignore.
As someone remarked, others have done far worse and indeed Rosberg could have taken Hamilton and himself out of the race either at the start or in those final laps had he been so minded. Hamilton could hardly have complained at Rosberg emulating his (Hamilton's) own hero, Senna.
Actually I didn't mind what Hamilton did. Much less gracious have been his excuses and saying that he is the better driver who would have won but for his bad luck with reliability. Over their time together at Mercedes, it has pretty well evened out anyway, that's just the way it goes.
Not to say he isn't 'better'. It's just not for him to say so, but we must expect it of such driven, competitive types sometimes.
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>> Button's just had to walk back to the pits on HIS last G.P !
Were you watching the same race as the rest of us? He limped the car back to the pits, then got out and climbed up onto the car just in front of the cockpit and received a massive applause from the viewing crowd in the grandstand.
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LH has got a lot of stick for trying to win the championship.
He did the right thing, its a competition and he used tactics to try and make that happen - it is sportsmanship.
I can't see how a driver in a competitive situation like this is in a team with other drivers who are also out to win. If the manufacturer says "A" should win and not "B" then this is surely race fixing?
To my mind the team is a driver, designers, engineers and mechanics. Not driver, driver, etc.
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Move Hamilton on and bring in Verstappen for Mercedes.
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Looks like Rosberg has solved the problem for them
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/38185846
shock or what?
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 2 Dec 16 at 15:54
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>> Looks like Rosberg has solved the problem for them
>>
>> shock or what?
>>
Or bad management or LH won the mind games.
So up for grabs, one potential hot seat in an unknown car.
Guesses who!!!!
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Wehrlein is of course German, and already in thrall to Mercedes.
Some speculation that Mercedes might want Bottas - he's under contract to Williams but money would fix that, and Mercedes could probably lend them Wehrlein as part of the deal.
Mercedes might just take a chance on Wehrlein, having seen how successful another talented tyro has been at Red Bull.
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>> shock or what?
Quit while at the top of his game. Not many do that.
Wonder if Button will change his mind and come back to Brawn Mercedes?
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Eddie Jordan has often come up with news ahead of its release, but this one seems to have missed him. I wonder if he had any inkling?
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Latest suggestions
Massa returns to Williams as Bottas goes to Mercedes
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/38335169
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SPA - henry k
