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Ongoing debate
Last edited by: R.P. on Wed 21 Dec 16 at 14:08
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tinyurl.com/gteehnz
Link to the Western Morning News showing the mechanic who looked after the truck has now been charged.
I dread to think just how bad the maintenance on that lorry was for the fitter to be charged.
If successful it will be a wake up call for a lot of fitters around the country who think the part they play is over when the lorry is driven out of the workshop door.
Still no excuse for the driver or the owner who must (should) have been aware of the state of the vehicle.
Pat
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I wonder what the mechanic did or didn't to bring this about?
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The law states that
>>To permit an offence
Guilty knowledge is required to permit an offence. TM or workshop staff who fail to show a duty of care that offences are not committed
(allowing vehicle to be used with defects / Drivers hours)<<
I assume he was aware of the mechanical condition of the vehicle and allowed it to be used.
Pat
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I meant specifically but I suppose that won't be out until the court case.
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Bad, or no, maintenance is rarely confined to one specific item.
If a company cares that little about safety of other road users, it's drivers and it's reputation then often it has the type of worth ethic where it only gets repaired when it's broken...and that's usually a bodge job.
Pat
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I'm sure not as well, but we'll have to wait. When is the trial?
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As far as I know a date hasn't been set yet.
The fitter being charged shows there has been an enormous amount of investigative work done. It's very unusual to go down that route and maybe we'll get date set soon now.
Pat
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>> As far as I know a date hasn't been set yet.
>>
IIRC local press mentioned trial starting in July.
Agree with Pat that it's unusual for the fitter to be brought into it. However, if he is found guilty of negligence or whatever they charge him with, some good may come of it inasmuch as it will send out a signal to other garages (and not just in the HGV sector) that they cannot simply get away with bodging.
I would add that blaming the fitter does not by definition exonerate the driver, unless it can be proven beyond doubt that any dodgy work would not have shown up in the driver's routine daily checks.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Fri 13 May 16 at 08:49
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He's been charged with two counts of manslaughter HM, and his next court appearance is June.
I agree it doesn't exonerate the driver in anyway, or the owner of the firm.
I will be (yet again) trying to sress the importance of daily walk round checks this afternoon, and then having the b*lls to refuse to drive the vehicle.
The latter so often seems to be the problem.
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Fri 13 May 16 at 09:06
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I will be (yet again) trying to sress the importance of daily walk round checks
>> this afternoon, and then having the b*lls to refuse to drive the vehicle.
>>
>> The latter so often seems to be the problem.
I think things like that aren't so much of the users' problem but one further up, a cultural issue. Although it's difficult for anyone person to impliment.
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I do so agree with you Sooty...however, management wouldn't:)
Pat
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Fitter charged, which is understandable if he (she) let a vehicle out with faults but what happens if he was ordered to let it out by his bosses because a time table had to be kept to?
I would expect to see charges further up the line as well?
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>> I assume he was aware of the mechanical condition of the vehicle and allowed it to be used.
Do HGVs have a list of acceptable defects published by the manufacturer which the mechanic can refer to, or is it left to best judgement?
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Do HGVs have a list of acceptable defects published by the manufacturer which the mechanic can refer to, or is it left to best judgement?
A finer recipe for disaster and legal action I've yet to see!
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With HGV's there is no such thing as an acceptable defect
Minor defect, such as trailer top marker light bulb or plating certificate not present, means a defect report is filled in at the time and either fixed by the driver before leaving the yard (some will, some won't) or on return to base by a fitter.
Anything other than that simply doesn't go out on the road until it has been rectified, even if it involves a call out to a fitter at 2.30am and a day of failed deliveries because of the delay.
No if's or but's.
That's the way it is now and the days of 'letting it develop' are long gone.
There's a checkable paper trail to see this is happening and firms are expected to monitor the effectiveness of it.
Pat
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>> With HGVs there is no such thing as an acceptable defect.
>>
>> Minor defect, such as trailer top marker light bulb or plating certificate not present, means
>> a defect report is filled in at the time and either fixed by the driver
>> before leaving the yard (some will, some won't) or on return to base by a fitter.
FF is coming at it from an aircraft perspective, so it would be similar to what you call a minor defect. In your example above a light has gone and paperwork is filled in to get it repaired at the next suitable point ie on return to base.
So who or where does it state what a minor defect is? Where is it defined?
Aircraft are similar in that sense but they termed acceptable faults. The judgement would be made by the engineers who could leave a fault for a set period of time before rectifying it. It might be deferred for various reasons.
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It's not defined anywhere sooty, that's the problem in transport.
Broadly speaking, a minor defect is something not considered to be a danger to another road user.
Pat
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Is it not the case that if it complies with the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations and other applicable legislation, which generally leave little room for doubt?
That's a question, not statement, in case it isn't obvious.
I'm not very familiar with how it works on aircraft, but MEL (Minimum Equipment List) and CDL (Configuration Deviation List) are among the relevant things to compare with. One being a list of what you must have, and the other listing some of the things that can be managed without IIRC.
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>> It's not defined anywhere sooty, that's the problem in transport.
>>
>>
I take it that's for both fitters as well drivers?
Is there any system in place for anyone to make a judgement on acceptable defects?
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Bromp
Would really appreciate you keeping an eye on this one and getting the full court report upon conclusion.
It is the first time a fitter has been charged with manslaughter and it will be crucial how the courts deal with this one.
TIA
Pat
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Pat,
I'm watching this one of course. Not just cyclist road safety that causes me concern.
It's a jury trial in the Crown Court so at best publication is only going to be judges sentencing remarks in event of guilty verdict(s). There is no discernible rationale for those cases where sentencing remarks are published v those where not. I remain surprised that those in the Spalding murder case did not appear.
There will be no record of the jury's thought process (and it would be a contempt to try to find out).
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I understand, thanks Bromp.
I have a particular interest as it's increasingly harder to get fitters to realise they are responsible and are not God!
Incidentally, I read all the court reports you publish and thoroughly enjoy them. It's better than reading The Sun any day!
Pat
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>> where sentencing remarks are published v those where not. I remain surprised that those in the Spalding murder case did not appear.
<<
I suspect it would have identified them if it had been published.
Pat
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"On the date of the crash the lorry had serious and long standing defects with its braking system, meaning that it was and had been for some time in a dangerous condition." (BBC website)
I don't think this is going to end too well.
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More details emerging in the local press
tinyurl.com/zc4afa2
Is short an ex employee has stated the truck suffered brake failure before and he left due to his concerns over maintenance
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Thanks Mikey, what a catalogue of errors.
Pat
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>> Thanks Mikey, what a catalogue of errors.
>>
>> Pat
>>
I think that's putting it mildly Pat. Errors are mistakes; this stinks of deliberate negligence.
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Life would be too lenient.
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Thanks Mikey, I forgot to look for the court report yesterday.
It was my first long day alone in the house without Gussy and it was so quiet and empty but today is another day.
Hard to imagine just how hot that drum was at the time of the accident.
Pat
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The numbers didn't mean much to me, but I guess an expert would be able to work back from the known temperature at 4 hours after the accident and using the ambient temperature work out what they would have been at the time of the accident.
This has been a bit of an eyeopener to me - I thought the level of regulation in place would stop this kind of thing happening
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I'll try and explain Mikey, but I fear I will be accused of being biased, taking sides etc. by some.
I'm truly not and do not condone this in any way but that doesn't mean that my years in the haulage business don't mean I can't understand how it's happened.
There are layers of regulation in place which should have prevented this happening but sadly the unscrupulous will always find a way round them.
We'll start at the top.....The operators licence should never have been granted to a person like this, but until something happens no-one in the system know he is 'like this' as an operator providing he has been of good repute in the past.
Maintenance. The fitter should have walked out or insisted upon repairing the vehicles. He could also have reported the firm to DVSA anonymously and it would have been investigated and found in a targeted spot check.
But he would have lost his job and he was in his 50's so jobs are not easy to come by.
Two previous drivers are reported to have left over lack of maintenance to the vehicles...good for them.
The driver is the last link in the chain and probably in the worst position as a refusal to take a dangerous vehicle out on the road takes some balls if your boss is persuasive/ stroppy/ bad tempered and often results in him being shown the yard gate and told not to come back.
The driver of this vehicle had only worked there for a few days and had just passed his test. He's found a job when very inexperienced which is so very hard to do.
He wouldn't have realised the depth of neglect with the maintenance or have realised what the consequences could have been.
He was following his Boss through the width limit down the hill, his peer, an experienced driver and wouldn't question that.
An experienced driver would have felt the brakes fading and acted accordingly by driving alongside a wall or something solid to slow down gradually and eventually bring the vehicle to a halt.
With an inexperienced driver he wouldn't think of cadence braking to preserve the brakes and IMHO he can't be blamed for that, however I think he will be.
In January this year the senior Traffic Commissioner, Beverley Bell made a very ground breaking statement in which she stated that in future lorry drivers were responsible for making sure they had the knowledge to do the job both legally and safely and they could no longer blame pressure from their employer as a reason for being illegal.
A very good thing in one way, but on the other hand for the new driver who doesn't have to have any training on maintenance, H&S or how to work a tachograph, let alone what the law says, before passing his test, it's a huge cross to bear and to get that knowledge it means that £2500 he's just invested in the medicals, tests and practical training is insufficient and he'll need more money to train himself up to standard or 'wing it'.
.....and they wonder why there is a driver shortage.
There is only a very small percentage of firms like this example and the vast majority absolutely forbid a driver to take a vehicle on the road with a defect. with no repercussions for doing that. I suspect HM's firm is like ours where it would result in a disciplinary.
Having said all that...it is a legal requirement that a driver does a thorough daily walk round check on any vehicle he drives before he takes it on the road and report any defects in writing.
This is where it all started to fall apart...
Hope this helps but please don't shoot the messenger!
Pat
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>> Hope this helps <<
Obviously it didn't!
Pat
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Give him a chance Pat ;)
He hasn't returned to the forum since posting yesterday.
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I was sort of hoping it may be interesting for some others who don't really understand how it works too!
At least I haven't had the usual answer I get when asked in a frantic phone call from a driver.....I've done this/that and the other, can I legally do this?
No, that would be illegal
Cue me being called stupid, ridiculous. the law (me!) is an ass and with a few swear words thrown in.
Hence, please don't shoot the messenger!
Pat
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Hey I read what you wrote and found it interesting and helpful - not a thumby/frownie guy though.
I don't own the site and try not to be libellous so I don't care what you link ;-)
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>> I was sort of hoping it may be interesting for some others who don't really
>> understand how it works too!
You made the point very well that the person who could potentially have prevented this was the fitter, by reporting them anonymously - but if I understood your implied point correctly, he would have lost his job when the wagon was found to be so defective. (Unless you meant he would lose it when the firm inevitably folded).
It's a pity that the driver who left did do it when he had another job to go to.
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>>It's a pity that the driver who left did do it when he had another job to go to. <<
I'd like to bet he bitterly regrets not doing it now as well, but it's never an easy decision to make as you make friends with the other employees and risk putting them out of a job as well.
Pat
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>> Give him a chance Pat ;)
>>
>> He hasn't returned to the forum since posting yesterday.
>>
Sorry, wasn't aware I was being timed ;-)
Yes Pat, that was an interesting summary you gave. My background is the Aerospace industry so I'm used to considerable regulation, and if anyone raises any concerns over the aircraft then they would be followed up straight away - I'm don't think it would be frowned upon.
I guess I forget that Aerospace is an industry where safety comes far before cash
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You wasn't being timed by me Mikey, I was being deafened by the silence from the others!
>>Aerospace is an industry where safety comes far before cash<<
In this case that may well be true but please don't think it's indicative of the whole haulage industry.
Our regulation is underpinned by a paper trail and putting ticks in boxes, and that's only ever as good the person holding the pen.
Pat
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> Our regulation is underpinned by a paper trail and putting ticks in boxes, and that's only ever as good the person holding the pen.
Those processes are important but a culture of safety needs to come first. Given that no industry is perfect, however do think that the haulage industry is there? Can someone stick their hand up and say, no that's not safe.
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Yes Sooty, everyone along that chain can, and should, do that.
I tend to train drivers 'ars* covering and that's what the paper trail is for.
Providing it is filled in, from the defect sheets a driver produces, to the check sheet a fitter fills in when he does a 6 week safety check on a vehicle, then it proves you have done what is legally required of you.
However, if anyone decides to tick boxes and doesn't check first then the discrepancy is only discovered in a situation like this one.
In the vast majority of firms it is very possible to insist a vehicle is unsafe and refuse to take it out without repercussion.
The next step in the chain though would be the fitter who's responsibility it is to repair or replace parts or deem it to be safe, and they have a nasty habit or pulling rank on a driver by virtue of asking 'what mechanical training have you had to make a decision'?
In that sort of situation and with the scenario of a serious accident then the buck would stop with the fitter and the owner/operators licence holder.
......of course a driver has to prove he had that conversation, which is why a paper trail, as in a defect book where there is a carbon copy which the driver keeps, is so absolutely essential.
Pat
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In the vast majority of firms it is very possible to insist a vehicle is
>> unsafe and refuse to take it out without repercussion.
That's what i was wondering about thanks.
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>>There are layers of regulation ............
b***** good, and realistic, perspective.
All too often those judging / reading about / talking about after the event are full of hindsight and judgement and sanctimonious opinion. These fitters, drivers and others live in the the real world, which is not always an easy place to be.
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Digressing
>>Aerospace is an industry where safety comes far before cash
As does/ should the aviation business.
The comments I have read on one of the aviation websites about the reasons/ speculation for the crash near Medellin makes one concerned about all regulations in the world etc and still this could happen.
It is good to read that the lorry business is in general doing its best to ensure safe haulage.
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I always find these court reports a bit strange. Are we really interested in what the various attendees were wearing? They will be telling us what was eaten for breakfast next.
That aside, the court report does get worse and worse. I think a few people might be having a less than pleasurable Christmas this year.
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>> I always find these court reports a bit strange. Are we really interested in what the various attendees were wearing?
You could argue that dressing smartly is a way of being respectful to the court. If so, the driver is, but the other two are not really bothered.
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I suppose I'd dress up for a court appearance but many wouldn't these days, less out of disrespect and more to do with general fashion/style. Just look round any theatre. As a massive generalisation, older people will dress up for an occasion, whereas younger people will wear whatever is comfortable. Their torn jeans will often cost more than the old man's suit.
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Thanks Pat
It is hardly believable no records were kept.
I suspect if a guilty verdict is found, the verdict will be "throw the book at them".
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I do hope so.
A fitter with no formal mechanical training, a boss who just wants the job done regardless...
The most telling thing for me was the fact that the boss said to the driver after the accident 'Don't tell them about the ABS light'
So wrong on so many levels.
Pat
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One of the most telling things for me Pat is that the company evidently had the money to obtain "private" number plates but not to spend on essential maintenance.
Seen firms like that before; but they don't usually last long enough to kill people by their actions or lack of them.
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I agree HM, it's just unbelievable.
25 years ago this was normal practice but I really thought we'd progressed past that and started to be compliant and responsible.
Pat
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>> 25 years ago this was normal practice but I really thought we'd progressed past that
>> and started to be compliant and responsible.
>>
>> Pat
>>
Indeed Pat; and like football violence, the decent honest folk inevitably get tarred with the same brush as the wrong 'uns.
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>> one of the most telling things for me Pat is that the company evidently had the money to obtain "private" number plates
Sometimes done to disguise the age of the fleet, was quite common with coaches at one time. Doesn't cost much to get hold of an Irish plate with no year identification on it.
However, that may not be the reason in this case.
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>> A fitter with no formal mechanical training...
Picking up on this particular point; I would suggest it's possibly far more common than might be thought, but on the other hand, it might, at least for a few more years, be inevitable.
That fitter is only a year or so younger than me, and when he started work it was by no means uncommon to work as an HGV fitter, learn your trade "on the job" without ever going to college and still be perfectly competent and experienced in the eyes of the industry; indeed some of the best fitters I've ever come across came into the industry that way.
On the flip side of it, I hold recognised qualifications (City & Guilds, National Craftsmans' Certificate, time-served apprenticeship) by virtue of my Army service, but I would no more qualify myself as an HGV fitter than an astronaut, and indeed, I'd possibly be as much of if not more of a liability than that particular bloke was by virtue of my lack of relevant up-to-date experience.
You might be interested to know that the same thing applies to operators; the CPC (Certificate of Professional Competence) which is obligatory for all commercial HGV and PSV operators is a one-off qualification and AFAIK needs no upgrading during the holder's lifetime.
However, drivers of buses and lorries who wish to earn their living doing same must by law undergo a minimum of 35 hours classroom instruction, topped up by a day's training every year in order to hold the DCPC (Driver's Certificate of Professional Competence) which is as you all know what Pat earns her living training people to achieve.
Whilst I don't disagree with the logic of DCPC (although I have reservations about both the practicality of some of the courses and the lack of a tangible "pass") I do think it's wholly wrong that operators should avoid similar modular training. I have a good friend, a CPC holder, who was amazed to find out how much he was out of touch with modern regulations, but it wouldn't have stopped him getting an operator's licence should he have wished to apply for one. This is surely wrong.
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Day 11:
www.bathchronicle.co.uk/live-day-11-of-trial-in-bristol-crown-court-of-trio-charged-following-bath-tipper-truck-tragedy/story-29957805-detail/story.html
"Some of the lorries, including L8 CMT, had no record of six-weekly safety checks when police raided Grittenham Haulage the day after the crash. L8 CMT went without a safety inspection for nearly nine months."
"Grittenham Haulage was operating two vehicles that it was not meant to under the terms of its operator licence."
"Four of its lorries had identified defects."
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Thanks MS, I missed that yesterday as we had a long day at Addenbrookes and the Dentist...but all is well:)
I'll catch up as soon as I get caught up!
Pat
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Well, I couldn't resist it but words fail me again.
Look forward to seeing what the defence angle is.
Pat
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Is it me, or is it a very confusing report? Wasn't it Potter who drove the crashed lorry? Can Gordon be charged with death by dangerous, and by careless driving?
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This link tells who is charged with what.
www.bathchronicle.co.uk/bath-tipper-trial-what-are-phillip-potter-matthew-gordon-and-peter-wood-charged-with/story-29960282-detail/story.html
I would think the decision is made via this criteria.
USE
Anyone who gains by the offence is guilty of ‘using’.
Director = Financial Gain
Driver = Earning wages
CAUSE
Causing needs some guilty knowledge and a degree of direction such as pressure to exceed hours
PERMIT
Guilty knowledge is required to permit an offence. TM or workshop staff who fail to show a duty of care that offences are not committed
(allowing vehicle to be used with defects / Drivers hours)
INCITEMENT
Urges another to commit an offence e.g T/M OR Driver suggests falsifying records but decides not to do so
AID & ABET
Helping someone else to interrupt a tacho etc.
COUNSELLING & PROCURRING
Counselling = advise or assist before an offence
Procuring = instigating or arranging an offence.
Pat
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There was no court session last Friday but todays contains some damning reports.
www.bathchronicle.co.uk/tipper-truck-trial-over-11-hours-of-repair-work-carried-out-on-matthew-gordon-s-lorries/story-29977097-detail/story.html
I really do hope the pleading ignorance turns out to be no defence.
Pat
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Hi Pat.. I've just read all of that. My God, aren't they a bunch of ruddy morons?
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Taking in £10K a week and paying drivers £10K to £12.5K a week.....good businessman as well. I wonder where all the money for maintenance came from.
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It says "He confirmed his business was taking in up to £10,000 a week or half a million pounds a year and that he was paying four of five drivers a total of about £2,000 to £2,500 a week."
Which I read as being a total payout to drivers of £2k - £2.5k pw, not each...
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So did I. Was he really paying an individual driver £8000 - £10k a month (so up to £130k pa)? I don't think so.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 12 Dec 16 at 23:32
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He would be paying a top line wage of around £500 per driver per week but I bet that was related to how much work they did.
It would explain the many tachograph hours infringements previously mentioned in court.
There is so much I could say but I don't want to cause the thread to be removed so I'll stay schtum until it's over!
Pat
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If it's true he paid out £2000-£2500 per month to drivers but took in at least £10k a month..... that's a lot of money to not be putting towards maintenance etc.
I concur with RP - and probably not just for the owner.
If they hadn't gone down that hill with that lorry on that particular day, the unmaintained lorries might still be driving around!
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 13 Dec 16 at 10:02
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Don't forget that any haulage company's biggest bill is diesel, far higher than wages or maintenance.
Pat
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>> I smell porridge.
>>
With honey and toast..
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This report is only until lunchtime today, but it's another catalogue of errors and passing the buck.
www.bathchronicle.co.uk/tipper-trial-hears-truck-owner-admit-brake-inspection-days-before-crash-was-totally-inadequate/story-29979698-detail/story.html
I'll try and get this afternoons report as it's published but it's usually out by now.
Pat
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>> Todays final session.
>>
>> Pat
That's really good reporting. Few nationals, never mind local papers, seem able to do straight narrative court reports anymore.
What would Iffy have to say?
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It is good reporting Bromp, and when you consider it must be a highly emotive topic locally it makes it even more worthy of note.
Pat
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I shudder to think of the thoughts and emotions of the relatives at the trial... It would be hard to restrain anger at some of the attitudes evident. (Expurgated version)
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www.bathchronicle.co.uk/bath-tipper-trial-driver-phillip-potter-takes-the-stand-for-the-first-time-at-bristol-crown-court/story-29983206-detail/story.html##
The driver has taken the stand for the first time and this is the report up to lunchtime.
For clarity, I would like to say the yellow ABS warning light wouldn't have been a fault that would have caused this type of brake failure.
It is commonly caused by a piece of grit getting in between the disc and the sensor and is particularly common when a vehicle is doing any type of 'off road' work.
Nevertheless, it should have been documented and dealt with.
Pat
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They started showing more coverage on last nights local news.
Interestingly you commented about the quality of the journalism in the chronicle - well, the local news is read by a young lady who used to report for that paper. The Bristol post, by comparison, is awful
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How long is this trial set to last?
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>> How long is this trial set to last?
It's in the report. Judge's summing up expected to be completed on Tuesday, then the jury is out.
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>> It's in the report. Judge's summing up expected to be completed on Tuesday, then the
>> jury is out.
Right, thanks. Tbh I've not read the links just the comments on here.
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Whilst it wouldn't absolve or reduce the culpability of anybody else if they have committed an offence, I can see the enforcement agencies coming in for a bit of stick after this.
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They certainly should do.
They practice 'targeted enforcement' but having said that the interim O licence had been refused so 'technically' the firm didn't exist.
There has to be some way of stopping this happening again.
Pat
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>> They practice 'targeted enforcement'
True Pat; but the cynic in me suspects that a measure of that is driven by the need/desire to further their income. Unfortunately, cowboys like this lot just reinforce the public perception that all hauliers are bent.
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www.bathchronicle.co.uk/live-day-19-of-trial-in-bristol-crown-court-of-trio-charged-following-bath-tipper-truck-tragedy/story-29988190-detail/story.html
Yesterday's summing p report has finally come to light.
One thing is incorrect.
The yellow ABS light being on would NOT have indicated that the exhaust brake wasn't working.
Pat
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Bath tipper accident, more charges. - Pat
