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Idly browsing Autotrader for mildly used cars today. "She" has been muttering about wanting a change. Don't shoot the messenger but the sort of things she likes are Jukes, Cacti and so on.
Can't help but notice that even not very used diesel examples are suddenly much cheaper. I guess it's a reaction to all the press at the moment. She doesn't "need" a diesel, but maybe it's oddly enough, a smart move right now? Not worried about clogging engines etc, her commute is long enough to allow re-gen but not so long that economy is paramount.
Thoughts?
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 23 May 17 at 10:09
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I expect door mirrors cost the same for both petrol an diesel models.
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Do you think that politicians from the top down to the local ones could resist a tax grab? Road fund, fuel, emmisions, toxicity charges, I am sure they will be inventive if they can make some cash. I recently bought my first petrol powered car after three decades of diesel driving, I do not miss diesel powered cars.
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I guess the thing to be wary of is what the long term implications are. We tend to keep our cars a good while so who knows what legislation is to come. Just been driving "his" Aygo. Good fun wee thing and I think she'd enjoy something similar but she wants something a bit bigger. In truth there's nothing much wrong with her Qashqai. ( and it's a petrol ) I suppose it'll need money spending on it eventually but so far it has been pretty much faultless ( new mirrors notwithstanding )
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Sat 11 Mar 17 at 17:06
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Have a look at the Honda CR-V, diesel and petrol. I have the EX which has just about everything electric.
Probably too expensive for a shoe salesman like you, but you could always source a pre-owned one like wot I did.
:-)
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Honda might be a good thought. A friend up in Scotland has one and he seems pleased with it. Want to think it's a 1.6ish petrol. Might be 2.0, not sure.
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Sat 11 Mar 17 at 17:20
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Took my 11plate Focus 1.6 diesel to my friends auto engineers this AM for its MOT. A large place with 17 hydraulic lifts! He is chief MOT tester and we began talking cars ( as always). He is very pro Japanese petrol, and always tells me to stay clear of German diesels out of warranty, unless they are old school low tech like my previous '04 330. He was regaling me with horror stories of 4yo ' Premium brand' motors passing through the auto engineers costing lots of ££ in repairs.
As a reliable ' lots of bang for your bucks ' he recommends the Focus ST. Nowhere near the trim quality levels of Golf Gtis, BMWs and their ilk but he rates the mechanicals very highly.
He still thinks older diesels are fine, especially mine...which surprised me, but as a second hand purchase he is very wary of most modern diesels.
His own car is a 55 plate Civic 2.0S petrol with 160 horses ( I think). Perfect for his 4 mile commute, 40 mpg and super reliable. He gets his adrenaline rush from driving friends exotica.
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Ooh, er now then, I think "she" ought to consider a Focus ST...not that I'd nick it all the time or anything... ;-)
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Have you looked at the new Qashqai - had one on hire and was very impressed
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FYI, the Nice looking Impact Blue fully specced ST3 private sale on AT @ £13750 has been sold. And it had a sunroof!
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Here's a one-owner full Honda history diesel manual EX model up your way:
www4.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201701101159461
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All UK CRV petrols are 2.0.
Think there's a smaller turbo version on the horizon so fat discounts online for current models (starting at £17.2k for a 2.0 petrol manual on drivethedeal.com).
As previously mentioned our old petrol auto one that was sold in early 2010 at ~85k miles is still going (172k miles on its last MOT July 2016 -SK05LXD if you want to see the 'fail' list over the past decade).
30mpg at best but as bombproof mechanically as a modern motor can be.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Sat 11 Mar 17 at 20:00
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Kia Sportage seems to be a big seller?
Obvious choice for the Ford-loving Humph is a Ford Kuga 2wd. They come in some very striking colours too.
Big issue with the used market of course is that 80-90% of stock are probably diesels, so there won't be much of a choice for the petrol buyer.
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I had one of these delivered a few weeks ago:
www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/tucson
1.7CRDI DCT Auto Premium in Ara Blue.
Its on a lease. 3 down +35 and 75,000 miles for £370 per month.
No lease company could come anywhere near with a Kuga at the time I ordered it which is a shame, though the Hyundai comes with a 5 year unlimited mileage warranty which is a little extra piece of mind.
Lovely car, drives well, quite peppy in sports mode with the 141ps engine and despite the reviews it holds the road nicely.
It has collision mitigation technology, blind spot warnings, rear cross radar, rear cameras, lane keeping assist (that actually takes over steering). The interior is fine in black leather and the sat nav and infotainment system is reasonable. There is no CD player though!
I do too many miles to consider a petrol car at the moment and as I am not responsible for any depreciation, or road fund licence, I am happy with the diesel!
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I haven't driven a diesel Tuscon, but I drive a petrol one quite often. I really like it. Nice looking car as well.
My wife wants one to replace the plastic POS. So that'll be one decision I get little say in.
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Thanks all, plenty of food for thought. She's a bit keen on those Cactus thingies. I don't really have a problem with that. Not my taste, but it's not for me. Perhaps prudence would suggest a petrol one ( if she changes at all )
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>> She's a bit keen on those Cactus thingies.
Quite a few around here. Funny looking thing, smaller inside than I'd expected as well.
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As for buying a diesel, if you;d have bought one 6 months ago then why not? There'll be little that'll happen in the next couple of years which will have any material impact, just a bunch of talk.
The only issue could be resale value, but what with wheel rims and door mirrors will there be that much left to resell anyway?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 11 Mar 17 at 21:56
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I think a Seat Saguaro rolls off the tongue rather better than a Citroen Cactus
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Yes, very good !
No, the thing is, as I mentioned at the top of the thread, mildly second hand diesels seem to have at least temporarily, dropped in price. They may well become unfashionable or impractical for multiple reasons but at the moment seem a bit of a bargain. If someone was not too worried about the resale value in X years then it might be a smart-ish move.
Maybe.
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Howls about a Focus ST3 2.0 Tdci 185, hatch or estate, in Tangerine Scream. I quite like the colour, certainly makes one visible, for better or worse.
For 'sitty uppy' a whoopee cushion should suffice.
Last edited by: legacylad on Sat 11 Mar 17 at 22:28
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Not sitty uppy enough. Apparently.
Yeah, I know, but that's how it is. Cheshire lass.
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...as you know, after years of driving diesels as a company car (for tax obviously) and buying two diesels post-work (as I'd got used to the 'lazy' driving characteristics available by use of the torque) my recent X1 purchase was petrol.
I must admit that it was partially influenced by the 'gathering storm' over diesel engines, but, having decided the X1 fitted the bill, the fuel switch was further influenced by two additional factors:
a) I'd decided that I wanted to go automatic. This rather handled the issue of 'lazy' driving, with the gearchanges now taking care of themselves (and the petrol X1 only comes in auto form anyway).
b) like-for-like spec, the petrol was £1000 cheaper than the the diesel - which at my annual mileage compensates pretty fully for the difference in fuel consumption.
I have to say, I don't regret the change. The performance is 'adequate' (It should be at 192bhp, and though maximum torque is lower than diesel, it comes in lower down the rev range!). Subjectively (I test-drove the diesel) it is quieter and smoother to drive than the diesel. Fuel consumption figures are acceptable (mid to upper 30's overall, around mid 40's on a long run - not bad for a 2 litre auto 4WD, though I am light-footed).
So, the change to petrol suited me at the time, and I don't regret it. (The petrol X1 is a fairly rare beast).
However, coming from a diesel, the switch to auto helped, and I wouldn't have fancied a large drop in engine capacity. I'm unconvinced about smaller, turbo'd petrols. In fact, I prefer the direction that Mazda have gone in - putting large petrols in relatively small cars.
As a second (crossover) car, I could, I think, have lived with a 2.0 Mazda CX-3. Pleasant place to be in, gorgeous looks in the (extra cost) metallic red, but rear seat and boot space simply too restricted for use as prime vehicle.
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Driven many diesels as well as petrol vehicles, but would never buy other than a petrol engine car - can't beat one IMO for more involvement and much more enjoyable to drive in manual form.
Similarly can't stand stop/start, even though I think the pro-diesel brigade have missed making it clear that such techniques reduce emissions, particularly in town or city driving.
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No plans to change either car in next couple of years.
Prefer diesel torque for towing, but would need to think about options/risks before replacing.
If the Roomster was sideswiped by a bus tomorrow I'd replace it with another of same with diesel enginf.
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Ewe beat me to it ON, big stuff too IMO:
"Labour con-trolled Merton Council in sowf lunden intends to charge drivers of diesels £150 a year more than the standard £65 for a residents' parking permit"
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Seems perverse to charge extra for parking, when they are parked they are doing no harm.
And of course some people have off road parking, some don't. Hardly fair.
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Life has never been "fair" whatever fair is. I am sure the council will argue that you have to move your diesel within their jurisdiction to use the parking permit.
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Oh I get that it is a deterrent to ownership; but it will only hit those who need a parking permit. It also disregards presumably the fact that government is already in a position to manage the incentives more fairly.
The mean act of people who will not really be inconvenienced themselves I expect.
I have just bought a new diesel of course. Maybe a mistake, but at the moment the petrol alternatives are not all available.
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the fact that government is
>> already in a position to manage the incentives more fairly.
>>
What incentives were you thinking of?
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I am including disincentives of course.
They can mess with fuel duty and/or VED. The government will have a view on how those should be set.
An alternative view is that diesel does less harm in some places than in others, so there is a justification for local authorities sticking their nebs in, especially in urban areas.
What are we supposed to do? The car I bought, if it complies with applicable legislation, is Euro6 which allows less than half the NOx of Euro5.
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>> I have just bought a new diesel of course.
I am sure you did your research and accepted the possibility of the increased cost of running a diesel.
I have recently bought a new petrol of course. :-)
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I thought about a 330d touring before getting the M135i, they are a great combo of performance and economy though I ruled out a diesel on complexity terms, in the event that I might own it out of warranty and something might go wrong.
Once I had decided petrol was the way to go I also thought about a 328i/330i, no worse off for being "only" a 4 cyl these days, strong performance and refinement from the 250bhp 2.0ltr and good economy. Though I decided to forgo the little extra practicality of the 3er touring and enjoy a 5dr M135i.
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>> >> I have just bought a new diesel of course.
>>
>> I am sure you did your research and accepted the possibility of the increased cost
>> of running a diesel.
>>
>> I have recently bought a new petrol of course. :-)
>>
I bought my petrol car in 2012...(one upmanship :-)
Edit : no doubt all diesel car drivers are going to contribute substantially to cover the COE's £2B NI shortfall..
Last edited by: madf on Thu 16 Mar 17 at 13:37
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www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/98747/diesel-ban-new-toxins-tax-could-charge-diesel-cars-20-to-enter-uk
We might see a trend of diminishing number of diesel cars in UK roads. It would be interesting to see what will happen to SUVs. It might also force drivers not to buy cars larger than what they really need.
Previously in this forum I debated that taxing based on CO2 is fundamentally wrong as CO2 is used by trees for photosynthesis and release O2. So, taxing against NOx seems right step (IMHO). However, changing goalpost is not right.
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>> Previously in this forum I debated that taxing based on CO2 is fundamentally wrong as
>> CO2 is used by trees for photosynthesis and release O2. So, taxing against NOx seems
>> right step (IMHO). However, changing goalpost is not right.
And if we produce more CO2 than the trees can photosynthesise?
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>> And if we produce more CO2 than the trees can photosynthesise?
Just plant more trees :-)
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I am working on the assumption that at the very worst Euro 6 and probably Euro 5 diesels will be OK for a while, possibly even until somebody decides that it is really petrol or power station emissions that are the problem.
Most diesel car miles in the UK must be Euro 5 which came in from 2009. Euro 6 was only mandated from Sept 2015 IIRC. But there is still a huge number of pre-2009 diesels in daily use.
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People are vilifying the Diesel engine for being dirty and uneconomical, but that's the Governments fault! The Diesel engine was designed to be the cleanest, non-polluting engine of the times, if we put the right fuel in it! Mr Diesel invented the engine to run on Peanut oil, greedy Petrol co's and Governments converted it to heavy Oil consumption to bolster their profits, and now they are trying to tax them off the roads. The world will suffer if this engine is allowed to die! - put it back on bio-fuels!
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Has anyone heard any more about a 'scrappage scheme'?
My Astra 1.3CDTI estate was first registered in Feb 2007 and, I believe it was one of the last diesels not to be fitted with a dpf - I considered this to be a good thing at the time as dpfs were gaining a bad reputation. I've no idea what Euro rating it has, but I suspect it may be considered as one of the 'undesirables'.
I don't do a high enough mileage to warrant a diesel now, so a replacement petrol car would be fine - and the rumoured £3000 scrappage is about twice as much as the Astra is worth. The only thing is that a crack is starting to appear across the windscreen ..... and the tyres will need replacing by Christmas and ....... what next? I don't really want to blow too much money on a car that is destined for the knackers yard.
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Looks like its on hold.
My sceptical side thinks they are holding out for any downturn in the economy before it's launched so they can use it to increase consumer spending.
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The way they spoke about the LEZ this morning has got me worried, from our discussions on here I thought my 10 year old TDi might be ok, now seems anything over 4 years is in for the charge, plus in all of the interviews none of them mentioned including older petrols as well it all focused on diesels.
Although this will affect central London at the moment I can see it expanding, I'm on the very edge of a London borough near the boarder with Kent and yet we have signs at the entrances to many of our local roads displaying the warning that 'you are entering a LEZ'.
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>> The way they spoke about the LEZ this morning has got me worried, from our
>> discussions on here I thought my 10 year old TDi might be ok, now seems
>> anything over 4 years is in for the charge, plus in all of the interviews
>> none of them mentioned including older petrols as well it all focused on diesels.
The charge will apply to petrol vehicles that do not meet Euro 4 standards (2005) and diesel vehicles that do not meet Euro 6 standards. (2014)
Except black cabs and buses of course. Which as well know are the real source of the local Nox.
The worse street for Nox is Oxford Street, banned to all but Buses and cabs.
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>> I've no idea what Euro rating it has, but I suspect it may be considered as one of the 'undesirables'.
EU4 applied from Jan 2005 so it must be that.
I'm in trouble with my old Merc too - that's only EU3. Same situation as you though - the car is close to worthless anyway so if a good scrappage deal came along that would be most welcome! I've really no idea what to replace it with though - nothing "grabs" me at all.
Last edited by: Bill Payer on Wed 5 Apr 17 at 12:08
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There is some suggestion that diesel owners should be "helped" by the government as previous governments (Blair and Brown) encouraged diesel usage.
However I have already ducked out of diesel, when I bought the M135i I considered 125/325/330/335ds etc though avoided them as I saw the writing on the wall for diesel cars - so why should I pay through my taxes to "help" someone who hasn't had the same foresight? I am not alluding to any of you guys at all BTW, rather I am making a general point of principal.
It's rather like the VW etc "dieselgate" scandal and the suggestion that VAG owners should be compensated, to the contrary they have been paying lower RFL and BiK than they should have done and would have done in an equivalent car from another manufacturer; and it can be argued have not been paying their fair share into the exchequer so if anything it's the rest of us who will have accordingly been paying that little bit more who should be compensated.
Rant over ...
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There's a good article by Steve Cropley in today's Autocar about diesels.
He thinks Euro 6 compliant engines should be OK, and those that come out well in the new-style emissions tests will be even better. He reminded me of something I'd forgotten - that diesel cars sale are necessary to keep manufacturers' average statistics for CO2 levels (as opposed to NOx) down.
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>> He thinks Euro 6 compliant engines should be OK, and those that come out well
>> in the new-style emissions tests will be even better. He reminded me of something I'd
>> forgotten - that diesel cars sale are necessary to keep manufacturers' average statistics for CO2
>> levels (as opposed to NOx) down.
>>
Ahhh, but the CO2 targets were set when CO2 was bad! Now the goal posts are moving so I guess we will see a NOx targets
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>> He thinks Euro 6 compliant engines should be OK, >>
In a recent Which? article no Euro 6 diesel met the Euro6 0.1g/km NOx target in their tests.
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My poor little Accord. Two more years it is. It will be fourteen years old by then and I'll have had it eight of them.
Of course, politicians will have changed their minds by then...
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Can't help wondering how much of the current activities on diesels are down to revenue raising rather than pollution.
I appreciate that some city centres need pollution control, I worked in central London recent years but pollution control out as far as the north circular?
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>> Can't help wondering how much of the current activities on diesels are down to revenue
>> raising rather than pollution.
>> I appreciate that some city centres need pollution control, I worked in central London recent
>> years but pollution control out as far as the north circular?
>>
>>
That and current populist agenda.
They should try sorting out container ships first.....
www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-create-pollution-cars-world.html
Of course it is in the Mail so I believe it 110%.
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>>Of course it is in the Mail so I believe it 110%.
Gotta feel sorry for them blithering eejits wot read it, knowlmean.
:o}
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anybody who takes any single newspaper or website as a reliable and unbalanced source of information is misguided, they all have their bias or spin to put on stories or situations
We even have Nick Robinson suggesting the BBC has no obligation to be even handed on brexit.
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>>
>> Of course it is in the Mail so I believe it 110%.
>>
...I think the correct amount to believe the Daily Mail is 52%........
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It is true isn't it that nearly all industrial engines, and farm and haulage and marine engines, and generators are diesel. I don't imagine many of those have the stringent emissions regulations around car engines but I suspect they contribute a significant amount of the undesirable stuff though.
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Tractor emissions have been subject to similar Euro standards to cars for some time. Most now have a DPF and SCR. The days of 1980s Ford tractors belching out clouds of thick black smoke when asked to do any work are long behind us!
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Listening to the Mayor of London this morning doing his phone-in, he is quite adamant that all diesels are bad and he's aim seems to be to rid them of anywhere where he has an influence i.e. right out into Greater London.
He seems to be banking on a scrapage scheme coming in or the Gov to give allowances to drivers of older cars.
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When I ordered my current car, VW had not been found out about diesel emission cheating and all that's become apparent. But I went for a petrol car because:
1. It had lower emissions than the diesel variant of the same car.
2. It therefore had lower BIK charges as a company car
3. But I was also aware it had lower NOx emissions
We all win. It's been a very nice car to be in. Only just done 20k miles too.
Replacement car time... I'd prefer to avoid diesel now. And they still have a 3% BIK charge. The car it therefore pushes me towards is a Passat GTE estate. Someone tell me why that is crazy even if I never or rarely charge it. The tax is less than half other cars and the meddling chancellor changed the BIK system so you pay tax on the highest value between BIK or tax on the cash allowance (whichever is greater)... unless the car emits less than 75g/km of CO2.
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I bought my petrol Jaguar X type s/h for non business use so BIK was not involved.
It was bought as I believed a petrol car was less complicated and less likely to give problems.
Time will tell.
I am a low mileage user and fortunately fuel consumption and range are not a concern to me.
I have just looked at Autotrader for any X types less than 10 years old.
400 diesels and just 24 petrol version.
I am guessing that most were business buys.
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I read somewhere that diesel registrations were the highest ever in March - over 250K. I know it was a record month overall, but there's still a lot of diesels being sold.
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I doubt if the vast majority of diesel buyers know or care about the down side of diesel ownership, the " My garage says I have killed my DPF with short runs to the shops, what is a DPF?" type questions on forums indicate that. We who have an interest in motoring matters are a minority.
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Missed the edit by miles. :-)
I read recently of someone complaining bitterly because he didn't know his car required Adblue until the warning light came on and he took it to the dealer who charged £70 to top it up!
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 7 Apr 17 at 11:22
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My penultimate company car was an A4 Avant 2.0 TDI "Ultra" 163PS which had a 12 litre AdBlue reservoir that required topping up around every 6,000 miles. There was no level indicator on the dash, or in the computer anywhere, so you were completely reliant on the dash warning which then gave you 1,000 miles to fill the AdBlue tank, or the car would stop running, and require plugging in to the Audi dealer's diagnostic equipment to get it running again. 1,000 miles for me then could have been a couple of day's worth of use - not a lot of notice when you are busy.
It would be good to be able to see the level through a computer menu or a gauge, or even a visible reservoir so that I could check and top up alongside screenwash and other fluids.
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>>It would be good to be able to see the level through a computer menu or a gauge,
>> or even a visible reservoir so that I could check and top up alongside screenwash and other fluids.
>>
It appears that the addition of AdBlue tank is a quick fix hence things like sticking the tank where they can. Ah, lets use the previous spare well well and move the gunk can.
All very Heath Robinson.
I hope the next significant upgrade will incorporate a proper system :-(
I suspect it will not change re your 1000 mile alert but filling station may start to stock AdBlue.
I wish there was a proper level indicator for screenwash rather than a simple "empty" alert.
In the winter having auto headlamp wash I have to keep the tank topped up.
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but filling station may
>> start to stock AdBlue.
I think many do already?
>> I wish there was a proper level indicator for screenwash rather than a simple "empty"
>> alert.
>> In the winter having auto headlamp wash I have to keep the tank topped up.
>>
Is there not the rubber tube incorporated into the lid, they aren't great but better than nothing.
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>> >>It would be good to be able to see the level through a computer menu
>> or a gauge,
Having had a thought i want to say that the new transits have some type of gauge on electronic dashboard menu. Can't remember exactly, right now, what though.
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>> I wish there was a proper level indicator for screenwash rather than a simple "empty" alert.
All my Vauxhalls that have had check control (a system that tells you a bulb is out, fluid levels etc) gives a message that the fluid level is getting low. With my current Astra that has a 2½ litre screen wash bottle, the low level warning message comes on with approx. ½ litre still left in the tank.
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>> My penultimate company car was an A4 Avant 2.0 TDI "Ultra" 163PS which had a 12 litre AdBlue reservoir
The 2.0 diesel A4's (current model) now have a 12 litre AdBlue tank as the default but can have 24 litre as no cost option. Fuel tank is also a measly 40 litres unless you opt for the upgrade which again is free.
Has to be something to do with vehicle tests for emissions based on assumed weight, e.g. when tanks full.
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>> Has to be something to do with vehicle tests for emissions based on assumed weight,
>> e.g. when tanks full.
>>
I agree. I suspect it's the same thinking that has seen spare wheels disappear from many cars as well. An easy way to lose 15-20kg which helps with the tests.
The coding of the car's systems to stop the engine should the AdBlue run out is purely legislative as well. The AdBlue doesn't actually go anywhere near the engine, and nothing depends on it. It is injected into the exhaust to trigger a catalytic process which reduces NOx emissions. Running out has no detrimental effect on the engine, or performance.
It's symbolic of what has happened to diesel engines over the past decade or so. We had common rail injection, dual mass flywheels and VNT turbos that transformed performance and responsiveness, increased efficiency, and cut NVH levels to a level that only the most fervent anti-diesel obsessive would complain about. Everything since then however seems to be adding further complexity and usage limitations, and increasing the scope for big bills as things get older, but not delivering any performance or economy benefit.
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My understanding is if you run out of AdBlue the engine does not stop. But it won't restart after the ignition is turned off. Still could be really inconvenient. I'd carry one of the small containers with the inbuilt funnel in my car.
I'm looking at cars as it happens. The new BIK rules mean you might pay a lot more tax than you used to if you go for a low priced fuel efficient car. So you might as well go for something nice ;-)
But the BIK rules means the Passat GTE could work out a lot cheaper each month by some margin. So maybe my next car will be a plugin hybrid.... Not sure. Need to try one first.
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>> It's symbolic of what has happened to diesel engines over the past decade or so.
We had common rail injection, dual mass flywheels and VNT turbos that transformed performance and responsiveness, increased efficiency, and cut NVH levels to a level that only the most fervent anti-diesel obsessive would complain about. Everything since then however seems to be adding further complexity and usage limitations, and increasing the scope for big bills as things get older, but not delivering any performance or economy benefit.
>>
I agree totally !!
Aside from the NoX implications for diesel cars being a good reason not to run a diesel currently, I also would rather be stuck with a sophisticated petrol engine out of warranty than a contemporary diesel.
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>> My penultimate company car was an A4 Avant 2.0 TDI "Ultra" 163PS which had a
>> 12 litre AdBlue reservoir that required topping up around every 6,000 miles.
Same on wife's Tiguan, but she doesn't do many miles and I just drop a 5 litre container full of AdBlue in every now and then.
If doing a higher mileage the pain with a 12L tank is it would be quite marginal to wait until you could put 10 litres in to avoid repeated faffing about.
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In many ways that's how things are right now and how they should be, a car should just be something you can get into and use at any time, a "white" good. Driving should take effort but not the day to day use & continued reliability of the car.
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My (diesel) Transporter Shuttle comes to the end of its lease in October. Do I buy it in or start again with a new model? Either way, if I want/need that type of vehicle there is only one choice of propulsion: diesel! So it is a bit rich of politicians to punitively tax an engine where there is no alternative.
Note also that current BiK rules STILL favour diesel cars over petrol. Give with one and and take with the other!
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>> My (diesel) Transporter Shuttle comes to the end of its lease in October. Do I
>> buy it in or start again with a new model?
Unless you're likely to be affected by the extra city tolls then your in an ideal sitiuation if you're leasing, as someone else is carrying the risk. However eventually that's surely going to need to be reflected in leasing costs.
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>> Note also that current BiK rules STILL favour diesel cars over petrol. Give with one and and take with the other!
Are you sure? I did a comparison of a 2.0 diesel A4 estate earlier and a 2.0 TFSI petrol. Same model with S-Tronic gearbox. The petrol model was slightly cheaper overall because:
1. It's a cheaper car
2. The emissions are higher but because of the 3% BIK surcharge for diesels, it as taxed at a 1% lower rate
I did quite well 3 years ago when I got the A3 1.4TFSI with S-Tronic gearbox. Emissions were 109g/km for CO2. And no diesel BIK charge of 3%.
Now the one that looks like a cheaper option for me is a plug-in hybrid. As long as it emits less than 75g/km the new rules for BIK do not apply. But because of the monthly rental I can't add so many options as I could to a diesel version. But the difference in BIK is large.
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hypothetical question! - If a diesel car is run solely on reclaimed Oil (e.g chip-shop oil) is it still classed as a diesel? My friend has just taken over the lease of a "chippy" and has several hundreds of litres a year to dispose of! - just wondering........
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>> hypothetical question! - If a diesel car is run solely on reclaimed Oil (e.g
>> chip-shop oil) is it still classed as a diesel? My friend has just taken over
>> the lease of a "chippy" and has several hundreds of litres a year to dispose
>> of! - just wondering........
>>
What a lovely idea and McDonald HGVs proudly boast that they do just that with the oil from their restaurants.
AFAIK they are still classed as heavy oil users.
I am not sure many modern diesels would like it though!
Quite tempting when 5l can be brought at Asda for £3.80! and if you use under 2,500 litres a year then there is no duty to pay.
Last edited by: Wibble on Sun 9 Apr 17 at 11:24
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Older diesels are fine with it, i used to know a few people who ran mid 90s cars on just about anything that was combustible and was cheap or free. Ran for years like that.
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very interesting! Thanks!
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>> Are you sure? I did a comparison of a 2.0 diesel A4 estate earlier and
>> a 2.0 TFSI petrol. Same model with S-Tronic gearbox. The petrol model was slightly cheaper
>> overall because:
>>
>> 1. It's a cheaper car
>> 2. The emissions are higher but because of the 3% BIK surcharge for diesels, it
>> as taxed at a 1% lower rate
>>
>> I did quite well 3 years ago when I got the A3 1.4TFSI with S-Tronic
>> gearbox. Emissions were 109g/km for CO2. And no diesel BIK charge of 3%.
>>
But doesn't the 2.0 diesel offer better performance (and economy) than the 2.0 petrol (I honestly don't know)? To compare similar performance you normally need to have a larger displacement petrol engine than diesel?
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"But doesn't the 2.0 diesel offer better performance (and economy) than the 2.0 petrol (I honestly don't know)?"
I think that may have been the case some time ago, but not any more. Judging by my first two Octavia vRSs, they're about the same (2.0 diesel followed by 2.0 petrol): the thrid one was a 217 bhp petrol and was quicker than ether of the first two.
I think the A3 TFSI has 190 bhp - probably because if they put the GTI /vRS engine in there nobody would buy S3s.
A VAG diesel is more economical than the equivalent petrol, but petrol engines are getting more and more efficient. SWMBO's Audi A1 - 1.4 TFSI petrol - is slightlty more economical (45 mpg in mixed use) than my diesel Volvo V60 (43 mpg). It's a few years ago now, but I think the diesel Octavia averaged about 48 mpg, and the petrol ones about 38.
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For the same capacity diesel ultimately offers better economy though petrol ultimately offers better performance, though the gap has closed both ways in recent years.
Though there is more to it than that, diesels have loads of low down torque and petrols offer a wide powerband, smoother, crisper, free reving and can sound great.
For me 125ds/330ds etc offer a fantastic blend of economy and performance though I am concerned about the complexity of contemporary diesels, and am happy to sacrifice a little in economy for power, character and sound. So petrol it is.
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>>For the same capacity diesel ultimately offers better economy
Arguable. It offers more miles for the same volume of fuel. "better economy" is a bit more complicated than that.
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>> more miles for the same volume of fuel>>
Is surely the relevant definition of "better economy". Though there are of course numerous other factors.
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I think that many people believe that more mpg means better economy, but it isn't true and never has been. Purchase price, running costs, fuel costs, resale price, taxes, levies, longevity etc. etc. are all part of the equation.
I'm a little surprised that you're one of them.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 9 Apr 17 at 23:58
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>>
>> I'm a little surprised that you're one of them.
>>
You missed the last sentence of my last post perhaps.
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>> You missed the last sentence of my last post perhaps.
I did. Sorry.
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But to further complicate things... if you're looking at a company provided vehicle a petrol's lower BIK could swing it. Poorer MPG granted. But lower BIK can compensate.
The BHP/PS figures for the engines I compared were the same. Diesel had more torque and better MPG.
AS for BIK, for me at least and many others, the changes mean there is no incentive to go for a cheap and low CO2 emitting vehicle if you have a decent cash benefit alternative.... 'cos HMRC will tax you on the cash benefit you don't get despite going for the car.
Hence me asking for a demo of a Passat GTE Estate soon. ULEV are treated differently but I need to double check.
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It's a long time since BiK was a factor for me and the last company car I had was a 2007 Focus ST at 224g/km as I recall so I was not too concerned then.
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Emissions of 224g/km now would mean being taxed at 37% of the list price. Back in 2007 it was 31% so still high.
If you instead had a car emitting 50g/km or less then you'd be taxed at 9% this year. A lot less tax going to HMRC :-)
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The person from another place who pontificates on Saturdays in one of the more expensive papers keeps saying things like "Don't even think about a diesel"!
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I thought about 'going diesel', a V60 (basically a Focus) or a Rav4, but kicked the idea into the long grass, man.
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When selecting my current car I had initially thought I"d go for a diesel because emissions we lower. I'd have also not thought about a auto/DSG because emissions on those are usually higher and list price is higher.
But the Audi A3 with a 1.4 petrol engine has low emissions and no penalty for a DSG so to speak. So I tried it, liked it and then got one. Saved me in tax paid. But I now would say I'd prefer to go for a petrol (turbo of course) this time. I do think you can tell it's got a lighter engine at the front when driving.
But I will have to try out a plugin hybrid to see how I get on. Saves the environment a bit and saves on BIK/tax :-) A win-win situation? It will be a faff charging it mind and as a petrol only car it will not have great mpg.
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>> I'd have also not thought about a auto/DSG because emissions on those
>> are usually higher and list price is higher.
>>
The M135i auto is more economical and lower CO2 than the manual as is the case for many BMW and MB autos.
>> I do think you can tell it's
>> got a lighter engine at the front when driving.
>>
Definitely, many petrol cars are lighter than the diesel equivalent and it can be felt, particularly if it is a FWD with the engines weight above or in front of the front wheels.
>> Saves the environment a bit and saves on BIK/tax :-) A win-win situation? It
>> will be a faff charging it mind and as a petrol only car it will
>> not have great mpg.
>>
It's a bit of a con, broadly the PHEV type tech achieves great "economy" on local journeys though on long trips is little better than the std version unless you stop for a three course meal every couple of hours to charge it.
Also the embedded carbon is still an issue if you want to look at the whole life picture.
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>> >> I'd have also not thought about a auto/DSG because emissions on those
>> >> are usually higher and list price is higher.
>> >>
>>
>> The M135i auto is more economical and lower CO2 than the manual as is the case for many BMW and MB autos.
>
Faster as well. 4.9 to 60 in the vs 5.1 for the manual. The M140i also has a two tenths advantage as an automatic.
I'd also question BMW's manual transmission standards nowadays as well. Firstly, they have an irritating habit of installing a delay valve in the clutch hydraulic line of their manual cars, which restricts the flow of fluid on pedal release to dampen the clutch release action and protect the clutch. What is also does is rob the pedal of any feel or consistency. I used to struggle to do consistently smooth 1st to 2nd changes in my old 320d even after 60,000 miles of familiarity.
Secondly, I don't think their manual transmissions are particularly robust. Mine used to suffer from clutch judder first thing on a cold morning, and the clutch would become horribly abrupt and snatchy after more than a few minutes in stop start traffic. My brother-in-law ended up successfully rejecting his 320d M Sport because of persistent gearbox and clutch problems, and colleagues at work had clutch issues on theirs too. The automatics seem much more reliable.
Last edited by: DP on Tue 11 Apr 17 at 09:31
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>> I'd also question BMW's manual transmission standards nowadays as well. Firstly, they have an irritating
>> habit of installing a delay valve in the clutch hydraulic line
I've come to the conclusion that many of the clutches fitted to turbo diesels with what, compared to higher revving petrol engined cars, is massive torque are essentially not fit for purpose. Clutch slip unrelated to the amount of lining wear is very common on some makes.
A DMF is also needed to protect the clutch, crank and gearbox, and then presumably BMW decided the restrictor was needed to protect the DMF!
I have basically given up on them and bought an automatic - the Outlander I have now has a 6 speed Jatco transaxle plus fluid torque converter. It's much nicer to drive than the manual it replaced, and seems to be more economical.
I think you mentioned numb electrically assisted steering on your BMW? That also afflicts the Outlander 3; the steering is noticeably deader than the previous hydraulically assisted model; not to the point where you can't put it where you want it, but that the feel isn't there in the same way was very noticeable on switching from one to the other.
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>> Faster as well. 4.9 to 60 in the vs 5.1 for the manual. The M140i
>> also has a two tenths advantage as an automatic.
4.7/4.9 and 4.6/4.8 are commonly quoted for the 135 and 140 though Chris Harris recorded 4.49 in a 135 auto, a 2012 car which was marginally less powerful on paper.
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>>Saves the environment a bit and saves on BIK/tax :-)
The tax I understand but you haven't fallen for the environmental bullshine have you? It is the new Global Warming and Climate Change taxation excuse now they have gone quiet.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 10 Apr 17 at 18:02
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Although there's still a fuel economy advantage for diesel, I believe modern petrol engines have made a dent in this advantage.
My in-laws have a Fiesta 1.0 Ecoboost which, despite an almost exclusive diet of short / round-the-houses use, never returns less than 40 mpg. On a recent holiday down to the South West, it averaged 50 mpg. These figures, while not quite small diesel standards, are not a world away either, and the petrol engine is quieter, lighter, and doesn't have the Heath Robinson emissions countermeasures to worry about. Also the fuel is slightly cheaper.
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I think petrols have caught up with diesels.
I've not fallen for the environment thing with PHEV but it will be better than a diesel for those around me. Maybe I won't like it but the BIK savings are large.
So compare a Passat Estate GTE against a Passat Estate GT DSG 150PS diesel. This current tax year the diesel will be taxed at 26% of list price and the GTE at 9%. So call the diesel one £33k, the tax to be paid will be £286pm at 40%. For the GTE at £41k it will be £123.
You're never going to get the official mpg but charge it up before long journeys and you will get more than the diesel. I hope. But a lot of my driving could be covered for a few days on a single charge.
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I posted about my leap from diesel to petrol back in July, here:
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=22916&m=508747&v=e
I have to say, I don't so far regret it.
I'd anticipated the tide changing against diesel, and the figures (now that BIK is not an issue) worked for me before the purchase, and are still working for me after.
The 2.0 X1 Xdrive auto is £1000 cheaper in petrol than diesel form (like-for-like spec) which pays for quite a lot of the difference in overall fuel cost during ownership. Though I haven't looked recently, I suspect the residual value may have adjusted somewhat ;-)
The last tankful was 42.7mpg overall, in mixed driving (one long return journey and some pootling around - and pretty heavily laden). Not bad for a 2 litre 4WD auto.
I'm a fairly relaxed driver (not slow; simply not on-off) so have always had reasonable mpg. My figures are considerably better than HJ's "Real MPG" figures.
The last car, a manual diesel Sportage, didn't do much better overall than that (though was somewhat better pootling about than the X1. SWMBOs Smart, at mid 50s mpg, suffices for that now).
With the added advantage of it being a little more quiet, I can't say I'd want to switch back now.
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When I compared an Audi A4 Avant diesel to the petrol (same spec) the diesel was more as a company car because: (!) higher list price and so impact on BIK, (2) higher BIK charge because of the 3% and (3) slightly higher monthly rental.
Of the two I'd have probably gone for the diesel because the difference was marginal to be honest and you'd get better MPG. But I do like petrol turbo engines. My first was in 1999 (Golf) and followed by my first Passat in 2000 (1.8T Sport).
If I didn't have the option of a company car, I'd be tempted by a second hand Audi petrol turbo, maybe an A5.
And it's an A5 Sportback I'd have liked in 2011. And the new one now. Sums don't add up. I can have one and afford it. But would a Passat GTE not do all I need and have lots of options and cost me less.
Trading down to a cheap/small/efficient car used to be an option. It still is but the new BIK rules mean you will still pay BIK at a high rate if you have a good cash allowance option.
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>> www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/miscellaneous/2017-04/new-gbp2000-diesel-scrappage-scheme-set-to-be-announced/
>>
Well, it's wrong already - just for starters.
The piece is dated 20th April and says "to be announced this week".
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Not sure how the legality of a central government scrapage scheme that is dependent on your financial circumstances or where you live would operate.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 23 Apr 17 at 22:39
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>> Not sure how the legality of a central government scrapage scheme that is dependent on
>> your financial circumstances or where you live would operate.
>>
Agreed, and it also discriminates against petrol drivers ...
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Nothing likely to be announced as gov policy now election has been called and Parliamentary session ended next week.
What might be in manifesto is another question.
Provided legislation, whether primary or secondary, can be suitably worded restrictions by income and place are possible.
To qualify the vehicle must be:
pre Euro 5
owned for more than 6 months before dd/mm/yy
Keeper must live an a qualfying postcode for more than 6 months before dd/mm/yy
additionally, keeper may not be Higher Rate taxpayer.
There are precedents in incentives for housing.
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How's the trip going in the us brompt?
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I've heard that a possible diesel scrappage scheme is in the air
I might take advantage depending on how much is on offer, did anyone on here use the last one? if so how does it affect the deals the garage might give you on top of the scheme?
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OK, looks like it's going to be for 2005 and older cars, so that rules me out.
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>> OK, looks like it's going to be for 2005 and older cars, so that rules
>> me out.
You could fix the problem in a heartbeat in London. The worse road for NOX is Oxford street, and only buses and taxis are allowed down there. Ban them from the roads, problem solved
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May be about to buy a new diesel. We've been looking to get out of SWMBO's Cooper S convertible as it no longer suits our needs from a practicality point of view (i.e. it has no practicality at all). We've been really happy with the MINI experience, so would like to stay with the brand, and the Clubman fits the bill really nicely. Started off looking at petrols, but just been offered an almost too good to ignore deal on a new, unregistered Cooper D Clubman that's in stock, and is the exact spec we want. BMW 2.0 diesel with 150 bhp. Sorely tempted to go in tomorrow and sign up.
Last edited by: DP on Sat 6 May 17 at 18:10
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>> Cooper D Clubman
>>
Probably a nice car though they look pretty awful from the rear ...
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>> >> Cooper D Clubman
>> >>
>>
>> Probably a nice car though they look pretty awful from the rear ...
>>
>>
>>
It is incredibly colour sensitive car. Looks best in the darker colours IMO. This is the colour we are looking at:
[url]i.auto-bild.de/ir_img/1/2/9/0/4/0/5/Mini-Clubman-1200x800-5d2f32bd5835ab5f.jpg[/url]
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>> >> Cooper D Clubman
>> >>
>>
>> Probably a nice car though they look pretty awful from the rear ...
>>
>>
>>
It is incredibly colour sensitive car. Looks best in the darker colours IMO. This is the one we are looking at
Http://www.hetautomeisje.nl/wp-content/uploads/New-MINI-Cooper-Clubman
.jpg
Last edited by: DP on Sat 6 May 17 at 18:33
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It looks like kim Jong whatsisface having been smacked in the mouth! A truly awful looker.
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>> It looks like kim Jong whatsisface having been smacked in the mouth! A truly awful
>> looker.
>>
Haha each to their own. We quite like it.
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Test drove one of those earlier in the year. Really nice car and a bit different from the average hatchback. Seemed very well put together and drove really well to me. Looks OK to me and would be more than happy to own one. I'd go for it if I were you.
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We were both very impressed with the Cooper S we drove today. Rides nicely, handles tidily, and has a very smart interior. Rear legroom is good, even with the driver's seat comfortable for me (6ft 1) and the boot space is also good. It's a bit different, which we both liked. I quite like the styling. I can see why some don't. Didn't find the 2.0 petrol engine to be anything special to be honest. Despite similar on paper performance to our current 1.6 turbo Cooper S, it felt nowhere near as snappy, and certainly didn't sound as good. I think a torquey diesel will suit the generally more laid back nature of the thing.
Our convertible has been a joy to own. Apart from a roof rattle (sorted with no hassle under warranty) it has been completely faultless, and still puts a smile on both our faces every time we drive it. Sadly, it's just too impractical. We will miss it though.
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>>. Didn't find the 2.0 petrol engine to be anything special to be honest.
>>
That's the B48, basically 2/3 of the B58 in your M140, I reckon superior when longitudinal in a BMW, in varing outputs depending on model 184bhp -20i, 224bhp -25i, 252bhp -30i etc ...
Last edited by: Hard Cheese on Sun 7 May 17 at 00:30
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>> That's the B48, basically 2/3 of the B58 in your M140, I reckon superior when
>> longitudinal in a BMW, in varing outputs depending on model 184bhp -20i, 224bhp -25i, 252bhp
>> -30i etc ...
>>
Yep, the new modular engine concept, also available as a little 1.2 and 1.5 three pot, as used in the i8 among other things. Apparently they all share the same bore spacing and so can be built on the same production line. Clever.
I think for me I was expecting an improvement over the N18 in our current Cooper S and came away feeling a bit disappointed. The N18 is great fun. It's one of those eager, fizzy engines that responds so keenly to the throttle (amazingly so for a forced induction unit) and punches way beyond its size. The B48 did everything the N18 does, but with a level of decorum and refinement that for me took a little bit of the fun out of things.
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>> Yep, the new modular engine concept, also available as a little 1.2 and 1.5 three
>> pot, as used in the i8 among other things. Apparently they all share the same
>> bore spacing and so can be built on the same production line. Clever.
>>
Yes, three diesels and three petrols, all with the same bore and stroke, same 500cc capacity per cylinder, same bore spacing etc, common blocks, and many shared components.
>> I think for me I was expecting an improvement over the N18 in our current
>> Cooper S >>
The Prince engine is well respected, the 118i (and 2015 120i) with this engine is pretty nippy and economical.
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I quite like it too DP. Dares to be a bit different, and that's always a good thing ( in my eyes anyway )
If you like it, want it and can afford it, then why the heck not?
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Ole woman sez it reminds 'er of dem motors with bits of wood down the sides.
quotazioni-auto-usate.motorionline.com/foto-modelli/mini-clubman-cooper-d.jpg
8-)
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>> Ole woman sez it reminds 'er of dem motors with bits of wood down the sides.
I think that's the point - hence the split rear doors. Just not called a Countryman this time around.
At least the current model got rid of the silly 'suicide door' on one side. And the wrong side in the UK of course.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sat 6 May 17 at 21:23
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One could always retro-fit some Ash woodwork to make ones Mini a proper Woodie:
www.morriswoodwork.co.uk/
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>>Sorely tempted to go in tomorrow and sign up.
If it was what I wanted, then I wouldn't hesitate. The only risk I can see is its resale value if the publicity continues in the current vein.
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I drove only diesels between 1992 and 2010.
Would I buy one now? Definitely not, VED and fuel duty are likely to rise in the near future by enough to wipe out any cost savings and resale values will fall. Quite apart from the health issues, our children's future was one of the reasons put forward by those who wanted to remain in the EU, yet people seem rather blase about pumping whatever poisons the fuel contains into the air.
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Looks like a van with windows!
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Well I'm still totally confused..
My Golf was in for it's MoT this morning.. started checking out the GTis and GTD's while I was waiting, would love to buy a new MK7.5 but my finances just can't stretch that far right now, looks like I might try for a 6 month old car instead if the numbers add up.
BUT I'm still unsure about sticking with diesel, for me it's a way of driving rather than overall economics, found the looks of the GTDs to be a little more understated over the nice but flash GTis.
If only I had a crystal-ball to see whether there will be any retrospective tax hikes or the like that would make me regret not jumping to petrol.
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"The only risk I can see is its resale value if the publicity continues in the current vein."
If you look quickly at the Telegraph website, the current Matt cartoon portrays a potential buyer looking at a diesel car in the showroom, and the salesman is saying "It's very economical. You can drive from the showroom to the scrappage centre on one tank of fuel".
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I returned my one week rental Focus estate 1.0ltr 3 cyl ( 6 speed so 125 horses) at Alicante late this afternoon, and drove home from Yeadon in my 1.6 Diesel Focus. Admittedly a 2011 model.
The former was a revelation. I never thought I would be impressed by such a small engine, but 4 up, full of luggage, it went really well. Decent acceleration, quiet, refined, great handling and excellent mpg... around 45mpg which included twisting mountain roads in 2nd & 3rd, and cruising in the long legged 6th gear at 140/150kph.
If I were in the market for such a vehicle it would definitely be that tiny petrol engine.
No idea on longevity & reliability, but worth a punt.
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Well, it's done. Drove one on Sunday and liked it a lot. Not quick but effortless, and very long legged. Even the thrashed demonstrator was showing 46 mpg.
Financials worked out so it's done. The car needs to come from another branch and be PDI'd and registered, but we should have it in the next fortnight.
Going to really miss the convertible though. Fun little car that's great on fuel, handles brilliantly and goes like stink. Clubman altogether more grown up.
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Lovely. I hope you enjoy it, I expect you will.
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I remember when this wood trim option was desirable:
ourclassiccars.co.uk/ford-cortina-mk-woody-estate/
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"Wood-effect trim" ... reminds me of when I put some wood-effect Fablon on the dashboard and tops of doors of my Mk 2 Cortina 1600 Super to make it look like a 1600E.
Mind you, it did have a twin choke Weber, stage 2 head, 4 branch manifold, 'Jeff Howe' exhaust system, Kenlowe fan AND a Lumenition fitted.
:-D
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What no Ford genuine plastic fake wood, shoddy! :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 9 May 17 at 07:06
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>> Lovely. I hope you enjoy it, I expect you will.
>>
Thank you. It's got a reg number now, and should be with is mid week.
Going to really miss the convertible. I just used it for a 400 mile trip for work, and did about half of it roof-down. :-)
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>> Going to really miss the convertible. I just used it for a 400 mile trip
>> for work, and did about half of it roof-down. :-)
>>
Perhaps you should have got a 240 convertible rather than the 140 ...
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>>
>> Perhaps you should have got a 240 convertible rather than the 140 ...
>>
I really needed 5 doors and a proper boot, otherwise I would have been tempted. I think the B58 engine would sound flipping fantastic with the roof down.
Practicality is the only reason the Convertible is going as well. We didn't ever envisage using it as a serious family car, but we thought we might at least pile in it on summer days and go down to the coast or out visiting friends and rellies. The reality is not only that the kids have grown, but that they never enjoyed going in the back of it roof down anyway. So we have something that SWMBO can use for work, or I can nick occasionally for work or just for a blast, with all family car use falling to the 140i. Hence why it's just had its first service at 18 months old and has barely done 10k. Pretty hard to justify really, so it has to go.
That said the last time we sold a car we loved so much it was the MX-5 when eldest daughter was on her way.
Moral of this story is don't have kids :-)
Last edited by: DP on Wed 10 May 17 at 12:03
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The wife of a friend of mine had the same experience with her Cooper S Convertible. Thought it would be fun, kids never liked it, and so used it only to & from work.
I borrowed it on occasion. It was a *LOT* of fun and I loved everything about it.
But I'd never have kept my license if I owned it.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 10 May 17 at 12:32
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>>
>> I really needed 5 doors and a proper boot >>
I should have added a ;-)
I fully understand, our kids are pretty grown up, and only two of three living at home now though occasionally we need to take five in a car, and we have a dog, and the 5dr 120i is much more practical than the 3dr 123d was despite being the same size inside; so when it came to a new car it was either a 3er Touring 328i/330i/335i (didn't want a diesel though 330d/335ds were tempting) or a 5dr 1er. I thought about a Golf or A3 though prefer the rear drive and much prefer the BMW interior. I did also think about a Focus estate and saving a few quid and would probably have gone for a 1.5/1.6 180bhp rather than an ST, more subtle, pretty quick and rewarding to drive. I note legacylad's positive comments re the 1.0 125bhp Focus estate and agree fully.
Must say that we use the 120i when taking the dog, haven't taken the dog on a long journey (not really fair on him anyway) since having the M135i so he has not been in it - yet!
I also reckon the E87 (120i) chassis is stiffer than the E81 (123d), and I think this also applies to the F20 5dr v F21 3dr.
A convertible appeals for a few days a year though for me there are too many compromises the rest of the time, if based on a roofed model they are generally heavier, less stiff, much reduced carrying capacity and less secure. I have thought about an early Z4 for fun (instead of a motorbike) though would probably enjoy it less than the 135 ...
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Mrs BB has decided to get shot of her 7-year old diesel S-Max diesel before the bottom drops out of the market for diesels of this age. She barely does 5,000 a year and so a petrol should be preferable.
Top candidate for a replacement is nearly-new BMW 220i Gran Tourer. On the same basic platform as the MINIs. Fwd in a BMW! Shock horror! Some good pre-reg deals out there. We had a drive in a petrol Skoda Kodiak out of interest, but the BMW is far nicer inside and remarkably space efficient, and she neither needs nor wants a 4x4. I 'think' the 220i has a 4-cylinder 1.6 turbo engine, but this sort of information isn't in the BMW brochure - I would have thought that the 'ultimate driving machine' literature would have had this?
I am wary of the 3-cylinder 1.5l BMW/MINI engine as it has already had a recall to replace the crankshaft bearings!
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>>I 'think' the 220i has a 4-cylinder 1.6 turbo engine.......
I believe it is the same two-litre 192bhp twin-turbo unit as in my X1 (2.0i petrol)
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>> >>I 'think' the 220i has a 4-cylinder 1.6 turbo engine.......
>>
>> I believe it is the same two-litre 192bhp twin-turbo unit as in my X1 (2.0i
>> petrol)
>>
Yes, it's a 2.0 B48, not twin turbo though, rather twin scroll turbo, one turbocharger with two exhaust gas channels feeding the turbine.
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...indeed; that should have read "twinpower-turbo".
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>> ...indeed; that should have read "twinpower-turbo".
>>
Indeed ... there are some twin turbo BMWs including the N54 in early 135i/335i/535is etc, the 2.0 diesel 123d, and 3.0 diesel 335d/535d etc. Though today most are twin scroll turbo (Twin Power Turbo), the exceptions include the 125d etc 2.0 224bhp diesel, 335d etc 3.0 300 + bhp diesel (various versions) and the 3.0 S55 in the M3/M4.
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SQ
>> I am wary of the 3-cylinder 1.5l BMW/MINI engine as it has already had a
>> recall to replace the crankshaft bearings!
==
BMW have confused lately, I think you mean 220i Active Tourer, this is on the Mini platform and has always had the 2.0 B48 since launch in 2014 IIRC. Likewise the rear drive 220i coupe/conv has the B48 though the 1-Series did not have a 120i version from '11 to '15 then in '15 the 1.6 turbo 4cyl 118i became the 120i and the 118i adopted the 1.5 3cyl B38; before in '16 the 120i adopting the 2.0 4cyl B48 as per the 220is.
The 1.6 Prince engine is well rated, reckon a '11 - '14' 118i or '15 120i with that engine would be a nice car.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 13 May 17 at 17:38
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>> I think you mean 220i Active Tourer.....
>>
If it's replacing an S-Max, then it probably is the Gran Tourer - effectively the longer, 7-seat but still FWD version of the Active Tourer.
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SQ again!!
>> If it's replacing an S-Max, then it probably is the Gran Tourer - effectively the
>> longer, 7-seat but still FWD version of the Active Tourer.
Of course you may be right. I was thinking Gran Tourer as in 3-Series GT though that's Gran Turismo ...
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 13 May 17 at 17:39
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Reading the above posts, It'd be less complicated just to stay with the S-Max!
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I cant believe BM now do so many models.
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Yes it's a 220i Gran Tourer we're looking for. It's a longer 7-seat version of the Active Tourer. The rear-most seats will see little service but will be a bonus if needed. Most of the time they will be folded down for a big boot.
The Active and Gran Tourers can be had as a 218i which is the 1.5 3-cylinder used in MINIs and has had the crankshaft troubles (as I understand it!)
The Gran Tourer is a little smaller than the S-Max inside but seems big enough for us and is usefully narrower and should be easier to park!
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...the 2 litre petrol engine is pretty good.
Now the X1 is run in, I'm averaging almost exactly 40mpg on the (only very-slightly optimistic) trip in mixed driving (though with few very short runs). This is over the last 1000 miles or so.
I'm not heavy-footed, but neither do I dawdle. Not bad for a two-litre petrol automatic 4WD, and it has the benefit of being a bit quieter (and cheaper) than the equivalent diesel-engined version.
(There is ample power and torque, but I suspect having an auto helps with the adjustment from years of driving manual diesels, particularly as regards torque delivery).
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Our next car won't be diesel.The one we have now supposed to very clean latest diesel technology .
I used to drive on L.P.G.gas why that is promoted not more I don't know.I will be looking at Petrol Hybrid in two years time or full electric.
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I have my fingers crossed of course (well I would have were I superstitious) but I'll probably have mine for 6-8 years if spared, and unless it is taxed or legislated against beyond bearing.
We all live in fear of expensive failures but the last one had no problems in 50,000 miles and this has the same type of engine minus the MIVEC, albeit also plus whatever Euro6 implies.
It's a lottery, but I have a warranty until the end of 2021 and I trust the Mitsubishi engineering more than BMW's or VAG's for example.
We will probably "evolve" into owning a plug-in hybrid via the replacement of the Popemobile at some point.
The diesel emissions thing is just the latest meme,. What get's measured gets managed, even if nobody can continue that rigour into what the effects actually are, or wants properly to consider the alternatives. Mass travel and commuting will always be a polluter.
If house prices were 3-4 times salary instead of 7 or 8, not so many people will need to commute 50 or 60 miles a day; get more on to public transport, et cetera et cetera - I don't mean to say those two particular factors are the issue, I'm just trying to illustrate that there are a lot of moving parts. 70 million people in the UK and 7 billion globally will have a big effect on the environment, regardless, and we are all going to die of something.
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Bit on the wireless today bout LPG. FF to 24:30 mins: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08q30rx#play
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>> >> SQ again!!
>> >>
>>
>> SQ?
>>
That's when Dave doesn't approve of the way you have presented your post, usually you have quoted more of a previous post than he is prepared to allow.
He can get quite obsessive about it so unless you feel very strongly its best to go along with it.
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>> He can get quite obsessive about it so unless you feel very strongly its best
>> to go along with it.
And if you do feel strongly about it, it's still best to go along with it.
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"And if you do feel strongly about it, it's still best to go along with it"
It's not something that ever worries me on the HJ forum - probably because I'm not techno enough to know whether long quotes are taking up valuable bandwidth / cyberspace/ RAM / EWE or whatever.
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>> The 1.6 Prince engine is well rated, reckon a '11 - '14' 118i or '15
>> 120i with that engine would be a nice car.
>>
It has a few well documented issues, mostly around severe carbon build up in the combustion chambers (common to a lot of DI petrol engines), and the odd noisy timing chain. Later, post 2011 versions are improved, but still not perfect.
The engine is a joint development between BMW and the PSA Group who refer to it as 'THP' in various performance oriented Citroens and Peugeots. In the RCZ, Peugeot have squeezed an impressive 270PS, and 243 lb/ft at under 2000 RPM out of it. Crazy figures for a 1.6 litre engine.
Makes 184PS in our Mini and goes like a stabbed rat, while never dipping below 30 mpg however hard it's driven. It's got real mid range guts and feels like a far bigger engine. 6th gear at 70 mph going uphill through the Stokenchurch cutting on the M40, four up, it will push you convincingly back into the seat when you open the taps, with no downchange needed.
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If you are looking to change car fair enough, but don't think the justification of buying a new BMW as against losing a possible few hundred quid on a 7 year old diesel really stacks up!!
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>> If you are looking to change car fair enough, but don't think the justification of
>> buying a new BMW as against losing a possible few hundred quid on a 7
>> year old diesel really stacks up!!
Women can do man maths too.
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She thinks it's time for a change, and neither of us have ever had a BMW before, so who am I to get in the way?
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>> Volvo have (I think) now said that's yer lot for diesel. No more diesel engines.
Which is rich considering they don't offer a petrol engine in the UK or europe (except the hugely expensive, and hugely over endowed with HP hybrid, which has yet to appear in the UK)
So at the mount, if you want a V90 its diesel or nuffink. Its pushing me towards a petrol 5 series touring if I can get my hands on one for a test drive
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The diesel hysteria seems easily whipped up at the moment, he said it "could" be. Then he said that didn't mean they'd stop with this engine..
From ANE
May 17, 2017 09:25 CET -- UPDATED: May 17 14:19 CET - adds Volvo statement
BERLIN -- Volvo's latest generation of diesel engines could be its last because the cost of reducing emissions of nitrogen oxide is becoming too expensive, CEO Hakan Samuelsson was quoted as saying on Wednesday.
"From today's perspective, we will not develop any more new generation diesel engines," Samuelsson told German newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung in an interview.
However, a Volvo spokesman said on Wednesday that Samuelsson had been discussing options rather than a firm plan to stop the further development of diesel engines.
Samuelsson later said in a statement emailed to Reuters he believed diesel would still play a crucial role in the next few years in helping the company meet targets to reduce emissions of carbon dioxide, being more fuel-efficient than petrol engines.
"We have just launched a brand new generation of petrol and diesel engines, highlighting our commitment to this technology. As a result, a decision on the development of a new generation of diesel engines is not required," he said.
In the FAZ interview Samuelsson said Volvo would continue improving the current range, first introduced in 2013, to meet future emissions standards, with production likely to go on until about 2023.
And until 2020 he said diesel would be needed to help meet carbon dioxide emission limits set by the European Union, but after that other regulations would come into play, with the costs of making engines compliant with ever higher anti-pollution standards meaning it would no longer be worth it.
Instead, Volvo will invest in the electric and hybrid cars, with its first pure electric model due on the market in 2019.
"We have to recognize that Tesla has managed to offer such a car for which people are lining up. In this area, there should also be space for us, with high quality and attractive design," Samuelsson said.
Samuelsson has previously said that tighter emissions rules will push up the price of diesel-engined cars to the point where plug-in hybrids will become an attractive alternative.
The average carbon dioxide emissions limit for European carmakers' fleets will need to fall from 130 grams per kilometer to 95 grams in 2021, forcing them to invest more in exhaust emissions technology.
Diesel cars account for over 50 percent of all new registrations in Europe, making the region by far the world's biggest diesel market. Volvo, owned by China's Geely, sells 90 percent of its XC 90 SUVs in Europe with diesel engines.
The scandal over Volkwagen's cheating of U.S. environmental tests to mask emissions of nitrogen oxides, which can cause or aggravate respiratory disease, means manufacturers are facing intense scrutiny over the true level of pollutants being emitted by their cars.
Goldman Sachs believes a regulatory crackdown could add 300 euros ($325) per engine to diesel costs that are already some 1,300 euros above their gasoline-powered equivalents, as carmakers race to bring real NOx emissions closer to their much lower test-bench scores.
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Staying away from the hysteria, from what Ive read most of the car makers are thinking small diesels will become much less popular, with the extra money needed to fit better catalytic systems for NOx, but these costs can be much more easily absorbed in larger cars.
48V mild hybridization is seen as the medium term solution to both petrol and diesel engines. A motor "helping" the crank spin until the turbo kicks in. Relatively cheap to develop and give decent gains in efficiency
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>> So at the mount, if you want a V90 its diesel or nuffink. Its pushing
>> me towards a petrol 5 series touring if I can get my hands on one
>> for a test drive
Are you still looking and thinking? I had the impression the deal had been done. No?
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>>
>> >> So at the mount, if you want a V90 its diesel or nuffink. Its
>> pushing
>> >> me towards a petrol 5 series touring if I can get my hands on
>> one
>> >> for a test drive
>>
>> Are you still looking and thinking? I had the impression the deal had been done.
>> No?
Interim Volvo XC70 on the drive, V90 deal not done and wont be till I get my hands on a new BMW 5 touring test drive to eliminate it.
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>> Interim Volvo XC70 on the drive, V90 deal not done and wont be till I
>> get my hands on a new BMW 5 touring test drive to eliminate it.
>>
Do you need a car that big, a 3-Series Touring is quite capacious and there are some great used/nearly new buys out there.
EDIT: Including X-Drives.
Last edited by: Hard Cheese on Fri 19 May 17 at 14:46
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Hard Cheese, there is a difference between needing and wanting.
All of my life I have been used to only having things I needed.
It's so nice now to be able to have something I want, without having to justify it.
Pat
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>> It's so nice now to be able to have something I want, without having to
>> justify it.
>>
>> Pat
>>
Quite right Pat
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>> Hard Cheese, there is a difference between needing and wanting.
>>
Clearly Pat, though perhaps if Zero looked at a 3-Series he might decide he wants it more. As it happened it seems not because the size is important to him ...
... though I don't quite get the car, dog, tent and 8 hours camping thing.
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>> though I don't quite get the car, dog, tent and 8 hours camping thing. <<
Me neither, but then again, we all knew he was a little odd:)
Pat
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>> ... though I don't quite get the car, dog, tent and 8 hours camping thing.
Dog shows. Competitive Obedience.
In truth what I NEED is a smaller car, 3 series size, and a camper van. I dont fancy schlepping 200 miles a weekend in one of those tho.
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>>
>> Dog shows. Competitive Obedience.
>>
Aha.
>> In truth what I NEED is a smaller car, 3 series size, and a camper
>> van. I dont fancy schlepping 200 miles a weekend in one of those tho.
>>
Or a smaller dog ...
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>> >> Interim Volvo XC70 on the drive, V90 deal not done and wont be till
>> I
>> >> get my hands on a new BMW 5 touring test drive to eliminate it.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> Do you need a car that big, a 3-Series Touring is quite capacious and there
>> are some great used/nearly new buys out there.
As it happens yes i do. Tomorrow I am going to be packing a tent, a fold up chair, a table a picnic box full of goodies, a four foot long dog cage and a three foot 6" dog. I'll be doing it onto a muddy field, I'll be putting the tent up at the back of it, and I shall be living in the car/tent combo for 8 hours. I do this nearly every weekend in the summer months.
A 3 series touring wont cut it. In fact the volvo v90 wont accommodate the dog cage but I have been seduced by its astonishingly good looks and fantastic interior. Volvo do a dog guard/door combo to fit, at an eye watering 700 quid.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 19 May 17 at 16:25
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>> Big estate - Mondeo?
It fits the bill, as does a Skoda Superb estate. Don't WANT either tho.
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I can see that you mightn't fancy a Mondeo or Superb, Zero, but wouldn't an XC90 be similar to drive to the V90, have the same design of interior and also swallow the dog cage?
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Gosh Z, a new V70 or 5-er is quite a change from the Mitsubishi. And you'll be needing a new 'handle' too.
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>> Gosh Z, a new V70 or 5-er is quite a change from the Mitsubishi.
The lancer went 8 months ago.
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>> I can see that you mightn't fancy a Mondeo or Superb, Zero, but wouldn't an
>> XC90 be similar to drive to the V90, have the same design of interior and
>> also swallow the dog cage?
The XC90 is similar to the V90 in many ways, but just too damn HIGH. The v90, tho similar in length and width seems much more lithe and proportioned.
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Likewise
I can think of plenty of rude acronyms that would suit my new moniker
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' Porsche in sleepy Settle old fruit' is one of the kinder ones
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You will enjoy that extra height one day when it starts getting difficult to fold yourself into low slung vehicles. :-)
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Spot on. For the past 4 years I've increasing arthritis in one hip, I have 6 monthly x Rays to ascertain how far it has deteriorated.
Low humidity is a massive help and sadly my long distance walking days are a thing of the past... I'm deferring a replacement as long as possible after it went horribly wrong for two acquaintences.
I've a 6 day walking/limping holiday planned with friends on the NYMoors starting next weekend, and didn't even attempt to join friends on a 17 miler today.
Mustn't grumble
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Well after breaking my hip in November, i know all about mobility, and too low, the right hight and too high.
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And, presumably, how many mojitos is enough when on holiday?
;-)
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>> And, presumably, how many mojitos is enough when on holiday?
>>
>> ;-)
Never, as in "Never enough".
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>> And, presumably, how many mojitos is enough when on holiday?
>>
>> ;-)
>>
.....some people, however, don't understand how low is too low, however......
Below the belt, old chap, below the belt.
;-)
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>> Below the belt, old chap, below the belt.
>>
>> ;-)
And of course at his age the belt now has to be hoiked up a little higher.
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You know, I was only reflecting on that just the other day while waiting for a ferry. The car in front of me in the queue was a BMW X5 occupied by four blokes who appeared to be just a bit older than me, but probably not by much. All of them though, had their fairly unfortunately patterned polo shirts tucked in to elastic waisted trousers.
Given nothing much else to ponder on at the time, I began to wonder when that happens. When does it occur to you one morning that life has reached the point when it's the time to to start wearing hideous shirts and elastic waisted trousers?
Although in fairness, it might be something to do with golf I suppose.
But that wouldn't explain the combed over hair though would it?
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Sun 21 May 17 at 17:29
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>> unfortunately patterned polo shirts
>> tucked in to elastic waisted trousers.
>>
>> Given nothing much else to ponder on at the time, I began to wonder when
>> that happens. When does it occur to you one morning that life has reached the
>> point when it's the time to to start wearing hideous shirts and elastic waisted trousers?
Do you wear your shirt inside or outside the waistband of your trousers?
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Very easy that one. If it has buttons all the way down, and tails, it must be tucked in. If it has no buttons, or only buttons at the collar, then it should be worn loose.
Doesn't everyone know that?
;-)
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How did you break your hip?
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>> How did you break your hip?
Slipped down the steps of La Bodeguita del Medio (One of Hemingways favourite bars) in Havana. Had it x-ray'd in Havana, where they confirmed the break and wanted to operate but i declined (Cuban NHS is very good, but logistically being in hospital there would have been a nightmare) did remaining three days in Cuba on crutches, got a fit to fly form (In a previous life Princess Z used to be a nurse on medivac flights for children so she knows the drill) flew home.
Went to A&E, got admitted on the spot where they confirmed a Intertrochanteric Fracture, was admitted on the spot and the next morning had it screwed and plated.
Discharched myself after 48 hours, and was competing in a dog show 4 weeks later.
The best part is the medical disembarkment at Gatwick. Ok you have to be last off, but met by the "bleep bleep" raspberry trolly, whipped through immigration in your own channel, your bags are first off because they have disabled sticker on them. It was 16 minutes from leaving the plane to being outside the terminal on the pavement.
And yes it still hurts, mostly because they had to cut the muscle to get the Rawbolt in, and while healing it throws the balance of all the other muscles out.
Back to the point, Luckily I had previously acquired the XC70, and that is just the right hight, the Lancer would have been way too low, and having tried an XC90 thats a bit of a step up.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 21 May 17 at 08:23
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My soon(ish) to be acquired SUV is definitely easier to get in and out of than the Focus. At some point in the future I need to bite the bullet and have a hip replacement, and if successful that will open up a larger choice of vehicle.
But I don't ever expect to go back to the Mk 1 Elise I had in '97.
I garden for a lovely elderly lady nearby who has had serious health issues over the past 12 months...large house but cash poor,no nearby relatives, and cannot afford a 'proper' gardener...so today I'm due to mow her 3 lawns and cut 3 privet hedges. I don't have the heart to tell her no.
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CR-V is quite high seat-wise to climb into, mind you, the ole woman has the seat HIGH as she is 5'2"
whereas I'm six foots. Electric seats so no problemo. Tis quite a tall car to wash too.
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>> Tis quite a tall car to
>> wash too.
>>
Take it down to those nice people at Esher Rugby Club. They will do it for you. £8.
Thinks... Is it more for a 4x4 thingy?
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Being it's white, although a nice pearlescent white, I have to wash it every week due to the dust up here in clay country, but if it was grey it wouldn't be less dirty would it. I just wouldn't have to wash it so often.
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You're not wrong, the grey dust is obviously the waste part - millions and millions of tons of it, forming the Cornish Alps:
www.adventureswiththeblackdog.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/P1010819.jpg
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Would you buy a diesel now? - bathtub tom
