I'm looking for some advice for a very good friend of ours.
He was stopped on his motorbike on his way to work yesterday and after what was going to be just a ticking off by an unmarked car, the Copper ran his details through the computer.
He found that despite passing his test 18 years ago for a motorbike, he has no entitlement for that on his current licence. He has moved 3 times during that 18 years and has had his address altered on his licence and somewhere along the way the entitlement was left off.
This resulted in him standing at the side of the road, waiting for a lift while the Police recovered and stored his bike.
The Policeman was also a biker, and has gone out of his way to help Simon with suggestions as to what he ca do but all the obvious ones have drawn a blank and DVLA insist they have no records going back that far and won't talk to him.
It looks like he will have to do his theory, CBT and direct access again costing around £800 plus his bill for recovery and storage of the bike is standing at £240 although the Copper has managed to get this reduced to £180.
He has promised to state in his court statement that he followed him for a few miles and it was 100% obvious to him that he was a fully experienced rider. Of course no licence means his insurance wasn't valid and so it goes on.
Has anyone any experience of this or any advice as to what he can do?
Thanks in anticipation!
Pat
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he is one of many who have suffered similar losses of entitlement to drive.
The current recomendation is to copy your old license, with all its entitlement, before you send the old one off to DVLA.
I dont know of anyone who has managed to convince DVLA to reinstate such lost entitlements. He should write to his MP, and get him to find out from DVLA how many other people this has happened to, then present this in court.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 13 Aug 10 at 17:34
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Watchdog did a feature on this. It is quite common! DVLA will swear blind that it can't happen. But it does. Does he have any old copies of his licence anywhere??? Old insurance companies maybe?
If you change address always take a copy of the original licence so that if DVLA foul up you can show them your copy. Oh and don't send your one and only copy of it as they're bound to lose it!
Certainly complain to the MP and he should demand that the DVLA reinstate the entitlement or *pay* for the tuition and storage of his bike as it is their mistake, not his.
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There was a simlar post either here or on HJ within the relatively recent past; a forum search will probably find it. Message seemed to be that loss of entitlements when moving or migrating to photo licence is pretty common. Can he remember the approx date and the test centre where he passed the test?
If DVLA really won't engage with him then he needs to make clear that he's serious and that if necessary he's going to go all the way with a complaint. Loosing entitlements and failing to deal constructively with a complaint is prima facie maladministration and a reference to the Ombudsman is very hard work for those on the receiving end!!
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Insurance companies have all stated that they don't check licence entitlement and only keep records for 2 years anyway.MP seems a good move Z and Teabelly, thanks.
I read the thread on HJ, Bromptonaut and also found a report on a Watchdog programme about how common it is, from 2009. DVLA have stated to him that they don't make mistakes so the Ombudsman mention might be a good route.
He's trying to find his old instructor from the Test Station, but it is a long shot.
The only good thing to come out of this is that as a biker, he was always a little 'anti' the Police but he has nothing but praise for this one, and just how helpful he has been.
Pat
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When I had a tour of the DVLA a few years ago, I was shown the microfiche archive of all the old scanned licences. They can look at these to check old entitlements. Maybe they don't go back far enough though?
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Doesn't the Test Centre where he took it still have the records? Or do they send them to the DVLA?!
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Has your friend ever been prosecuted/fined in the past?- if so they may have a photocopy of his licence in the court.
Long shot but you have to think of all angles to prove innocence.
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i would be searching for the instructor to sign an affidavit
my bank for the cheque stub payment
my old bank statements (another reason to keep them for eternity in the loft in my opinion ,watch for paper mites though)
and my local mp
and also the local paper to do a write up on a situation that is frankly ridiculas that a public body doesnt keep this information for etwernity
its bad enough the bbc lost so many programmes by wiping tapes without dvla wiping peoples past history
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I took my motorcycle test 53 years ago but I did check my photo license when I recieved it.I doubt there'd be any chance of finding any records going back that far!
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So is he being prosecuted for driving otherwise than in accordance with his licence?
I suppose it's up to the licence holder to check details are correct, he didn't, so it looks like he's guilty.
He does have some fairly strong mitigation.
Does he have any old pictures of himself and motorbike on holiday?
Any respectable biker mates or bike club members who would make a statement to say he has a licence as far as they knew?
Has he dealt with motorcycle dealer over the years who knows him?
None of these things prove he has a licence, but they do lend strong support, taken with the anecdotal evidence that licence entitlements have been lost by other people.
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It might be wise for somebody receiving their licence back, to check. But, if it is wrong it is too late. I would have thought that is was more of a responsibility for a Government Agency to make sure they are doing their job right. BTW, do people only lose their motor cycle entitlement in these foul ups? Do any other entitlements go missing?
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Yes, I remember seeing on Watchdog, a chap who ran a jetski business, and who drove a pickup to transport said jetski's around.
when his licence came back, he only had motorcycle entitlement....
....he hated the idea of motorbikes, and had never cocked a leg over one........
DVLA swore blind they were right with the entitlement on that one too!
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I'm aware that if ever I renew my (red paste-board) licence, I should get a photocopy signed by a serving BIB to confirm entitlement before Swansea ever get it.
Just joking about the red paste-board, it's actually green and valid until my seventieth.
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Suggestion, Pat; has your friend been employed by anyone who would have kept a copy of his licence, ie driving agency or something?
Worth a punt?
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If you have opened a bank or building society in recent years you will have needed to produce an identity document such as a driving licence. Banks are very keen about making authorised copies of such documents, and filing them with the customer's records.
In the last few years I have had to produce and photocopy mine three times to open bank accounts, once to apply for a passport, once for a CRB check, once for my financial adviser under money laundering regulations, once to register for on-line share dealing, and once to prove my identity for an inheritance.
But I have never had to show my driving licence to a policeman.
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A few years ago when we abandoned VHS I sold a load of video's at cash converters and IIRC they scaned my license, so if he's ever used a pawn broker or cheque cashing service maybe they would have done the same.
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Thanks for all the suggestions.
This only happened on Thursday Iffy, and the copper rang him yesterday to see how he was getting on with DVLA. He said he would hold off 'processing' it as long as he possibly could to allow him to find the proof.
He works for my old firm HM, but as night shunter. They do keep photostat copies of licences, but he originally came to us as an Agency driver and then just stayed!
The agency don't keep records going back for 5 years. Due to him working nights, he's escaped the radar of our office staff too. I'll suggest the other mitigation options to him as none of us had thought about most of those.
Thanks all.
Pat
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What he also needs for mitigation is his current motorbiking strategy, because the magistrates will be concerned about repeat offending.
So, depending on what he wants to do, he can say something like:
"I've reluctantly accepted I will have to retake my test, so I've signed up with a reputable training provider.
"In the meantime I realise I cannot ride my current motorbike and will not be doing so until I've passed.
"The training provider has agreed to store it for me."
Or perhaps:
"I'm getting on a bit now and I've not been enjoying the motorcycling as much in the last few years, so I've decided to give it up.
"The bike's for sale."
It doesn't matter which, so long as it's clear to the bench he is not going to ride without a licence in future.
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I have to renew every three years, Pat. I knew about this problem and I've been lucky.
Since the problem came to light, I've only had one renewal and I didn't send my licence in, saying I was unable to find it.
My new one came back ok with all my groups on it.
If it hadn't, I would have made sure my old one was kept somewhere on the bike.
As far as I know, you can't actually have any of these groups taken off you, apart from some of the larger vehicles due to certain illnesses. Once your bike test is passed, you're qualified for the duration.
It's about time someone in DVLA had the bottle to come forth and say ' Sorry, it's our fault, we do make mistakes some time ! '
Ted
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As I mentioned above, on a tour of the DVLA building some years ago they said sometimes things go wrong and entitlements are lost. But they used to take copies of the old licence and the application forms on microfiche before destroying the originals.
Depending on how long ago the licence was changed, and providing they still put everything on microfiche in the basement, this might easily be resolved.
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Ted, the problem is that you've got to prove you've actually passed the test.
Trouble with DVLA is that like Caesar's wife, they're above suspicion.
ifi, is that what you'd do if you were in his shoes? Somehow I doubt it.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Sat 14 Aug 10 at 18:33
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...ifi, is that what you'd do if you were in his shoes? Somehow I doubt it...
Not sure what you mean, my post was aimed only at helping him build mitigation.
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Anyone know if the DVLA stopped archiving all paper copies to microfiche? This is one reason they used to use microfiche and it's indexed and therefore searchable.
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rtj70 you seem to be backing up dvla a lot
have you got an interest then?
i am a regular user of them and i can tell you the service in the last 12 months has reduced by 75%
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I'm just saying they used to archive all paper documents to microfiche. The evidence of entitlement may be at the DVLA. I am not defending them at all. Just pointing out they may be able to help.
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fine :-)
i too saw the bbc programme where they destroyed all records after so long and denied the existence of driving rights gained
fortunately their puppets in control have now lost the engine room so lets hope the new leaders right these dammed wrongs
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here's a thought, could one ask a friendly policeman to run a check on ones licence for the hell of it, is he/she obliged to? wouldnt do him/her or you any harm to get a free update would it , it would save a lot of hassle down the line and also wouldnt it show a bit of (hands across the tarmac) betwix cop and driver (licence holder)... it should be encouraged in my opinion
Last edited by: zookeeper on Sun 15 Aug 10 at 09:49
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They will only be able to tell you whats already written on your licence. (Bit like 'Consultants' really). Their info comes from the DVLA :-S
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>> Not sure what you mean, my post was aimed only at helping him build mitigation.
>>
What I mean is that if I was 100% sure that I was entitled to ride a motorcycle, I wouldn't stand up in court and infer that perhaps I wasn't. In fact I'd fight tooth and nail to prove that the authorities were wrong.
There are no "mitigating circumstances" here. Pat's friend is the victim of an administrative error which is proving all too common recently.
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...What I mean is that if I was 100% sure...
It's a matter of where the driver's responsibility ends.
We all agree it's the responsibility of the driver to take, and pass, the test for the vehicle he wants to drive.
I have some sympathy for the OP, but I think it's the driver's responsibility to check his licence is in order.
Too many guilty drivers would escape prosecution if the defence of 'I passed the test years ago but there's no record' was allowed.
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I've just re-read the original post carefully and I am not clear what exactly has been lost.
It would appear that the computerised record has been erased, but the OP does not state whether he still has his actual physical licence or whether that too has been lost.
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Morning Cliff
I just popped in to say thanks to everyone and that I have compiled the posts into a print out for him to read through and act upon.
I'll try and clarify that he still has his licence but there is no motorbike entitlement on it. DVLA have said they have no record of him having ever had the entitlement. He admits to not checking the entitlements after change of addresses, and DVLA refuse to look any further and have said the don't make mistakes.
I shall see him later today and give him the advice on this thread and will keep you all updated as to how this unfolds.
Thanks again
Pat
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...not clear what has been lost...
I think he has a licence, but the motorcycle entitlement is absent from it.
Quote from OP: "He found that despite passing his test 18 years ago for a motorbike, he has no entitlement for that on his current licence."
The problem seems to be that when people send in their licences for change of address, the new licence comes back with some vehicle groups missing.
The licence holder fails to check at the time, and only finds out a few years later, often in circumstances similar to the OP's friend.
Edit: Crossed with Pat's post above.
Last edited by: ifithelps on Mon 16 Aug 10 at 09:09
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I've heard of this happening before (letter in a bike mag some years ago).
Does anyone else find it truly staggering that something like this can happen in this day and age? Not that a license can come back with a category missing, but that it cannot be easily and simply rectified. The attitude of denial from the DVLA is unacceptable.
Keep us posted. I hope he gets something sorted.
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>> The attitude of denial from the DVLA is unacceptable.
And unbelievable when they have (used to have?) a large basement area full of reels of microfiche with scans of documents etc. Maybe they have got rid of this archive?
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...The attitude of denial from the DVLA is unacceptable....
I'm not so sure.
If they no longer have any record of you passing the test, what are they supposed do? Take your word for it?
Can we expect the DVLA to keep a record of absolutely everything for ever?
They are in the data storing business which is fast changing.
Mistakes will be made when data is transferred from storage method to another.
I think it's reasonable to expect any mistake to be corrected at the time it's made, but it's asking a lot to correct it 20 years later.
The driving licence is an earned privilege, not a right, and the citizen must bear some responsibility for keeping the documentation in order.
Had the OP's friend, or others with this problem, checked their new licences within a week or two of getting them, I suspect the problems could have been sorted.
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The case I read about was noticed within 5 minutes of the recipient opening his new license. He was told that without a photocopy of his old license, there was nothing they could do. The timescale is, I suspect, irrelevant.
I think it is a fundamental requirement of a licensing body to know exactly who is licensed to drive what at any time. Once the DVLA is notified of a category addition, that should be recorded permanently for the duration of the validity of that license, irrespective of what happens to the physical license itself. It's basic administrative competence, surely.
And then to base their whole approach to the customer on their unshakeable belief that this mistake "cannot happen" is unacceptable.
I agree people should keep their documentation in order, but sending your license off when you change address, which is how this error can happen, is doing just that.
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...was noticed within 5 minutes of the recipient opening his new licence...
That mistake should be corrected, I agree.
When I get back to the house, I might follow my own advice and check the groups on my licence. :)
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>> If they no longer have any record of you passing the test, what are they
>> supposed do? Take your word for it?
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>> Can we expect the DVLA to keep a record of absolutely everything for ever?
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Not for ever but for as long as my license is likley to be active. Scanning and before that microfiche mean they're not trying to preserve vast quantities of original paper. However, as somebody who's used microfiche records in the past, I'd bet that being sent to retrieve something from them is equivalent to a posting to Siberia!
Even once you've go the knack of getting the fiche in the reader correctly oriented you'll need to search index sheets, then find a single fiche that some other user has been too idle to back file correctly. And finally you've got to print it out!! Perhaps modern fiche reders are better but the ones we had too forever to produce a wet and smelly print!
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Will he need a Direct Access course if he's already an experienced biker?
CBT -yes
Theory test - yes
maybe one 'refresher' lesson before the 'big bike' test.....?
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Well, I passed on this information yesterday and he was very grateful to you all.
The copper who stopped him is still being really supportive and has rang DVLA now three times on his behalf but has met a brick wall and states they are totally non cooperative.
He also has a mate who runs a motorbike training school and has had a word about getting Simon a single refresher lesson prior to his test at a very reduced rate too.
I think everyone is now resigned to a court case and a retest as the only option and if it's possible the retest will be before it comes to court, which should help a lot.
I would like to add that the actions and attitude of this Copper has done so much to raise the level of respect for them, from the local biker community and lorry drivers too.
Compare this to the message given out in the Gwent Police video we had on here last week and I hope it helps to balance the books a bit.
Pat
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If there is a mistake at DVLA and they have no record of say, a motor cycle entitlement, it is irrelevant whether you check your new licence the day it arrives or a year later. If they haven't a record of your entitlement there is no record and that's it, as OP has found out.
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The sad lesson of this marvelous new electronic paper-less age is to meticulously keep every single bit of paper you ever receive, photocopy vital things like driving test pass certificates etc and keep in a secure place, preferably a bank deposit box, copy evey document you ever send to authority, send everything registered post, and instantly chase any failure to respond.
Demand the real name of anyone you ever talk to on the phone, make a transcript of the conversation and send this by registered post to the organisation asking for their confirmation as to its accuracy. If they fail to respond, register a complaint.
Then one happy day you will be in the position of spending lots of money suing the DVLA for negligence, armed with a file of evidence several inches thick.
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you cant realistically sue them though because it would bankrupt most people as they would just get their best briefs in the land onto it and the big boys would win even if it went to the high court (morning GB ;-) )
Try going to court if the enviroment agency decree that the old car youve had in your garage since 1932 with its engine out isnt waste
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They don't make mistakes huh?
Well how come they had a whole load of blank Reg Docs swiped?
How come I had a tax reminder for a tax disc that stated that the date the tax ran out was one month later than the date it did run out as stated on the VEL?
How come I have a paper clipping from many years ago which shows that two people had the same driving licence number?
I am sure that a bit of digging will produce several stories that show they do make mistakes. A big organisation like the DVLA cannot not make mistakes.
And that would I am sure provide 'reasonable doubt' in a court case.
He has to go not guilty otherwise he is admitting the offence. I think a 'Conditional Discharge' would be the right result if a reasonable case could be argued.
Having said that that could affect future insurance premiums.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Tue 17 Aug 10 at 23:16
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Apparently the 'no licence thus no insurance' situation is being ignored totally after much discussion at the roadside.
It was Simon saying it would be the outcome....and the copper insisting it wouldn't.:)
That could have posed a huge problem though, if he'd had an accident and found out about his licence that way.
Pat
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so when i send my paper licence off to the DVLA to get my address changed, what do they check my entitlements against before they print my new one?
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You'd have thought the computer already knew our entitlements. But clearly some of them have disappeared and hence the problem and why you need to check it. And take a copy before sending!
Computer says no....
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I bet some words wil be exchanged between the CPS (or whoever deals with bringing traffic offences) and the DVLA and the case will not come to court.
Reason? The DVLA can not afford to loose a case like this in court, nor can they simply give people entitlement to classes they cant find the proof for.
So it wont come to court, and can be swept under the carpet.
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Pat, if it came to it I'd be willing to testify that the DVLA had (have?) microfiche copies of all paper documents in the basement :-) I did do a tour of the entire building some years ago. But I was told the microfiche was useful when someone accidentally lost entitlements on renewing/changing a licence. That was their example not mine.
I even saw the use of shoe polish upturned (Kiwi clear) to lubricate the photo card part of the licence as it passed through the print process. It stuck otherwise.
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Thanks rtj70.
I did talk to him about this when I saw him on Monday, but there was so much advice on here for him to take in all at once:)
I get the impression that he's given up on DVLA because the copper has rang them 3 times on his behalf to try and sort this out for him, and even he can't get anywhere.
I'm interested to see what the CPS do with this now as well.
Pat
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Another update, but this time it's good news.
Our friend had a visit from the copper who originally stopped him yesterday and he told him that no charges whatsoever would be brought against him for riding without a licence.
So all he has to do now is retake his test, but it's a better result than we anticipated at the start of all this.
Pat
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Good to see that some common sense was used by the police, its just a shame that the problem was caused by the incompetence of the DVLA.
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DVLA Error - Zero
