Does a battery driven car run out of "fuel" more rapidly at high speed as a liquid fueled one would? I ask because in my area there are many free flowing motorways and dual carriageways and even local running about can be done at NSL speeds.
Don't worry I am not even contemplating getting a battery car! I dropped some of our London mob at the station yesterday after a visit for some fresh air. There were two Leafs on the chargers, I wondered how early they needed to get there to have a chance of a charge. Arrival No 3 is going to be unlucky. Tough if you are transiting the area and need a top up.
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>> Does a battery driven car run out of "fuel" more rapidly at high speed as
>> a liquid fueled one would?
>>
Yes, it also runs out more quickly on wet days, cold days etc as that all takes current to run. As has already been stated elsewhere traffic jams are pretty good for an electric car as it doesn't consume any electricity to sit still.
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As has already been stated elsewhere traffic jams are pretty
>> good for an electric car as it doesn't consume any electricity to sit still.
>>
My petrol car has stop start so does not consume fuel when stationary, it makes little difference as there very few traffic jams at the times I am on the move. Stop start is of more use to the manufacturers in reducing fuel consumption and C02 during mandatory testing, it makes no difference to my consumption if the system is on or switched off.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 9 Nov 17 at 09:37
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Same here ON. No congestion, apart from Tractors. I'd be tempted into a hybrid if the deal was right though
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>> My petrol car has stop start so does not consume fuel when stationary, it makes
>> little difference as there very few traffic jams at the times I am on the
>> move. Stop start is of more use to the manufacturers in reducing fuel consumption and
>> C02 during mandatory testing, it makes no difference to my consumption if the system is
>> on or switched off.
>>
In my car stop start only works when the gear-lever is in neutral and the clutch is up
Electric cars (all automatic) consume no power whenever you are stationary
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>> In my car stop start only works when the gear-lever is in neutral and the
>> clutch is up
>>
I am sure that all the way above average manual car drivers here will select neutral and apply the handbrake for stops long enough for stop start to be of any use. Better than riding the clutch, and wearing out your crankshaft thrust bearings. The drivers who amuse me are the ones who hold their car on a slope with the clutch doing a several minute hill start, lease cars can suffer all sorts of mechanical abuse from their " I'll get a new one soon" drivers. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 9 Nov 17 at 12:08
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>>The
>> drivers who amuse me are the ones who hold their car on a slope with
>> the clutch doing a several minute hill start,
I have a friend who used to do that. I couldn't bear it. He said "that's what it's for".
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>> As has already been stated elsewhere traffic jams are pretty
>> good for an electric car as it doesn't consume any electricity to sit still.
>>
>> Electric cars (all automatic) consume no power whenever you are stationary >>
Unless it's cold and you want or need heating, or it's hot and you want or need air con.
Last edited by: Hard Cheese on Thu 9 Nov 17 at 10:45
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>> Yes, it also runs out more quickly on wet days, cold days etc as that
>> all takes current to run. As has already been stated elsewhere traffic jams are pretty
>> good for an electric car as it doesn't consume any electricity to sit still.
>>
I've noticed a significant drop in electric range with the colder weather (guess-o-meter suggests 35 miles rather than 45 miles on a full charge). Apparently a lot of the drop is to do with warming the electric gubbins to operating temperature.
And of course any "accessory" you may use is also reducing your range, some more than others - wipers, radio, lights, heating etc. My electricity consumption gauge shows a small usage of electricity at standstill. But I think it is more economical at stop/start motoring than an ICE car.
My car has a remotely controlled pre-conditioning feature, which it is recommended you use while it is still attached to the electricity supply. This preps the engine and also puts cabin warming and heated seats to the settings they were on before the car was turned off. It takes about 15 minutes to run, and there is a forum recommendation to do that twice. I've no idea how much juice it takes yet as I've never done it.
I reckon a single full charge on mine now costs me about £1.50 (as my supercheap tariff just ran out, and if the solar panels can't assist) and that gives me about the equivalent of a gallon of petrol (£6+ these days I think).
I've not put any petrol in the car since early September and my average mpg since getting the car in late July is 160 mpg. It did run "engine maintenance mode" the other day, which is when it runs on ICE for 10 minutes to use up some petrol and keep everything working, because the ICE hasn't been used for a bit. (The ICE is just a generator for the electric motor, which is the only one which drives the wheels).
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An electric motor runs more efficiently at faster speed.
So if an electric vehicle becomes less efficient at speed it must be because other factors, such as friction or wind resistance, increase faster and offset that efficiency.
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Sorry Smokie, I lose track of these things, what kind of Hybrid do you have?
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Of course, thanks.
I am just about to order, about 95% sure, a VW Golf PHEV, having test driven one yesterday and having had a Prius on test since last Friday.
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>> Of course, thanks.
>> I am just about to order, about 95% sure, a VW Golf PHEV, having test
>> driven one yesterday and having had a Prius on test since last Friday.
>>
Buy or lease? Residuals could be hit by new models coming along with massively improved range and/or performance due to new battery tech ...
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Don't hold your breath, or believe the marketing hype. I have yet to see the month, or even week long phone battery.
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>> I have yet to see the month, or even week long phone battery.
>>
Perhaps in this high tec age you are forgetting my ancient Nokia which if I turn the bluetooth off it lasts a week.;-)
Plus I can replace the battery with one of my spares in two seconds
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>> Perhaps in this high tec age you are forgetting my ancient Nokia which if I
>> turn the bluetooth off it lasts a week.;-)
>> Plus I can replace the battery with one of my spares in two seconds
>>
Try turning on the Nokia's heater, aircon, headlights, sound system, and wipers. :-)
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>> Don't hold your breath, or believe the marketing hype. I have yet to see the
>> month, or even week long phone battery.
>>
you need to look back further, we had week long phone batteries years ago, the one on my wife's current one lasts about a week.
The battery is fine, it's just that some users expect it to perform high tech stuff as well.
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>> The battery is fine, it's just that some users expect it to perform high tech
>> stuff as well.
>>
Do you mean battery technology has not kept up with modern requirements?
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>> Do you mean battery technology has not kept up with modern requirements?
>>
Not at all, my wife's mobile phone requirements, i.e. making and receiving calls and text messages, are still catered for fine. It's other people's requirements to have a computer, colour display, music and internet access which exceed the capabilities of battery technology.
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>>I have yet to see the month, or even week long phone battery
Right now mine is at 81% showing 51h 14m left.
So not a week for sure, but improving quickly.
If that battery was put on a non-smart phone then I guess it wwould last for a long long time.
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I agree, batteries tend to retain their charge if you don't use them.
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Strange thing to say. I'm using it to type this, I usually do. My phone is inline the whole time, and I receive a lot of calls
I'd have thought you'd have been a bit more familiar with technology and how it works.
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>> If that battery was put on a non-smart phone then I guess it wwould last
>> for a long long time.
>>
I am sure I saw somewhere that you referred to the life of dumb phone batteries.
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>> Buy or lease? Residuals could be hit by new models coming along with massively improved
>> range and/or performance due to new battery tech ...
>>
Easiest of all, replacement company car residuals not my problem. BiK makes hybrid, especially plug-in hybrid, very reasonable. Will put in a "test report" in next day or 2 when time permits, might be of interest to others.
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>> Easiest of all, replacement company car residuals not my problem.
It is actually, because residuals make up a large part of calculating the monthly lease cost. If you lease cost is in line with comparable ICE models, then the lease company thinks residuals are fine, or there is some financial support at work, government or manufacturer.
>> BiK makes hybrid, especially plug-in
>> hybrid, very reasonable.
Of course a much lower BiK allows you to swallow a much higher lease cost if indeed it is higher.
How do they calculate the company mileage rate for PEV's?
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My employer provides a fuel card for everyone with a company car. You repay pro-rata for the fuel you used for private miles out of your next month's salary. So spend £100 on fuel in a month and do 400 private and 600 business miles so you'd pay £40.
The system has serious flaws... put in lots of fuel in one month and don't do many business miles so you pay for most of the fuel because of private miles. Then next month if you start with a fairly full fuel tank and do lots of business miles... so make sure you refill a few days before month end otherwise you might find you get no money back for the fuel you put in last month and just used for business miles. Leaving to the last day or so might mean purchase counts towards next months fuel purchases.
... it can of course be made to work in my favour for similar reasons ;-)
As for a PHEV that you're trying to run on electric even for some business miles - you'd get nothing back for the cost of electric.
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Oh, the horror of having to pay for your car fuel. :-)
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My point was it is possible to do a load of business miles and not get reimbursed for those business miles. As it happens in a typical year, 99% of my miles are personal so not an issue for me. But the scheme is stupid.
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> The system has serious flaws... put in lots of fuel in one month and don't do many business miles so you pay for most of the fuel because of private miles. Then next month if you start with a fairly full fuel tank and do lots of business miles... so make sure you refill a few days before month end otherwise you might find you get no money back for the fuel you put in last month and just used for business miles. Leaving to the last day or so might mean purchase counts towards next months fuel purchases.
Surely it all works out over say a year? What's the solution, pay and claim it back?
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There isn't a solution as far as I can tell apart from fill it up at sensible intervals taking into account the ratio of business and personal miles. You can't claim anything back although you can pay for fuel (if you had to) and enter that into the system.
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>> > The system has serious flaws... put in lots of fuel in one month and
>> don't do many business miles so you pay for most of the fuel because of
>> private miles. Then next month if you start with a fairly full fuel tank and
>> do lots of business miles... so make sure you refill a few days before month
>> end otherwise you might find you get no money back for the fuel you put
>> in last month and just used for business miles. Leaving to the last day or
>> so might mean purchase counts towards next months fuel purchases.
>>
>> Surely it all works out over say a year? What's the solution, pay and claim
>> it back?
>>
Yes, it'll even out over time.
The best way is to buy your own fuel on a csah back credit card and charge the company for fuel used for businezs.
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>> The best way is to buy your own fuel on a csah back credit card and charge the company for fuel used for businezs.
Except since I have a company car I cannot claim back fuel or cost per mile mileage. There is no pence per mile rate I am allowed to use. So I'm stuck with the stupid system using the fuel card. In fact the online expense system does not even have the option to claim for business miles or fuel so it's impossible to put the claim in let alone get it approved.
But no worries because they don't want us to travel if we can avoid it which suits me. Voice conferences etc. are preferred.
I'm not bothered to be honest because I know it's flawed so I'll make sure I never lose out. I've tried raising this with the procurement team but they're not interested.
EDIT: When I got my Mazda6 in 2007 I asked fleet for a mileage rate... they said I had to use the fuel card. I said I didn't have one. They said you can't order a car without having one. Well I'd had the car a few months by then and had a company car since 1996 ;-) So I got one in the post in a few days.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 9 Nov 17 at 22:34
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Mileage rate currently as for petrol
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>> Mileage rate currently as for petrol
I guess that makes sense, most company miles will be outside battery only range.
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>> I guess that makes sense, most company miles will be outside battery only range.
I attend a few meetings up to 40 miles away and get 40p/mile despite my engine capacity being 0.0 litre.
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>> >> I guess that makes sense, most company miles will be outside battery only range.
>>
>> I attend a few meetings up to 40 miles away and get 40p/mile despite my
>> engine capacity being 0.0 litre.
>>
not typical for our company, until you get senior enough to get a car as part of the remuneration package you need 7000 business miles a year to justify getting a company car at all. I think the casual user rate is similar to your 40p, which is supposed to cover running costs etc for these miles, not just fuel.
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I'm lucky that my car is part of my renumeration otherwise I'd never qualify for one these days. I could take the cash instead. If you have a business need car rather than a benefit one, the choice of vehicle is very limited and there is no cash allowance alternative.
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But the BIK rates are stupid going from 2017/2018 to 2018/2019. At the moment you will pay tax on 9% of the list price. Come next April 5th it will jump to 13%.
Jumping 4% for the next tax year is hardly encouraging uptake of PHEV is it.
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>> But the BIK rates are stupid going from 2017/2018 to 2018/2019. At the moment you
>> will pay tax on 9% of the list price. Come next April 5th it will
>> jump to 13%.
>>
>> Jumping 4% for the next tax year is hardly encouraging uptake of PHEV is it.
And the BiK rates for Diesel and Petrol will be?????????
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>> And the BiK rates for Diesel and Petrol will be?????????
Diesel PHEV next April will be 16%, petrol PHEV 13%. Okay still a lot cheaper than petrol and diesel ICE but you can get those with much lower list prices.
Do the calculation for the Passat GTE I nearly went for:
- 13% of £40000 is £5200
For a standard 1.4TSI DSG SE L Exec Superb (no extras apart from metallic paint):
- 25% of £27780 = £6,945
But the difference in monthly rentals makes these two much closer than they should be in my opinion - I'd have got money back on that spec Superb each month but paid up the maximum for the Passat GTE.
The BIK rates for PHEV should not be jumping 4% when the ICE rates only go up 2%.
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>> The BIK rates for PHEV should not be jumping 4% when the ICE rates only
>> go up 2%.
>>
Why? Perhaps it is an acknowledgement of the embedded carbon.
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All carbon measuring/charging is a tax gathering scam, used as an reason to stifle complaint.
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As an aside to this.... it being a given that the interior heating system of an internal combustion powered car uses excess heat generated by the engine, surely on a cold day an electric-powered car would be even more restricted in its range by the need to use the heater/heated rear window/demister?
If so, roughly by how much? And out of curiosity, are the heaters on electric cars any good?
Last edited by: Harleyman on Thu 9 Nov 17 at 22:29
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>> are the heaters on electric cars any good?
>>
I would expect that they use PTC heaters as used to provide a rapid hot air supply after a cold start in many diesel cars.
Edit - Found this.
www.eenewsautomotive.com/news/ptc-heater-electric-and-hybrid-vehicles-allows-dual-temp-zones
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 9 Nov 17 at 22:57
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Cheers ON. I'm going to hazard a guess that one of the potential advantages of a leccy car is that you could set the heater, via a timer or remote control, to warm the cabin up whilst the vehicle's still plugged into the mains thus reducing the demand on the batteries whilst running; is this in fact the case?
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That is exactly what you can do. PeterS has said he does this on here before.
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Pass, mine runs on petrol. :-)
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See my post @ 10:46 HM where pre-conditioning is mentioned. It's as much about warming up the batteries before use as the cabin, AIUI.
If you don't pre-condition, the hot air heating is instant, which is nice. In those circumstances the recommendation seems to be that the heated seats give you better core warmth and are a more efficient use of your limited power than blowing hot air around.
I get this info from a car-specific forum and there are people there who have vast amounts of knowledge about the car in general, and also how to optimise range in any conditions. For instance there is discussion about making sure you buy low resistance (and low noise!) tyres, and the best and most efficient way to remove/avoid condensation with minimal heater use!!
It does become a bit of a challenge for many to see how far you can get on a single charge!!!
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>> It does become a bit of a challenge for many to see how far you
>> can get on a single charge!!!
>>
I don't do fuel gauge stress, a battery car must be fuel stress on steroids. As the eight week Leaf guy found out.
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>> I don't do fuel gauge stress, a battery car must be fuel stress on steroids.
>> As the eight week Leaf guy found out.
>>
Who is that?
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>> Who is that?
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=24798
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 10 Nov 17 at 08:42
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>> >> It does become a bit of a challenge for many to see how far
>> you
>> >> can get on a single charge!!!
>> >>
>>
>> I don't do fuel gauge stress, a battery car must be fuel stress on steroids.
>> As the eight week Leaf guy found out.
>>
You are missing the point, it is a challenge to achieve the greatest electric only miles just for the sake of it with a range extender car like mine. As soon as the electricity runs out, it seamlessly and imperceptibly fires up the ICE engine to power the electric motor.
Or you can choose to use the old fashioned engine if you want to preserve your electricity for some reason (maybe cos it's more efficient than ICE for stop/start motoring). Or you can choose to use "mountain mode" which I think uses both, for when you need add a bit of extra oomph to the electric motor when its under strain (e.g. log hills I presume)
There is no fuel stress in a range extender PHEV.
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>>surely on a cold day an electric-powered car would be even more restricted in its range by the need to use the heater/heated rear window/demister? If so, roughly by how much?
Good question - it depends on the individual car though.
Teslas and my Merc have liquid cooled/heated batteries, and resistive element heating (think 3-5 bar electric heaters) - Simply warming the car and battery pack up on a frosty morning can use 2-3kWh on top of anything used to actually drive.
Heating on the move will be 1-3kW, heated seats I believe around 0.3kW
Most other cars either have no active battery thermal control or use the heating system to manage this (Kia Soul), and some use a heat pump (option on some LEAFs, standard on Soul) which requires about 1/3 of the energy of my electric heater.
Winter range of an EV is typically about 2/3 of summer range due to the combination of cold batteries and heating them and the vehicle/occupants.
Pre-heating while charging reduces this problem considerably.
>> And out of curiosity, are the heaters on electric cars any good?
As a rule they are very good, with immediate heat.
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Aircon or heating on a Tesla reduces the range by at least 20% IIRC.
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>>Aircon or heating on a Tesla reduces the range by at least 20% IIRC.
Is a bit less than that on a run, around 10% at 70mph, but more if crawling.
Wheel size makes a difference too (as it does with all cars)
Going from 19" wheels (standard on Model S) to 21" reduces range by about 3%
Real world range is around 230 miles for a 75kWh Model S, and about 310 miles for 100kWh versions
Model 3 (won't see them in the UK til 2019 at the very earliest) are rated at 220 real miles for the entry model, and 335 miles for the 'long range' one.
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>> Winter range of an EV is typically about 2/3 of summer range due to the
>> combination of cold batteries and heating them and the vehicle/occupants.
>>
>> Pre-heating while charging reduces this problem considerably.
>>
>>
Thank you. That was the figure I was looking for. I've no intention of buying an electric car yet, but it's useful to know the pro's and cons.
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If it helps, I can say the Zoe I have has reliably returned just over 100 miles a charge at temperatures of 8 centigrade and over, and never less than 85 miles however cold it has got. Not, therefore, in my case, anything like as little as two thirds of the range winter v summer.
Of course, my Zoe battery size (22 kWh) is no longer available, as it now comes with 40 kWh. The equivalent real life reported ranges to mine on that model are coming in at about 150 to 180 without trying, at one end, or going mad at the other. You could therefore do a bit worse or a bit better if you really wanted to.
Mine at least are achieved with no special considerations, just driving it and using heat or aircon entirely as I do in in any other car.
Various "ordinary" models with the next stage 60kWh batteries are already announced for 2018.
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>> I've no intention of buying an electric car yet, but it's useful to know the pro's and cons.
It appears Shell and BP are both pushing into the rapid charger business - Shell have just unveiled their first charger in London in one of their petrol stations with a much larger roll out in 2018 as they learn what works.
Their business model is simply to charge per kWh: 25p per unit initially, planning to increase to 49p/kWh in the second half of 2018.
This would cost similar to diesel (roughly 10p/mile - about 3-4 times the cost of home charging), but I expect the considerable convenience to nab 50-60 miles of range in 10 minutes may prove quite popular, especially if they were at every filling station.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nst2RGtgzfk
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As I understand it (and happy to be corrected) the drawback with "rapid" charging is, apart from it still being time-consuming compared with refilling with fossil fuels, a deleterious effect upon the batteries if done too regularly.
As most of you know I run a van; and whilst I could still happily do my local stuff with an electric van, as a tool for doing anything longer range, which is not infrequent, it'd be as useful as an ashtray on my motorbike.
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Best you'll get from a van for the foreseeable future is the upcoming 40kWh Nissan nv200 - 150-160 mile range I expect.
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>> Best you'll get from a van for the foreseeable future is the upcoming 40kWh Nissan
>> nv200 - 150-160 mile range I expect.
>>
Yes, and that's too small for what I need. Not too bothered, quite frankly; I suspect diesel vans will still be very much in the majority by the time I pack up driving. For all the noise being made electric traction is not going to be an overnight revolution.
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>>I suspect diesel vans will still be very much in the majority by the time I pack up driving
I expect so.
Fuel cost savings of ~£15000 over 100,000miles may swing it for some though.
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>> >>I suspect diesel vans will still be very much in the majority by the time
>> I pack up driving
>>
>> I expect so.
>>
>> Fuel cost savings of ~£15000 over 100,000miles may swing it for some though.
>>
Factored against the following;
1) Universal availability of diesel fuel; currently anyway, I accept that this may change.
2) Range; my van can do 500+ miles on a tankful, without needing to stop. Rare of course that this is needed by me but could well be by commercial operators.
3) Speed; current van will cruise happily at legal limit, most electric vans struggle to reach it. As above for commercial operators with deadlines to meet.
4) I'm in the "banger" end of the market, 15K buys you a year old van of the size I drive. Most I've ever paid for a van was five grand for the 5 year old Mercedes Sprinter LWB I bought in 2003 to move down here with; sold it on after a year as it was too big to fit in supermarket car spaces.
I'm by no means against converting to electric traction, but I'm damned if I'd shell out the best part of a year's wages simply to transfer my emissions to a power station, and end up with a vehicle which is more limited in its usefulness.
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>> But the BIK rates are stupid going from 2017/2018 to 2018/2019. At the moment you
>> will pay tax on 9% of the list price. Come next April 5th it will
>> jump to 13%.
>>
This is why I got out of the company car when I did. I was never that fussy about what I drove when it was cheap, but once the tax bill started approaching the monthly payments on a finance agreement for the same car, it started to grate. I also didn't really like my last company car which I inherited when I joined, so was happy to hand it back.
Luckily my employer offers a good allowance, and is flexible in terms of work location. They are also happy for us to use trains for longer distances as well. Factor in MAR tax relief, and the ongoing punitive approach to company car tax.
The government's approach to this must be costing the Treasury a fortune, as people don't like being held to ransom.
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The other change this year is if you can have an allowance then you are taxed on either the BIK value of the car or the allowance, whichever is greater. So there is no incentive to trade down to say a small car with a petrol engine because you'll be taxed the same as having a £30k car (or thereabouts).
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Our system offers a car from within a grade related choicelist, or the ability to pay extra and "upgrade" to something from the next grade list. So in that case you pay BIK AND a monthly upgrade fee, which is nonsense.
If neither of those appeals, they simply chuck a monthly allowance in your pay packet (again, grade dependent), and you are expected sort yourself out, although they do insist on annual proof of the correct business insurance cover as a condition of the allowance).
The allowance is simply taxed as income at your normal marginal rate. Keeps things nice and simple. I'm sure HMRC will go after this at some point.
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>> The allowance is simply taxed as income at your normal marginal rate. Keeps things nice
>> and simple. I'm sure HMRC will go after this at some point.
>>
How? From HMRC's perspective it's simply income that someone chooses to buy a car with.
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>>
>> How? From HMRC's perspective it's simply income that someone chooses to buy a car with.
>>
Separate line item on the payslip. Not pensionable or included in % pay rise calculations. If it were substituted for an equivalent pay rise, it would "disappear" though.
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>> >>
>> >> How? From HMRC's perspective it's simply income that someone chooses to buy a car
>> with.
>> >>
>>
>> Separate line item on the payslip. Not pensionable or included in % pay rise calculations.
>> If it were substituted for an equivalent pay rise, it would "disappear" though.
>>
For HMRC it's still taxable income, there's no loophole to close.
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>>
>> For HMRC it's still taxable income, there's no loophole to close.
>>
Not a loophole as such, but this is costing the Treasury money.
When I did my sums based on 2016/17 rules, the income tax on the allowance was within a few quid of the BIK due on the car I had at the time, so on the face of it, they wouldn't care. However, by opting out i became eligible for MAR which is worth about £1300 a year in tax relief to me.
Using my last car for comparison purposes, the 2019/20 BIK rates would push the BIK to just over £800 a year higher than the income tax due on the allowance. So, assuming MAR stays unchanged, that's £2100 the Treasury is missing out on in 2019/20 just from little old me.
In the current economic climate, it's hard to see this going unchallenged for long. MAR will go (or be significantly reduced) as a first step, I suspect.
The so-called 'Grey Fleet' has reached 14 million cars now, and tax savings have been a big driver.
Last edited by: DP on Fri 10 Nov 17 at 14:57
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>> Using my last car for comparison purposes, the 2019/20 BIK rates would push the BIK
>> to just over £800 a year higher than the income tax due on the allowance.
>> So, assuming MAR stays unchanged, that's £2100 the Treasury is missing out on in 2019/20
>> just from little old me.
>>
The point is that it's not transparent, to the Treasury you are just like any other non company car driver. Yes, if the BiK tax take falls they may look to increase the tax take elsewhere though a car allowance is not a loophole they can close.
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> The government's approach to this must be costing the Treasury a fortune, as people don't
>> like being held to ransom.
>>
>>
>>
I'm not sure but I think the number of company cars is steady ish at 1 million. Its going down but only very slowly.
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>> I'm not sure but I think the number of company cars is steady ish at
>> 1 million. Its going down but only very slowly.
>>
I have had a company car for 35 of the last 40 years and am taking another for my last few years of work for one main reason, mileage. I enjoy driving a new car and with an average mileage over the years of over 20000 miles a year I have found company cars to be the cheapest and simplest way to do that as the best mix of new car, maintenance cost and lack of hassle.
Choosing a hybrid now, for the final car, having run diesels since 1998, seems the best approach to me to get a reasonable level of performance and comfort with good fuel consumption and cleaner emissions.
Incidentally our company car scheme now excludes anything with CO2 emissions of over 120 things which is another push towards hybrids for many people.
Last edited by: commerdriver on Fri 10 Nov 17 at 10:14
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>> Our system offers a car from within a grade related choicelist, or the ability to pay extra
>>and "upgrade" to something from the next grade list. So in that case you pay BIK AND a
>>monthly upgrade fee, which is nonsense.
Same here. Cost of BIK and trade up was significantly in excess of a private lease, insurance and maintenance budget so I bailed.
Several members of the team can't be bothered with the person admin of getting out of the company scheme. Clearly they don't care for the potential extra couple of grand a year in their pockets.
A friend's company car scheme is the pits. They have an allowance and list, but mileage is taken in to consideration, so someone that drives 20,000 miles on business will have a worse car than someone that does 5,000 miles a year and so may have to pay an excess! This is with one of the UK's largest employers!
Last edited by: zippy on Fri 10 Nov 17 at 10:13
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I wonder if it would be 'better' or at least simpler to have a pool car? I'm not a company car user and probably never will, but I know some with vans that can only use them for work no private miles.
Perhaps not best for the person but I wonder if that's what companies will aim for as it's simpler?
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I had a quick look at a 330e today, friend had it on demo, nice M-Sport spec, nice colour, shallower boot than a normal saloon. Great BiK savings to be had and great fuel savings too if you have a 20 mile commute and can charge at home and work.
Though real world mpg is mid to late 30's so no wonder the Treasury are closing the % gap between ICE and hybrid as hybrid drivers are currently not paying as much BiK as an ICE driver and in many (maybe most) cases using more fuel over the same mileage.
OK, this is a 252bhp turbo petrol though the comparision with a much cheaper 330i, same engine though lighter and a 258bhp 330d is interesting.
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>> I had a quick look at a 330e today, friend had it on demo, ....
>> Though real world mpg is mid to late 30's
>>
Wonder how and where your friend drives HC, one of my colleagues who got one of these in March this year reckons he gets high 40s as a normal MPG and when I had a Prius hybrid on test recently it returned over 60mpg on about 500 miles of varied driving, OK it's less powerful than the 330e but that's more than I get with either a diesel or pure petrol vehicle of similar size/performance.
Anyway, I will know soon as I have just ordered a Golf GTE PHEV for delivery in March and I expect it to deliver a normal mileage in high 40s / low 50s depending on how frequently I can plug it in to recharge.
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The economy of these plug-in hybrids is far more sensitive to journey length / use than a traditional petrol or diesel. Ours is averaging just under 90 mpg now, but most of its journeys are less than 50 miles and so a good chunk is done using electricity. Under 20 miles and it’ll almost never use the engine, so an infinite number of miles to th gallon, though Audi’s OBC maxes out at 300mpg.
We’ve had it almost two years, and it’s done 28,000 miles. It’s charged every night, and now that it’s got chilly in the mornings the pre-heat function is very welcome. Over those miles we’ve used just under 42,000 kWh of electricity, which at current prices is probably around £450. On top of that it’s used just over 300 gallons of petrol to average the 88mpg, back calculating using the OBC recorded consumption. £450 is around 90 gallons of V-Power. So in petrol equivalent cost it’s used 390 gallons to do 28,000 miles, or 72mpg.
Which is still not bad I don’t think. Run on petrol only you can get it down to 45mpg on a tank, but you have to try very hard... Normal use on petrol only is difficult to say, because it recovers power as it goes anyway and recharges the battery. But the nearest equivalent would have been a run from Epernay to the Eurotunnel, where it averaged mid 50s , admittedly cruise controlled to the French motorway limits... most of the time... ;)
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Interesting to hear that. My one will be recharged at home but that will probably be mainly at weekends as I spend much of the week away from home so will not be able to recharge, except off the engine many weeks. Both the hybrids that I tested used the electric motor sometimes independently and sometimes in tandem with the petrol engine which seemed to keep the overall mpg a bit higher than petrol alone.
Let us not forget, however, that hybrid mpg is just as sensitive to the size of the car and the weight of the right foot on the pedal as any other kind of fuel consumption.
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The lifetime mpg on mine is now 68.4, up from 66,7 when I got it. I haven't done a lot of miles but it came with 36k on it, was a lease car and, I suspect, the previous owner got it more for the bik advantage than any attempt to use the PHEV to it's best. The computer on mine maxes at 250mpg, but it would show that even if you had done 250 miles without using any petrol at all.
I did reset one of the trip computers shortly after buying it and that's showing I've done 1670.4 miles using 10.3 gallons used, average 162.1 mpg. The last petrol I bought was £20 worth on 14 Sept, and I still have about £10-worth in the tank...
The most irritating trip for me has been taking it to the dealers, which I have done three times. It can't go to any old Vauxhall dealer, it has to go to an Ampera qualified one and that is about 40 miles away, so I can only do half of that on electricity. I had some stuff done under warranty - all 4 alloys replaced and also the rear light clusters, so it went in once for assessment, then the second time for the work but they had shipped the wrong clusters so I had to go back again...
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Commerdriver, if you don't frequently recharge this then do not expect the average mpg to be as high as you are hoping for. High mpg relies on use of some electric motor usage. It will recharge the batteries a bit when driving.
I had the Passat GTE for a weekend. One long with a return distance of about 430 miles. I set out with it fully charged and could not charge at the other end. When I got home it was reporting 46mpg for the journey. I could not do a brim to brim calculation because the car arrived with a quarter tank so I guessed how much to put in.
Local driving with stop start did give very good MPG of course, especially with some on electric power (so infinite mpg).
The dealer told me that on longer journeys you'd not expect high mpg and that was what customers were reporting. But you'll be saving on BIK.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 13 Nov 17 at 15:01
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As per my post above I am sure rtj means that you should not expect high mpg. These type of cars are great for short commutes with charging facilities in hand, though don't compare very favourably with diesel and some petrol cars over long runs and high mileage use, so no wonder the BiK gap is being closed by the gov.
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To answer you directly HC, I reckon from my testing acquaintance that the PHEV Golf compares very favourably with petrol as a company car in cost terms and very well with diesels in local pollution terms.
In my view, pretty well any Government policy as far as cars go is far more an economic issue than any genuine environmental issue. The biggest reason to alter BIK for electric or part electric cars is to get some of the money back that used to come from BIK on diesels.
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My target MPG is only around the high 40s / low 50s, in other words what I currently get from a Golf GTD but without the nasty sooty stuff.
I have this wonderfully optimistic idea that during the 2-4 years I expect to have it, more charging points will appear that I can use when I am away from home, or else that I will be spending more time closer to home so can return home to charge it more often.
As a company car it is actually cheaper than either a petrol or diesel Golf to equivalent spec / performance.
In my current role I have a weekly return journey from Marlow to Warwick up & down the M40 for which the GTD records 50-55 mpg depending on traffic, de-cing etc and local driving between the office & the hotel and local shops for lunch shopping during which the GTD mileage is less than wonderful. I also find that I can easily stack up 50 miles of "local" driving at weekends which currently gets low mpg.
The weekend with the Prius was an exceptional weekend but it did not seem to suffer hugely from 5 days of local use around Warwick
The MPG is what it is but it will, at worst, get better MPG than a petrol or diesel and will be a lot cleaner for short local journeys.
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>> The MPG is what it is but it will, at worst, get better MPG than a petrol or diesel and will be a
>> lot cleaner for short local journeys.
If you can charge it often then it will get better mpg than a diesel for sure. But if you can't and it's run as a non-plugin hybrid (with a very large battery) then I do not think it will be as efficient as a diesel car, particularly on longer, higher speed journeys.
I hope I'm wrong but I base this on my experience of the Passat GTE which I had for 3 days.
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Wonder if diesels are going to get hot hard in the Budget (22nd). I expect so.
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>> Wonder if diesels are going to get hot hard in the Budget (22nd). I expect so.
So do I. I didn't go for a diesel in 2014 and again in 2017 because (a) I don't do huge miles so do not benefit from the increased mpg most months - and if I increased the number of such journeys I do then they are probably for work so won't lose out anyway and (b) didn't want a diesel again because of the emissions and this was ordered before Dieselgate.
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>> If you can charge it often then it will get better mpg than a diesel
>> for sure. But if you can't and it's run as a non-plugin hybrid (with a
>> very large battery) then I do not think it will be as efficient as a
>> diesel car, particularly on longer, higher speed journeys.
>>
If you mean a door to door single journey you are probably right if it does not start with a charged battery, however if we are talking about a week on a client site with 10 miles of 4 local journeys per day and a 70 mile journey at either end I think the hybrid will be better. even if it doesn't get charged in between
If I am wrong it's no big deal as I didn't look at a diesel for pollution reasons.
The Prius on a 70 mile motorway run got better mpg than the GTD gets on the same journey.
It would not, however, have shown as well as the numbers I used to get from a motorway journey in my BMW 318d quite often.
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Battery car question. - commerdriver
