This is a link to a story about areas where the introduction of 20mph speed limits has, in fact, worked against the anticipated outcome.
No surprise there. I live in a large area that has 20mph zones and, for 95 per cent of the time, the speed limit is ignored - in many instances not surprisingly.
Nothing more frustrating, it's felt, than to be limited to a 20mph speed limit on wide roads with maximum visibility of other traffic, the occasional cyclist and pedestrians.
tinyurl.com/yd8slc2j
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No great surprise, it's dumbing down. Over zealous enforcement will either cause people to rebel or troll along at the limit with little in the way of concentration. Better to train and empower people, encouraging them to be responsible for their actions and evaluating attitude as well as aptitude.
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They've been misused.
Personally I think there are absolutely places that 20mph is a good thing. Just not the blanket approach that the car-hating a***-hats in Oxford took, for example.
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That the 20mph speed limit is overused is very true, many speed limits are inappropriate, at a given time of the day, and its very bad consequence is that people ignore them because of that.
But its Absolute tripe to say the 20mph speed limit is more dangerous "because pedestrians feel safer". Utter utter cobblers. That the source is the Online Daily mail is no suprise.
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They put in limits without traffic calming measures. Studies show that 20mph limits only work with calming. Studies which are in the public domain , free access and published years ago.
Morons ignore evidence.
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Without seeing the accident stats it's speculation, but I suspect they are relatively small numbers and as such the annual variation could swamp the trend anyway.
Also, most drivers know that 20 limits are not generally enforced. And if the designated areas are sensible, perhaps many drivers were below 30mph before the new limits.
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>> Without seeing the accident stats it's speculation, but I suspect they are relatively small numbers
>> and as such the annual variation could swamp the trend anyway.
While the stats continue to mix dead for ever and broken wrists in one KSI figure they are meaningless.
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>> But its Absolute tripe to say the 20mph speed limit is more dangerous "because pedestrians
>> feel safer". Utter utter cobblers.
My observation of our local high street is that since the introduction of the 20 limit pedestrians are much more inclined to treat the road as an extension of the pavement, and to jay walk across the road with less attention to traffic.
They presumably are either more suicidal or they feel safer.
As a consequence, even 20 mph is now too fast. They'll be lowering it to 10 soon.
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10? Local chit chat in the papers is that within two years, it will be nought in Cambridge. Council have proposed a total ban on anything non-electric in the City by 2020. It's Being Discussed.
Course, being run over by a Leaf doesn't hurt so much.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Mon 18 Dec 17 at 10:00
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well you won't be alerted by its noise
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>> But its Absolute tripe to say the 20mph speed limit is more dangerous "because pedestrians feel safer". Utter utter cobblers.
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Disagree, pedestrian carefulness is direct in proportion to the speed of the passing traffic.
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>> >> But its Absolute tripe to say the 20mph speed limit is more dangerous "because
>> pedestrians feel safer". Utter utter cobblers.
>> >>
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>> Disagree, pedestrian carefulness is direct in proportion to the speed of the passing traffic.
Ooo its only doing 20mph, I'll step out in front of it.
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>> Ooo its only doing 20mph, I'll step out in front of it.
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Exactly. That's precisely how they think. I notice it myself when on foot - a 20 area feels as if it's half way to becoming a pedestrianised street, and I'm immediately aware of a feeling"It's our street now".
You see it too in any street that is so thronged with pedestrians that they spill over into the road, especially if there's some event on - fair, football match, sales. There's a feeling of empowerment and reclaiming an ancient right.
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>>
>> >>
>> >> Ooo its only doing 20mph, I'll step out in front of it.
>> >>
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>> Exactly. That's precisely how they think. I notice it myself when on foot
I have never noticed it, nor have I seen then walking out in front of cars because its a 20mph speed limit. I doubt they have even read the speed limit signs.
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Most pedestrians don't read speed limits.
They usually assume a limit based on how quickly cars pass on the road. So, pedestrians could be careful when crossing a 60 MPH road but they are unlikely to be more careful for a 30 MPH road compared to a 20 MPH road.
Also, a very large number pedestrians nowadays don't look at anything except their phone screens!
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If you cover 1/4 mile at 30 mph instead of 20 you would save 10 seconds.
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Actually savings can be more than few seconds in reality. If one manages to dodge few traffic lights by being amber gambler, it might mean catching earlier train and reaching work 30 minutes earlier than next train. =:-0
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The bigger issue is that in urban areas slower speeds increase congestion which causes further delays and congestion is a causal factor in accidents.
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>> The bigger issue is that in urban areas slower speeds increase congestion which causes further
>> delays and congestion is a causal factor in accidents.
While that seems like common sense I doubt it actually stands up to scientific examination.
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>> While that seems like common sense I doubt it actually stands up to scientific examination.
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Which bit, slower speeds cause congestion, or congestion is a factor in accidents?
I really can see how anyone could argue either point ...
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>>slower speeds cause congestion
Depends on whether you mean top speed (speed limit) or average speed (actual progression) I guess.
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>>Which bit, slower speeds cause congestion, or congestion is a factor in accidents?
>> I really can see how anyone could argue either point ...
Ok, let's assume that the traffic is travelling at 20mph rather than 30mph, and you're increased congestion argument causing more accidents holds true...
At 20mph an adult pedestrian is 2% likely to be killed being hit, and at 30mph they are 8% likely to be killed (and at 40mph about 30% chance) - kids fare significantly worse.
You recommend the 30mph?
I'd like to see your evidence that congestion in town increases injurious accidents - on A-roads and M-ways I'm sure you're right (with high speed vehicles not noticing the pile-up ahead).
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There are a number of factors, congestion increases the likelihood of collisions for obvious reasons, more vehicles travelling closer together. It's less of a factor in respect of vehicles hitting pedestrians.
The problem with your argument is that we would be driving at walking speed if you extrapolate it. The focus needs to be separating pedestrians and vehicles and stopping accidents rather than focussing on speed alone.
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Lots of stray dogs in Santiago. They know to wait at red lights and pretty much only ever cross on green at proper crossings. I swear this is true.
How do they all know how to use crossings? Because all the ones that don't are dead.
I see no particular reason not to apply the same approach to cyclists and pedestrians. Why should my money be spent physically forcing separation? The ones that can't understand are only polluting the puddle anyway.
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>> The bigger issue is that in urban areas slower speeds increase congestion which causes further
>> delays and congestion is a causal factor in accidents.
Not necessarily - in fact they may well make the queues at the pinch points (usually junctions) shorter.
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Is it Sweden where they removed road signs, painted lines and pavements etc which helps slow traffic down?
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>> Is it Sweden where they removed road signs, painted lines and pavements etc which helps
>> slow traffic down?
Germany, wasn't it?
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It's been done here, somewhere in Gloucestershire or Oxfordshire at least, and probably elsewhere as well.
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>> It's been done here, somewhere in Gloucestershire or Oxfordshire at least, and probably elsewhere as
>> well.
Exhibition Road in London:
goo.gl/maps/qSrgB1BZceS2
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 19 Dec 17 at 15:31
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The concept of “shared space†and “naked streets†was developed in the 1990s by the late Dutch engineer, Hans Monderman.
I've seen some examples on trips to Holland. Here's a link about Monderman and UK involvement:
tinyurl.com/y7qpga2h
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goo.gl/maps/qSrgB1BZceS2
Classic two-tone Silver Shadow there. Lovely.
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>> >> It's been done here, somewhere in Gloucestershire or Oxfordshire at least, and probably elsewhere as well.
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>> Exhibition Road in London:
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>> goo.gl/maps/qSrgB1BZceS2
>>
Strange. The caption says Lords Cricket ground. Which it isn't.
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Laws have to make sense if they have any chance of being obeyed. To be limited to 20mph on clear roads, with good visibility and minimal hazards is as you say, going to be widely ignored.
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We've heard this before.... - Hard Cheese
