>> www.bloodbikesdevon.org.uk/news/press/not-guilty
We've only got one side of the story but the way it's told there suggests the Police Officer, MPC Oliver, has an issue with volunteer medical couriers and their use of 'blues and twos'. Now the criminal trial is out of the way one hopes he will be disciplined, or at least offered guidance on his conduct.
Getting involved in a pursuit with youngsters in the car and carrying out the stop in a dangerous position need to be on the charge sheet too.
Owner of the bike should take civil action for damage.
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As Bromp says, we've only got one side of the story, but accepting its version that it does seem somewhat excessive.
Other stories say that there were two police officers in the vehicle, also that carrying the teenagers *was* authorised by an inspector, and that for "excessive speed" they didn't have to know what the bike's speed was, just that they reasonably believed that it was more than the limit.
Difficult to imagine justification for stopping someone in a dangerous place, but perhaps that's just where the bike stopped. Though you'd expect the police to tell him to move.
Still seems inappropriate, but I think that bike charity has employed a Daily Mail writer for the purpose.
I think that there is a point though; It should be Emergency Services on Emergency business only.
Here it is much more relaxed around who may or may not use sirens and lights so loads of people do with marginal justification.
Consequently police and ambulances have to fight for the traffic since they don't stand out from all the other lights & sirens users. Fire Engines tend to be a bit more obvious!
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There's a trail of case-law on Officers assessing speed of a motor vehicle to support a prosecution - ultimately it ended up as being a pretty scientific test (i.e. not just the opinion of an Officer and it needs to be corroborated in another way) Corroboration by a fellow Officer has been proved not to be sufficient.
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>> I think that there is a point though; It should be Emergency Services on Emergency
>> business only.
I'd broadly agree though not forgetting emergency services are not just fire, police or ambulance. There's Mountain Rescue, Coastguard and no doubt quite a few others.
UK also has issue that some services, probably including stuff like movement of blood/transplant stuff in this case, is done by volunteers or contractors. I don't know who does it now but at one time London Private Hire Co Lewis Day had a contract to move blood and stuff in central London. Not sure they had sirens but certainly carried a blue light.
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Seems like MPC Oliver has a bit of a obsession - the article is written with an "angle" but maybe he should have thought twice, especially with those youngsters in the car with him. CPS should have booted this out at first consideration. Useful publicity for the Blood Bikers...was considering volunteering..
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Glad he was found not guilty.
Some police officers really do seem to have a "bee in their bonnet" about others using blues and twos or even wearing reflective jackets with the word "polite" because they are impersonating the police.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10039547/Horse-riders-told-not-to-wear-polite-bibs.html
Perhaps they should learn to spell!
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Many years ago a colleague used a big bike with a full white fairing, he wore a white helmet and high visibility jacket. When riding into a city in the north east he was stopped by the police for impersonating a police officer. Told that he was seen on CCTV the policeman who stopped him agreed that he had not been speeding or riding dangerously or had any police markings or equipment on his bike. The policeman seemed to realise no offence had been committed and advised him to change the appearance of his bike which he didn't and as far as I know was only stopped the once. It must have been a boring police shift.
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Polarises opinion in the BMW bike community. Wannabe cops are looked down upon with some disdain by some - I occasionally Hi Viz up depending on weather conditions and the distance I ride. Bad enough owning a high powered 3 series Touring in white...
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I had ski racks on a few cars, they can be mistaken for light bars. My Green Goddess had blue lights and sirens, that was a fun three months scattering the traffic, assisted by a traffic car! Remembering to stop for red lights needed a bit of concentration when back in my car. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 29 Jul 18 at 15:30
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Missed the edit
We had 24 hour cover for the Goddesses by a REME mechanic in a Landover workshop with a blue light but no siren. Legal?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 29 Jul 18 at 15:39
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www.devonlive.com/news/emergency-courier-driving-105mph-deliver-1820192#
A less "weighted" report. The speeding charge was rightly thrown out. The Vascaar in the car wasn't calibrated and they didn't pace the car - one would imagine the speedometer was calibrated - maybe they had no evidence of calibration on that. The evidence of the opinion of the Officers (one corroborating the other) was shaky ground to say the least. There is case-law on this that the two Officers must independently asses the speed - sitting in the passenger seat isn't good enough. Ref. Mark's point about an ambulance, the Judge decided that in this case the bike was an "ambulance" or being used for the purposes of an "ambulance" at the time it was stopped so was entitled to break the speed limits. Blood Bike riders are assessed advanced riders by the way. The CPS should never have taken the speeding case on, but to prove the alleged breach of blues and twos laws they had to as they had to prove the excessive speed. Poor decision making by the Police and CPS - proves that Justice can be served (not capital J) and that common sense prevails.
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Long memory with some things...There was CPS circulation via the Home Office that they would not prosecute speeding offences where the sole evidence was uncorroborated evidence from a Police Officer. Maybe they forgot.
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Vague memory says that doctors can use a flashing green light. Is that true or am I mixing up my countries?
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They use them in the UK, rare to see but they are knocking about. Whether they are strictly legal I don't know.
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They're legal, but they cannot break speed limits or red lights etc.
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>> They're legal, but they cannot break speed limits or red lights etc.
I understood that ambulances are not authorised to break speed limits or jump lights, simply that they will not usually be prosecuted for doing so.
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All Ambulances show a steady blue light to the rear when B&Ts are on so if they trip a speed camera it can be shown that they were on a job. Ultimately it's down to the driver, they're accountable for what happens. If they jump a red light (I witnessed one the other day) and something happens they may get prosecuted.
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>> Vague memory says that doctors can use a flashing green light. Is that true or
>> am I mixing up my countries?
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Yes they can.
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Section 87 of the 1984 Road Regulation Act is quite clear. “No statutory provision imposing a speed limit on motor vehicles shall apply to any vehicle on an occasion when it is being used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes.â€
Note those words. They do not apply only to fire engines, ambulances or police cars but to any motor vehicle being used for those specific purposes.
MD.
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That was the legal argument...whether the bike was an "ambulance" or not. It clearly was.
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>> That was the legal argument...whether the bike was an "ambulance" or not. It clearly was.
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I am finding the police often put a personal spin on their actions rather than sticking to the book.
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The 24 HR emergency GP system based at the hospital use Mitsubishi 4x4s with green light bars on the roof and a big "DOCTOR" sticker along the sides. I assume these are NHS vehicles.
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We have a pair of white Tiguans parked outside our ED with 'Doctor on-call' and green lights on the roof, probably used by the Urgent Care Centre.
Whenever we are asked to send instruments between hospitals (NHS & Private) we use a private taxi, must have been quite small because most sterile instrument sets are held in large metal trays or baskets so they can go through an autoclave plus (more importantly) any set going between any hospital has to be re-sterilised before use in case of compromise during transit.... thing is the minimum autoclave turn-around time is 3-5 hours!
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We carry HSDU (Minor Operation Kits) to hospitals and surgeries, we also carry the "dirty"ones back. One assumes it's safe to do so.
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R.P. - clean ones should be OK, dirty ones in our Day Surgery theatres are stacked in a sealed metal trolley, theatre trays are wrapped in heavy duty paper that allows the steam to permeate to sterilise the instruments inside.
Dirty kit is a health hazard until at least first stage washed (blood and sharp bits of kit are a bad combination!).
Maybe the smaller minor-op kits (used for removing stitches) in the paper bags (they used to be red and white striped) are OK if then sealed in plastic, there must be some guidelines in your Trust for this.
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Our dirties are boxed in plastic boxes - never opened one for a look. Too scared..
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>> Bad enough owning a high powered 3 series Touring in white...
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Our local plods have an unmarked grey one.
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>>Many years ago a colleague used a big bike with a full white fairing, he wore a white helmet and high visibility jacket.
I'm sure I've told this before.
Back in the mid '70s I fitted a white, Avon fairing to an old Honda that already had a white top box. The number of SMIDSYs dropped to zero and cars would simply pull over on my approach. I was tempted to put a black, plastic 4" circle on the front of the fairing, but decided against it as it wasn't necessary. I had no intention of imitating anyone. A fairing came up cheaply just as the weather turned colder for my twenty mile commute.
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I had a white Granada as a company car, complete with an early mobile telephone (big box in the boot) with a prominent aerial.
It made for unimpeded motorway journeys.
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I had a 3.0 l Omega MV6 with standard fit HID lights. They were quite unusual at the time, especially on the M4, except plod used them.
Seemed to open up the traffic somewhat (at night time). Especially as I used to speed around quite quickly in those days.
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I came through the centre of Salisbury recently on the return from the Eastbourne trip. There was an unmarked Merc’ ML in flat dark blue, blacked out windows, slightly darkened screen darting all over the place on blues and twos. Could just make out two guys in the front, both in dark blue T shirts which seemed to have been colour matched to the car!
Lots of plod everywhere and still guys in protective suits scouring the park.
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Assuming the rider was driving sensibly and not showing off or acting the goat, yes, heavy handed or plain nasty. Choosing to interpret the law so as to report him (he could easily have taken the view that the rider was performing an ambulance service) improved nobody's life, righted no wrongs and potentially caused harm - for what sounds like a grudge or plain spite.
As usual, taken at face value - best always to be aware of course that sometimes there is more to these stories.
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Taken at face value I would have just continued and worried about the flak later.
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Just another slant to this story.
I mentioned a couple of weeks ago about me and a mate riding around North Yorkshire.
On the way back we stopped at Wetherby Services and I went and queued up for a take away coffee. While standing there in full riding gear including 'high viz' vest I felt a nudge and turned round. I was faced by a male fully dressed in leather trousers and full 'high viz' jacket covered in various patches. A quick scan gave me the impression that he was a Blood Biker.
He points down at my feet and says "Your lace is undone".
I'm on the ball here :) and am aware that my bike boots don't have laces so didn't fall for it.
A brief conversation ensued to which he revealed he was from the North East and had been to a family wedding in Manchester.
Gets the coffees and goes back outside.He comes out and goes to his bike. Full livery, all the dayglow and a light on a pole to the rear (just like a proper response motorcycle). Really??????
So I can only describe this individual as a "Wanabee". If they are working and engaged on a 'run' fine (subject to full response training and assessment) but this guy was clearly not engaged as such but wanted to play Ambulances. Whether at some point during the journey he had used any of his emergency equipment I don't know but why go to a wedding looking like that?
Which brings me to another incident which occurred last year. I'll try and keep this brief so will miss some of the finer detail..
Again riding my bike I came up behind a Discovery which turned out to be one of these private First Aid type vehicles you see at concerts and other outdoor activities. Fully marked up but its age gave away the fact that it was not a NHS vehicle.
As I followed it an tried to overtake on two occasions the driver pulled out on me, clearly not using his mirrors. It reached speeds of 90 MPH (60 max and a short 40MPH stretch). Crossed double whites twice because it was carrying too much speed and operated its emergency siren and lighting to get through an area of congestion. This was an example of particularly poor and at times dangerous driving and I felt action needed to be taken. Bearing in mind I'm no longer a warranted PC.
It eventually pulled into some public toilets and I spoke to the driver. He was totally indifferent and of course I had to be careful how I announced myself. Anyway he climbed back in and I informed him I would be reporting the full facts regarding the offences he had committed.
I produced a full written statement, maps etc etc, and liaised with our local Prosecutions team who, taking into account the severity of the offence, my previous role, experience and standard of evidence submitted made the decision to move to a prosecution.
So another example of someone not engaged on an 'emergency' abusing any exemptions they may have. Again a "Wanabee"
That's just two examples. Sometimes the question has to be asked regarding the true motivation of some of these individuals.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Tue 31 Jul 18 at 00:48
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There are good and bad apples in all walks of life.
One of our customers is a private ambulance co that covers events and fairs. We supply bits and bobs for them. I visited them and all of the ambulances were under 3 years old. All vehicles are tracked with reports generated if they speed, when blues and turned on etc.
All of the frontline staff were qualified paramedics with relevant driver training.
I was chatting to one of the very nice* paramedics over a mug of Tetley and she said that it is very well paid work compared to the NHS and whilst not as busy it can be very stressful as in the NHS they get time to think about what may happen on the way to a shout as they are given details by the dispatcher. At a sporting event the casualty is usually just presented to them with no mental prep time.
Depending on the event, incident and cover, they will transfer the patient to a called NHS ambulance or can transfer the patent themselves using blues and twos.
*It's the uniform that does it :-)
Last edited by: Driver on Tue 31 Jul 18 at 01:29
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There are always people in those sorts of roles where even the slightest whiff of authority goes to their heads. Best ignored.
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Heavy handed or not? - Bromptonaut
