Been mithering son-in-law (via daughter) to get the Jazz we passed on to him serviced and MOT'd Found out today that he's had it MOT'd "to see if there was anything wrong with it". It passed. Apparently he doesn't see any need to get anything else done to it.
Daughter is surprised that I'm gobsmacked by this. She tells me that in her NHS team of about 25 people, with cars in the 3-10yr old age range, she's the only one that she knows who gets her car serviced. The others do the same as her husband - annual MOT and a trip to the garage to fix anything that breaks.
Amongst "non-car" people, is this pretty normal these days?
|
>>Amongst "non-car" people, is this pretty normal these days?
Yep!
Both my daughters seem to think an MOT is a service. I think I've convinced my eldest that it ain't, but she now seems to think a main dealer service is necessary for a service history on a four-year-old car.
I know of many car owners who seem to believe that buying cars is like buying tins of beans at a supermarket. I've given up. Look at Honest John's website. I've a local radio station that deals with consumer problems. A large proportion of them's buyers who buy at a distance and then find problems.
|
|
Perhaps the reason might be that with such long mileage linked servicing intervals for, say, oil and filter changes, some people who don't do big mileages tend to feel regular services are not as necessary?
|
>> Perhaps the reason might be that with such long mileage linked servicing intervals for, say,
>> oil and filter changes, some people who don't do big mileages tend to feel regular
>> services are not as necessary?
I think there's some truth in that. Also, modern cars with their plastic covered engine bays and complex electronics, actively discourage any form of user maintenance, which promotes a sense of detachment from the mechanical aspects of the car.
There's also the fact that modern fuel injection and engineering tolerances allow engines to run well, even if neglected. I once drove a 50,000 mile Focus that had never been serviced. Quite honestly, it didn't feel any different to the religiously serviced one I drove on a daily basis.
|
I must admit I once read what I got for my money, made me wonder too ( I am being a little t-i-c btw)
But it struck me, especially on an older car where you're no longer trying to maintain a warranty, just get oil and cambelt changes done at the appropriate time and fix anything else as it breaks. From memory much of the manufacturer service spec is stuff like "check webbing on seat belts" "check operation of indicator bulbs", "inspect engine for leaks" and very little of real substance.
When they used to break down more it would be easier to sell the concept of servicing but many seem pretty cast iron these days.
|
>> I must admit I once read what I got for my money, made me wonder
>> too ( I am being a little t-i-c btw)
>>
I think we all wonder that - dealer servicing is an absolute rip-off. But there are much cheaper places.
>> But it struck me, especially on an older car where you're no longer trying to
>> maintain a warranty, just get oil and cambelt changes done at the appropriate time..
I wonder how many have the cambelt done? Looked at 6-7yr old Golf Twists on Autotrader after daughters was written off. Around 30 for sale and only two mentioned cambelt change - which at approaching £500 on a £5K car you'd be stupid to omit mentioning if you knew it had been done.
Plus if you're of the mentality of not having cars fixed until they break, you're bot going to spend several hundred quid on it as a preventative measure.
|
>> I know of many car owners who seem to believe that buying cars is like
>> buying tins of beans at a supermarket.
Why isn't it/shouldn't it be?
|
For many cars, the list of things to be checked at a service is very similar to the MOT list. Plus a few things to be changed, of course - oil, filter, etc.
As I only do a low mileage on my Kia, the oil is only changed every other service - and the intermediate one looks very like an MOT.
|
Maybe with the high number of PCP and leasing cars around, where there is a high probability the car will go back to the dealer after 3 years, drivers aren't even really going to experience the need to service.
Also I think unless you have the facilities to do a service i.e flat drive (an actual drive!), axle stands, decent tool kit, then it's easier to go to a garage... I mean I just can't see many owners rolling under their cars at the weekend to check they've greased their nipples!
|
I'm pretty fastidious with oil/fluid/filters on the FRV, fix noises when they appear (rear drop links usually), and look at the brakes annually.
I rely on the MOT to pick up suspension/steering/corrosion issues
|
Cars are not designed for "servicing" What can you actually service these days? not much.
Oils, fluids & filters is it. The rest gets changed when it breaks or wears out.
And belts of course
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 26 Aug 18 at 09:59
|
I remember an occasion when I borrowed a friend's car for some reason or another. The handling felt unusually sloppy and it occurred to me to check the tyre pressures. All four were seriously under inflated. On pumping them up to where they should have been, the car was fine.
When I returned the car, I gently mentioned that he might want to keep a eye on the tyres as they had been dangerously low. He just sort of shrugged and said he thought they got checked at the MOT.
They live among us.
|
"They live among us."
Whats more scary s that they drive among us including motorway speeds.
Always amazed me when teaching traffic law how little attention people paid to their tyres in respect of both cursory visual and pressure checks.
|
I think the OP should tell his son-in-law that £125 on a service is a lot less than a new engine, a bump because the brakes were poorly adjusted etc etc
Talking of servicing I am putting my trusty 6 year old CRV in for a major service @ my local Indie.
All fluids to be changed along with filters, wheels off & brakes fettled ..........it's not going to be cheap but a lot cheaper than a new car!
I decided 12 mths ago to buy a new CRV - the arrival has been delayed & the first are due in September. An eye watering £37K for the equivalent of my 6 year CRV that has been 100% reliable - tyres, pad, wipers & servicing..... T/I offers for it are around £11K+ - so a quick £26K spend out my sons' futures inheritances. The new car has more gizmos, it is slightly faster & more MPG but I cannot see me getting any real extra value out of the car except losing £10K in the 1st year's depreciation!
In 12 months time I might evaluate the new car again. But for now it is hanging on to a good car.
|
Our old 05 plate CRV (petrol auto) is now passed 200k miles - SK05LXD on MOT check if you want to see what to look out for!
|
>>SK05LXD on MOT check if you want to see what to look out for!
Wear & tear really - a quick check before MoT woul & probably never checked anythingd have eliminated the light bulb issues/tyre worn etc etc issues. Things like anti roll bar / rubber mounts etc etc is just rubber getting old.
The actual car seems to be a good one.
I sold my Mazda Xedos after 14.5 years - no issues other than calipers, rubber bushes, sticking pad, a couple of belts, battery @ 12 yrs, 1 exhaust, handbrake too many clicks to engage fully..................in total I spent under £1000 on maintenance at my local Indie in the whole time I owned the car. Tin worm around rear suspension was fettled & I sold it a year later. The engine went bang when the buyer put on another 20K in 12 mths and never serviced it & probably never looked at it - it was pristine looking when I sold it for £500 and look like a skip with 6 months later when I passed it going the other way.
|
When I got my A3 MOT'd in 2017 it initially failed.
Reason(s) for failure
- Nearside Front Inner Tyre has a cut in excess of the requirements deep enough to reach the ply or cords sidewall (4.1.D.1a)
Advisory notice item(s)
- plastic under trays fitted.
- Offside Front tyre outer sidewall cut no cords visible.
- Nearside Front Tyre worn close to the legal limit (4.1.E.1)
- Offside Front Tyre worn close to the legal limit (4.1.E.1)
Two weeks earlier it was up on the ramps at the same place because one tyre had a slow puncture... Fixed. But they checked all tyres.
The cut was only visible high up on ramps. But the reason for posting was the advisory on the tyres. Both fronts close to limit and the other had a cut too. But lease company replaced only one.
I dug in my heels and left it with them for a few days whilst I got them all to see sense. I got a hire car in the meantime (payable by my employer). The cost to replace the other tyre early was pro-rata and was about £20 I think. Hire car cost more than that. I even said I'd pay but I was not allowed to do that.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 26 Aug 18 at 22:11
|
Just checked the MOT status for the last few cars which suggest the Mazda6 diesel was scrapped at 10 years old. I bet they didn't keep an eye on the oil levels rising and the engine was damaged - stupid DPF design. When it was replaced in 2011 it had about 46,000 miles on it. It had about another 50,000 miles before the 2016 MOT.
The car before that a Mondeo diesel lasted a bit better. But failed sometime before July 2015 and July 2016. So might have made say 12 years old and 122,000+ miles.
The two after that are still probably running. Unless something happened recently.
|
>> I think the OP should tell his son-in-law that £125 on a service is a
>> lot less than a new engine, a bump because the brakes were poorly adjusted etc
>> etc
>>
Funnily enough I said about the engine to daughter, and she said "how often do you hear of engines failing?"
And don't get me going on brakes! Just had a row with both Honda and their dealer as they didn't identify a stuck rear brake pad on daughters 3yr old Jazz, and sent her away telling her the car was fine. Brakes don't even get a squirt of brake cleaner these days.
The trouble is this kind of thing supports the view that it's not worth servicing cars.
|
>> I decided 12 mths ago to buy a new CRV - the arrival has been
>> delayed & the first are due in September. An eye watering £37K for the equivalent
>> of my 6 year CRV that has been 100% reliable - tyres, pad, wipers &
>> servicing..... T/I offers for it are around £11K+ - so a quick £26K spend out
>> my sons' futures inheritances. The new car has more gizmos, it is slightly faster &
>> more MPG but I cannot see me getting any real extra value out of the
>> car except losing £10K in the 1st year's depreciation!
>>
Unless you get a hefty discount, that's a car where a PCP or lease would probably make sense unless you do a lot of miles.
Despite my irritations with Honda, my sister-in-law loves her CRV's, but she really didn't get on with the petrol one she got a couple of years ago and has just done a deal to change it for a diesel current model, as the new one will be petrol only.
Having said that, one of my daughters just ordered a 1 litre 3 cyl SEAT Ateca (like a Tiguan), so that'll be interesting!
Last edited by: Bill Payer on Sun 26 Aug 18 at 15:04
|
>> Maybe with the high number of PCP and leasing cars around, where there is a
>> high probability the car will go back to the dealer after 3 years, drivers aren't
>> even really going to experience the need to service.
>>
Most cars won't manage 3 years without a service, if the schedule is followed. There's usually a 2 year time limit, if the mileage or other criteria aren't reached.
SWMBO's MINI Clubman needed an oil change at a year old and 8000 miles because it turns out it had been built a year before we took delivery and the service interval counts from build date.
|
>> >> Maybe with the high number of PCP and leasing cars around, where there is a
>> >> high probability the car will go back to the dealer after 3 years, drivers aren't
>> >> even really going to experience the need to service.
>> >>
If you return a PCP or lease car with incomplete service history you'll get spanked with a hefty penalty.
>>
>> SWMBO's MINI Clubman needed an oil change at a year old and 8000 miles because
>> it turns out it had been built a year before we took delivery and the
>> service interval counts from build date.
>>
Service indicators are supposed to be reset at PDI.
Last edited by: Bill Payer on Sun 26 Aug 18 at 19:47
|
>> Service indicators are supposed to be reset at PDI.
>>
True, but service schedules can change from year to year as models are updated and specifications change.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 26 Aug 18 at 20:30
|
My Superb is estimated to need it's first service for oil/inspection as:
- Oil: 11500 miles and 395 days
- Inspection: 13200 miles and 386 days
Why the number of days differ is a puzzle but it's been out of skew from the start. But 386 days takes the first service to 2 years and 3 weeks exactly.
This car like the last will certainly be sold at auction having had one service.
|
OK not ever having a car on PCP I didn't know about the fine for not servicing.
I was more hinting that some of the drivers maybe were more interested in having a shiny new car than anything else.
|
|
Two colleagues have cars on 24 month leases.... Possibility they will be returned without being serviced. Could have original tyres on them too.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 26 Aug 18 at 21:55
|
>> Service indicators are supposed to be reset at PDI.
That was my view also. I had a bit of a moan, as we weren't expecting to service the car more than once during our tenure. Thankfully, the dealer was brilliant and changed the oil free of charge without any argument at all.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 27 Aug 18 at 02:11
|
It's commonplace, almost standard, now, and I think with reasonable justification. As Zero said, there's not much to service anyway.
The things that do go wrong usually won't get picked up in the course of ordinary servicing, and an annual MOT check seems the best way of spotting them. Our daughter's Yaris has just failed its MOT on a broken rear spring. It's happened in the last 3 months, possibly caused a somewhat noisier suspension, didn't affect the handling, and didn't seem to matter much. Obviously needs fixing, but nothing to lose sleep over - the garage man says modern springs break all the time.
I don't actually think it's a particularly bad policy even with old cars. I do the obvious servicing like oil, fluids, etc at regular intervals, but otherwise rely on an astute ear and a feel for the car to detect anything that's not running quite right.
That I think is what is lacking in modern drivers - lack of awareness of anything, and an assumption that nothing ever needs attending to.
Now that my two oldest cars are MOT-exempt I'll give them a sort of MOT-style look over every year. They've only ever failed on things that are pretty obvious on careful inspection, but it's always been easier to let the MOT man with his ramp do the looking, not that they are unspottable.
A lot of servicing in the past was more of a sort of religious observance. I don't remember greasable track rod ends lasting any longer than non-servicable ones, so all you do is wait until it wears and then fit a new one.
|
|
Another problem is that cars have been generally reliable for long enough for a generation of non motoring anorak owners to develop. My eldest granddaughter is learning to drive and in chatting to her dad it was revealed that she had managed to get a clutch to the point of smelling a bit hot. We concluded that you can't have mechanical sympathy if you don't know how a car works. I am sure this also applies to servicing. Many people don't realise the importance of fluid levels and changes. I met my daughter (mum of the above GD) for lunch recently, she arrived announcing " There is a red light on in the car" the dipstick was dry, and it took a litre of oil to get it to the half way mark. She was lucky, her diesel FRV still runs well.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 28 Aug 18 at 17:35
|
We use a small independent place for MOTs and repairs. In fact the Seicento passed it's MOT today with only two advisories... both have been there for a while and nothing to worry about (e.g. number plate delamination... probably need one next year).
The car doesn't do many miles so we service probably every other year. And when we do it's the same time as the MOT. They always do the MOT first and then service it.
Glad it passed because I put a full tank of petrol in it last week :-)
|
Old Navy.... my step-son has had a fair few cars over the years and they've been fairly reliable. All have been petrol cars and the engines sounded fine. After say 12 months in his ownership I can only assume he's not topped up oil because some have sounded like a bag of spanners.
But he still thinks an oil warning light means low oil rather than low oil pressure.
|
|
I gave up on instilling any mechanical sense into my daughters long ago, that is their husbands problem now. I still got caught out by the low oil level lunch though!
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 28 Aug 18 at 17:47
|
|
The only time I drive the Seicento is to fill it up with petrol. Not so often but often enough to spot things... like the windscreen wipers rubbers needed replacing followed soon after by the windscreen wiper arm was loose and wobbly in use.
|
>>I gave up on instilling any mechanical sense into my daughters long ago,
I have the same situation ( she has no "other half" ) and is not interested in her ancient Yaris.
It is treated just as white goods.
No maintenance or MoT unless I sort it.
That's what Dads are for ???? I just cannot ignore the situation.
|
>>It is treated just as white goods.
But they are. Exactly that.
And if I was going to get all fascinated over a car it's not going to be some currently mass produced metal box that I use as a daily driver.
It's not like the days when you picked up your car from a service and it ran better. Fluids and filters for 100,000 miles or two. That's about it, isn't it? And the occasional software upgrade I guess.
|
>> >>It is treated just as white goods.
>>
>> But they are. Exactly that.
>>
TIC?
It is thought by many that they are but I suggest that very few white goods need regular servicing like fluid changing.
I guess changing the brushes on a washing machine is one replacement that might be needed but there are not many examples of " life threatening failures" in household white goods.
How many folks using a manual gearbox car have any idea or are taught about kicking the clutch in to maintain some progress if the engine stops.
I had a cambelt snap and could then coast to a safe stopping location
In the same way moving a manual gearbox car a short distance, put it in gear and use the starter motor.
Yes I know this cannot sensibly be tried out.
No, it more important on the test to point to parts of the engine, never to be viewed ever again.
|
>> >>It is treated just as white goods.
>>
>> But they are. Exactly that.
>>
>TIC?
No, not really. They are a utility and I see no issue with treating them as such.
They require scheduled fluid and filter changes, perhaps a rare belt change and occasional software updates.
Modern cars are simply not the same as the carburettor'd, mechanically ignited machines of yester-year.
My wife just bought a Nissan Murano*. Fluid and filters for 5 years / 60,000 miles , Timing belt at 90,000 miles.
No points, plugs, timing, tappets, fuel mixture, carb balancing etc. etc. Nothing.
Stuff needs replacing when it wears out or breaks - brake pads for example, and there's lights and messages to warn of just about anything I can think of.
No need to know how to "kick the clutch in", coast, move it on the starter motor or anything else. It breaks, they come and un-break it. Job done.
White goods.
*not my fault, she didn't ask me, she just came home with it a week or so ago.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 29 Aug 18 at 02:48
|
>>
>>
>> No need to know how to "kick the clutch in", coast, move it on the
>> starter motor or anything else. It breaks, they come and un-break it. Job done.
>>
It's useful to be able to coast onto the hard shoulder instead of coming to a halt in the fast lane?
|
>> >>I gave up on instilling any mechanical sense into my daughters long ago,
>> I have the same situation ( she has no "other half" ) and is not
>> interested in her ancient Yaris.
>> It is treated just as white goods.
>> No maintenance or MoT unless I sort it.
>> That's what Dads are for ???? I just cannot ignore the situation.
>>
I agree, I always made sure my two had safe and legal cars, fortunately they both now have husbands with technical knowledge. The FRV obviously slipped through the net, the worst one I have had to deal with in years has been an empty screenwasher bottle on a winter visit.
The predictive thingie tried to make that screensaver! Stupid machine.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 30 Aug 18 at 11:23
|
>> I gave up on instilling any mechanical sense into my daughters long ago, that is
>> their husbands problem now. I still got caught out by the low oil level lunch
>> though!
>>
One of my son-in-laws (the other one to the one in my original post) thought the spanner warning the car needed a service meant it was low on oil, so he put some in - without checking the level, of course. And he's a pretty handy bloke - just has a complete blind-spot with cars.
|
>> >>
>> the spanner warning the car needed a service meant
>>
A spanner's the last thing you need for a routine service. It's a notorious way of wrecking an oil drain plug.
|
>> >> >>
>> >> the spanner warning the car needed a service meant
>> >>
>>
>> A spanner's the last thing you need for a routine service. It's a notorious
>> way of wrecking an oil drain plug.
You socket to them.
|
>> You socket to them.
He's all torx.
|
>> I do the obvious servicing like oil, fluids, etc at regular intervals,
You're doing more than many are. I'm suggesting that it seems common to not even change the oil now and again.
|
|
I must be the ultimate anorak, the fluids in our car are checked most weekends, tyre pressures monthly although the car has TPMS. I bought five years warranty, servicing and AA cover for far less than the annual cost. I intend to keep this one long term so it is worth looking after it. Not that takes much effort these days.
|
>> I must be the ultimate anorak, the fluids in our car are checked most weekends
Pretty much what I do. Screenwash needing filling serves as a reminder.
OTOH The Lad called me a few months ago, while he was still delivering Pizza, to say he had an oil related light coming on when cornering. First question - when did you last check your oil? Answer was on my drive six months previous.
Was quite reluctant to break his shift to get oil from Halford's. Only my point about red hot bearings and £n for a new engine persuaded him.
This weekend while he was home he accepted my help to sort a failed brake light. Quick run round other checks showed oil less than 5mm above min on his Pug 107's dipstick. Hopefully 250ml added will keep it OK until he's home again in late September.
|
|
I have a recollection about a rule in the American emmision regulations about the car remaining in spec for emmisions for 50K miles from new without lifting the bonnet (hood). I believe this had something to do with the introduction of long life iridium spark plugs.
|
I think you're right. In the mid 90s I bought a new Pontiac which needed only oil & filter changes for 100k miles.
|
Friend just put his three year old Hyundai i30 through its MOT. Passed with advisories on brakes.
So took his car to National who did it for something like £100 PLUS £30 for diagnostics.
I asked him what "diagnostics" was on brake pads but he didn't know - just paid it as it sounded alright!!!
|
>> Friend just put his three year old Hyundai i30 through its MOT. Passed with advisories
>> on brakes.
>>
The lack of servicing done on brakes these days does my head in!
I'm sure many us will have spend years stripping and cleaning brakes, but garages don't even squirt brake cleaner at them now. Honda dealer told us we should jet-wash the callipers.
|
Take the Ram; I don't touch the brakes unless something happens - judder, warning light, strange noise etc. and then it goes to the garage to have new pads & discs.
What else should I be doing?
Oh, I tend to look at the brake fluid level if I happen to be putting water in the screen wash.
I keep an eye on the tyres because of the conditions I drive in sometimes.
It absolutely never, not ever, goes in for a service though it gets regular oil & oil filter changes. Obviously broken stuff gets fixed.
What, in reality, does it miss out on that it needs?
|
> What, in reality, does it miss out on that it needs?
>>
Air and pollen filter change won't hurt in the same way oil and oil filter are changed. It obviously won't blow up if you don't, but still a good idea to change them.
|
MB main dealers used to offer a '7+' service for cars, er, more than seven years old. It was around 140 quid for oil and filter change and a quick 'looking at'.
I thought it was good value. Nowadays all I can get is an 'A' service, which is basically the same as the 7+, but with lots of 'check condition of', which I can still do myself. So I have gone back to the indie that I used with the previous car.
|
I probably remember the air filter once a year or so which is ok.
The pollen filters are always getting forgotten and replaced far too late. Not really worth servicing just for that though.
|
|
No of course not, although wouldn't they get changed when the oil does?
|
I suppose so, I don't really know.
I'll ask the garage I use when I am next down there to see if they ever change them.
|
>> What, in reality, does it miss out on that it needs?
>>
I guess things like:
Hinges and catches being lubricated (bonnet especially important)
Aux belt condition
Brake fluid condition
Coolant freezing point (and lifetime)
With brakes, I'd like them stripped and cleaned - over time you get one pad working more than the other so they'll wear unevenly and need replacing early. The disc face that's getting less braking effort will tend to get rust spreading across it.
I can't recall ever topping up brake fluid unless I've been doing brake work.
If you're keeping an eye on things as you go then that's fine - as I said earlier, a lot of cars probably never have their bonnets opened between MOTs.
|
>> Aux belt condition
Nope - changed on a schedule
>> Brake fluid condition
Nope changed on a schedule
>> Coolant freezing point (and lifetime)
Nope changed on a schedule.
None of that stuff needs to be checked, just changed at the proscribed interval.
|
>> None of that stuff needs to be checked, just changed at the proscribed interval.
>>
So that's servicing then. The thread's about people who don't service!
|
>> So that's servicing then. The thread's about people who don't service!
The proscribed interval for coolant is 60000 miles or 5 years.
|
>>
>> The proscribed interval for coolant is 60000 miles or 5 years.
>>
Mine is 125,000 miles or ten years, a bit academic, it might out last me, and certainly my ownership of the car!
|
>>
>> Mine is 125,000 miles or ten years, a bit academic, it might out last me,
>> and certainly my ownership of the car!
>>
Irv Gordon, the Volvo mileage record holder, says in his experience windscreens only last about a million miles, as the glass becomes worn by the wiper blades.
|
>> The proscribed interval for coolant is 60000 miles or 5 years.
>>
IIRC my 98 Mondeo coolant change was 10 years and yes it did last that long and a few more years and no the coolant was never changed.
|
>>I don't touch the brakes unless something happens - judder, warning light, strange noise etc. and then it goes to the garage to have new pads & discs.
That is fine for someone who is interested, attentive or concerned about the possible outcome.
It is the vast majority of folks on the road who have no idea, no interest, no concerns, have never RTFM and leave it to others to make them aware of problems that just drive til it breaks or does not brake.
Spend money before it breaks - Phah!! that is for stupid folks.
We all share the road with them.
|
|
Fortunately few collisions are a result of mechanical problems. Nearly all are caused by driver error.
|
One common failing on my current car is the rear calipers seizing after about 70k miles.
This is due to the brakes not really being used a lot as the engine braking is really powerful and always assists, and also the brake pads never wear out. I think this is common on EVs.
This isn't a service item and my "little man" was reluctant when I told him I was getting an EV, as he is scared of getting a shock. So I'll find an indie who is prepared to do it. I believe it's not much of a job with the right jacking equipment etc.
My service seems mostly pretty cheap on this car as they don't have so much mechanical stuff to tinker with. But the 5 year one includes (or not, depending on which dealer you use) a coolant replacement for the battery coolant. This is a multi-hour job - the coolant itself isn't too dear but the job needs frequent attention so sucks up labour charges. Someone told me it could be over £400.
|
Pedant alert!
It's prescribed, not proscribed, which means forbidden.
8o)
|
Servicing - many people not bothering? - bathtub tom
