We will shortly be getting rid of our works 12 year old Transit and I remember when we got rid of an old patient transport ambulance, someone bought it and converted it into a camper van. He told me the basics were simple - you just get the internals from a scrap caravan and design things yourself.
Another work acquaintance has just bought a new camper van after they had cleared their house mortgage. has taken it on a 10 year loan which apparently is quite common as it is a second home rather than a vehicle as such.
I then look on autotrader and see that where the van itself would be pennies, the fact that it has been converted to a campervan puts it up to silly money. Just saw an 11 plate Vivaro for around £18k!
Anyone got camper vans or experience of them? Are they moneypits or do you actually not lose much at all based on the used prices?
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I have some very limited experience, which is of a mate who loves his "toys" and once had a camper van. It was a ready made one, bought second hand at a dealers, and he lost five thou or thereabouts over a year or so - once he managed to shift it.
My experience of caravanning in the past has been that it;s quite a nice way to holiday, if you like that kind of life, and particularly with younger children, but not always startlingly cheap. Then you have annual costs of insurance, maintenance, and in my case storage which mount up. With a camper van you;d need to know how you were going to get around when you are "there", as packing all your gubbins up each time you want to pop into town would be a pain - as would parking in a busy supermarket car park.
If you are thinking as an investment, I don't believe it would be a good one. If you are thinking of a do'er-upper hobby which might not cost you too much then so long as your are handy enough to do the work yourself it's probably quite a fun project.
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As reported here we had a 2014 Fiat AutoTrail for three years - We had it new at hugely discounted price (I think it may have been the previous year's model) we used it, but maybe not as much as we should/could have used it more - didn't help that we were caught up in house move from Nov 2016 to May 2017 and then had a lot of work at the house and less space to keep it at the new property. We sold the van via the supplying dealer on August Bank Holiday 2017 - we didn't lose a lot on the deal as it turned out. My mind has wandered back towards one again - once we're down to a single dog I may sell the Beemer and buy a VW camper (with passenger seats) and use it as a second vehicle rather than the expense of a third rarely used van.
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Ex-colleague bought some old van or other to turn into a camper. He spent a couple of years doing it. Every time we talked about it he would say he wanted to go to "insert some pretty place here" for the occasional weekend etc but never seemed to find the time to do it.
To the best of my knowledge, now two years since he completed it, he's actually used it once, when he stayed overnight in a pub car park after a drinking session somewhere and they came and shouted at him the next morning.
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I did some research on campervans few years back but then gave up the idea due to following reasons:
1. It is a money pit. If you buy old, plenty of things to go wrong. My next door neighbor has a VW Camper and 180 days a year I see him lying down at bottom of camper to fix something! If you buy new, problem will be taken care during warranty period but cost of repair thereafer will be high.
2. I could not imagine myself feeling safe in sleeping in camper in middle of nowhere. Mostly you'd be confined to campsites. So, it is not as much freedom as you think.
3. Most campers don't have toilets. You need motorhome for that. Even if you manage to slot a toilet in a camper, it is only viable if you are travelling with your spouse/partner only. Just not possible if you have kid(s).
4. It is claustrophobic - young kids will go mad if you keep them inside camper vans for long.
5. Booking hotels and using flights offers more freedom and often way cheaper than hassle of maintaining a camper van.
6. Whether to buy LHD or RHD is a big confusion.
7. My wife hated it. This is #1 reason why I had to discard the idea :-)
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Friend of a friend paid £24K for a 15 year old Fiat based 4 berth - dampish smell - he had several expensive repairs in that time.
Sold it 3 years later for £16K & bought a newer one at £36K - newer & plusher but just last week a new leisure battery was needed when the caravan filled with fumes from a faulty battery - £135.
Seems a money pit as site fees, depreciation, repairs, diesel, RFL/Insurances all add up - they used it every 2/3 weeks form now until end September - probably £5k-£6K per year all in.
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>> I did some research on campervans few years back but then gave up the idea
>> due to following reasons:
I'd agree with a lot of this but not all.
While I'd not park anywhere I didn't feel safe I'd feel pretty safe in middle of nowhere in UK or France and sites don't need to be confining. Movi is right though about toilets. Easy enough for a bloke to point Percy at the pine cones but females find outdoor weeing more of a problem.
We have a Thetford cassette loo in the caravan which is pretty much only used for (as one of the caravan sales people put it) having a tinkle in the night. Having once mistakenly booked a site with no facilities it's perfectly feasible to have a poo in one but the tank emptying is much more involved.....
Even in a big tent once the kids were past 7 or 8 trying to get them to settle while Mum and Dad were still up was an uphill battle.
Another issue with van conversions is insulation and heating. We have 240 volt electrics and option of gas heating in caravan and it's thoroughly insulated; snug even when it's -5 outside. Trying to keep a Transit warm in winter without insulating sides and roof would probably be impossible and would certainly cosy a chunk.
We thought about a camper van before we bought our Xplore 304 caravan but decided that packing everything up to go anywhere was going to be a PITA. Lost count of times I'd left one kid with Mrs B setting up stuff while other went with me in car to get bread etc. And we'd have to use camper as second car - most are too high to go in car parks in town.
For where we went when kids were kids hotels/flights would be more costly even if they were practicable but appreciate that's horses/courses. Now it's just two of us shorter breaks and cities appeal and economics are different again.
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... didn't have you down as quite as much of a wimp, Simon..... ;-)
>>
>> While I'd not park anywhere I didn't feel safe I'd feel pretty safe in middle
>> of nowhere in UK or France and sites don't need to be confining.
"Wild Camping" in the UK is largely confined to remote Scotland, unless you want to be really anti-social, but endorsed locations for motorhomes/campervans are widespread across Europe, and if you are moderately selective, are better than many campsites (location, ambience, etc)
>>Movi is right though about toilets. Easy enough for a bloke to point Percy at the pine
>> cones but females find outdoor weeing more of a problem.
>> We have a Thetford cassette loo in the caravan which is pretty much only used
>> for (as one of the caravan sales people put it) having a tinkle in the
>> night. Having once mistakenly booked a site with no facilities it's perfectly feasible to have
>> a poo in one but the tank emptying is much more involved.....
>>
Jeez - the process is exactly the same, the contents might be slightly more intimidating if you are squemish - though a lot of people prefer to use their own facilities even when on a campsite.
>> Even in a big tent once the kids were past 7 or 8 trying to
>> get them to settle while Mum and Dad were still up was an uphill battle.
>>
....which is why we bought our first campervan, and found it infinitely more easy than a tent..
>>
>> Another issue with van conversions is insulation and heating. We have 240 volt electrics >>and option of gas heating in caravan and it's thoroughly insulated; snug even when it's -5
>> outside. Trying to keep a Transit warm in winter without insulating sides and roof would
>> probably be impossible and would certainly cosy a chunk.
...any professional conversion is likely to be insulated (albeit with a "tin-tent" to a somewhat lower level than a caravan). Ive been down to -14 degrees in one, and in the last campervan to -11. The last one had 2KW of electric heating and 4KW of Gas heating, not that difficult to keep warm.
>>
>> We thought about a camper van before we bought our Xplore 304 caravan but decided
>> that packing everything up to go anywhere was going to be a PITA. Lost count
>> of times I'd left one kid with Mrs B setting up stuff while other went
>> with me in car to get bread etc. And we'd have to use camper as
>> second car - most are too high to go in car parks in town.
>>
I think this is a matter of motorhome/caravan prejudice. We find we have to pack very little if we want to move on (basically, turn the front seats round and we're off). We can also arrive and be off down the pub in 30 seconds - not that we do that, of course.....). TBF, we use a campervan/motorcaravan because we don't (generally) stay in one place for more than 2-3 days, and walk/cycle whilst we're there, but we don't find the lack of a separate vehicle a problem at all.
Chacun à son goût
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Wed 27 Mar 19 at 21:57
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Do you mean for yourself or as a way of making money? Because if the latter then I wouldn't bother.
If for yourself then you need to work out what sort of camping you're planning for and where. Many and varied are the possibilities. Long, short, day van, what facilities etc. etc.
As for the basics being simple, well the basics for most things are pretty simple, but that doesn't mean easy. The Heath Robinson ones are worth significantly less than the others.
All that said, if you get the right campervan for what you want to do, then they are brilliant. We had a big one in the UK and loved it. Not sure where all this "money pit" nonsense comes from, it depends what you buy.
Consider the difference in "money pittedness" between owning a Miata or an MGB; it's a similar discussion.
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There's a Facebook group called "Self Build CamperVans for Sale" which is exactly people taking vans and minibuses, converting them and then either using them or selling them.
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I have a real need for a camper van, it would get used possibly 20 out of 52 weekends annually, that number will go up year.
One would be on my drive in a heartbeat, except I don't have the space for the G31, the possibly arriving F20, and a camper. (well i do but it would be tight), which means storage fees.
It might still be an addition.
My professional rivals have their motorhomes fitted with kennels and sponsored by the dog food manufacturers
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I can see how for you and the mutt that would work out really well. Storing it is an issue; not just cost but you don't want to have to go far to get it every time.
No friendly farmers?
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>> No friendly farmers?
A misnomer surely?
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>> No friendly farmers?
>>
>A misnomer surely?
They do exist, though I take your point. Even the unfriendly ones can be bought.
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We investigated parking ours elsewhere, but it would add to the "I can't be **** factor" - leaving an expensive van in a farmer's barn/shed has a high risk of rodent attack. Nightmare in a van with complex electronics and plumbing
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Fortunately I had room for it, but it would certainly be a game changer if I couldn't have kept it handy. Security as much as anything else.
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....as a veteran of almost 30 years, it's not something you take up because it's cheap, but generally because it suits your life and holiday choices.
We started when the kids were very young, have travelled widely in the UK and Europe, and have only rarely thought about giving up. Whilst we enjoy holidays other than with the 'van, we always find ourselves more comfortable in its use.
Whilst real-time holiday costs can be low, the capital tied up in the vehicle, and the ongoing depreciation have a potentially significant effect on the overall costs. There are ways of minimising camping costs in the UK, but it is in touring Europe that things come into their own. We can find ourselves doing a 3-4 week trip in Europe at an average cost of around €5 per night, including electricity. (and staying in relatively attractive locations with easy access to places of interest). We are quite choosy about where, so this isn't slumming it.
The attraction for us is heightened by the fact that we like travelling and exploring, and it suits our habits of walking and cycling.
Insurance costs are generally lower than you might think (and also generally quite a bit lower than a caravan).
I would find it considerably less attractive if I couldn't park the 'van on my drive - all kinds of reasons, but the main one being we can be away (almost) at the drop of a hat.
Coming back to the core question, is it possible to do 'on the cheap'. Certainly, one can minimise depreciation if you are careful and buy wisely (a fact that Mark has drawn a parallel with certain cars) but you would really have to know what you are doing. Buy an "in-demand" name and it will depreciate more slowly than others. Buy a s/h "in demand" name at the right price, and you can absolutely minimise depreciation. Buy a "home conversion" and it is really a matter of "are you feeling lucky?". Some will have been absolutely lovingly crafted, but many will be junk, with little resale demand.
Building campervans and motorhomes is still more akin to a cottage industry, rather than smooth, production line manufacturing (even for the big makes). Things can and will go wrong, and it will cost money to fix them. A good breadth of DIY skills can mitigate that.
Depreciation in %ge terms on a new vehicle is well below that for a new car, but at the current prices for new campervans, it could still prove painful to those on a shoestring budget. It's factored into my financials, and the annual rate is worth it to me to keep up the lifestyle (though 80+ days a year use is probably more than most will manage).
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>>A good breadth of DIY skills can mitigate that.
Indeed. Though in my experience the majority of the requirement is on the "camper" part of the equation. The van is no more or less stable than any van. But water, heating, lighting, hinges, locks, brackets etc. etc. do tend to give you something to do.
If it suits you, and it doesn't suit everybody, it is a great style of holiday life.
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I was chatting to a German guy on the car deck of a ferry a couple of years ago. He was in front of me with his camper van and it was fantastic. It was a military truck converted into a camper and it was massive, I was surprised he wasn't with all the truckers. The door was on the back and the bottom of the door was at bonnet level of my SUV. That big. Six wheels and AWD, and still kept the military colours. I loved it. I had no interest in camper vans until I met this guy but if I was in the market for one, I'd do exactly what he did. A military truck/camper van conversion. And it's not uncommon, I've seen them at Polish campsites, too. I imagine he gets a lot of 'tutting'. Those with their expensive pretty campers with their trendy graphics down the side. 'How dare he park that monstrous thing near me'. Etc. etc.
I've seen websites of military vehicles being retired and sold off. A Land Rover ambulance would be perfect for me, that's where I'd start. Already wired up for some of the things you're going to need. Not quite as big as the German guy's camper, but you'd have to be doing something pretty daft to get it stuck somewhere.
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No, old son, *this* is what you need.....
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/183612518079
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It even comes with his built in MILF
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That is fantastic, just that kind of thing!
I've seen Nene Overland Land Rovers on auto trader. Usually the tent is on the roof-rack. That's a good way to start. Partly camping, partly camper van.
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I typed in Ex Military Ambulance and I got this straight away. Fabulous.
army-uk.com/equip.php?ID=271
I'm in love with it already.
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I know a bunch of guys who attend Le Mans with something very similar to this, but in British green.
www.aviation-museum.co.uk/login/uploaded/exhibits/ATC_caravan_small.jpg
Lots of love and money have gone into keeping it going, and just getting it down there every year takes many more hours (and gallons of fuel) than the rest of us.
Impressive though.
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Got to admire people like that.
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Three friends of mine have camper vans. A fourth had until recently.
Starting with the 4th. Two sub teen children, only one half decent income. He bought an old Fiat based camper, where the two young children slept over the cab. I think it cost £12/15k several years ago, they couldn’t afford foreign holidays, so invariably went to Scotland. It became a money pit. Welding due before every MOT, slow, noisy and a decent estate car with a good quality tent would have been better. I didn’t get the ‘end story ‘ but they no longer own it as the running repairs became too expensive.
Friends 1, 2 and 3 are all fairly young retired couples. Friend 1 takes it all over the UK and Europe....main hobby is cycling
Friends 2 & 3 are similar, but all action retired firemen.
Friend 2 made the mistake two years ago of buying a SWB Transporter. No toilet or shower. Nevertheless drove it down to the Costa Blanca from Yorkshire via Santander. No onboard facilities seriously limited the duration of their wild camping, but the small size of the VW allowed easy motoring on narrow mountain roads. 4 months ago they bought a larger camper, cost about £40k...same 14 week trip ( sailed ex Plymouth on Boxing Day)...more comfortable, and room inside for kayaks, paddle boards etc. Downside is the larger vehicle makes driving on mountain roads here on the Costa Blanca much more limiting as we discussed a few nights ago.
Friend 3 has a VW van type camper. It’s rammed full of mountain bikes, road bikes, paddle boards x2, climbing gear, wet suits, so they sleep in a tent or rent cheap accommodation a few weeks at a time. Drive down from Anglesey for about 12/14 weeks each winter.
It’s horses for courses. If I had a camper then I’d be off the beaten track, rarely on sites with hook ups etc.
Friend 2 has now left the CB heading home. They’ve sent photos of wild camping spots along the way via Madrid which look fabulous. They’re now spending several days in the Picos de Europa...amazing scenery, no English spoken, superb cycling,, parking for free in small villages.
IF you can use them to their full extent then the initial cost is soon recouped by accommodation savings, although friends 2 rented a villa for 7 weeks on the CB, spending the other 7 weeks of their trip in the van..mainly because there were 11 of us in 4 close accommodations so it was a great social scene with lots of outdoor activities, then meeting up for evening drinks, bbq’s etc
I’m happy to provide any further info
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And as all my friends have done, and mentioned above, get one you can park on the drive. Nothing immense ( for their lifestyles) as the need to negotiate minor roads is a must to get away from the main roads and into superb, quiet locations with amazing views as their photos show.
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Our Auto Trail was bought to park on the drive in our old place - there's a drone vid on here somewhere showing the layout of the driveway and the drive was exactly 21 foot in depth and the van we chose fitted perfectly.
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vimeo.com/187305988/7b121c8dca
The rear of the van can be seen at the left of the screen on the title screen. The van fitted perfectly to the right of the property. My old Beemer in the vid. Actually Mrs RP saw it yesterday in the next town to where we live
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Thread drift alert, but why, as a point of interest, do the vast majority of properties with ‘double’ garages not have a single 15’ sectional garage door fitted when built? On the estate where I live, built between 18 and 20 years ago, all the properties which have 20’ x 20’ garages are pairs of 7’ doors. Three of us have converted to 15’ or 16’ sectionals....so much more practical, especially if the angle of attack up a drive is slightly askew.
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Marketing I guess, easy to sell it as a double garage if it's got two doors.
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I would have preferred a large single door. I suppose if you analysed it (for my use) it was actually ideal to have two. We only regularly used one (the other was actually broken for a couple if not more years until it was fixed prior to sale) so it was less of a physical effort to open one small door rather than a very large one - especially in windy weather, and there was actual useful space for storage in between the two !
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With my two previous up n over electric 7’ garage doors I was liable to field mice scuttling in and making a winter nest. The installation of a 15’ insulated sectional, with a strong rubber rand on the base, has eliminated this problem and keeps the garage warmer.....obviously you don’t want it heated or too warm as that encourages the varmints.
I now park the car in the middle of the garage, with heavy duty racking down both sides, enabling easy access to garden8ng stuff, toys, diy gear etc. For me, the cost was worth every penny, and I enjoyed working with the builder for a few days doing the prep work pre door installation
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Ive had the reverse on a double roller powered door. A rat must have snuck in when the door was up and then got trapped inside. It chewed its way through the rubber bottom seal and squeezed out through what at best would have been a 1" gap.
Only issue was that the rubber strip carries an infra red beam as part of an emergency stop mechanism and it chewed the transmitter. £165 later all fixed. :(
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In your situation I'd be tempted to hire a camper van and see how you get on. You'd also get an idea of how to build one to suit you. Whatever you've gleaned from Autotrader, the retention of value usually applies to professional, badged conversions. Not saying you're unprofessional ...
I've believed for some time that a good way of destroying a vehicle is to leave it parked up outside. Some camper van owners do just that, inviting all sorts of gremlins to visit the electrics and electronics in the gap between each holiday season.
Good luck with the project and don't forget to tell the DVLA.
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As I mentioned further up, I have a genuine need for a camper van. It would get used, a lot, but for a very specific scenario, Weekends only at a site with some rudimentary toilet facilities, hot food available during the day.
Max distance from home, say 5 hours/250 miles. It needs to be parked at home, and I have at most a practical parking length of about 6 metres. Now while a Autosleeper like this
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201902054637050
Would just about possibly fit, and be very lovely, AND add the option of european / longer distance touring and wild camping, it is actually a bit too posh for my needs
I think what I need is a day van with a rock and roll bed.
Loads of choices there, based on imported japanese Mazda Bongos, Nissan Elgrands, or a Toyota Granvia
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201903135861470
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It depends what facilities you're looking for and how much comfort, where you will use them and, of course, how much money you want to spend.
Personally I like the Sprinter conversions. You can get them with toilets, showers and decent beds, two of which I would regard as 100% essential; I can manage without a shower for the weekend but I dislike public toilets with a vengeance. Sprinters have that bit more room for carrying stuff as well.
Rock and roll beds are rarely very comfortable, but it depends how you sleep. The difference between possible and pleasant I'd say.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 27 Mar 19 at 12:02
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I don't know I'd buy that just for your doggie weekends. But if you are even slightly into the idea of European holidays, then look at the ones based on a Fiat Ducato.
They're the ones I like and their "garages" would give the dog and equipment all the room you could want. They also frequently have permanent beds, which I like.
If you felt that LHD was going to work for you, then they're often cheaper on the continent, Germany say, though Brexit will perhaps screw you over a bit.
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>> If you felt that LHD was going to work for you, then they're often cheaper
>> on the continent, Germany say, though Brexit will perhaps screw you over a bit.
Brexit is going to throw a big spanner in the dog passport scheme.
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>> I don't know I'd buy that just for your doggie weekends. But if you are
>> even slightly into the idea of European holidays, then look at the ones based on
>> a Fiat Ducato.......
...difficult to choose for other people, but if Z wanted a vehicle for his "doggingy" outings and also something that would make a fist of wider use, including continental journeys then, given other stated constraints a professional panel-van conversion on a 6m LWB Ducato would work quite well.
BUT, in common with many forms of British-built motorcaravans of all types, the UK layout would generally not be the best fit. (they are largely oriented to internal "lounging", and exclude provision of storage into which you can just bundle stuff easily - not good for those who need to carry and use lots of outdoor equipment on their travels).
The Ducato has less "tumblehome" than a Sprinter and is therefore more spacious inside for the same road width (and it is noticeable), hence, a continental 6m Ducato conversion (quite easily available in RHD, but the side sliding door will normally be wrong-handed, as they don't bother building the interior for a completely reversed 'van) would be my first suggestion.
This largely because it is possible to buy a number of such conversions with a raised rear transverse bed, which leaves a decent amount of storage space underneath isolated from the rest of the 'van, and easily accessible from the outside via the rear doors. Great for chucking outdoor/wet/muddy etc. stuff out of the way. It's a layout largely shunned by UK converters, however.
It'll only work if you're not over 6ft tall (the practical limit for transverse sleeping in a Ducato - over that the 6.36m XLWB ducato with twin longitudinal beds over the "boot space" is better).
You can just about nicely squeeze enough for reasonably extended living into a 6m 'van in this way, with cooker, fridge, loo, shower, etc all perfectly usable.
A number of continental converters do such layouts, my experience is the Globecar generally have the best thought-out solutions and build quality. The following is an example (there are other models) at the sort of price point Z used for the Autosleeper.
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2018-GLOBECAR-GLOBESCOUT-ELEGANCE/173657499582
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Wed 27 Mar 19 at 16:59
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For £45k I'd want the full thing, not a Sprinter make-do.
To me Sprinters make sense for Zero's doggie trips, but not for much more than that, and so at the £10k mark.
There are some superb larger Ducatos around, one of which I shall buy soon. Next year probably. I'd like to get similar to last time, which had twin rear axles and so was very stable.
Within the UK, there are increasing restrictions on where you can park campervans, other than on campsites. Converted Sprinters do not look like campervans.
Europe is much kinder.
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>My professional rivals turn up in stuff like this
That's looks like what my (ex) neighbour had. b***** huge thing that blocked the whole of our little close when he brought the thing home before and after one of his trips. He had a part-time business selling model cars so he used it for visiting car shows/autojumbles at weekends. He dragged a Fiat 500 behind it on an A-frame.
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>> >My professional rivals turn up in stuff like this
>>
RS Motorhomes have an "interesting" history.
Not my taste, but I'd be very wary......
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Wed 27 Mar 19 at 19:38
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>> them and, of course, how much money you want to spend.
Spend is measured in travelodge nights. My 2018 spend was a meagre 400 quid. My 2019 spend will be about 1k, 2020 spend possible more. The addition of a motorhome allows me to meet two roles at weekend shows, compete one day, and judge on the other day, knowing the dog is safe.
Keeping the dog cool is a increasingly difficult issue
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 27 Mar 19 at 12:21
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Then I'd go back to £10k worth of Sprinter conversion.
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>> Then I'd go back to £10k worth of Sprinter conversion.
Its a possibility, its money i can easily burn with no issue
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Not necessarily this one, I haven't looked carefully at it, but this is the sort of thing you'd be looking at.
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201903266295361?modal=photos
There are infinite varieties of internal layouts though.,
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>> Fine chassis as well.
A million fast lane white van men cant be wrong
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I am sure I mentioned this at the time - summer 2017.
In holiday in Bulgaria and met an Englishman who was renovating and rebuilding a home from scratch.
Turned out he previously built motorhomes and this was his design and company
www.chameleonmotorhomes.co.uk/
He had this exact van, the silver one, out there with him sitting unused, with the weeds up over the axles. A fabulous design, especially the rear door area and this was based on a Sprinter.
I really laboured the point with him about I would take it off his hands and put it to good use etc but he wasn't for agreeing to it!
So sad that it is just sitting there rotting away.
My indie mechanic is currently in process of converting a VW Crafter van - not to full motorhome but enough that him and his wife can go away for overnights and to car shows and be comfy.
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As Hawkeye says - make sure you tell the DVLA about the change in class of a converted van otherwise van tax and crossing charges will apply as well as van speed limits. I know of a few converted camper owners that have been caught out.
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Camper Vans - money pits or not? - smokie
