Motoring Discussion > Ulez extra charges Legal Questions
Thread Author: wotspur Replies: 41

 Ulez extra charges - wotspur
So Citizens Khans extra charges come into force on 8th April 2019
As one who doesn’t live in London , and therefore like 5m+ COMMUTERS we can’t vote for the Mayor , but we will have to pay .
Does anyone know if this was part of his election manifesto ?? If not how has he implemented it .
We know it starts for the Congestion Zone , and then another 5 years , it’ll be the to include north and south circular , then to the M 25.
Iknownow that should I have to go into central London it’s gonna cost me 12.50 CC and 12.50 ULEZ , I can’t pass £25 on to my clients , so I’ll lose those clients , it doesn’t seem fair
 Ulez extra charges - Lygonos
Or get a low emission vehicle so Londoners aren't breathing the tailpipe filth?
 Ulez extra charges - Bromptonaut
>> Does anyone know if this was part of his election manifesto ?? If not how
>> has he implemented it .

Pretty sure it was in his manifesto. In any event it's a point of consensus; original proposal dates back to BoJo's time as Mayor:

www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/ultra-low-emission-zones/

For all Wotspur's frustrations I think the need is incontrovertible; people cannot be expected to go on breathing NoX and other filth. My son, who has asthma and eczema, complains about both conditions flaring up in Central London.

Aside from Lygonos's suggestion of a low emission vehicle London has excellent public transport. Unless, like Runfer, you need a car for your professional kit there's really no excuse for taking one into the CC zone.

As you might expect I'd also advance the case for using a bike. OK, a Brompton is too pricey for an occasional user but the Boris Bikes are easy to ride, cheap as chips and available everywhere.
 Ulez extra charges - sooty123
> We know it starts for the Congestion Zone , and then another 5 years ,
>> it’ll be the to include north and south circular , then to the M 25.

How far out can the mayor extend the zone, aren't parts of the M25 outside of London?

Use the train if you need to go, I've been twice into London this year. Straight forward by train and tube, not too bad price wise either.
 Ulez extra charges - Zero

>> How far out can the mayor extend the zone, aren't parts of the M25 outside
>> of London?

Large parts of the M25 are outside the LA authority (specially in surrey) where he has no jurisdiction, so it cant be used as a border.
 Ulez extra charges - sooty123
That's what I thought. I guess the limit is the outer boundaries of London councils.
 Ulez extra charges - wotspur
I would love to be able to buy an AFFORDABLE electric vehicle , but as I managed to just about afford my 2nd hand car , in the Feb 2017 , before Khan election and UlEz proposal I can’t afford to buy another one , also do they make electric people carriers or vans yet ??
I have so much equipment when I Need to go into London , thankfully I rarely have to go into the Congesrion zone 4-10 times most years . But if it goes to the NCR and SCR , I’d be screwed .
The,problem with London , is those who can vote , ie Londoners , can use public transport for most things , but the 7m who go into London daily we don’t get to vote , just have to suffer the consequences .
On the 40 odd times I go to London for Pleasure , I never drive
 Ulez extra charges - VxFan
>> do they make electric people carriers or vans yet ??

www.autoexpress.co.uk/vans/105891/best-electric-vans-2019

www.buyacar.co.uk/vans/702/best-electric-vans
 Ulez extra charges - wotspur
Thanks for this , most seem to be coming out later this year or next , useful when it comes into place in the next week.
And at 30-106 miles range , it would be futile to” invest” 15-30k on a car and have to spend hours charging in between appointments .
Being silly , these electric cars , the electricity has to be generated by some form of fuels , that create CO2’s ,,so is it really going to be any benefits . To me I just see Anither tax
 Ulez extra charges - Bromptonaut
>> Being silly , these electric cars , the electricity has to be generated by some
>> form of fuels , that create CO2’s ,,so is it really going to be any
>> benefits

The ULEZ is about NOx and particulates rather than CO2. NOx breaks down reasonably quickly in sunlight and moving air but the volume of pollutants in urban areas overwhelms the process.

As of right now 52% of energy is coming from CO2 generating gas or coal. Rest is renewable, solar/wind, biomass and nuclear.
 Ulez extra charges - Lygonos
See a fair number of eNV200 vans near me - 110-140miles range with the bigger 40kWh battery and the benefit in town/city with EVs is they are more efficient (whereas less efficient at highway speeds).

>>the electricity has to be generated by some form of fuels , that create CO2's

To some extent, although it is hard to make diesel with wind turbines, solar arrays and nuclear power stations.

The best way to reduce CO2 emissions is not to make the journey (and not have children, and not eat meat, etc) - EVs best attribute is reduction of pollutants in urban areas.
 Ulez extra charges - Bromptonaut
It's futile to blame Khan for this but in any event he was elected in 2016; before you bought your vehicle. As I said previously the proposal was already live during the Johnson mayoralty. Under Khan it was brought forward from 2022 to this year. The vast majority of the 7 million commuters (I've no idea if that's an accurate count of those coming in from outside the GLA area) make their journey by public transport.

The ULEZ not a matter of choice still less 'political correctness' or 'virtue signalling'. The 'dirty diesels' timeline in the RAC link I posted above makes it crystal clear that the Supreme Court has ruled that clean air standards are simply not being met and that the biggest contributor was diesel exhaust. Yes there are others, wood burning stoves are frequently fingered - action on them will follow. We simply cannot expect London's residents and workers to go on breathing poisoned air.

In order to comply a vehicle doesn't need to be electric or hybrid. Petrol vehicles meeting Euro 4 - most post 2005 - and for diesels Euro 6 - post 09/2015 meet the required standard:

tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/cars?intcmp=54362

I think that information was probably in the public domain by 2017.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 2 Apr 19 at 10:25
 Ulez extra charges - sooty123
> rarely have to go into the Congesrion zone 4-10 times most years .

On the 40 odd times I go to London for Pleasure , I never drive
>>
>>

Sounds like the system is working, 90% of your journeys are by public transport.
 Ulez extra charges - wotspur
Not really Sooty , WHen I go into London It’s for pleasure and I don’t need my work equipment .
Years ago , I was stopped in a traffic survey in Kingston , and asked typical questions
Where do you live , where have you been , where are you going etc
Weybridge, Sutton , Wimbledon and now going to Richmond .
Could you have done that by using public transport ?
Yes I could , if I had 2 days to get there , because each journey it wou,d take 10 minutes to load everything up and unload , and when they looked in the back , they understood it wouldn’t be possible .
I prefer the train , esp at weekends , cause I have to drive for a living , to see my clients
 Ulez extra charges - Runfer D'Hills
I have the con charge linked to my credit card. Works out cheaper and there's no chance of forgetting to pay. Fortunately, my car doesn't incur the new emissions charge.
 Ulez extra charges - sooty123
>> Not really Sooty ,

looks like it is to me, you only travel in a van when absolutely necessary. That's the idea.
 Ulez extra charges - henry k
>>...I guess the limit is the outer boundaries of London councils.
>>

tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/cars?intcmp=54362

ULEZ boundary expansion
From October 2021 the ULEZ will expand to the North and South Circular Roads.
All cars within the expanded zone will need to meet the ULEZ emissions standards or pay a daily charge.
 Ulez extra charges - henry k
>> >> How far out can the mayor extend the zone, aren't parts of the M25 outside of London?
>>
>> Large parts of the M25 are outside the LA authority (specially in surrey)
>> where he has no jurisdiction, so it cant be used as a border.
>>
Another half baked scheme ?
As soon as it extends it will create " rat runs" to avoid entering LA to get to the M25 etc
Maybe just maybe main access routes like those used when the Surrey bike run is happening could be exempt.

Public transport is fine but if my daughter is called in outside hours then the car is a must for speed and safety. Oh hang on, her old perfectly good mechanically petrol Yaris will be hammered.
Scrap another good car or flog it away from London and buy another one ?
 Ulez extra charges - CGNorwich

>> Iknownow that should I have to go into central London it’s gonna cost me 12.50
>> CC and 12.50 ULEZ , I can’t pass £25 on to my clients , so
>> I’ll lose those clients , it doesn’t seem fair
>>

Well I guess all your competitors will pass on the charge so it’s a level playing field. I think we all have to face up to the very real effects of urban pollution and the principle of the polluter pays seems fair enough to me.
 Ulez extra charges - Dulwich Estate II
I live within the North / South Circular exclusion zone. I learned that as well as paying extra to use the congestion zone next week I would, within a couple of years, be compelled to pay £12.50 per day just to keep my car parked outside my house. There is no discount for residents.

Last month I sold my non compliant 6 year old diesel car and now have a fully compliant (for now) petrol one.
 Ulez extra charges - Bromptonaut
Starts tomorrow:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/apr/06/london-prepares-for-launch-of-ultra-low-emissions-zone
 Ulez extra charges - Runfer D'Hills
I parked for 3 hours in a parking bay just off Old St (EC1) yesterday, one of those where you have to ring a number to pay. £14.00 plus another £9.00 for an "environmental surcharge" or something. Add that to the con charge I also had to pay, and you're looking at nigh on £35.00 to park and take bulky kit into one meeting. Plus diesel for a 340 mile round trip and two lots of M6 toll. Say, another £60.00, so about £95.00 all up.

Not sure if the meeting went well yet, but I blinking hope so !

Glad my car is ok on the new emissions thingy.
 Ulez extra charges - Duncan
>>
>> Glad my car is ok on the new emissions thingy.
>>

Are you absolutely sure?
 Ulez extra charges - Runfer D'Hills
Yes, you can check. Go on the website as if you were going to pay the con charge and there's a section where you can enter your reg number to see if your car is chargeable for the ULEZ.

Mine isn't.
 Ulez extra charges - smokie
Here, tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/vrm-checker-ulez just in case, like me, you don't have to pay the congestion charge :-)
 Ulez extra charges - Duncan
tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/vrm-checker-ulez

It says my 08 diesel is not subject. This must be wrong, surely?
 Ulez extra charges - smokie
Depends what it's Euro rating is. This page says diesels usually manufactured after Sept 2015 are OK

tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/cars?intcmp=54362

So maybe you are just lucky.
 Ulez extra charges - Roger.
Once agin the attack on the poorest members of society continues, with Birmingham introducing punitive "low emission" charges, with other cities due to follow.

 Ulez extra charges - CGNorwich
The poor are a actually those who suffer most from vehicle pollution in inner cities. You have a free bus pass. Use that.
 Ulez extra charges - zippy
>> The poor are a actually those who suffer most from vehicle pollution in inner cities.
>> You have a free bus pass. Use that.
>>

Got to agree with CGN on this.

It's a bitter pill that has to be suffered for the health of the population. If these changes and others over the last 60 or so years were not made we would still have black, soot covered buildings in London, lead in petrol and dreadful smog and a lot more people dying each year.
 Ulez extra charges - Bromptonaut
>> Once agin the attack on the poorest members of society continues, with Birmingham introducing punitive
>> "low emission" charges, with other cities due to follow.

What's your answer to urban pollution Roger?

How do we stop deaths like this?:

www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/08/toxic-air-mother-of-girl-who-died-from-asthma-calls-on-politicians-to-be-braver

Surely you cannot deny the science?
 Ulez extra charges - smokie
To be fair, I'm not sure he is denying it but, unlike most members here, many people do not like paying additional tax even when there is justification, and will dress up their resistance in a variety of different ways.
 Ulez extra charges - Bromptonaut
>> To be fair, I'm not sure he is denying it but, unlike most members here,
>> many people do not like paying additional tax even when there is justification, and will
>> dress up their resistance in a variety of different ways.

It was the placing of emission charges in parentheses that made me wonder.

Been in CC/ULEZ area today. On the bike not the car. Seemed quieter than usual but it's school hols too.
 Ulez extra charges - Zero

>> Surely you cannot deny the science?

Hes a Trump admirer, so yes science and fact denial is a given.
 Ulez extra charges - Zero
>>
>> >> Surely you cannot deny the science?
>>
>> Hes a Trump admirer, so yes science and fact denial is a given.

The latest and greatest trumpism is that the noise from wind turbines gives you cancer, so we need to mine and burn more safe coal.
 Ulez extra charges - Zero
>> Once agin the attack on the poorest members of society continues, with Birmingham introducing punitive
>> "low emission" charges, with other cities due to follow.

The poorest members of society don't have cars, and dont travel to the centre of Birmingham to work because the car parking charges are punitive.
 Ulez extra charges - Runfer D'Hills
By way of nothing much, my wife's 11 year old Qashqai and my son's 9 year old Aygo are not subject to the ULEZ charges. Neither of those cars would cost a great deal to buy. I think it's more about older diesels isn't it?
 Ulez extra charges - bathtub tom
Someone on the news at lunchtime complaining it's cost him thirty grand for a new van, so let's do the maths:
Assume he works six days a week, that's 50x6 days a year (assume he has at least a fortnight off)=300x£12.50=£3750. That's eight years.
So he could have continued using his old van for eight years, by which time probably only electric ones will be allowed.
 Ulez extra charges - henry k
>> By way of nothing much, my wife's 11 year old Qashqai and my son's 9
>> year old Aygo are not subject to the ULEZ charges.
>> I think it's more about older diesels isn't it?
>>
www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/how_toxic_is_your_car_exhaust
Publication date 17 October 2017

A bit wordy but Qashqais do get mentioned near the end of the item. :-(

 Ulez extra charges How does London compare - Zero
www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-47816360
 Ulez extra charges - PeterS
>> By way of nothing much, my wife's 11 year old Qashqai and my son's 9
>> year old Aygo are not subject to the ULEZ charges. Neither of those cars would
>> cost a great deal to buy. I think it's more about older diesels isn't it?
>>

Given that my 27 mpg petrol engined car (2016) is also exempt, and I can’t imagine it’s emissions on any rational scale are ‘ultra low’, it has to be targeted at diesels!!
 Ulez extra charges - Bromptonaut
>> Given that my 27 mpg petrol engined car (2016) is also exempt, and I can’t
>> imagine it’s emissions on any rational scale are ‘ultra low’, it has to be targeted
>> at diesels!!

The main target is NoX which is largely a diesel issue. Some pre 2005 petrol cars are affected.
Latest Forum Posts